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I've been stopped and scolded by "concerned citizens" before (even recently) for going on runs/hikes without wearing a mask... I tried to explain how outdoors m

by umvi 6y ago

I've been stopped and scolded by "concerned citizens" before (even recently) for going on runs/hikes without wearing a mask... I tried to explain how outdoors masks are only really necessary where social distancing isn't possible and crowd density is high but they seemed to think I was just an anti-masker. At least now I can point to an actual study, for whatever good it will do...

strogonoff 6y ago
I saw a video where a person, walking alone on an apparently empty sidewalk, is not scolded but harassed for not wearing a mask (there is a mask, just not worn). The harasser was the one proudly filming their heroic act. (Addendum: there’s the obvious question, why not just wear a mask 100% of the time? There are no downsides, right? — There can be. Perhaps my mask had been in use for a while, I suspect it’s gotten dirty enough to be a potential health hazard, but I don’t have another mask to replace it? I’d still use it if people are around, but would try to reduce my exposure to it otherwise. Maybe I have asthma or some type of breathing difficulty, and wearing a mask makes it worse? I think those two are probably among the most common reasons.)
- deadmutex 6y ago
  This seems like it risks having an opposite effect.
- pan69 6y ago
  > The harasser was the one proudly filming their heroic act. This behavior seems to be part of Call Out Culture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e9VYf9FKHo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e9VYf9FKHo
  - jhardy54 6y ago
    For anyone interested in 'cancel culture' sans the reactionary right-wing propaganda: https://youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8 https://youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      What is "reactionary right-wing propaganda" about Jonathan Haidt [1]? That's a completely unfounded assertion. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt
      - spion 6y ago
        That's why "sans" was there.
        sebmellen 6y ago
        Perhaps English is your second language (given your German username?) — "sans" means without. Thus the comment was implying that the ContraPoints video was "without" the implied "right-wing propaganda" in the Jonathan Haidt / Joe Rogan video.
        spion 6y ago
        Indeed its my second language, but I did get the meaning of sans right. Unfortunately I got mixed up with the two youtube links instead :)
- winphone1974 6y ago
  How about the downside of normalizing wearing a mask? These are not normal times and this is not the new normal; I want everyone to wear a mask because it must be done not because we should permanently condition ourselves that this is how we now live.
  - strogonoff 6y ago
    I think the downside of not wearing a mask is, in fact, normalising not wearing a mask in the eyes of people who do not take into account that it’s not worn for a reason and because there is no one near me. Thus I try to put mask on when I see someone on the street even if they are far away. I think not wearing masks again will be easy to normalise. For example, Hong Kong got hit by the first SARS and everyone wore a mask for a time, and then when it was over all was back to normal and masks quickly became rare.
    - markkanof 6y ago
      I hope you are right, but I'm not convinced. Covid isn't just going to go away like switching off a light switch. A good number of people have gone way off the deep end with regard to "being safe". I'm not sure they will be able to reason about when the risk is low enough to be able to stop wearing a mask.
      - pjc50 6y ago
        Some countries are now at nearly zero cases.
      - strogonoff 6y ago
        I believe once vaccines and better treatment are generally available and proven effective, it will be a cue to very quickly abandon excess caution for most people, even those who have gone to the extreme. Larger countries (including the US) that are more sparsely populated and tend to rely on central messaging from authorities less will probably have areas that are slower at adopting new measures (or lack thereof), which may be frustrating, but I imagine large cities will be able to react promptly.
- parliament32 6y ago
  WHO explicitly recommends against wearing masks while exercising: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters#exercising https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2... >FACT: People should NOT wear masks while exercising >People should NOT wear masks when exercising, as masks may reduce the ability to breathe comfortably. >Sweat can make the mask become wet more quickly which makes it difficult to breathe and promotes the growth of microorganisms. The important preventive measure during exercise is to maintain physical distance of at least one meter from others.
deadmutex 6y ago
Typically, the best practice is to wait for results from multiple studies, and have them confirm the same conclusion. Otherwise, there is a risk it being a fluke or having some other bias in the data (e.g. environmental humidity, etc.) Personally these days, for outdoors, I use the following algorithm: 1. Over 6 feet away from people: Wear a mask below the nose (so I can have it ready for state #2 below, when needed). 2. Under 6 feet away from someone (even if just passing them by): Wear a mask properly (i.e. over the mouth AND nose). Edit: Formatting.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  What is the point of wearing the mask below the nose? I find that the only reason to not wear a mask is discomfort from heat and sweat. Wearing a mask, but wrong, doesn't help that. As for my personal set of rules: if I can distance 12 feet I don't wear one. If I am frequently passing people (on sidewalks or trails) I keep it on. If it is fairly empty and I pass someone every once in a while, I keep the mask in my hand and breath through it when I pass someone.
  - deadmutex 6y ago
    Why wear mask below nose when I am far away from everyone? Why not just take it off? I want to have easy access to move it up when needed. I am typically just walking and the weather is cool these days, so I do not experience sweating. Also since the hot air is not exhaled directly into the mask, it prevents/slows down the heating of the mask. Why not wear it fully? I find it easier sometimes to breathe without a mask. So, when it is safe to do so, I lower it.
SllX 6y ago
> for whatever good it will do... None at all. I’ve taken to getting my daily exercise in the early morning and late evening just to avoid talking to/arguing with my neighbors/the busybody brigade. The fact that I walk well out into the street when there aren’t any cars keeping roughly 15 to 30 feet from just about anyone and line of sight on everyone around me does not change this.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  > just to avoid talking to/arguing with my neighbors/the busybody brigade You're right that avoidance is the best bet here, for the time being. These are people that have been manipulated and fixed with beliefs inserted into their reptile brain. This is not the neocortex speaking - arguing on the basis of reason (pointing to a study) will not convince them that a mask is unnecessary away from people, in a field or outdoors. They must be engaged in the same way they were manipulated - by appealing to emotion. It's a tough nut to crack.
  - SllX 6y ago
    Unfortunately you’ve hit the mark. We just have to pick our battles.
GiorgioG 6y ago
> masks are only really necessary where social distancing isn't possible All well and good as long as everyone buys into social distancing. Unfortunately plenty of people believe in neither masks nor social distancing, so you can't trust that people (strangers in the same vicinity) will stay 6ft apart.
- knaq 6y ago
  There is no magic "6ft apart". It's just the maximum that seemed reasonable to demand. It's about the width of a supermarket aisle or a typical business hallway. Metric countries surely don't use that distance. Nothing is said about length of exposure or ventilation quality either.
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    There is no such thing as a perfectly safe distance but there is a "you're really risking common spread in most situations if less than" and that's where the 6 feet/ 2 meter number somes from and why it's relevant not because the virus counts out 6 feet and drops dead. I don't think anyone here is claiming that by referencing it either and you always want more distance if it's reasonably possible.
    - markkanof 6y ago
      The Netherlands and maybe other European countries use 1.5 meters (~ 5 feet) as their guideline.
    - lutorm 6y ago
      I believe there are several qualifiers on that number, though. For example, the CDC "close contact" guidelines say that a close contact is "someone who was within 6 feet of an infected person for a cumulative total of 15 minutes or more over a 24-hour period". Passing someone on a sidewalk means you're within 6 feet for maybe 5 seconds, which would constitude about 0.5% of such a "close contact" exposure. They also say that several factors with insufficient data mean that it's unclear how things like ventilation, indoor vs outdoor, mask vs no mask, etc, affect the exposure assessment. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/contact-tracing/contact-tracing-plan/appendix.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/contact-tracin...
ssully 6y ago
While I believe this study will be proven over time, it is just one study. Since it's getting colder I am keep most of my exercising inside, but when over the summer I masked up when doing outdoor activities just to be safe for myself, and to make others feel better.
- wasyl 6y ago
  It's definitely not the first study, I've seen at least 2 or 3 other since March (no links though, sorry). Also the only study that suggested the opposite was a simulation that I think wasn't even peer-reviewed.
- 18pfsmt 6y ago
  Here is an aggregation of studies that come to various conclusions regarding masks. https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/ https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/ Here is an article from July about mask usage in Europe. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/08/face-off-over-face-masks-europes-latest-north-south-split https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/08/face-off...
  - ghaff 6y ago
    re: The Economist. "Mask wearing" attitudes in general don't mean much in the context of people who are looking for 100% wearing once you step out of your own door. There are a lot of places that are very compliant indoors, and relatively so outdoors in crowded areas, but not where they're mostly distanced outdoors. To many people, that looks fine. To others, it's horrible.
C19is20 6y ago
I cycle (hard!), I wear a mask. People I pass wear a mask. Jeez, people -wear a mask. It can't be that difficult...to breathe heavily, or contain such, far from others?
- cj 6y ago
  > I cycle (hard!), I wear a mask. People I pass wear a mask. Jeez, people -wear a mask I'm all for wearing masks and I do it. But not when road biking where I very rarely (1 in 20 rides) come within 20 feet of a human being, other than people driving by me at 55 mph. I also don't wear a mask when running, for the same reason. Maybe if you're running / biking on the sidewalks of NYC, then sure, wear a mask! But on an empty country road outside of major cities?
  - CameronNemo 6y ago
    Yeah it is definitely about context. I live in a suburban area. For most of my bike rides I can bike in the street and get 12+ ft if distance. But every once in a while I have to go in a bike lane or on the sidewalk and then I wear my mask. I know the chances of transmission between me riding my bike and a pedestrian are low, but it feels easy to be cautious.
  - Baeocystin 6y ago
    One thing I've learned through all of this is that my allergies are a lot better when I wear a mask while exercising outside. So yeah, I wear one every time. FWIW.
    - nimih 6y ago
      I've noticed this as well, and will probably continue to wear a mask of some sort during hay-fever season once the pandemic is over.
  - winphone1974 6y ago
    The entire idea of this suspended river of particulate over trails is just ridiculous. As contagious as this disease is, what do people think the odds are they will catch it from their 5 second, 10 foot interaction? If you harass someone on a bike path who wears a mask in their regular social activities all you do is (1) not focus on the real challenge and (2) frustrate and discourage someone who's on the same team
mariodiana 6y ago
The other day I was driving down one of the major streets in Poughkeepsie, NY. There was an old woman sitting by herself on her front stoop, wearing a mask. The sidewalk was maybe 12 or 15 feet away, and there was no one out walking. Best of luck pointing to the actual study. Are you going to print it out and carry it with you? Please understand, I'm not criticizing you -- except to maybe point out that you place an awful lot of unfounded faith in your fellow human beings.
- thenewwazoo 6y ago
  I do as that woman does for one reason: to socialize the normalcy of mask-wearing. It is as much a political statement as anything else, too. Wearing masks should be the norm, not the exception, and wearing one any time I'm in public reinforces that.
  - fauigerzigerk 6y ago
    But if wearing a mask becomes a political statement there's bound to be a political statement to the contrary from the other side. I don't think that's a game we should play. Let's just follow the science where possible.
    - spion 6y ago
      Agreed. Although sometimes its easier not to fiddle with the mask taking it off and on again, especially if one doesn't have easy access to hand hygiene
    - andrewjl 6y ago
      Risk probabilities also need to be taken into account. The science on mask wearing did change and it's possible it may change again if the virus evolves in the near future. What won't change is the risk profile of wearing vs not wearing a mask. Wearing a mask despite necessity is an inconvenience, but unlikely to result in harm. Not wearing mask, even if current science says is safe to do so, is still exposure to potential harm that may have been unforeseen. For instance a transmission vector that is not yet a well characterized one. This is why I personally take a dim view to these sorts "following the science" arguments.
chiefalchemist 6y ago
If you don't have Covid then the only way to get Covid is to be exposed to someone who is contagious. I know that's stating the obvious. The point is, if you're outside and with no one but yourself, and not close to anyone else, there's no risk. A passing squirrel or a bird is not going to infect anyone. People walking solo in open spaces with masks on - which I see a couple times per week on my morning run - perpetuates a scientifically false narrative. I'm not going to object. If that makes them comfortable. But it's also a false sense of comfort. I'm not sure that's a good thing.
- laurent92 6y ago
  Mask is mandatory outdoors all the time in the big cities in France. Sometimes I think it’s just the government taking revenge for when we mocked them for not being able to procure masks — having destroyed their stock of 1 billion masks a year before the pandemic. “You want mask? Ok, wear them now. Who feels stupid now?”
  - chiefalchemist 6y ago
    France's is a different dynamic. After the yellow vests events certainly the gov wants to reestablish it's place. That aside, I'm not in a big city. I'm in the suburbs. I'm talking about the local park and such. My morning run is through a local small university, currently closed. I see more deer than people some mornings. In that context, I've seen people from a distance walking alone with a mask on. It's 8 am. No one else around. There's no scientific reason for a mask. I believe masks are important. They are essential. But that's no justification for unnecessary masks. In fact, we should be conserving masks. Not wearing them when they're not necessary.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > If you don't have Covid That's a big "if". When's the last time you were tested? Because that's the actual reason to wear a mask. Preventing yourself from getting infected is less relevant than preventing yourself from infecting others. > A passing squirrel or a bird is not going to infect anyone. I don't know about those two animals specifically, but it is very much possible for COVID to spread via animals (that is, indeed, in all likelihood how the COVID pandemic started in the first place). > People walking solo in open spaces with masks on - which I see a couple times per week on my morning run - perpetuates a scientifically false narrative. No, it perpetuates a narrative of "it's better to be safe than sorry", which is about as scientific of a narrative as it gets when it comes to infectious diseases. I wear my mask when out walking or hiking specifically because I don't trust others to keep their distance, and because I care more about the possibility that I might inadvertently spread COVID to someone who'd die from it than I do about messing up my beard with a mask.
kube-system 6y ago
These people most likely did not arrive to their conclusions by reading studies themselves, and likely aren't going to be persuaded differently by one. Most people gain their understandings of best public health practices from the statements of authorities they trust. Unfortunately, a lot of nuance is lost when people get their information second, third, or fourth-hand.
dustinmoris 6y ago
Good for you. Fortunately where I live mask wearing is not a political statement and therefore people use common sense and their brain to evaluate when and where to wear a mask and everything is very relaxed and fluid. When mask wearing becomes a political symbol then all logic is out of the window and you get crazy mental ideologists on both sides destroying it for everyone. We should make a list of all those people on both sides and maybe one day that list might become useful lol.
- GiorgioG 6y ago
  It's mind-boggling to me that people act so irrationally. Maybe one won't get very ill if they are infected with Covid-19. But it's also possible that they'll inadvertently pass it on to others who may become gravely ill (or worse.) What does it cost you to wear a mask? It's uncomfortable and annoying - I agree! If we make mask-wearing complicated (over nose, under nose, under the chin!) people will just do the most comfortable thing and it'll wind up being completely ineffective. The coronavirus doesn't care if you are republican or democrat. Simple rule: wear a mask when there's other people around - your life may not depend on it, but your or someone else's grandmother's might. If a vaccine is truly around the corner, we can actually cause some people not to die by wearing masks. There's just no good reason to be this selfish, prolonging this nightmare in the process.
dheera 6y ago
The problem is when you pass other people on the trail and it's not possible to maintain a proper physical distance in passing. Also, people seem to think the virus magically stops at an invisible 6 foot distance whereas in reality you need much more if you're breathing and running where you leave a much bigger trail of aerosolized particles as you run, and there's also wind carrying your breath much further than in a still situation. I do take mask off for hikes when nobody is in sight but I always put it on when I see people are about to pass. What's annoying is people who don't put their mask on to pass you and don't stop and wait for both sides to have mask on before passing. I've been forced multiple times to abruptly stop and backtrack my steps to maintain distance while fiddling my mask on because the other person kept pressing forward impatiently.
- themark 6y ago
  I have started to just hold my breath while passing people on a trail. Problem solved?
  - core-questions 6y ago
    Implying there was a problem to begin with. Where's the evidence of people catching this from 2 seconds spent next to someone else while walking nearby outdoors in opposite directions? You think that somehow that's not OK, but sitting 6 feet from someone indoors is?
    - dheera 6y ago
      (a) I don't sit 6 feet from someone indoors either. (b) The problem is we don't know, and I'm in a risk group, so I don't want to take chances until something is proven to be safe.
  - dustinmoris 6y ago
    Is this sarcasm or are you suffering from anxiety?
  - dheera 6y ago
    It's really hard for me to hold my breath going uphill, and also there's a huge wafting trail of aerosolized particles for 20+ feet behind other runners, so if I'm walking and they're running I'd have to hold my breath for longer than I can. Have you seen the simulations?
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
>I tried to explain how outdoors masks are only really necessary where social distancing isn't possible How close did these people get to you when trying to express their concern?
jancsika 6y ago
> I tried to explain ... which is why I simply wear a mask while hiking. :)
ummonk 6y ago
It doesn't matter what your understanding of the science is. By passing other people without having a mask you pull up, you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors. That's extremely obnoxious behavior, even though you're likely right on the low risks of transmission in sparse outdoor settings.
- timr 6y ago
  "By passing other people without having a mask you pull up, you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors. That's extremely obnoxious behavior, even though you're likely right on the low risks of transmission in sparse outdoor settings." Wait wait wait...why should everyone be required to cater to the most paranoid people in the world, or be considered "obnoxious"? Where does this end? If I walk down the street, and someone twenty feet away from me scowls at me because I'm not wearing a mask, that's objectively their problem, not mine. If you're so scared that you can't stand the idea of someone else being outside without obeying your rules, then perhaps you should reconsider being outside in the first place.
  - ummonk 6y ago
    If you're annoyed by getting scolded for not wearing a mask, maybe you shouldn't be outside in the first place.
    - timr 6y ago
      I'm not annoyed. I recognize that some people have personal problems that I cannot change.
    - JPKab 6y ago
      I NEVER go within 10 feet of people on a trail without a mask. The rule is 6 feet, and I add the extra few feet to remove ambiguity. When I go to certain trails in the Boulder, CO area, there are many "mask nazis" who clearly are extremely paranoid, and on a power trip. They will absolutely not hesitate to scold and holler despite me walking off the trail and not going anywhere near them. Your assumption that everyone is rational and people getting scolded is a sign of their guilt is just wrong. For anyone that lives in the area, the worst are the Nederland residents. Territorial assholes when there isn't a pandemic, and now they feel empowered to really let you have it. Going 10 miles south to trails in Jefferson County, and as long as you stay 6 feet or more, people smile and tell you to have a nice hike.
nyokodo 6y ago
I'm very pro-mask as a reasonable measure for controlling transmission however masks have been politicized and turned into a symbol of in/out group dynamics on both the left and the right. Masks are now triggers to the extremists on both sides and it's impossible to act reasonably and please either group as I'm either seen as a fascist anti-masker or a recruit in the red army. It seems the loud minority on both sides can only think in a Hitler/Stalin dichotomy with zero nuance. I choose to ignore the unreasonable and do what I think is good and reasonable and above all charitable, despite the discomfort.
hindsightbias 6y ago
In my city many small streets have been closed to traffic. Haven't seen anyone complain about runners/bikers not using masks in the street. But we have more than a few runners on those same blocks not masking on the sidewalk.
mdifrgechd 6y ago
Judging by the replies a lot of people agree with those concerned citizens. I hope that the majority are terrified by this. It is one thing to recommend masks for legit health concerns, but it's a very slippery slope that we've already gone far down towards them becoming a religious/ political talisman that signified whether you are willing to shut up and agree with your leaders, or be an "anti-masker". We need to be more outspoken about all these baby steps toward complete submission to superstition.
- nextaccountic 6y ago
  The trouble is that there are actual "anti-masker" that don't wear masks in crowded areas and are actually responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.
  - notassigned 6y ago
    >actually responsible for the deaths of thousands of people No proof
- ryandrake 6y ago
  Wow, so that’s where we are now: following sensible public health advice by wearing a little piece of cloth on your face = baby steps toward complete submission to superstition. If anything, I hope this pandemic helps to normalize mask wearing. People’s mouths and noses are disgusting, and a common source of non-lethal aerosolized diseases. Prior to COVID people used to sneeze and cough all over everything in public without even thinking about it, and I used to get colds all the time. Haven’t even got the sniffles since masks became mandated. Sure, sample size of one, and all. I’ll probably continue to wear a mask in public after this all goes away. When I see an unmasked face now, I mentally think “disease carrier” and avoid. We really could use this small norm-change society-wide.
nikolay 6y ago
Actually, maybe they've read studies like this one: https://medium.com/@jurgenthoelen/belgian-dutch-study-why-in-times-of-covid-19-you-can-not-walk-run-bike-close-to-each-other-a5df19c77d08 https://medium.com/@jurgenthoelen/belgian-dutch-study-why-in...
- timr 6y ago
  This isn't a study, it's a PR piece, and it was debunked months ago. CFD is a poor tool for this kind of analysis: https://www.bicycling.com/news/a32097735/coronavirus-viral-simulation/ https://www.bicycling.com/news/a32097735/coronavirus-viral-s...
  - nikolay 6y ago
    Yeah, I should trust Byclicing.com as the source of science. Okay, maybe it's a whitepaper, but much of our defenses are based on realistic model. I'd rather trust a model than a sports magazine promoting bicycling.
hanoz 6y ago
Where on earth do you live that any one at all is wearing a mask hiking?
- garrettgrimsley 6y ago
  I see plenty of people wearing masks while hiking in Umstead State Park in Raleigh NC.
- kube-system 6y ago
  I wore one on my last hike -- and in fact, the hiking trail was the most crowded place I've been in months. Parks all over the US have seen record-breaking attendance figures this year.
- s1mon 6y ago
  In the SF Bay Area, where the hiking is amazing, the majority of people I see are wearing masks. We also have some of the lowest incidence of Covid in the US for the density and population. Personally, I figure if I can smell someone smoking as I pass them on the street, even with a KN95 mask on, it's probably a good idea to wear a mask all the time.
- ghaff 6y ago
  In Massachusetts, it's very common although not universal. (And many, like myself, tend to pull up a gaiter when I get near, especially mask-wearing, other people.)
romanoderoma 6y ago
I tend to consider not wearing a mask like smoking near some non smoker (I'm a smoker BTW). The risk of them getting a serious disease caused by the smoke of my cigarette is non existent, if I am far enough the smell also is not strong enough to be of real disturbance, but I see their faces and I don't blame them, since I am the one doing something that is notoriously annoying and it costs me nothing, I don't smoke if there are non smokers around and I can't avoid them or am the only one smoking. On the other hand I can't stand loud people and when I meet one, I ask them to lower their voices. Wearing a mask it's the same thing: it costs nothing and wearing one prevents misunderstandings, while also adding a [nobody knows exactly how effective] additional layer of protection that does not hurt.
SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
Pulling the mask up and down is unsafe for several reasons. First of all, you touch your face. Chinese scientists insist on fomite transmission being real. Second, more importantly, you need your mask tightly fit, to protect others. If you keep fiddling with it, moving up and down, it wont be tight after second or third time you do this. And from the social point of view it is just a bad signal. Period.
ddod 6y ago
Reading your comment, it's unclear how far you're keeping from others. The only information is that other people don't feel safe given your distance and lack of mask. It's analogous to you feeling like you're a safe driver but having passengers asking you to slow down. If you're not judging the danger to others commensurately to them, it seems like the onus should be on you to adjust your behavior. Also, as others pointed out, this study's idea of "crowded spaces" might not align with your idea of it. If someone with COVID-19 passed me on an average-sized trail path or sidewalk breathing heavily while running, I wouldn't feel safe and I doubt many other reasonable people would either. It's not an issue of outside air vs. inside air as it is whether you end up breathing the same air as others, and you might not be a great judge of when that is or how it applies to this study. Also, if you're interested in backing up your actions with studies, you should note that "social distancing" meaning 6ft distance which I'm assuming you're referring to has been debunked by MIT and Oxford studies. Figuring out exactly what's safe and not is not clear cut, which is why simple rules like "wear a mask outside" is so important, because we clearly can't all be trusted to make good judgment calls.

by umvi 6y ago

strogonoff 6y ago

I saw a video where a person, walking alone on an apparently empty sidewalk, is not scolded but harassed for not wearing a mask (there is a mask, just not worn). The harasser was the one proudly filming their heroic act. (Addendum: there’s the obvious question, why not just wear a mask 100% of the time? There are no downsides, right? — There can be. Perhaps my mask had been in use for a while, I suspect it’s gotten dirty enough to be a potential health hazard, but I don’t have another mask to replace it? I’d still use it if people are around, but would try to reduce my exposure to it otherwise. Maybe I have asthma or some type of breathing difficulty, and wearing a mask makes it worse? I think those two are probably among the most common reasons.)

deadmutex 6y ago
This seems like it risks having an opposite effect.
pan69 6y ago
> The harasser was the one proudly filming their heroic act. This behavior seems to be part of Call Out Culture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e9VYf9FKHo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e9VYf9FKHo
- jhardy54 6y ago
  For anyone interested in 'cancel culture' sans the reactionary right-wing propaganda: https://youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8 https://youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    What is "reactionary right-wing propaganda" about Jonathan Haidt [1]? That's a completely unfounded assertion. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt
    - spion 6y ago
      That's why "sans" was there.
      - sebmellen 6y ago
        Perhaps English is your second language (given your German username?) — "sans" means without. Thus the comment was implying that the ContraPoints video was "without" the implied "right-wing propaganda" in the Jonathan Haidt / Joe Rogan video.
        spion 6y ago
        Indeed its my second language, but I did get the meaning of sans right. Unfortunately I got mixed up with the two youtube links instead :)
winphone1974 6y ago
How about the downside of normalizing wearing a mask? These are not normal times and this is not the new normal; I want everyone to wear a mask because it must be done not because we should permanently condition ourselves that this is how we now live.
- strogonoff 6y ago
  I think the downside of not wearing a mask is, in fact, normalising not wearing a mask in the eyes of people who do not take into account that it’s not worn for a reason and because there is no one near me. Thus I try to put mask on when I see someone on the street even if they are far away. I think not wearing masks again will be easy to normalise. For example, Hong Kong got hit by the first SARS and everyone wore a mask for a time, and then when it was over all was back to normal and masks quickly became rare.
  - markkanof 6y ago
    I hope you are right, but I'm not convinced. Covid isn't just going to go away like switching off a light switch. A good number of people have gone way off the deep end with regard to "being safe". I'm not sure they will be able to reason about when the risk is low enough to be able to stop wearing a mask.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      Some countries are now at nearly zero cases.
    - strogonoff 6y ago
      I believe once vaccines and better treatment are generally available and proven effective, it will be a cue to very quickly abandon excess caution for most people, even those who have gone to the extreme. Larger countries (including the US) that are more sparsely populated and tend to rely on central messaging from authorities less will probably have areas that are slower at adopting new measures (or lack thereof), which may be frustrating, but I imagine large cities will be able to react promptly.
parliament32 6y ago
WHO explicitly recommends against wearing masks while exercising: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters#exercising https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2... >FACT: People should NOT wear masks while exercising >People should NOT wear masks when exercising, as masks may reduce the ability to breathe comfortably. >Sweat can make the mask become wet more quickly which makes it difficult to breathe and promotes the growth of microorganisms. The important preventive measure during exercise is to maintain physical distance of at least one meter from others.

deadmutex 6y ago

Typically, the best practice is to wait for results from multiple studies, and have them confirm the same conclusion. Otherwise, there is a risk it being a fluke or having some other bias in the data (e.g. environmental humidity, etc.) Personally these days, for outdoors, I use the following algorithm: 1. Over 6 feet away from people: Wear a mask below the nose (so I can have it ready for state #2 below, when needed). 2. Under 6 feet away from someone (even if just passing them by): Wear a mask properly (i.e. over the mouth AND nose). Edit: Formatting.

CameronNemo 6y ago
What is the point of wearing the mask below the nose? I find that the only reason to not wear a mask is discomfort from heat and sweat. Wearing a mask, but wrong, doesn't help that. As for my personal set of rules: if I can distance 12 feet I don't wear one. If I am frequently passing people (on sidewalks or trails) I keep it on. If it is fairly empty and I pass someone every once in a while, I keep the mask in my hand and breath through it when I pass someone.
- deadmutex 6y ago
  Why wear mask below nose when I am far away from everyone? Why not just take it off? I want to have easy access to move it up when needed. I am typically just walking and the weather is cool these days, so I do not experience sweating. Also since the hot air is not exhaled directly into the mask, it prevents/slows down the heating of the mask. Why not wear it fully? I find it easier sometimes to breathe without a mask. So, when it is safe to do so, I lower it.

SllX 6y ago

> for whatever good it will do... None at all. I’ve taken to getting my daily exercise in the early morning and late evening just to avoid talking to/arguing with my neighbors/the busybody brigade. The fact that I walk well out into the street when there aren’t any cars keeping roughly 15 to 30 feet from just about anyone and line of sight on everyone around me does not change this.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> just to avoid talking to/arguing with my neighbors/the busybody brigade You're right that avoidance is the best bet here, for the time being. These are people that have been manipulated and fixed with beliefs inserted into their reptile brain. This is not the neocortex speaking - arguing on the basis of reason (pointing to a study) will not convince them that a mask is unnecessary away from people, in a field or outdoors. They must be engaged in the same way they were manipulated - by appealing to emotion. It's a tough nut to crack.
- SllX 6y ago
  Unfortunately you’ve hit the mark. We just have to pick our battles.

GiorgioG 6y ago

> masks are only really necessary where social distancing isn't possible All well and good as long as everyone buys into social distancing. Unfortunately plenty of people believe in neither masks nor social distancing, so you can't trust that people (strangers in the same vicinity) will stay 6ft apart.

knaq 6y ago
There is no magic "6ft apart". It's just the maximum that seemed reasonable to demand. It's about the width of a supermarket aisle or a typical business hallway. Metric countries surely don't use that distance. Nothing is said about length of exposure or ventilation quality either.
- zamadatix 6y ago
  There is no such thing as a perfectly safe distance but there is a "you're really risking common spread in most situations if less than" and that's where the 6 feet/ 2 meter number somes from and why it's relevant not because the virus counts out 6 feet and drops dead. I don't think anyone here is claiming that by referencing it either and you always want more distance if it's reasonably possible.
  - markkanof 6y ago
    The Netherlands and maybe other European countries use 1.5 meters (~ 5 feet) as their guideline.
  - lutorm 6y ago
    I believe there are several qualifiers on that number, though. For example, the CDC "close contact" guidelines say that a close contact is "someone who was within 6 feet of an infected person for a cumulative total of 15 minutes or more over a 24-hour period". Passing someone on a sidewalk means you're within 6 feet for maybe 5 seconds, which would constitude about 0.5% of such a "close contact" exposure. They also say that several factors with insufficient data mean that it's unclear how things like ventilation, indoor vs outdoor, mask vs no mask, etc, affect the exposure assessment. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/contact-tracing/contact-tracing-plan/appendix.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/contact-tracin...

ssully 6y ago

While I believe this study will be proven over time, it is just one study. Since it's getting colder I am keep most of my exercising inside, but when over the summer I masked up when doing outdoor activities just to be safe for myself, and to make others feel better.

wasyl 6y ago
It's definitely not the first study, I've seen at least 2 or 3 other since March (no links though, sorry). Also the only study that suggested the opposite was a simulation that I think wasn't even peer-reviewed.
18pfsmt 6y ago
Here is an aggregation of studies that come to various conclusions regarding masks. https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/ https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/ Here is an article from July about mask usage in Europe. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/08/face-off-over-face-masks-europes-latest-north-south-split https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/08/face-off...
- ghaff 6y ago
  re: The Economist. "Mask wearing" attitudes in general don't mean much in the context of people who are looking for 100% wearing once you step out of your own door. There are a lot of places that are very compliant indoors, and relatively so outdoors in crowded areas, but not where they're mostly distanced outdoors. To many people, that looks fine. To others, it's horrible.

C19is20 6y ago

I cycle (hard!), I wear a mask. People I pass wear a mask. Jeez, people -wear a mask. It can't be that difficult...to breathe heavily, or contain such, far from others?

cj 6y ago
> I cycle (hard!), I wear a mask. People I pass wear a mask. Jeez, people -wear a mask I'm all for wearing masks and I do it. But not when road biking where I very rarely (1 in 20 rides) come within 20 feet of a human being, other than people driving by me at 55 mph. I also don't wear a mask when running, for the same reason. Maybe if you're running / biking on the sidewalks of NYC, then sure, wear a mask! But on an empty country road outside of major cities?
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  Yeah it is definitely about context. I live in a suburban area. For most of my bike rides I can bike in the street and get 12+ ft if distance. But every once in a while I have to go in a bike lane or on the sidewalk and then I wear my mask. I know the chances of transmission between me riding my bike and a pedestrian are low, but it feels easy to be cautious.
- Baeocystin 6y ago
  One thing I've learned through all of this is that my allergies are a lot better when I wear a mask while exercising outside. So yeah, I wear one every time. FWIW.
  - nimih 6y ago
    I've noticed this as well, and will probably continue to wear a mask of some sort during hay-fever season once the pandemic is over.
- winphone1974 6y ago
  The entire idea of this suspended river of particulate over trails is just ridiculous. As contagious as this disease is, what do people think the odds are they will catch it from their 5 second, 10 foot interaction? If you harass someone on a bike path who wears a mask in their regular social activities all you do is (1) not focus on the real challenge and (2) frustrate and discourage someone who's on the same team

mariodiana 6y ago

The other day I was driving down one of the major streets in Poughkeepsie, NY. There was an old woman sitting by herself on her front stoop, wearing a mask. The sidewalk was maybe 12 or 15 feet away, and there was no one out walking. Best of luck pointing to the actual study. Are you going to print it out and carry it with you? Please understand, I'm not criticizing you -- except to maybe point out that you place an awful lot of unfounded faith in your fellow human beings.

thenewwazoo 6y ago
I do as that woman does for one reason: to socialize the normalcy of mask-wearing. It is as much a political statement as anything else, too. Wearing masks should be the norm, not the exception, and wearing one any time I'm in public reinforces that.
- fauigerzigerk 6y ago
  But if wearing a mask becomes a political statement there's bound to be a political statement to the contrary from the other side. I don't think that's a game we should play. Let's just follow the science where possible.
  - spion 6y ago
    Agreed. Although sometimes its easier not to fiddle with the mask taking it off and on again, especially if one doesn't have easy access to hand hygiene
  - andrewjl 6y ago
    Risk probabilities also need to be taken into account. The science on mask wearing did change and it's possible it may change again if the virus evolves in the near future. What won't change is the risk profile of wearing vs not wearing a mask. Wearing a mask despite necessity is an inconvenience, but unlikely to result in harm. Not wearing mask, even if current science says is safe to do so, is still exposure to potential harm that may have been unforeseen. For instance a transmission vector that is not yet a well characterized one. This is why I personally take a dim view to these sorts "following the science" arguments.

chiefalchemist 6y ago

If you don't have Covid then the only way to get Covid is to be exposed to someone who is contagious. I know that's stating the obvious. The point is, if you're outside and with no one but yourself, and not close to anyone else, there's no risk. A passing squirrel or a bird is not going to infect anyone. People walking solo in open spaces with masks on - which I see a couple times per week on my morning run - perpetuates a scientifically false narrative. I'm not going to object. If that makes them comfortable. But it's also a false sense of comfort. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

laurent92 6y ago
Mask is mandatory outdoors all the time in the big cities in France. Sometimes I think it’s just the government taking revenge for when we mocked them for not being able to procure masks — having destroyed their stock of 1 billion masks a year before the pandemic. “You want mask? Ok, wear them now. Who feels stupid now?”
- chiefalchemist 6y ago
  France's is a different dynamic. After the yellow vests events certainly the gov wants to reestablish it's place. That aside, I'm not in a big city. I'm in the suburbs. I'm talking about the local park and such. My morning run is through a local small university, currently closed. I see more deer than people some mornings. In that context, I've seen people from a distance walking alone with a mask on. It's 8 am. No one else around. There's no scientific reason for a mask. I believe masks are important. They are essential. But that's no justification for unnecessary masks. In fact, we should be conserving masks. Not wearing them when they're not necessary.
yellowapple 6y ago
> If you don't have Covid That's a big "if". When's the last time you were tested? Because that's the actual reason to wear a mask. Preventing yourself from getting infected is less relevant than preventing yourself from infecting others. > A passing squirrel or a bird is not going to infect anyone. I don't know about those two animals specifically, but it is very much possible for COVID to spread via animals (that is, indeed, in all likelihood how the COVID pandemic started in the first place). > People walking solo in open spaces with masks on - which I see a couple times per week on my morning run - perpetuates a scientifically false narrative. No, it perpetuates a narrative of "it's better to be safe than sorry", which is about as scientific of a narrative as it gets when it comes to infectious diseases. I wear my mask when out walking or hiking specifically because I don't trust others to keep their distance, and because I care more about the possibility that I might inadvertently spread COVID to someone who'd die from it than I do about messing up my beard with a mask.

kube-system 6y ago

These people most likely did not arrive to their conclusions by reading studies themselves, and likely aren't going to be persuaded differently by one. Most people gain their understandings of best public health practices from the statements of authorities they trust. Unfortunately, a lot of nuance is lost when people get their information second, third, or fourth-hand.

dustinmoris 6y ago

Good for you. Fortunately where I live mask wearing is not a political statement and therefore people use common sense and their brain to evaluate when and where to wear a mask and everything is very relaxed and fluid. When mask wearing becomes a political symbol then all logic is out of the window and you get crazy mental ideologists on both sides destroying it for everyone. We should make a list of all those people on both sides and maybe one day that list might become useful lol.

GiorgioG 6y ago
It's mind-boggling to me that people act so irrationally. Maybe one won't get very ill if they are infected with Covid-19. But it's also possible that they'll inadvertently pass it on to others who may become gravely ill (or worse.) What does it cost you to wear a mask? It's uncomfortable and annoying - I agree! If we make mask-wearing complicated (over nose, under nose, under the chin!) people will just do the most comfortable thing and it'll wind up being completely ineffective. The coronavirus doesn't care if you are republican or democrat. Simple rule: wear a mask when there's other people around - your life may not depend on it, but your or someone else's grandmother's might. If a vaccine is truly around the corner, we can actually cause some people not to die by wearing masks. There's just no good reason to be this selfish, prolonging this nightmare in the process.

dheera 6y ago

The problem is when you pass other people on the trail and it's not possible to maintain a proper physical distance in passing. Also, people seem to think the virus magically stops at an invisible 6 foot distance whereas in reality you need much more if you're breathing and running where you leave a much bigger trail of aerosolized particles as you run, and there's also wind carrying your breath much further than in a still situation. I do take mask off for hikes when nobody is in sight but I always put it on when I see people are about to pass. What's annoying is people who don't put their mask on to pass you and don't stop and wait for both sides to have mask on before passing. I've been forced multiple times to abruptly stop and backtrack my steps to maintain distance while fiddling my mask on because the other person kept pressing forward impatiently.

themark 6y ago
I have started to just hold my breath while passing people on a trail. Problem solved?
- core-questions 6y ago
  Implying there was a problem to begin with. Where's the evidence of people catching this from 2 seconds spent next to someone else while walking nearby outdoors in opposite directions? You think that somehow that's not OK, but sitting 6 feet from someone indoors is?
  - dheera 6y ago
    (a) I don't sit 6 feet from someone indoors either. (b) The problem is we don't know, and I'm in a risk group, so I don't want to take chances until something is proven to be safe.
- dustinmoris 6y ago
  Is this sarcasm or are you suffering from anxiety?
- dheera 6y ago
  It's really hard for me to hold my breath going uphill, and also there's a huge wafting trail of aerosolized particles for 20+ feet behind other runners, so if I'm walking and they're running I'd have to hold my breath for longer than I can. Have you seen the simulations?

bryanrasmussen 6y ago

>I tried to explain how outdoors masks are only really necessary where social distancing isn't possible How close did these people get to you when trying to express their concern?

jancsika 6y ago

> I tried to explain ... which is why I simply wear a mask while hiking. :)

ummonk 6y ago

It doesn't matter what your understanding of the science is. By passing other people without having a mask you pull up, you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors. That's extremely obnoxious behavior, even though you're likely right on the low risks of transmission in sparse outdoor settings.

timr 6y ago
"By passing other people without having a mask you pull up, you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors. That's extremely obnoxious behavior, even though you're likely right on the low risks of transmission in sparse outdoor settings." Wait wait wait...why should everyone be required to cater to the most paranoid people in the world, or be considered "obnoxious"? Where does this end? If I walk down the street, and someone twenty feet away from me scowls at me because I'm not wearing a mask, that's objectively their problem, not mine. If you're so scared that you can't stand the idea of someone else being outside without obeying your rules, then perhaps you should reconsider being outside in the first place.
- ummonk 6y ago
  If you're annoyed by getting scolded for not wearing a mask, maybe you shouldn't be outside in the first place.
  - timr 6y ago
    I'm not annoyed. I recognize that some people have personal problems that I cannot change.
  - JPKab 6y ago
    I NEVER go within 10 feet of people on a trail without a mask. The rule is 6 feet, and I add the extra few feet to remove ambiguity. When I go to certain trails in the Boulder, CO area, there are many "mask nazis" who clearly are extremely paranoid, and on a power trip. They will absolutely not hesitate to scold and holler despite me walking off the trail and not going anywhere near them. Your assumption that everyone is rational and people getting scolded is a sign of their guilt is just wrong. For anyone that lives in the area, the worst are the Nederland residents. Territorial assholes when there isn't a pandemic, and now they feel empowered to really let you have it. Going 10 miles south to trails in Jefferson County, and as long as you stay 6 feet or more, people smile and tell you to have a nice hike.

nyokodo 6y ago

I'm very pro-mask as a reasonable measure for controlling transmission however masks have been politicized and turned into a symbol of in/out group dynamics on both the left and the right. Masks are now triggers to the extremists on both sides and it's impossible to act reasonably and please either group as I'm either seen as a fascist anti-masker or a recruit in the red army. It seems the loud minority on both sides can only think in a Hitler/Stalin dichotomy with zero nuance. I choose to ignore the unreasonable and do what I think is good and reasonable and above all charitable, despite the discomfort.

hindsightbias 6y ago

In my city many small streets have been closed to traffic. Haven't seen anyone complain about runners/bikers not using masks in the street. But we have more than a few runners on those same blocks not masking on the sidewalk.

mdifrgechd 6y ago

Judging by the replies a lot of people agree with those concerned citizens. I hope that the majority are terrified by this. It is one thing to recommend masks for legit health concerns, but it's a very slippery slope that we've already gone far down towards them becoming a religious/ political talisman that signified whether you are willing to shut up and agree with your leaders, or be an "anti-masker". We need to be more outspoken about all these baby steps toward complete submission to superstition.

nextaccountic 6y ago
The trouble is that there are actual "anti-masker" that don't wear masks in crowded areas and are actually responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.
- notassigned 6y ago
  >actually responsible for the deaths of thousands of people No proof
ryandrake 6y ago
Wow, so that’s where we are now: following sensible public health advice by wearing a little piece of cloth on your face = baby steps toward complete submission to superstition. If anything, I hope this pandemic helps to normalize mask wearing. People’s mouths and noses are disgusting, and a common source of non-lethal aerosolized diseases. Prior to COVID people used to sneeze and cough all over everything in public without even thinking about it, and I used to get colds all the time. Haven’t even got the sniffles since masks became mandated. Sure, sample size of one, and all. I’ll probably continue to wear a mask in public after this all goes away. When I see an unmasked face now, I mentally think “disease carrier” and avoid. We really could use this small norm-change society-wide.

nikolay 6y ago

Actually, maybe they've read studies like this one: https://medium.com/@jurgenthoelen/belgian-dutch-study-why-in-times-of-covid-19-you-can-not-walk-run-bike-close-to-each-other-a5df19c77d08 https://medium.com/@jurgenthoelen/belgian-dutch-study-why-in...

timr 6y ago
This isn't a study, it's a PR piece, and it was debunked months ago. CFD is a poor tool for this kind of analysis: https://www.bicycling.com/news/a32097735/coronavirus-viral-simulation/ https://www.bicycling.com/news/a32097735/coronavirus-viral-s...
- nikolay 6y ago
  Yeah, I should trust Byclicing.com as the source of science. Okay, maybe it's a whitepaper, but much of our defenses are based on realistic model. I'd rather trust a model than a sports magazine promoting bicycling.

hanoz 6y ago

Where on earth do you live that any one at all is wearing a mask hiking?

garrettgrimsley 6y ago
I see plenty of people wearing masks while hiking in Umstead State Park in Raleigh NC.
kube-system 6y ago
I wore one on my last hike -- and in fact, the hiking trail was the most crowded place I've been in months. Parks all over the US have seen record-breaking attendance figures this year.
s1mon 6y ago
In the SF Bay Area, where the hiking is amazing, the majority of people I see are wearing masks. We also have some of the lowest incidence of Covid in the US for the density and population. Personally, I figure if I can smell someone smoking as I pass them on the street, even with a KN95 mask on, it's probably a good idea to wear a mask all the time.
ghaff 6y ago
In Massachusetts, it's very common although not universal. (And many, like myself, tend to pull up a gaiter when I get near, especially mask-wearing, other people.)

romanoderoma 6y ago

I tend to consider not wearing a mask like smoking near some non smoker (I'm a smoker BTW). The risk of them getting a serious disease caused by the smoke of my cigarette is non existent, if I am far enough the smell also is not strong enough to be of real disturbance, but I see their faces and I don't blame them, since I am the one doing something that is notoriously annoying and it costs me nothing, I don't smoke if there are non smokers around and I can't avoid them or am the only one smoking. On the other hand I can't stand loud people and when I meet one, I ask them to lower their voices. Wearing a mask it's the same thing: it costs nothing and wearing one prevents misunderstandings, while also adding a [nobody knows exactly how effective] additional layer of protection that does not hurt.

SomeoneFromCA 6y ago

Pulling the mask up and down is unsafe for several reasons. First of all, you touch your face. Chinese scientists insist on fomite transmission being real. Second, more importantly, you need your mask tightly fit, to protect others. If you keep fiddling with it, moving up and down, it wont be tight after second or third time you do this. And from the social point of view it is just a bad signal. Period.

ddod 6y ago

Reading your comment, it's unclear how far you're keeping from others. The only information is that other people don't feel safe given your distance and lack of mask. It's analogous to you feeling like you're a safe driver but having passengers asking you to slow down. If you're not judging the danger to others commensurately to them, it seems like the onus should be on you to adjust your behavior. Also, as others pointed out, this study's idea of "crowded spaces" might not align with your idea of it. If someone with COVID-19 passed me on an average-sized trail path or sidewalk breathing heavily while running, I wouldn't feel safe and I doubt many other reasonable people would either. It's not an issue of outside air vs. inside air as it is whether you end up breathing the same air as others, and you might not be a great judge of when that is or how it applies to this study. Also, if you're interested in backing up your actions with studies, you should note that "social distancing" meaning 6ft distance which I'm assuming you're referring to has been debunked by MIT and Oxford studies. Figuring out exactly what's safe and not is not clear cut, which is why simple rules like "wear a mask outside" is so important, because we clearly can't all be trusted to make good judgment calls.