14 ms·

Guitar Center definitely shifted to "mainstream" and de-contented stores after bain got involved. Maybe that is the only real path forward, but I dont ever stop

by S_A_P 6y ago

Guitar Center definitely shifted to "mainstream" and de-contented stores after bain got involved. Maybe that is the only real path forward, but I dont ever stop into Guitar Center anymore since they usually only have the prosumer-ish gear that Im not interested in. They also seem to have much less used gear in each store, despite the influx of 'sell yer gear here for cash' emails I get from them. Edit: Another thing- part of the problem for US based retailers in general is MAP. Its price fixing, and in many cases I can go to, say Thomanmusic.com and order something from Germany for ~85% of the best price I can get at major retailers here, including shipping, tarriffs and foreign transaction fees. Personally I think MAP is ridiculous and leads to TREMENDOUS waste of resources. Im buying something that was shipped from China to Europe, then shipping it back to Texas all for less money than US retailers will allow. WHY IS THAT?

mjh2539 6y ago
Can you please define "MAP"?
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Minimum Advertised Price. The FTC has a good primer on it and why it is sometimes acceptable. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
- S_A_P 6y ago
  Minimum Advertised Price. While it is possible in some cases to negotiate with a store, most of the time they ask you to get a price in writing that is lower so that they can match it. A few problems with that- 1) MAP is the minimum Advertise-able price so you wont find that anywhere online searching, and stores aren't exactly excited to quote you lower just so that you can take it down the road to get a discount... Edit: Also Ive tried getting a lower price on gear in the US by showing the all in Thomann price, and the response I get:We do not honor non US pricing.
- JohnJamesRambo 6y ago
  Thank you for asking this, I was lost.
nr2x 6y ago
Online it’s easy to open the chat window and just ask for the best price they can give you and get a really competitive number. I just don’t think people realize you can do that.
- wyclif 6y ago
  Yes, I've done that on Sweetwater so many times, and they always give me a better price than GC.
- Tokkemon 6y ago
  That requires human interaction, and if I'm going to a website, I explicitly don't want that as part of the buying experience. I want a machine that will give me exactly what I want with no delays and minimal salesmanship.
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    If you want to pay more they are happy to accept more.
  - nr2x 6y ago
    You literally just ask and they give you a better price. There’s no up-sell, they want the transaction completed as quickly as you do.
- solotronics 6y ago
  Wow, I had no idea this was a thing.
  - nr2x 6y ago
    Yup, keeps me coming back. Also open-box specials are a great way to save money.
ksk 6y ago
For most international retail products, local pricing is based in-part on the cost of service centers/staff that are required to maintain local operations. How does it work with musical instruments?
trentnix 6y ago
MAP loopholes (like the thomanmusic.com example you mentioned) have killed brick and mortar retail. Some of those prices you're paying from those European outlets are less than the local retailer can buy it wholesale. So you're asking your local retailer to lose money to make the sale. I owned a bike shop and sporting goods store in a past life (I've written about it here: http://www.sciencerocketry.com/blog/great-work-and-new-beginnings http://www.sciencerocketry.com/blog/great-work-and-new-begin...) and the effects of Shimano's inability (or really, refusal) to control pricing from its European distribution was catastrophic to my business and my peers. And not only that, I found that many of those sellers would defraud customs on expensive items by declaring the value just under thresholds that would result in them paying import taxes and tariffs. It was a profit destroyer for us but Shimano moved units, and that's all that mattered to them. When some of those parts customers purchased from Chain Reaction or Wiggle or whatever didn't work, the customers who bought those parts overseas would come into our shop asking us to handle the warranty process. We were a Shimano dealer, after all! If we politely refused or tried to collect a handling charge, we were the ones that would face the customer's outrage. The end result is that there is less sales tax in your community because of the absence of that brick and mortar retailer. There are fewer jobs. There are fewer local communities built around hobbies, crafts, trades, or whatever. But you can get products cheaper and your dollars have greater purchasing power. Maybe that's a worthwhile trade-off - YMMV.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  But what is causing the prices in US and EU to vary so much? Im a cyclist, and even with a race team discount, the EU prices are often 10% lower than through my LBS. Are Shimano and others just gouging in the US market because they can (and damn the impact on local retailers)?
  - ohmaigad 6y ago
    Maybe the fact that EU has VAT? The final consumer price might be the same in US and EU but manufacturer can charge US retailers more because the sales tax is small compared to VAT.
jozzy-james 6y ago
unrelated, but kraft music is a good spot for domestic orders in my experience
christiansakai 6y ago
Wait what? I try to get some Suhr model from Europe since some of the models aren't here in the US, but the price there is more expensive, also need the shipping cost here to US.
- S_A_P 6y ago
  Depends on the gear and the manufacturer. Typically Japanese or Euro brands are cheaper when purchased in the EU, while the American brands are not much different. Also depends on where the Euro is compared to the dollar on the particular day. Some examples of brands I can find cheaper in Europe vs US: - Jomox - MFB - Roland - Behringer(In some cases by 50%(!) For instance the Behringer X32 mixer is a pretty popular 32 channel mixer used throughout the world at Thomannmusic.com its currently $1,495/€1,262.93 vs $2498.99 at GuitarCenter.com) https://www.thomannmusic.com/behringer_x_32.htm https://www.thomannmusic.com/behringer_x_32.htm https://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer/Digital-Mixer-X32-1334587638902.gc?rNtt=x32&index=1 https://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer/Digital-Mixer-X32-133... YMMV but I can assure you there is arbitrage/huge discounts to be had out there.
tacitusarc 6y ago
MAP is really important for manufacturers. It is valuable to have multiple distribution channels for your product, and in the age of online retail, this is especially true. Because cultivating a distribution channel is not zero cost, if those channels are destroyed by one distributor taking a loss and undercutting everyone else, it can be highly detrimental to the manufacturer. That's because if you only have a single distribution channel they can pressure you to cut manufacturing costs through outsourcing or decreasing quality. Source: I helped build a product to track MAP violations, and there's also a bunch of articles and books written on this stuff.
- S_A_P 6y ago
  The cynic in me thinks the 'price in writing' price match is so that the price matching retailer can report retailers who dont abide by MAP. I dont disagree, but it leads to scenarios like the above where arbitrage exists. I can buy something from Europe and then sell it on Reverb under MAP and still make a tidy profit. This sort of thing doesnt scale and introduces risk to me if I do that(how do you handle warranty claims, most gear is shipped with EU power cords so you have to buy US power cords to ship to customers, etc) For retailers, most do not have the resources to differentiate so 1 store selling for MAP is interchangeable with another. There are boutique stores that have passionate/knowledgeable staff that can guide less informed or newer customers. Sweetwater does this at scale, and I do buy from them for this reason when its something Im not completely up to speed on when I purchase. This is not an easy problem, but I do think an unofficial price floor is not good for the consumer. I also acknowledge that there are stores that will discount privately via chat or in person, but ironically Guitar Center was very inflexible on several items I wanted to purchase there in the last 5 or so years. I ended up going to smaller retailers.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    It is also easier for the manufacturer to check. it isn't unheard of for someone to walk into a store, get a discount, and then leave. If you next day the manufacturer says they caught you and so you get no more product.
ssalazar 6y ago
> They also seem to have much less used gear in each store Reverb.com completely kneecapped this side of their business, and probably lots of their new product sales also. Between competition from Reverb (who have minimal warehousing overhead and no physical retail overhead), online-only sellers (who have no retail overhead), an expanded boutique market (pedals / eurorack), and much of the overall market turning to software and direct sales (much easier to download Ableton and start making music on day 1 rather than spend years learning guitar), the writing has been on the wall for large-scale brick and mortar operations in the music creation trade.
toby 6y ago
Thank you for introducing me to this concept. I hadn't heard of MAP and ended up reading about it. I had always assumed that a salesperson immediately offering me a discount, or that weird "price shown when you add to cart" pattern were just people being shady to increase conversion... while that may be true some of the time, I had no idea there was a legitimate reason why they might not tell you the "real" price upfront.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  MAP isn't any less shady than the other behaviors.
  - toby 6y ago
    Sorry I guess I misstated my point, MAP seems super shady, I just didn't realize that the other things I found shady were basically forced by MAP.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pantulis 6y ago
Regarding the Thomann competition, I am from Spain and constantly checking popular synthesizers and digital piano prices and the local shops advertise prices that are mostly on par with the german juggernaut. Thomann is great, but a decade ago they sent me a Korg synth with the printed manual in German, I guess this has changed. On the other hand, I prefer getting the package myself in the car, so as to avoid surprises when the thing arrives --I didn't have any issues with Thomann's courier, though.
- S_A_P 6y ago
  That is my preference as well, but in some cases Ive saved significant amounts by purchasing from Thomann or MusicStore.de. Im in the US, so the Minimum Advertised Price is the default unless you find a store that will work with you and offer a discount privately. Those exist, but not for every piece of gear(popular stuff usually wont get a discount, because why?) I feel like this is the kind of problem that is solve-able, but Im not quite sure how just yet. If I can figure it out, maybe there is a startup idea :)
iamthepieman 6y ago
What is MAP. That's a really hard term to search for so I'm not finding anything obviously relevant.
- thatguy0900 6y ago
  Minimum advertised price
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  MAP = Minimum Advertised Price Luxury manufacturers often demand that retailers sell at or above the MAP so that retailers don't undercut each other, and that the pricing reflect a marketing segmentation based on a pricing tier.
porknubbins 6y ago
Maybe missing some background but I’m curious what mainstream and de-contented mean in this context? I’ve heard the term prosumer referring to appliances like espresso machines, but with guitars would a $2000 Gibson be prosumer?
turbinerneiter 6y ago
What is MAP?
- turbinerneiter 6y ago
  Ah, found it, Minimum Advertised Price.
rossjudson 6y ago
Near as I can tell, Bain loaded up Guitar Center with a pile of debt, and that debt was one of the primary reasons it went into bankruptcy. I don't really understand how leveraged buyouts are legal, and I suppose I should learn a bit.

by S_A_P 6y ago

mjh2539 6y ago

Can you please define "MAP"?

1123581321 6y ago
Minimum Advertised Price. The FTC has a good primer on it and why it is sometimes acceptable. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
S_A_P 6y ago
Minimum Advertised Price. While it is possible in some cases to negotiate with a store, most of the time they ask you to get a price in writing that is lower so that they can match it. A few problems with that- 1) MAP is the minimum Advertise-able price so you wont find that anywhere online searching, and stores aren't exactly excited to quote you lower just so that you can take it down the road to get a discount... Edit: Also Ive tried getting a lower price on gear in the US by showing the all in Thomann price, and the response I get:We do not honor non US pricing.
JohnJamesRambo 6y ago
Thank you for asking this, I was lost.

nr2x 6y ago

Online it’s easy to open the chat window and just ask for the best price they can give you and get a really competitive number. I just don’t think people realize you can do that.

wyclif 6y ago
Yes, I've done that on Sweetwater so many times, and they always give me a better price than GC.
Tokkemon 6y ago
That requires human interaction, and if I'm going to a website, I explicitly don't want that as part of the buying experience. I want a machine that will give me exactly what I want with no delays and minimal salesmanship.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  If you want to pay more they are happy to accept more.
- nr2x 6y ago
  You literally just ask and they give you a better price. There’s no up-sell, they want the transaction completed as quickly as you do.
solotronics 6y ago
Wow, I had no idea this was a thing.
- nr2x 6y ago
  Yup, keeps me coming back. Also open-box specials are a great way to save money.

ksk 6y ago

For most international retail products, local pricing is based in-part on the cost of service centers/staff that are required to maintain local operations. How does it work with musical instruments?

trentnix 6y ago

MAP loopholes (like the thomanmusic.com example you mentioned) have killed brick and mortar retail. Some of those prices you're paying from those European outlets are less than the local retailer can buy it wholesale. So you're asking your local retailer to lose money to make the sale. I owned a bike shop and sporting goods store in a past life (I've written about it here: http://www.sciencerocketry.com/blog/great-work-and-new-beginnings http://www.sciencerocketry.com/blog/great-work-and-new-begin...) and the effects of Shimano's inability (or really, refusal) to control pricing from its European distribution was catastrophic to my business and my peers. And not only that, I found that many of those sellers would defraud customs on expensive items by declaring the value just under thresholds that would result in them paying import taxes and tariffs. It was a profit destroyer for us but Shimano moved units, and that's all that mattered to them. When some of those parts customers purchased from Chain Reaction or Wiggle or whatever didn't work, the customers who bought those parts overseas would come into our shop asking us to handle the warranty process. We were a Shimano dealer, after all! If we politely refused or tried to collect a handling charge, we were the ones that would face the customer's outrage. The end result is that there is less sales tax in your community because of the absence of that brick and mortar retailer. There are fewer jobs. There are fewer local communities built around hobbies, crafts, trades, or whatever. But you can get products cheaper and your dollars have greater purchasing power. Maybe that's a worthwhile trade-off - YMMV.

alistairSH 6y ago
But what is causing the prices in US and EU to vary so much? Im a cyclist, and even with a race team discount, the EU prices are often 10% lower than through my LBS. Are Shimano and others just gouging in the US market because they can (and damn the impact on local retailers)?
- ohmaigad 6y ago
  Maybe the fact that EU has VAT? The final consumer price might be the same in US and EU but manufacturer can charge US retailers more because the sales tax is small compared to VAT.

jozzy-james 6y ago

unrelated, but kraft music is a good spot for domestic orders in my experience

christiansakai 6y ago

Wait what? I try to get some Suhr model from Europe since some of the models aren't here in the US, but the price there is more expensive, also need the shipping cost here to US.

S_A_P 6y ago
Depends on the gear and the manufacturer. Typically Japanese or Euro brands are cheaper when purchased in the EU, while the American brands are not much different. Also depends on where the Euro is compared to the dollar on the particular day. Some examples of brands I can find cheaper in Europe vs US: - Jomox - MFB - Roland - Behringer(In some cases by 50%(!) For instance the Behringer X32 mixer is a pretty popular 32 channel mixer used throughout the world at Thomannmusic.com its currently $1,495/€1,262.93 vs $2498.99 at GuitarCenter.com) https://www.thomannmusic.com/behringer_x_32.htm https://www.thomannmusic.com/behringer_x_32.htm https://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer/Digital-Mixer-X32-1334587638902.gc?rNtt=x32&index=1 https://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer/Digital-Mixer-X32-133... YMMV but I can assure you there is arbitrage/huge discounts to be had out there.

tacitusarc 6y ago

MAP is really important for manufacturers. It is valuable to have multiple distribution channels for your product, and in the age of online retail, this is especially true. Because cultivating a distribution channel is not zero cost, if those channels are destroyed by one distributor taking a loss and undercutting everyone else, it can be highly detrimental to the manufacturer. That's because if you only have a single distribution channel they can pressure you to cut manufacturing costs through outsourcing or decreasing quality. Source: I helped build a product to track MAP violations, and there's also a bunch of articles and books written on this stuff.

S_A_P 6y ago
The cynic in me thinks the 'price in writing' price match is so that the price matching retailer can report retailers who dont abide by MAP. I dont disagree, but it leads to scenarios like the above where arbitrage exists. I can buy something from Europe and then sell it on Reverb under MAP and still make a tidy profit. This sort of thing doesnt scale and introduces risk to me if I do that(how do you handle warranty claims, most gear is shipped with EU power cords so you have to buy US power cords to ship to customers, etc) For retailers, most do not have the resources to differentiate so 1 store selling for MAP is interchangeable with another. There are boutique stores that have passionate/knowledgeable staff that can guide less informed or newer customers. Sweetwater does this at scale, and I do buy from them for this reason when its something Im not completely up to speed on when I purchase. This is not an easy problem, but I do think an unofficial price floor is not good for the consumer. I also acknowledge that there are stores that will discount privately via chat or in person, but ironically Guitar Center was very inflexible on several items I wanted to purchase there in the last 5 or so years. I ended up going to smaller retailers.
- bluGill 6y ago
  It is also easier for the manufacturer to check. it isn't unheard of for someone to walk into a store, get a discount, and then leave. If you next day the manufacturer says they caught you and so you get no more product.

ssalazar 6y ago

> They also seem to have much less used gear in each store Reverb.com completely kneecapped this side of their business, and probably lots of their new product sales also. Between competition from Reverb (who have minimal warehousing overhead and no physical retail overhead), online-only sellers (who have no retail overhead), an expanded boutique market (pedals / eurorack), and much of the overall market turning to software and direct sales (much easier to download Ableton and start making music on day 1 rather than spend years learning guitar), the writing has been on the wall for large-scale brick and mortar operations in the music creation trade.

toby 6y ago

Thank you for introducing me to this concept. I hadn't heard of MAP and ended up reading about it. I had always assumed that a salesperson immediately offering me a discount, or that weird "price shown when you add to cart" pattern were just people being shady to increase conversion... while that may be true some of the time, I had no idea there was a legitimate reason why they might not tell you the "real" price upfront.

alisonkisk 6y ago
MAP isn't any less shady than the other behaviors.
- toby 6y ago
  Sorry I guess I misstated my point, MAP seems super shady, I just didn't realize that the other things I found shady were basically forced by MAP.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pantulis 6y ago

Regarding the Thomann competition, I am from Spain and constantly checking popular synthesizers and digital piano prices and the local shops advertise prices that are mostly on par with the german juggernaut. Thomann is great, but a decade ago they sent me a Korg synth with the printed manual in German, I guess this has changed. On the other hand, I prefer getting the package myself in the car, so as to avoid surprises when the thing arrives --I didn't have any issues with Thomann's courier, though.

S_A_P 6y ago
That is my preference as well, but in some cases Ive saved significant amounts by purchasing from Thomann or MusicStore.de. Im in the US, so the Minimum Advertised Price is the default unless you find a store that will work with you and offer a discount privately. Those exist, but not for every piece of gear(popular stuff usually wont get a discount, because why?) I feel like this is the kind of problem that is solve-able, but Im not quite sure how just yet. If I can figure it out, maybe there is a startup idea :)

iamthepieman 6y ago

What is MAP. That's a really hard term to search for so I'm not finding anything obviously relevant.

thatguy0900 6y ago
Minimum advertised price
redis_mlc 6y ago
MAP = Minimum Advertised Price Luxury manufacturers often demand that retailers sell at or above the MAP so that retailers don't undercut each other, and that the pricing reflect a marketing segmentation based on a pricing tier.

porknubbins 6y ago

Maybe missing some background but I’m curious what mainstream and de-contented mean in this context? I’ve heard the term prosumer referring to appliances like espresso machines, but with guitars would a $2000 Gibson be prosumer?

turbinerneiter 6y ago

What is MAP?

turbinerneiter 6y ago
Ah, found it, Minimum Advertised Price.

rossjudson 6y ago

Near as I can tell, Bain loaded up Guitar Center with a pile of debt, and that debt was one of the primary reasons it went into bankruptcy. I don't really understand how leveraged buyouts are legal, and I suppose I should learn a bit.