7 ms·

Great move! 30% is a case for antitrust given how big Apple App Store today is. 15% seems reasonable, 10% would be ideal. Though it should be 15% for everybod

Great move! 30% is a case for antitrust given how big Apple App Store today is. 15% seems reasonable, 10% would be ideal. Though it should be 15% for everybody, no artificial caps. Moreover, I believe once you become a platform there should be an independent nano-courthouse where you can appeal. Today being rejected by Apple, Amazon, or Google platform is equivalent to the economical death penalty for many individuals. It should be possible to pay $100 by individuals and appeal to an independent nano-courthouse if the original platform rejects or blocks you. If you win, the appeal fee is refunded and the platform has to cover the cost. If you lose, your $100 is gone. Fee could be adjusted to your earnings, but basic mechanism should stay the same.

varispeed 6y ago
15% is almost like state level tax. They shouldn't ask more than 5% or they should take payment per app review and take no sales commission. The app store is what makes their iPhones useful, so in my view they should be paying developers to make apps not the other way around.
- singemonkey 6y ago
  Tone can be hard to judge, so you should append the /s tag to make it clear you're joking, otherwise people are going to assume you mean it.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    What makes you think it is a joke? Happy to hear why you think 15% is reasonable.
    - HatchedLake721 6y ago
      Because by suggesting Apple pay developers to make apps and not the other way around you either don't know history, how markets and distribution work, or you're making a joke. You strategy played out very well in pre 2008 days with Windows Mobile. It also played out very well for Microsoft paying developers to create apps for Windows Phone, before Microsoft admitted defeat and left the phone market they were in since 1996. About the 15%. Have you tried running a business to make a living? Have you tried building something yourself? Have you tried selling it in 155 countries? Have you tried getting access to a market of 1+ billion people? Have you tried monitoring you don't breach regulations and tax thresholds in 155 countries? Have you tried registering for VAT MOSS in one of the EU countries? Have you tried implementing IP geo-location for your European customers, to charge a correct VAT amount out of 27 options?
      - varispeed 6y ago
        This is laughable. You can setup Shopify to sell your physical inventory worldwide plus get an invoicing solution that deals with MOSS etc. for fraction of what Apple charges for hosting a file in an app. Plus they don't allow competing app stores, so they can dictate these extortionate prices.
        HatchedLake721 6y ago
        I don't know what an e-commerce platform has to do with a distribution platform. Just because you can create a store with Shopify, or build a website with Wix, doesn't mean you get access to a marketplace with billion people in it. There's a reason why sellers want to be on Amazon, even when they have their own Shopify shops.
      - toyg 6y ago
        Once you get the foam out of your mouth, you could go and check how the various console markets were bootstrapped. Paying developers to make apps is just fine, if done well. Windows Mobile was undone by a number of mistakes (like rebuilding the platform 3 times from scratch), paying developers was not one of them. > about the 15% Yeah, about that. As it is, it’s monopoly rent (and before you bring up consoles - yes, there too). Nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I wouldn’t be happy with 5% or 1% either, because the point is not how you measure the tax, but the tax itself and the fact that it’s not set by the market. Once they allow third-party appstores they can charge 50% for all I care.
        HatchedLake721 6y ago
        It's very kind of you, but there's no foam coming out of my mouth. Thank you. Was BlackBerry undone by rebuilding the platform 3 times from scratch too? And Symbian too? > Paying developers to make apps is just fine, if done well. Of course. But it hasn't been done well in the mobile world, has it? So why is it relevant here? I remember pre 2008 when carriers controlled apps on phones. I also remember xda-developers days. Discoverability, distribution and quality was disaster compared to what we have today. And do you know what developers earned from their applications compared to today? People take marketplaces and what has been done in the last 10 years for granted.
    - singemonkey 6y ago
      Oh wow, my bad, I honestly thought you were joking. You may need to rethink your arguments as I found them indistinguishable from parody!!
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    It's not that crazy to think that Apple owes to the app developers, at least some of them. In the end, a lot of Apple customers would never have bought an iPhone if it couldn't run their essential apps (like Whatsapp, Spotify, Youtube, etc).
Leherenn 6y ago
I have to admit I don't understand this, all those numbers are completely arbitrary and seem to be based on what you think is right and not on any economic data. It seems to me the real question is whether the Apple App Store should be regulated or not. If it reaches the legal threshold to be regulated, then either they should open up to competition and let the market do the price discovery or be regulated like a utility and have the price set for them. If they don't reach the threshold, then they should be free to set whatever price they want, and you're free to go elsewhere if you don't like it. Of course, the big question is whether the app store reaches that threshold, but I'm not sure whether they charge 30% or 20 changes anything.
aikinai 6y ago
How do people come up with these arbitrary rates? How is 30% anticompetitive and 15% okay? 30% was standard long before the App Store, so why does Apple have to lower it now that they're the most profitable app platform?
- IshKebab 6y ago
  It's just consensus. 30% seems very large, 15% is tolerable. I don't think anyone liked 30% before either but anyone that can get away with charging 30% is probably already in a monopoly position so nobody has ever been able to do anything about it. Apple are only change now because of the threat of a lawsuit.
  - viktorcode 6y ago
    In fact, in 2008 many people liked 30%. Especially those who used to pay ~50% for getting into a mobile carrier store.
    - latortuga 6y ago
      As someone who graduated from college in 2008 let me tell you that 30% sounded basically like highway robbery to me and soured me on Apple for a lot of years. I refused to buy anything Apple related because I viewed (and still do) that 30% as abusive. Maybe folks in industry saw it differently but I definitely beg to differ.
forest_dweller 6y ago
> 30% is a case for antitrust given how big Apple App Store today is. 15% seems reasonable, 10% would be ideal. Not it isn't a case for anti-trust. 70/30 split whether people on here like it or not is a standard agreement for these types of business relationship. https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut-is-actually-the-industry-standard https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut... The judge in the case agreed. > Judge says the 30% rate is the industry rate— references Steam, Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo have the same rate. https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/09/28/judge-so-far-not-convinced-on-epics-antitrust-stance-in-fortnite-battle https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/09/28/judge-so-far-not-... Apple are effectively an affialite for your app i.e. they drive traffic to your app through their store. Most affiliate style relationships the affiliate will receive 30% of whatever is made. It not only these companies it in almost every industry. e.g. Gambling Affiliate deals typically have 30% of whatever the customer loses on the site. I really do not like Apple. I don't like the app store policies. But 30% is not a case for anything.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  >> 30% is a case for antitrust given how big Apple App Store today is. 15% seems reasonable, 10% would be ideal. > Not it isn't. 70/30 split whether people on here like it or not is a standard agreement for these types of business relationship. Huh? They didn't say "standard", they said "reasonable" and "ideal". > Apple are effectively an affialite for your app i.e. they drive traffic to your app through their store. The problem is that they charge that fee no matter where the customers come from, and you can't opt out either.
  - forest_dweller 6y ago
    > Huh? They didn't say "standard", they said "reasonable" and "ideal". I should have clarified. They was saying it (the 30%) was a case for antitrust. > The problem is that they charge that fee no matter where the customers come from, and you can't opt out either. Can they come from anywhere other than the actual store? In any event that is a different issue.
Qahlel 6y ago
%0 is ideal.

varispeed 6y ago

15% is almost like state level tax. They shouldn't ask more than 5% or they should take payment per app review and take no sales commission. The app store is what makes their iPhones useful, so in my view they should be paying developers to make apps not the other way around.

singemonkey 6y ago
Tone can be hard to judge, so you should append the /s tag to make it clear you're joking, otherwise people are going to assume you mean it.
- varispeed 6y ago
  What makes you think it is a joke? Happy to hear why you think 15% is reasonable.
  - HatchedLake721 6y ago
    Because by suggesting Apple pay developers to make apps and not the other way around you either don't know history, how markets and distribution work, or you're making a joke. You strategy played out very well in pre 2008 days with Windows Mobile. It also played out very well for Microsoft paying developers to create apps for Windows Phone, before Microsoft admitted defeat and left the phone market they were in since 1996. About the 15%. Have you tried running a business to make a living? Have you tried building something yourself? Have you tried selling it in 155 countries? Have you tried getting access to a market of 1+ billion people? Have you tried monitoring you don't breach regulations and tax thresholds in 155 countries? Have you tried registering for VAT MOSS in one of the EU countries? Have you tried implementing IP geo-location for your European customers, to charge a correct VAT amount out of 27 options?
    - varispeed 6y ago
      This is laughable. You can setup Shopify to sell your physical inventory worldwide plus get an invoicing solution that deals with MOSS etc. for fraction of what Apple charges for hosting a file in an app. Plus they don't allow competing app stores, so they can dictate these extortionate prices.
      - HatchedLake721 6y ago
        I don't know what an e-commerce platform has to do with a distribution platform. Just because you can create a store with Shopify, or build a website with Wix, doesn't mean you get access to a marketplace with billion people in it. There's a reason why sellers want to be on Amazon, even when they have their own Shopify shops.
    - toyg 6y ago
      Once you get the foam out of your mouth, you could go and check how the various console markets were bootstrapped. Paying developers to make apps is just fine, if done well. Windows Mobile was undone by a number of mistakes (like rebuilding the platform 3 times from scratch), paying developers was not one of them. > about the 15% Yeah, about that. As it is, it’s monopoly rent (and before you bring up consoles - yes, there too). Nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I wouldn’t be happy with 5% or 1% either, because the point is not how you measure the tax, but the tax itself and the fact that it’s not set by the market. Once they allow third-party appstores they can charge 50% for all I care.
      - HatchedLake721 6y ago
        It's very kind of you, but there's no foam coming out of my mouth. Thank you. Was BlackBerry undone by rebuilding the platform 3 times from scratch too? And Symbian too? > Paying developers to make apps is just fine, if done well. Of course. But it hasn't been done well in the mobile world, has it? So why is it relevant here? I remember pre 2008 when carriers controlled apps on phones. I also remember xda-developers days. Discoverability, distribution and quality was disaster compared to what we have today. And do you know what developers earned from their applications compared to today? People take marketplaces and what has been done in the last 10 years for granted.
  - singemonkey 6y ago
    Oh wow, my bad, I honestly thought you were joking. You may need to rethink your arguments as I found them indistinguishable from parody!!
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  It's not that crazy to think that Apple owes to the app developers, at least some of them. In the end, a lot of Apple customers would never have bought an iPhone if it couldn't run their essential apps (like Whatsapp, Spotify, Youtube, etc).

Leherenn 6y ago

I have to admit I don't understand this, all those numbers are completely arbitrary and seem to be based on what you think is right and not on any economic data. It seems to me the real question is whether the Apple App Store should be regulated or not. If it reaches the legal threshold to be regulated, then either they should open up to competition and let the market do the price discovery or be regulated like a utility and have the price set for them. If they don't reach the threshold, then they should be free to set whatever price they want, and you're free to go elsewhere if you don't like it. Of course, the big question is whether the app store reaches that threshold, but I'm not sure whether they charge 30% or 20 changes anything.

aikinai 6y ago

How do people come up with these arbitrary rates? How is 30% anticompetitive and 15% okay? 30% was standard long before the App Store, so why does Apple have to lower it now that they're the most profitable app platform?

IshKebab 6y ago
It's just consensus. 30% seems very large, 15% is tolerable. I don't think anyone liked 30% before either but anyone that can get away with charging 30% is probably already in a monopoly position so nobody has ever been able to do anything about it. Apple are only change now because of the threat of a lawsuit.
- viktorcode 6y ago
  In fact, in 2008 many people liked 30%. Especially those who used to pay ~50% for getting into a mobile carrier store.
  - latortuga 6y ago
    As someone who graduated from college in 2008 let me tell you that 30% sounded basically like highway robbery to me and soured me on Apple for a lot of years. I refused to buy anything Apple related because I viewed (and still do) that 30% as abusive. Maybe folks in industry saw it differently but I definitely beg to differ.

forest_dweller 6y ago

> 30% is a case for antitrust given how big Apple App Store today is. 15% seems reasonable, 10% would be ideal. Not it isn't a case for anti-trust. 70/30 split whether people on here like it or not is a standard agreement for these types of business relationship. https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut-is-actually-the-industry-standard https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut... The judge in the case agreed. > Judge says the 30% rate is the industry rate— references Steam, Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo have the same rate. https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/09/28/judge-so-far-not-convinced-on-epics-antitrust-stance-in-fortnite-battle https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/09/28/judge-so-far-not-... Apple are effectively an affialite for your app i.e. they drive traffic to your app through their store. Most affiliate style relationships the affiliate will receive 30% of whatever is made. It not only these companies it in almost every industry. e.g. Gambling Affiliate deals typically have 30% of whatever the customer loses on the site. I really do not like Apple. I don't like the app store policies. But 30% is not a case for anything.

Dylan16807 6y ago
>> 30% is a case for antitrust given how big Apple App Store today is. 15% seems reasonable, 10% would be ideal. > Not it isn't. 70/30 split whether people on here like it or not is a standard agreement for these types of business relationship. Huh? They didn't say "standard", they said "reasonable" and "ideal". > Apple are effectively an affialite for your app i.e. they drive traffic to your app through their store. The problem is that they charge that fee no matter where the customers come from, and you can't opt out either.
- forest_dweller 6y ago
  > Huh? They didn't say "standard", they said "reasonable" and "ideal". I should have clarified. They was saying it (the 30%) was a case for antitrust. > The problem is that they charge that fee no matter where the customers come from, and you can't opt out either. Can they come from anywhere other than the actual store? In any event that is a different issue.

Qahlel 6y ago

%0 is ideal.