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Why Italians don't drink a cappuccino after 11am [video]
- FanaHOVA 6y agoI'm Italian (now in the US), and I had some friends come visit in Italy a while ago, and went out to lunch with some of my family. One of my friends ordered a cappuccino mid-lunch and my family almost passed out :)
- yardie 6y agoI spent some time in Sicily and one of the things I discovered was I could not get pizza for lunch,only dinner. I thought it was just one restaurant being obstinate but town after it was the same response. And to this American who enjoyed a slice between classes I could not understand why. I concluded it was too hot and no one wanted to turn up the pizza oven. Is that correct assumption?
- simonh 6y agoTraditionally pizza dough should be made on the same day, but takes several time consuming stages and at least 3 hours to rise, so I suspect it’s just that the dough isn’t ready until later in the day.
- piaste 6y agoA lot of the better-quality pizzerias now offer a 48-hour dough option. IIRC the longer it is left to rise, the less yeast it requires, and the easier it is to digest.
- riffraff 6y agoThat is correct but traditional flour would not be strong enough for such leavening. Easy to digest pizza is a modern innovation.
- Skunkleton 6y agoNot an expert, but you should end up with more yeast in the end product for a long fermented dough. The yeast population will grow exponentially from whatever initial population was present. You should also end up with the sugars in the flour being more completely broken down into their byproducts (e.g. alcohol, co2).
- anuila 6y agoRestaurant owner in Italy here: We usually don’t offer pizza at lunchtime because it takes time and wood to fire up the oven and keep it at temperature. Low request volume means it’s not worth it, at least for small pizza places. If you want pizza for lunch you head to a bakery or “bar” and they have squares (not “slices”) ready for you to pick up.
- slim 6y agosorry for asking so bluntly, how did you discover HN ? I'm amazed by the diversity of this population
- anuila 6y agoTechnically it’s a family business that I grew up into and I ended up being a developer because at 14 I made the restaurant’s website with Macromedia Fireworks and Dreamweaver.
- pengaru 6y agoThe last time I was in Palermo with my OG Italian father we had Marinara pizzas and beer for lunch, there was nothing unusual about it. But pizza stuffs was the restaurant's clearly advertised purpose.
- bjourne 6y agoYes, you can get pizza for lunch in Italy. I know because I had it in Sorrento. :) But I had to insist on it (hey, it's on the menu!) and the owner grumbled something something about dumb tourists and about having to heat the oven and charged me extra for it.
- FanaHOVA 6y agoYou should get pizzas at pizza al taglio places, not restaurants, in the afternoon! :)
- jfengel 6y agoI arrived in Milan after two days traveling without sleep, found a restaurant for lunch, and asked for a coffee. "Yes, absolutely, right after lunch". I begged. He brought it to me, and was very nice about it. I am so sorry to put him through that. Fantastic meal, by the way. I had never understood risotto until then.
- crispyporkbites 6y agoIt’s hilarious how people are so ingrained in their culture that these things affect them so much. Like if I ate a roast dinner for breakfast or took a shower every lunch time, I’d be considered a madman. It sounds absolutely silly but really there’s few good reasons for most of our habits.
- mikelward 6y agoMy wife insists I'm not allowed to have curry for breakfast! :)
- phaemon 6y agoJust call it kedgeree!
- OJFord 6y agoWe'll wait, what are you calling 'curry'? Because British kedgeree (as kedgeree is) is distinct from what any Briton I know would call 'curry' - even given the disservice we do India by calling almost everything 'curry' - and further distinct even from khicadi (खिचड़ी) from which it takes its name, and moves to breakfast. Sorry, I know you were just joking.
- OJFord 6y agoWell* (missed edit window)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- reaperducer 6y agoIt sounds absolutely silly but really there’s few good reasons for most of our habits. The sign of a seasoned traveler is someone who enjoys the quirks of various cultures, instead of ridiculing them. One of the things that dismays me about the European Union is that each country seems to be losing its identity. Ditto for the United States.
- mikelward 6y agoI ordered an espresso macchiato in Naples around 12pm. Without saying anything, the barista gave me a plain espresso. Maybe they'd already packed the milk away for the day?
- 1_player 6y agoThey probably didn't understand. People drink macchiato all day long.
- Oletros 6y agoMy wife is Italian and she and her family drink cappuccino after lunch
- stuaxo 6y agoThere I was thinking it was because they haven't discovered the flat white.
- simonebrunozzi 6y ago20% of the video is an ad for a VPN. The remaining 80% could be summarized in 2-3 sentences. Do we really need a video?
- milansm 6y agoAnd these three sentences would be?
- huseyinkeles 6y agoThey are lactose intolerant.
- vile_wretch 6y agolactose malabsorption come on did you even watch the video Edit: Sorry I guess a /s was needed
- huseyinkeles 6y agoCalm down :) From the the hackernews guidelines; Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- vile_wretch 6y agoIt was a joke about the video...
- throwaway201103 6y agoI think there needs to be a much greater expectation that the answer to "did you read?" is "no" when the article is actually a video. I very rarely will click on a video link and I think it should be incumbent upon people posting them to provide a tl;dr.
- brainlessdev 6y agoIt's a good video, full of information. Ignore the snarky comment(s). Summarizing: - Italians in the North are less prone to lactose malabsorption than those in the South - They don't drink cappuccinos after 11 because it's heavy to digest - The video includes some information about why milk is hard to digest, and other things
- reaperducer 6y agoFor those of us who can't watch videos at work for various reasons, I wish every HN submission marked [Video] had a summary. Thank you.
- echelon 6y agoWhere do you work that you can't watch a video? What's the reason? Genuinely curious, not insulting/snarky.
- hombre_fatal 6y agoI'd feel silly casually watching fun Youtube videos at any office job where anybody could see my screen. So, most jobs I've had until I worked remotely. Browsing websites like HN is one thing. Youtube is over the top, like turning on Netflix. "Oh look, Chuck is watching Youtube again."
- toxik 6y agoA lot of youtube videos are short and basically small memes, they’ve circulated in every office I’ve ever been in. Netflix movies and series of the other hand, you can reference them but who has the time to watch something like a series? On the other hand I guess if it’s your lunch break, why not
- OJFord 6y agoI'd feel silly working at any office job where I couldn't casually watch a brief YouTube video or share one ith a colleague. I've only worked at one, (now mostly remote, pre-ncov) maybe I was spoilt, but, perhaps as a result, I wouldn't want to feel that I couldn't. I'm not operating factory machinery.
- romanoderoma 6y agoI'm Italian and have been having breakfast with caffellatte (milk and coffee) for all of my life, but am probably lactose intolerant on some degree. I just can't get the day started without the smell of breakfast. It all depends on what time you wake up, I wake up very late when I'm not working and have breakfast even if it's 2pm. No way I'm skipping it, if I'm out of latte, I go to a bar and have a cappuccino (milk for cappuccino is more creamy, so it taste better and make the popular foam, it's also a bit harder to digest but there's also less of it in a cappuccino than in a caffellatte) No shame in it, bars are there to serve not to judge. Contrary to what people believe you can ask for a cappuccino whenever you want in Italy, the only exception is meals, no cappuccino during lunch/dinner, no cappuccino immediately before or after it. Usually Italians don't have a cappuccino after a certain hour because bars run out of brioche (we call them cornetti) and a cappuccino without cornetto it's almost not worth it. And because if you have it to close to lunch or dinner, grandma is not gonna be happy that you are not eating your 30th fettina panata. But it's 2020 in Italy too and there are a lot of options for lactose intolerant, one is skimmed milk, another is lactose free milk They are both very populyar and every bar serve them. ---- @moderators ok this is getting a bit ridiculous. Few minutes in and the usual downvote arrives. Am I being targeted? There are downvotes I deserved or that are understandable, but lately they are coming as soon as I comment. On any topic, even the less popular (like this one) I'm not believing anymore it's coincidence.
- jimbokun 6y agoI don't know why you are being downvoted, this is the most on topic comment I've read so far.
- dahdum 6y agoNo reason to be downvoted that I can see. I checked your comment history and see a fair amount of on-topic constructive comments that were also downvoted (some you probably deserved).
- riffnote 6y agoI enjoyed reading your comment. As someone who has never been to Italy, I found it informative.
- Traster 6y agoI think people may have missed the point of the video (It's not just about why Italians don't drink a Cappuccino). If you want a deep dive into the science of all things coffee related all James' videos are well resesarched, well presented, and come from a person with a deep afinity for coffee.
- branweb 6y agoThe video's title is "Why Italians Don't Drink a Cappuccino After 11am". Seems like most people in these comments got it. What's the point of the video if not that?
- ryanmarsh 6y agoI was in Milan last Oct and everyone (it was a work thing) drank cappuccino each day after lunch. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- crispyporkbites 6y agoI highly doubt that.
- crispyporkbites 6y agoThis YouTube channel is excellent, I don’t even brew my own coffee yet the craftsmanship, detail and thought that goes into every video makes them all a delight to watch. Highly recommend if you want to relax and watch someone be consistently disappointed by coffee for 20 minutes every now and again.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tgb 6y agoOn a tangent, why don't we see much use of alternative sugars in cooking and baking? Refined sugar all seems to be sucrose. There are non-refined sugar sources like honey that aren't sucrose, but obviously honey also differs in many other characteristics from 'normal sugar'. I've never come across a recipe that calls for fructose, lactose, or glucose specifically and I don't think my store carries them in a refined state. Why not though?
- jnwatson 6y agoYou'll find lots of alternative sugars in keto/diabetes recipes.
- tgb 6y agoInteresting. I would have thought that all sugars would be out for keto diets.
- ksherlock 6y agocorn syrup is glucose. high fructose corn syrup is 40-90% fructose.
- tgb 6y agoYou're right, that's clearly a refined non-sucrose sugar. But I guess I'm thinking of granulated sugars, i.e. something that differs from white granulated sugar in "only" chemical composition (or as close to that as possible). Otherwise it's not clear to me that the choice is one of sugar molecule or one of other physical characteristics (like moisture content).
- x87678r 6y agoHonestly this seems BS. Italian Cappuccino cup is small - 6 fl oz. You can handle it at 11am but not 4pm? And as other commenters said, how come Gelato is OK?
- giardini 6y agoThe hypothesis of the video is that lactose intolerance is why they don't generally drink cappucinos after 11am. But even a small amount of milk can create a large amount of flatus (gas). And now you're back in the office, in the middle of a meeting. Come to think of it, not a bad idea: next time, cappucinos on the house at lunchtime for everyone! Maybe add a few milk-based Indian sweets to the snack tray too, for mutual enjoyment. Serve it all up "tout suite!" as the French say!
- rurban 6y agoTraditional italians (more in the south nowadays) don't go into the office after lunch. They are doing their siesta, and just work longer after their sleep. I'm doing the same for the last years. So my italian lunch coffee (I got a proper machine) with crema helps me to digest my meal. But the siesta much more. But no Cappuccino after 3 of course. Of my family two are lactose tolerant, and two not. Makes major differences in the milk used.
- toyg 6y agoYou are describing a long lunch break that has basically disappeared in most of the country. It survives almost exclusively among shopkeepers, who often will shut shop 12 to 3 or 12 to 4 (or even to 5, in tourist towns where they expect to work through the evening) and some extremely inefficient public services.
- branweb 6y agoYes exactly. I was wondering if I was misunderstanding something. If lactose intolerance (or malabosorbtion or whatever) is the problem, that seems unrelated to an 11am cutoff time. Would seem more reasonable to not drink milk-based coffee drinks at all or drink them towards the end of the day at home, etc. Also the tangent about stopping caffeine consumption at a particular time soas not to interfere with sleep seemed unrelated too.
- paganel 6y agoItalians have indeed the best espressos/ristrettos that I've ever had the pleasure of drinking, but other than that the origin coffee culture is pretty much non-existing in Northern Italy (I've never been to the South). Comparatively speaking Milano is a desert when it comes to origin coffee shops, and the same goes for their hip neighbours across the Alps, i.e. Paris. From my direct experience European cities further East and North fare much better, I can say that with first-hand experience about the city I live in (Bucharest) and about Bratislava, too (which I've found to be better compared to Vienna). I've also heard/read very good things about Budapest and Berlin, and (as an exception to my first part of the post) I've found coffee shops in the Chamberí district of Madrid to be serving quite good coffee. All this to say that the Italians do not have the monopoly on saying how one should drink his/her coffee or not, for the simple fact that the Italians mostly only care about a small sub-set of coffee culture (i.e. espressos/ristrettos)
- hvdfhbj 6y agoAs an Australian I've had a terrible time finding a decent cup of coffee in Europe (Italy excepted, but even then the standards aren't great). I admit I haven't been to Budapest or Bratislava but I've been to some of the supposedly-best places in Berlin and been pretty disappointed. A shocking fraction of them use UHT milk.
- flybrand 6y agoAnd never a flat white to be found. Sydney, Melbourne - great coffee culture when we lived there in ‘08, better than EU.
- NamTaf 6y agoAustralian coffee culture is genuinely amongst the best in the world. Traveling elsewhere is always involves the bittersweet sacrifice of good quality coffee for several weeks, with the rare exceptions that punctuate that time savoured very much indeed. I'm sure I'm biased, but there's a hell of a lot of good supporting anecdata backing it up.
- 6y ago
- mirekrusin 6y agoYou can use oat milk.
- hvdfhbj 6y agoIf you want your coffee to taste like oatmeal, yes.
- FalconSensei 6y agoI partly agree with that. Although oat milk is not that strong in flavor as almond milk (at least for me), cappuccinos are very dependent on the milk used, to get the right texture, as opposed to just coffee+milk. So yeah, depending on the type of milk used, the results can go from great, to meh, to just "that doesn't feel like a cappuccino"
- mirekrusin 6y agoPersonally I much perfer oat milk coffee than cow milk coffee, maybe depends on the brand? I'm using Karma brand from Switzerland's COOP.
- bigwheeler 6y agoThis is true. Oatly actually makes a “Barista Blend” that foams up perfectly for cappuccinos or lattes.
- dukeofdoom 6y agoHere in Canada the best one I found is called "Earth's Own". Its gluten free, and has a very mild flavour. The taste of coffee can be improved a little bit buy sprinkling cocoa power into the foam of the oat milk. And optionally adding honey for sweetness. Oat milk tastes a little different than regular milk. But its very close and foams very well. There might some difference, because I noticed the coffee would hit a little bit stronger with oat milk. Perhaps there's some chemistry going ... don't know why. But the reason I switched, is because I was getting stomach cramps about once a month from cow's milk in my coffee. Would ruin my day. The only thing that help me with the stomach cramps was a bowl of rice for some reason. Decided to try other milks to see if would fix my problem and it did. Never liked any other kinds of milk until oat milk. They add lots of chalk to the nut milks. So with oat milk you can avoid that too. The only downside is the price.
- giuliomagnifico 6y agoWell I’m Italian and I drink Cappuccino at every hour... I don’t have troubles with lactose but there’s absolutely no “rules” to don’t drink cappuccino at 4PM or 8PM. More often people in Italy make breakfast with brioches and cappuccino, but just because the coffee here is veeery small compared to American coffe.
- 1_player 6y agoThere's no rules, but you still might get the stink eye. The same stink eye you might get by ordering a 'Campari col bianco' at 6am not wearing a bricklayer outfit.
- amelius 6y agoHow many Italian cafes/restaurants serve cappuccinos after 11am?
- ardit33 6y agoI don't think this is quiet correct. I am Albanian, and we drink coffee all the time, even in the evening. Even in coastal towns in the south (which is next to greece and south italy). We also use lots of butter/cheese and produce/use lots of Olive Oil as well. Growing up as kids, bread and olive oil, was a common breakfast/snack. We just don't have any rules on can't have coffee after a meal. The main reason some places would stop serving coffee after 7pm is because they switch into 'bars', and they'd rather sell alcoholic drinks to make more profit. Many coffee only houses stay open past 10pm, especially in the summer. It seems this 'don't drink cappuccinos after a certain hour' is mostly a cultural thing.
- StavrosK 6y agoHey neighbor! Greek here, I can confirm we do the same as all the above.
- k__ 6y agoMy brother in law is from Marocco and always drinks coffee too.
- izietto 6y agoItalian here. We don't usually have cappuccino after 12pm because cappuccino is a breakfast meal. We do have coffee after 12pm tho. For Italian people, cappuccino toghether with lunch / dinner is a taboo, it's like broccoli ice cream we can say :)
- 1_player 6y agoIt's just milky drinks in general. I always found it weird to see people having milk with lunch in American TV shows. Its sweetness doesn't pair well with saltier lunch and dinner time food. It's not a lactose intolerance problem at all.
- nojokes 6y agoWhen I was child then I liked milk with everything.
- znpy 6y agoI had already seen that video and I call bs. Claiming lactose malabsorption is a very strong claim, considering it's backed by pretty much no evidence at all. It's really, really bs. And this is not about being Italian or not (full disclosure: I am). We have a lot of milk-based or dairy-based products even in the evening or for dinner (I just had pasta with gorgonzola cheese). Pastries too! Tiramisù is very common in restaurants, and half of it is mascarpone cheese. Again, this video is bullshit.
- 1_player 6y agoIt's bollocks, it's just a taste thing. Like I said on another comment, cappuccino works for breakfast because it's sweet (mostly because of the milk), which pairs well with a 'cornetto' (jam croissant). Personally I'm not a fan of milk and much prefer espresso, and I'm not lactose intolerant. Lunch and dinner are salty food, and there's no place for milky drinks. In fact, drinking milk in general is just a breakfast thing for most Italians - perhaps as an afternoon snack with some Nutella when you're a kid.
- tinco 6y agoWeird, lots of people drink milk with their lunch here in The Netherlands, and I'm pretty sure the Germans do as well. Then again I feel our bread and toppings might be less salty. Young cheese and cold cuts, less intense flavours, less greens also.
- gattilorenz 6y agoIndeed, Italians find that... weird :) But so it's the whole Dutch lunch for an Italian (bread, butter and hagelslag wouldn't even be considered a meal, I think)
- davidw 6y agoYeah, I went out plenty of times for a gelato after dinner in the summer, when I lived in Padova.
- SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago
- jrussino 6y ago"Milk does not keep for very long in a warm environment" (3:39) This was the explanation I was given, and it seems simpler to me: the addition of milk to coffee predates widespread refrigeration. Cows are milked in the morning, and fresh (unprocessed) milk will only be good for a few hours. Thus people only put milk in their coffee in the morning. This eventually becomes customary, and the custom is retained even after its original justification is removed (as with countless other culinary customs).
- dandare 6y agoCan you recommend a good source of information on personal nutrition? Actually, how much scientific consensus is there on nutrition and health, other than "eat healthy and varied diet"?
- pengaru 6y agoThis is total nonsense if my upbringing in an Italian-American household is any indication.
- SeanLuke 6y agoI do not buy the conclusions in this video. For a couple of reasons. First off, anecdote. I myself am severely lactose intolerant, which I inherited genetically. I have lived in Italy and know Italians pretty well, and in my experience lactose intolerance is so unusual in Italy that people are often amazed to hear of my condition. Lactase (Lactaid etc.) is quite rare in the country, so much so that I usually bring in large quantities when I fly there. Granted, my experience is largely in the north, but I have also lived for quite some time in Rome. Italians eat a fair bit of high-lactose foods (cream; cappucino, young and soft cheeses, mmmm, squaquerone; certain pasta dishes; and of course gelato) and I have never seen a complaint, while I myself have to be careful around all of them. But second, as far as I understand it, the claim that Italians are lactose intolerant is not supported by current evidence. Studies in the 1980s in support of the hypothesis were largely based on self-diagnosis, which anyone who knows Italians ("Colpo D'aria") realizes is fraught with problems. It is my understanding that later and much better studies have suggested that lactose intolerance in Italy is far lower than suggested 40 years ago. http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2016/12/italians-arent-lactose-intolerant.html http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2016/12/italians-arent-lacto...
- johnzim 6y agoColpo d’aria on its own is the example I give to anyone who wants to know why Italians can be so stubborn. People normally are astonished when I explain that that’s pretty much the only reason why air conditioners have historically been so thin on the ground in even the stifling heat of Roman summer.
- jonsno56 6y agoI’m gonna drop my $.02 in here because I am SEVERELY lactose intolerant and would like to discuss with someone else who is lactose intolerant. (This comment is unrelated to the video) I usually use 2-4 lactaid capsules when eating dairy and sometimes 8 when it’s some super cheesy pizza or something. I live in the United States. I visited Italy last year, and I ate a lot of ice cream, cheesy pastas, and pizzas without any problems. Same with my father and uncle who are lactose intolerant. Do you know if there’s anything different about Italian dairy vs American dairy? I recognize my experience is super anecdotal, but it’s quite funny as my uncle, my father, and I got cocky about our ability to eat US dairy after coming home from Italy and immediately regretted it! So yeah, we’re definitely lactose intolerant Here’s also this silly link I just got off of google: https://www.wantedinrome.com/news/living-with-lactose-intolerance-in-italy-vs-the-united-states.html https://www.wantedinrome.com/news/living-with-lactose-intole...
- forgingahead 6y agoThis seems more cultural than any actual basis in fact. If you enjoy scandalising Italians, order cappuccinos in the afternoon, and you can also ask for tabasco sauce to go with your pizza.
- eibit 6y agoI'm Italian, living in a large town in the north (Turin). Yes, you can have a cappuccino in the afternoon, even in the night. Yes, we can eat a pizza at lunch time. No, we don't have siesta, but one hour stop for lunch. An yes, when I was a kid, my mother gave me a cup of milk before going to sleep. Are any other stereotypes that we can dismiss?
- ghego1 6y agoI am italian, I am slightly lactose intolerant, and I think this video is both terribly wrong and quite offensive. First, the whole thing is based on a wrong assumption. It is not true that italians do not drink cappuccino after 11 o clock. This should be rephrased as follows: "why italians do not drink cappuccino after breakfast, whenever that is". I'll give you the quickest example I can think of. When I was way younger, on holidays I would go party in the night and wake up way late and I would have breakfast very late, let's say at the time of lunch. I would still order a cappuccino if I felt like it. That's because, is short, time is... relative! The same applies of course to anyone having night shifts and any other scenario you can think of. To support the first argument I'll also add that italians would never have a cappuccino after they had breakfast, even if it's still early in the morning. Usually an Italian will have a cappuccino early before work, and then a coffee in the coffee break at mid morning. I wouldn't imagine that anyone would get a cappuccino then, even if it's before 11 am, and even if they did not have a cappuccino before. So why do italians do no drink cappuccino after breakfast? Simply put, for the same reason in any given meal in western culture no one would eat the desert before the main course in any given meal. I would say it's a cultural thing, but we can call it as we want, the only sure thing is that it has nothing to do with lactose. Before anyone replies that the order of servings in meals is not comparable to the time at which is admissible to drink cappuccino, please consider that we italians are very very very observant/proud/aware of what/when we eat. In Italy there are hundreds of other non written rules like this for many other types of food, and like this one, most of them are part of the culture. There are literally too many examples to make, so I'll give you just this: go to Bologna and ask for some spaghetti with the bolognese sauce. If you are lucky they'll simply call you a "tourist". The bolognese sauce can be put on any kind of pasta, except spaghetti. This is very little known and the weirdest part is that all around the world the bolognese sauce became famous with the spaghetti, but I can assure you that no one from bologna will ever have the bolognese sauce on spaghetti. Why? In the end is only a cultural thing. Even if I must add that saying that it's only a cultural thing makes me feel dirty, because putting the bolognese sauce on spaghetti is actually a sin. Having said that, I hope the message got through and please, do enjoy food, especially italian food, whenever you feel like it and however you like it!
- ravem 6y agoI'm Italian, and completely lactose intolerant (since four years). We don't drink it after 11pm because cappuccino is essentially a breakfast drink and that's all. Asking for it in some places at the wrong time automatically define you as a foreigner and/or maybe a weird customer. Asking for a caffè macchiato is a different story, you can have it whenever you want, and it's quite common. If you're lactose intolerant ask for soy (more available) or almond milk (less available) for your cappuccino/macchiato, they are available almost everywhere.