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I disagree. I see a narcissist and a buffoon when I look at Trump, but none of his behavior validates anything close to the crazed response we see from the prim

I disagree. I see a narcissist and a buffoon when I look at Trump, but none of his behavior validates anything close to the crazed response we see from the primarily left-leaning mainstream media. It's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. It was like this during the Bush years as well, though they do seem to have perfected it.

csnover 6y ago
What would have to be true in order for you to feel that the media response to Trump’s presidency has been appropriate?
- tetrometal 6y ago
  Well, they've been presenting him as a fascist authoritarian for four years, so if that were true I'd be inclined to believe their response was appropriate.
  - gwbas1c 6y ago
    Trump actively campaigned as the "law and order" president. That is, by definition, fascist and authoritarian.
    - syril 6y ago
      Facism is law and order? Hm... doesn't sound all that bad.
  - matthewdgreen 6y ago
    He was repeatedly asked if he would support the peaceful transfer of power if he lost, and he repeatedly refused to do so. That’s pretty much as authoritarian as you get.
    - tetrometal 6y ago
      This is such a blatantly false framing that it's impossible for me to believe you're presenting it in good faith.
      - shadowgovt 6y ago
        It's pretty much the standard interpretation. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/09/24/trump-transition-us-election-perilous-presidential-handoff-refuse-peaceful/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/09/24/trump-transition-us-ele...
      - mewse 6y ago
        I am very interested in seeing a “good faith” framing of his statements on the topic from you. Can you provide one?
        svrb 6y ago
        Not GP commenter, but here's one: The "will you support a peaceful transition of power" question is designed to elicit a response which could be quoted out of context in an article inevitably headlined "Trump predicts his own election defeat; already musing about transfer of power to his Democratic challenger". For any politician to answer a question posed this way would be disaster. Trump's unique problem is that he simply refuses to answer the question rather than giving a non-answer with the appearance of substance. Whether this is by choice or because he can't pull off that common trick is perhaps debatable. (Before downvoting/flagging, please recognize that this answer is not exclusive of other explanations such as "Trump really does have dictatorial ambitions". I take no position on such non-falsifiable claims.) This is very similar to George W Bush's "fool me twice... I won't get fooled again" gaffe. Had he completed the quote properly he could never have escaped the clips of saying "shame on me" taken out of context (remember this is before the days of deepfakes; now it would matter much less). This was predictably spun as "Dubya is stupid!" but frankly to recognize mid-quip the minefield he was about to step in is a feat beyond the average person. Of course the difference is (again) that unlike Bush, Trump really leaves open the possibility that he really is incompetent as opposed to the 5-dimensional chess that anyone supporting him really hopes he's playing.
  - wokwokwok 6y ago
    Is it appropriate now he’s declaring the democratic election invalid? That’s what fascism is, you realise? This really cuts to the heart of it; what does it take to get someone to change their views, when the facts don’t work? Even if you disagree with a democratic agenda, how can you in good conscience continue to support someone who is blatantly acting like a fascist dictator right now? I personally find it easy to distinguish Trump, who I consider an waste of air, and the GOP, who has an agenda I can appreciate. Why is that so difficult to do?
    - adnzzzzZ 6y ago
      When vote counts suddenly stop and then overnight the opponent starts surging, people tend to assume foul play is at hand. This is how it happens everywhere where an actual authoritarian cheats to stay in power, for instance: https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1186630753523818502 https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1186630753523818502. For you to not understand something like this is grounds for people to question the validity of elections all over the world means that you don't understand much about the world, let alone what's happening in your own country. And I speak about this as a non-American who's simply watching it. You're being brainwashed by your media into believing things that aren't true.
      - shadowgovt 6y ago
        The vote count turn is unsurprising since the in-person ballots could be quickly tallied while the mail-in ballots had to be hand-counted. The reason the two types of balloting had such a difference in party-support is that the President in the Republican party had been telling his supporters not to use mail-in balloting because it would be rife with fraud. People took him at his word on that side of the political divide, so there's a resulting bias in the likely candidate supported by the mail-in ballots.
        lol2143651 6y ago
        Hand counted, in the middle of the night, with no poll watchers around...
  - newacct583 6y ago
    > Well, they've been presenting him as a fascist authoritarian for four years He literally called them the "enemies of the state". He routinely calls for the prosecution of his political enemies, and has apparently directed his own Department of Justice to that effect. I mean, sure, it's true that he may not "be" a fascist authoritarian. But he sure acts like one. Is it wrong to report that?
    - qdiencdxqd 6y ago
      he said "enemies of the people"
      - arbitrary_name 6y ago
        Oh yes, that makes it ok then. Carry on...
        somelikeithot 6y ago
        Yeah and they are, problem?
  - csnover 6y ago
    Trump said he would only accept the result of an election if he wins it, way back in 2016[0]; he has a pattern of firing anyone who doesn’t do or say exactly what he wants, especially when it comes to persecuting his perceived enemies[1]; he’s used his presidential power to commute the sentences of members of his personal circle who are tried and convicted of crimes[2]; he’s called into question, without evidence, the integrity of American elections[3], since even before he was the president[4]; he constantly attacks the credibility of the free press[5][6], more recently questioning even the reporting of Fox News[7][8]; he bypasses congressional checks on his appointments[9]; he has deployed the military against peaceful protesters and threatened to violate the Posse Comitatus Act[10]; his White House is being investigated for politicising the FDA and CDC[11]; last month he authorised a new executive order that would enable him to more easily fire government employees[12]; he refused to just say that he would commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses[13]. If this is not sufficient evidence that Trump is a proto-fascist authoritarian, what more would be needed, in your mind, to meet that bar? Or, perhaps putting it another way, can you explain to me how all of this stuff is cool and normal and not a clear pattern of proto-fascist authoritarianism? I did my best here to source examples from multiple media outlets in order to try to mitigate against the paradox that your main complaint is that the media is distorting the truth. Once someone decides that, not just one source, but the entire media apparatus is lying, it’s incredibly difficult to source information in a way which is acceptable—which is why a free press is so important, and why it’s particularly dangerous that Trump and his party have been spending so much energy on undermining it. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQJzt48wXbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQJzt48wXbA [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/all-the-presidents-disloyal-men-trump-demands-loyalty-but-inspires-very-little/2020/01/29/2d5eb2ec-4206-11ea-b503-2b077c436617_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/all-the-presidents-d... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-pardons-commutations.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-pardons-commutations.h... [3] https://nypost.com/2020/11/05/trump-to-speak-from-white-house-as-vote-count-leans-toward-biden/ https://nypost.com/2020/11/05/trump-to-speak-from-white-hous... [4] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/rigged-election-donald-trumps-long-history-of-polls-fraud-claims/articleshow/79038530.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/worl... [5] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lesley-stahl-donald-trump-said-attacking-press-to-discredit-negative-stories/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lesley-stahl-donald-trump-said-... [6] https://cpj.org/reports/2020/04/trump-media-attacks-credibility-leaks/ https://cpj.org/reports/2020/04/trump-media-attacks-credibil... [7] https://www.thewrap.com/trump-attacks-fox-election-day/ https://www.thewrap.com/trump-attacks-fox-election-day/ [8] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-attacks-fox-news-reporter-after-she-backs-up-key-details-of-atlantic-story/ar-BB18JQSh https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-attacks-fox-ne... [9] https://www.npr.org/2020/03/09/813577462/how-trump-has-filled-high-level-jobs-without-senate-confirmation https://www.npr.org/2020/03/09/813577462/how-trump-has-fille... [10] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-mobilizes-military-threatens-to-use-troops-to-quell-protests-across-us/2020/06/01/10212832-a416-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-mobilizes-mili... [11] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-coronavirus-cdc-fda-investigation-covid-19-b1160766.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... [12] https://www.globalgovernmentforum.com/trump-extend-hire-fire-powers-over-civil-service/ https://www.globalgovernmentforum.com/trump-extend-hire-fire... [13] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ2AvqLSjSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ2AvqLSjSs
  - trumpaway 6y ago
    I think Trump has many character flaws (and that's putting it lightly), did many not-so-good things, etc. It is fine that this is highlighted by the mainstream media. My main problem is that the same treatment is not applied to the democrats. This means that in order to find similar stories from the other side, one needs to start (1) reading extremist-leaning news. These also contain many half-truths and outright lies, so on top of that one has to (2) try to verify themselves the veracity of those claims. Most people don't have the time to do that (obviously), so they stop at the first step.
- jtdev 6y ago
  Have you not been watching? They literally manufactured a Russia collusion story and then spent 4 years beating Trump over the head with it. Then they orchestrated a hijacking of the Democratic primary to prevent Bernie from being on the ticket. Trump is a despicable human, to a degree only surpassed by the folks running and representing American media.
  - homero 6y ago
    I see russian bots commenting on Facebook all day every day for the last 4 years. Today one glitched and commented on a completely unrelated post under the name "hispanics for Trump" on a post for a car.
    - jtdev 6y ago
      Russian bots... the lefts favorite cop out argument of 2020. Please provide an example, otherwise your claims are nothing but rhetoric.
      - sizt 6y ago
        This is HNN.
      - homero 6y ago
        It's everywhere online https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/08/twitter-bots-use-likes-rts-for-intimidation/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/08/twitter-bots-use-likes-r...
      - tunesmith 6y ago
        You seriously believe it hasn't happened?
      - artofgo 6y ago
        Dude, there actually are Twitter bots every where. I see multiple accounts posting the same exact tweet over and over. You look at their profile and its a obvious its manufactured history. Have you even tried looking?
- odessacubbage 6y ago
  he would've have actually had to consolidate power in any kind of meaningful way instead of simply bumbling through the logical continuation of bush/obama policies while being undermined by the intel community/ his own generals and the the gop itself every time he tried to do anything that broke from neocon consensus. his own justices even repudiated him. ironically, an actual fascist would've used the pandemic as his own reichstag fire, seized power & curtailed liberties to effectively contain the virus instead of simply mismanaging a dysfunctional, under supplied & under funded federal health apparatus that effectively let the states just do whatever. italy had tanks in the streets, south korea and taiwan created invasive ethically dubious surveillance programs to control movement. the actual white supremacists are mad that trump didn't do exactly that. aside from the bizarre alternative-universe psychodrama that corporate media has been airing for the past years, trump in reality was basically just unremarkable and incompetent.
  - sgustard 6y ago
    I agree Trump is much more of a "proof of concept" of how an actual fascist could operate. Instead, as you say, he is blisteringly incompetent and lazy. Remember he accidentally became president when all he wanted was to build a hotel in Moscow. His tweets clearly show the mindset of someone who wants to use levers of power which are massively beyond his constitutional powers (shut down the media, overthrow elections, imprison critics). But he had neither the energy or the political skill to accomplish any of that. What he did have was the ability to convince millions of people that the US government should be turned over to a TV reality clown.
tbwriting 6y ago
His inaction and obfuscation caused thousands and thousands of people to die from COVID. He publicly condoned shooting unarmed protesters, and let his DOJ kidnap people in unmarked vans. He left the Paris climate accords. These are catastrophic.
- newacct583 6y ago
  For seven weeks in 2017 it was the official policy of our government to remove migrant children of all ages from their parents and house them in a cage. Even now the inevitable bureaucratic messups have lost some of these kids; it's possible these families will literally never be whole again. Everyone has their own horrors I guess, but this was what did it for me.
  - z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
    But not the murder of innocent civilians from obama and bidens massively expanded drone bombings right? That never triggered you at all
  - whatanattitude 6y ago
    Obama started this.
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/fact-check-did-obama-administration-separate-families-n884856 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/... > The idea that this is simply a continuation of an Obama-era practice is "preposterous," said Denise Gilman, director of the Immigration Clinic at the University of Texas Law School. "There were occasionally instances where you would find a separated family — maybe like one every six months to a year — and that was usually because there had been some actual individualized concern that there was a trafficking situation or that the parent wasn’t actually the parent." > Once custody concerns were resolved, "there was pretty immediately reunification," Gilman told NBC News. "There were not 2,000 kids in two months — it’s not the same universe," she added. That's not to say that the Obama administration didn't do some other cruel things to migrant families in an effort to deter them. Some of which got smacked back down by the courts, too. But separating families as a matter of policy was not one of those policies.
tw04 6y ago
None of it? We'll even ignore the easy ones like violating the emoluments clause and blatant nepotism. Withholding aid to Puerto Rico. Calling for the governor of Michigan to be locked up for implementing covid restrictions then refusing to condemn the folks that attempted to kidnap her. Charlottesville. Sending in Federal Police to kidnap folks in Portland. Refusing to impose sanctions on Russia that had bipartisan support. Refusing to condemn Russia for assassinating citizens of other nations with chemical weapons. Jamaal kashoggi. Saluting North Korean soldiers. Outright telling governor's he was withholding Federal aid unless they did him favors. Etc, etc, etc. "left-leaning media" has absolutely nothing to do with his train wreck of a presidency. I don't think he managed to go a single month over the last 4 years without violating the Constitution.
LordHumungous 6y ago
At least there were actual catastrophes caused by Bush. Under Trump it was conspiracy theories about Russian collusion.
- weakfish 6y ago
  So covid response wasn't a catastrophe? Ok
  - d357r0y3r 6y ago
    I'm not sure if it was, really. What's the baseline? If Biden was President, how many people would have died instead? More than 0, right? The United States has structural issues, many of them features and not bugs, that make a coordinated effort to suppress a contagious virus basically impossible. Biden never made the case for what he would have done different; he didn't really have to. That's the thing about a crisis. When your opponent is in charge during a crisis, you can always say he was incompetent, and no one can prove that you're wrong.
    - tunesmith 6y ago
      There were recent headlines on a study done that estimated unnecessary deaths; deaths that wouldn't have happened had we had a reasonable response. Should be easy to find.
      - d357r0y3r 6y ago
        I know we're in like, mystical "follow the science" land, but any study on this matter can really only make projections based on a model. It certainly can't say what Biden would have called a "reasonable response" at the time, whether he would have followed through on it, etc. We actually know what Biden was saying to do in the early days of the pandemic, and Trump's earliest actions were roundly criticized by Democrats. My theory is that if Trump had come out hard for lockdown early on, Republicans would be pro-lockdown and Democrats would be anti-lockdown. I view the partisan divide on COVID handling as...well, purely partisan.
apex3stoker 6y ago
The mainstream media provide unlimited and free ads to Trump. Trump is a savvy marketer. He plays the mainstream media like a fiddle. The outrageous remarks he said or tweeted are reported relentlessly by the mainstream media. The way I see it is that whatever Trump said or tweeted are like campaign ads. What the mainstream media have been doing is nothing but playing campaign ads with rebuttals. The relationship between Trump and the mainstream media is pretty symbiotic. The things that the mainstream media have not reported enough is his corruption and incompetency. Instead, they constantly chase after his remarks. I will give you an example. The way USPS is undermined is nothing but sabotage. Trump and his officials claimed that they run USPS like business. The mainstream media simply reported it along this frame. However, no reasonable business would run like what they did to USPS. Besides, the moment they claimed that they would revert the changes, the mainstream simply reported what they said. No, they didn't revert their changes. By reading mainstream media news casually, we wouldn't know that USPS was sabotaged. Many people think that Trump administration simply tried to run USPS like business but they decided not to due to opposition. The reality is that USPS was sabotaged and the damage is done.
- kbenson 6y ago
  I'm not sure what you are referring to as the mainstream media. There were weeks of articles about USPS and how there were problems. There were years of reporting about collusion and corruption with regard to Russia and other scandals. Whether you were looking at Fox or at NY Times or WaPo or CNN or whatever, whether it was for or against, there was neverending coverage about the Trump scandal of the week, and that Trump's explanations were BS. The problem wasn't lack or reporting or criticizing Trump, it was that there was always a new scandal every week that needed coverage.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - apex3stoker 6y ago
    I refer to virtually all outlets except the conservative ones (e.g. the ones you listed except Fox). As I said, the problem with the coverage is that it is based on their framing, i.e. running USPS like a business. There are so many articles about whether USPS should be run like a business because of this framing. This is a false permise. Trump administration simply co-opted "business" for sabotage. Mainstream media fell into the trap. By arguing whether USPS should be run like business leads to the impression that Trump administration was running USPS like a business. Also, there are many articles in which if we read beyond headlines, we would find comments from opponents of Trump that Trump administration sabotaging USPS. This is merely both-side-ism at work. To learn the truth, one needs to already distrust Trump and disregard their statements. Then, all of a sudden Trump administration said that they would suspend/revert the changes. The mainstream media all rushed to report the statements, even though they were lies. There were no reporting of similar scale once the lies were uncovered. This is also the reason why Bill Barr was able to destroy Mueller's investigation - by first lying that there was no wrongdoings to gain enormous coverage and then escape scrutiny when truth was uncovered due to subdue coverage. As I also said, the mainstream media knew that Trump administration lies consistently. They should really ignore what they said and simply report what they do and don't do. In summary, the mainstream media are really poor in conveying the big picture because Trump administration successfully hacks them and because they are unable to adapt to this adversary.
adamsea 6y ago
> ... none of his behavior validates anything close to the crazed response we see from the primarily left-leaning mainstream media. Yeah no ... at this point if you honestly still believe that, we have to agree to disagree, and I'm glad that more people in America disagree with you than agree with you.
zjs 6y ago
> It's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. I've looked at a few definitions, and I don't see how it's an accurate description of what's happening here. For example: “Catastrophizing is a cognitive distortion that prompts people to jump to the worst possible conclusion, usually with very limited information or objective reason to despair. When a situation is upsetting, but not necessarily catastrophic, they still feel like they are in the midst of a crisis.” (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/catastrophizing https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/catastrophizing) We have experienced “great damage or suffering” (i.e., catastrophes), not merely upsetting situations. The media hasn't been catastrophizing; they've been reporting about catastrophes.
- mlindner 6y ago
  What are the "catastrophes" that you have experienced (disregarding COVID which is a world catastrophe)?
chronofar 6y ago
> It's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. It was like this during the Bush years as well, though they do seem to have perfected it. And the Republicans did the same thing with Obama, which is why he is so reviled among the right. The pendulum swings harder at each cycle, and how people still cannot see how thoroughly they're being manipulated by their party of choice continues to astound me. I get the tribalism, and I get the basic cognitive gears at play, but it takes only a modicum of self awareness and attempted empathy to understand the other side enough to open up the door to doubt, and only the tiniest degree of curiosity to find more nuanced understanding of issues at play. I do see this in some places, but I see ignorant partisan propaganda far more, and the pendulum swings ever harder. The devil is the one we make, seemingly blind to the ingredients we carelessly continue to throw into the cauldron that will continue to produce them, even as one group rejoices that the latest one has been defeated.

csnover 6y ago

What would have to be true in order for you to feel that the media response to Trump’s presidency has been appropriate?

tetrometal 6y ago
Well, they've been presenting him as a fascist authoritarian for four years, so if that were true I'd be inclined to believe their response was appropriate.
- gwbas1c 6y ago
  Trump actively campaigned as the "law and order" president. That is, by definition, fascist and authoritarian.
  - syril 6y ago
    Facism is law and order? Hm... doesn't sound all that bad.
- matthewdgreen 6y ago
  He was repeatedly asked if he would support the peaceful transfer of power if he lost, and he repeatedly refused to do so. That’s pretty much as authoritarian as you get.
  - tetrometal 6y ago
    This is such a blatantly false framing that it's impossible for me to believe you're presenting it in good faith.
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      It's pretty much the standard interpretation. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/09/24/trump-transition-us-election-perilous-presidential-handoff-refuse-peaceful/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/09/24/trump-transition-us-ele...
    - mewse 6y ago
      I am very interested in seeing a “good faith” framing of his statements on the topic from you. Can you provide one?
      - svrb 6y ago
        Not GP commenter, but here's one: The "will you support a peaceful transition of power" question is designed to elicit a response which could be quoted out of context in an article inevitably headlined "Trump predicts his own election defeat; already musing about transfer of power to his Democratic challenger". For any politician to answer a question posed this way would be disaster. Trump's unique problem is that he simply refuses to answer the question rather than giving a non-answer with the appearance of substance. Whether this is by choice or because he can't pull off that common trick is perhaps debatable. (Before downvoting/flagging, please recognize that this answer is not exclusive of other explanations such as "Trump really does have dictatorial ambitions". I take no position on such non-falsifiable claims.) This is very similar to George W Bush's "fool me twice... I won't get fooled again" gaffe. Had he completed the quote properly he could never have escaped the clips of saying "shame on me" taken out of context (remember this is before the days of deepfakes; now it would matter much less). This was predictably spun as "Dubya is stupid!" but frankly to recognize mid-quip the minefield he was about to step in is a feat beyond the average person. Of course the difference is (again) that unlike Bush, Trump really leaves open the possibility that he really is incompetent as opposed to the 5-dimensional chess that anyone supporting him really hopes he's playing.
- wokwokwok 6y ago
  Is it appropriate now he’s declaring the democratic election invalid? That’s what fascism is, you realise? This really cuts to the heart of it; what does it take to get someone to change their views, when the facts don’t work? Even if you disagree with a democratic agenda, how can you in good conscience continue to support someone who is blatantly acting like a fascist dictator right now? I personally find it easy to distinguish Trump, who I consider an waste of air, and the GOP, who has an agenda I can appreciate. Why is that so difficult to do?
  - adnzzzzZ 6y ago
    When vote counts suddenly stop and then overnight the opponent starts surging, people tend to assume foul play is at hand. This is how it happens everywhere where an actual authoritarian cheats to stay in power, for instance: https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1186630753523818502 https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1186630753523818502. For you to not understand something like this is grounds for people to question the validity of elections all over the world means that you don't understand much about the world, let alone what's happening in your own country. And I speak about this as a non-American who's simply watching it. You're being brainwashed by your media into believing things that aren't true.
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      The vote count turn is unsurprising since the in-person ballots could be quickly tallied while the mail-in ballots had to be hand-counted. The reason the two types of balloting had such a difference in party-support is that the President in the Republican party had been telling his supporters not to use mail-in balloting because it would be rife with fraud. People took him at his word on that side of the political divide, so there's a resulting bias in the likely candidate supported by the mail-in ballots.
      - lol2143651 6y ago
        Hand counted, in the middle of the night, with no poll watchers around...
- newacct583 6y ago
  > Well, they've been presenting him as a fascist authoritarian for four years He literally called them the "enemies of the state". He routinely calls for the prosecution of his political enemies, and has apparently directed his own Department of Justice to that effect. I mean, sure, it's true that he may not "be" a fascist authoritarian. But he sure acts like one. Is it wrong to report that?
  - qdiencdxqd 6y ago
    he said "enemies of the people"
    - arbitrary_name 6y ago
      Oh yes, that makes it ok then. Carry on...
      - somelikeithot 6y ago
        Yeah and they are, problem?
- csnover 6y ago
  Trump said he would only accept the result of an election if he wins it, way back in 2016[0]; he has a pattern of firing anyone who doesn’t do or say exactly what he wants, especially when it comes to persecuting his perceived enemies[1]; he’s used his presidential power to commute the sentences of members of his personal circle who are tried and convicted of crimes[2]; he’s called into question, without evidence, the integrity of American elections[3], since even before he was the president[4]; he constantly attacks the credibility of the free press[5][6], more recently questioning even the reporting of Fox News[7][8]; he bypasses congressional checks on his appointments[9]; he has deployed the military against peaceful protesters and threatened to violate the Posse Comitatus Act[10]; his White House is being investigated for politicising the FDA and CDC[11]; last month he authorised a new executive order that would enable him to more easily fire government employees[12]; he refused to just say that he would commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses[13]. If this is not sufficient evidence that Trump is a proto-fascist authoritarian, what more would be needed, in your mind, to meet that bar? Or, perhaps putting it another way, can you explain to me how all of this stuff is cool and normal and not a clear pattern of proto-fascist authoritarianism? I did my best here to source examples from multiple media outlets in order to try to mitigate against the paradox that your main complaint is that the media is distorting the truth. Once someone decides that, not just one source, but the entire media apparatus is lying, it’s incredibly difficult to source information in a way which is acceptable—which is why a free press is so important, and why it’s particularly dangerous that Trump and his party have been spending so much energy on undermining it. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQJzt48wXbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQJzt48wXbA [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/all-the-presidents-disloyal-men-trump-demands-loyalty-but-inspires-very-little/2020/01/29/2d5eb2ec-4206-11ea-b503-2b077c436617_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/all-the-presidents-d... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-pardons-commutations.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-pardons-commutations.h... [3] https://nypost.com/2020/11/05/trump-to-speak-from-white-house-as-vote-count-leans-toward-biden/ https://nypost.com/2020/11/05/trump-to-speak-from-white-hous... [4] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/rigged-election-donald-trumps-long-history-of-polls-fraud-claims/articleshow/79038530.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/worl... [5] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lesley-stahl-donald-trump-said-attacking-press-to-discredit-negative-stories/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lesley-stahl-donald-trump-said-... [6] https://cpj.org/reports/2020/04/trump-media-attacks-credibility-leaks/ https://cpj.org/reports/2020/04/trump-media-attacks-credibil... [7] https://www.thewrap.com/trump-attacks-fox-election-day/ https://www.thewrap.com/trump-attacks-fox-election-day/ [8] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-attacks-fox-news-reporter-after-she-backs-up-key-details-of-atlantic-story/ar-BB18JQSh https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-attacks-fox-ne... [9] https://www.npr.org/2020/03/09/813577462/how-trump-has-filled-high-level-jobs-without-senate-confirmation https://www.npr.org/2020/03/09/813577462/how-trump-has-fille... [10] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-mobilizes-military-threatens-to-use-troops-to-quell-protests-across-us/2020/06/01/10212832-a416-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-mobilizes-mili... [11] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-coronavirus-cdc-fda-investigation-covid-19-b1160766.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... [12] https://www.globalgovernmentforum.com/trump-extend-hire-fire-powers-over-civil-service/ https://www.globalgovernmentforum.com/trump-extend-hire-fire... [13] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ2AvqLSjSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ2AvqLSjSs
- trumpaway 6y ago
  I think Trump has many character flaws (and that's putting it lightly), did many not-so-good things, etc. It is fine that this is highlighted by the mainstream media. My main problem is that the same treatment is not applied to the democrats. This means that in order to find similar stories from the other side, one needs to start (1) reading extremist-leaning news. These also contain many half-truths and outright lies, so on top of that one has to (2) try to verify themselves the veracity of those claims. Most people don't have the time to do that (obviously), so they stop at the first step.
jtdev 6y ago
Have you not been watching? They literally manufactured a Russia collusion story and then spent 4 years beating Trump over the head with it. Then they orchestrated a hijacking of the Democratic primary to prevent Bernie from being on the ticket. Trump is a despicable human, to a degree only surpassed by the folks running and representing American media.
- homero 6y ago
  I see russian bots commenting on Facebook all day every day for the last 4 years. Today one glitched and commented on a completely unrelated post under the name "hispanics for Trump" on a post for a car.
  - jtdev 6y ago
    Russian bots... the lefts favorite cop out argument of 2020. Please provide an example, otherwise your claims are nothing but rhetoric.
    - sizt 6y ago
      This is HNN.
    - homero 6y ago
      It's everywhere online https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/08/twitter-bots-use-likes-rts-for-intimidation/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/08/twitter-bots-use-likes-r...
    - tunesmith 6y ago
      You seriously believe it hasn't happened?
    - artofgo 6y ago
      Dude, there actually are Twitter bots every where. I see multiple accounts posting the same exact tweet over and over. You look at their profile and its a obvious its manufactured history. Have you even tried looking?
odessacubbage 6y ago
he would've have actually had to consolidate power in any kind of meaningful way instead of simply bumbling through the logical continuation of bush/obama policies while being undermined by the intel community/ his own generals and the the gop itself every time he tried to do anything that broke from neocon consensus. his own justices even repudiated him. ironically, an actual fascist would've used the pandemic as his own reichstag fire, seized power & curtailed liberties to effectively contain the virus instead of simply mismanaging a dysfunctional, under supplied & under funded federal health apparatus that effectively let the states just do whatever. italy had tanks in the streets, south korea and taiwan created invasive ethically dubious surveillance programs to control movement. the actual white supremacists are mad that trump didn't do exactly that. aside from the bizarre alternative-universe psychodrama that corporate media has been airing for the past years, trump in reality was basically just unremarkable and incompetent.
- sgustard 6y ago
  I agree Trump is much more of a "proof of concept" of how an actual fascist could operate. Instead, as you say, he is blisteringly incompetent and lazy. Remember he accidentally became president when all he wanted was to build a hotel in Moscow. His tweets clearly show the mindset of someone who wants to use levers of power which are massively beyond his constitutional powers (shut down the media, overthrow elections, imprison critics). But he had neither the energy or the political skill to accomplish any of that. What he did have was the ability to convince millions of people that the US government should be turned over to a TV reality clown.

tbwriting 6y ago

His inaction and obfuscation caused thousands and thousands of people to die from COVID. He publicly condoned shooting unarmed protesters, and let his DOJ kidnap people in unmarked vans. He left the Paris climate accords. These are catastrophic.

newacct583 6y ago
For seven weeks in 2017 it was the official policy of our government to remove migrant children of all ages from their parents and house them in a cage. Even now the inevitable bureaucratic messups have lost some of these kids; it's possible these families will literally never be whole again. Everyone has their own horrors I guess, but this was what did it for me.
- z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
  But not the murder of innocent civilians from obama and bidens massively expanded drone bombings right? That never triggered you at all
- whatanattitude 6y ago
  Obama started this.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/fact-check-did-obama-administration-separate-families-n884856 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/... > The idea that this is simply a continuation of an Obama-era practice is "preposterous," said Denise Gilman, director of the Immigration Clinic at the University of Texas Law School. "There were occasionally instances where you would find a separated family — maybe like one every six months to a year — and that was usually because there had been some actual individualized concern that there was a trafficking situation or that the parent wasn’t actually the parent." > Once custody concerns were resolved, "there was pretty immediately reunification," Gilman told NBC News. "There were not 2,000 kids in two months — it’s not the same universe," she added. That's not to say that the Obama administration didn't do some other cruel things to migrant families in an effort to deter them. Some of which got smacked back down by the courts, too. But separating families as a matter of policy was not one of those policies.

tw04 6y ago

None of it? We'll even ignore the easy ones like violating the emoluments clause and blatant nepotism. Withholding aid to Puerto Rico. Calling for the governor of Michigan to be locked up for implementing covid restrictions then refusing to condemn the folks that attempted to kidnap her. Charlottesville. Sending in Federal Police to kidnap folks in Portland. Refusing to impose sanctions on Russia that had bipartisan support. Refusing to condemn Russia for assassinating citizens of other nations with chemical weapons. Jamaal kashoggi. Saluting North Korean soldiers. Outright telling governor's he was withholding Federal aid unless they did him favors. Etc, etc, etc. "left-leaning media" has absolutely nothing to do with his train wreck of a presidency. I don't think he managed to go a single month over the last 4 years without violating the Constitution.

LordHumungous 6y ago

At least there were actual catastrophes caused by Bush. Under Trump it was conspiracy theories about Russian collusion.

weakfish 6y ago
So covid response wasn't a catastrophe? Ok
- d357r0y3r 6y ago
  I'm not sure if it was, really. What's the baseline? If Biden was President, how many people would have died instead? More than 0, right? The United States has structural issues, many of them features and not bugs, that make a coordinated effort to suppress a contagious virus basically impossible. Biden never made the case for what he would have done different; he didn't really have to. That's the thing about a crisis. When your opponent is in charge during a crisis, you can always say he was incompetent, and no one can prove that you're wrong.
  - tunesmith 6y ago
    There were recent headlines on a study done that estimated unnecessary deaths; deaths that wouldn't have happened had we had a reasonable response. Should be easy to find.
    - d357r0y3r 6y ago
      I know we're in like, mystical "follow the science" land, but any study on this matter can really only make projections based on a model. It certainly can't say what Biden would have called a "reasonable response" at the time, whether he would have followed through on it, etc. We actually know what Biden was saying to do in the early days of the pandemic, and Trump's earliest actions were roundly criticized by Democrats. My theory is that if Trump had come out hard for lockdown early on, Republicans would be pro-lockdown and Democrats would be anti-lockdown. I view the partisan divide on COVID handling as...well, purely partisan.

apex3stoker 6y ago

The mainstream media provide unlimited and free ads to Trump. Trump is a savvy marketer. He plays the mainstream media like a fiddle. The outrageous remarks he said or tweeted are reported relentlessly by the mainstream media. The way I see it is that whatever Trump said or tweeted are like campaign ads. What the mainstream media have been doing is nothing but playing campaign ads with rebuttals. The relationship between Trump and the mainstream media is pretty symbiotic. The things that the mainstream media have not reported enough is his corruption and incompetency. Instead, they constantly chase after his remarks. I will give you an example. The way USPS is undermined is nothing but sabotage. Trump and his officials claimed that they run USPS like business. The mainstream media simply reported it along this frame. However, no reasonable business would run like what they did to USPS. Besides, the moment they claimed that they would revert the changes, the mainstream simply reported what they said. No, they didn't revert their changes. By reading mainstream media news casually, we wouldn't know that USPS was sabotaged. Many people think that Trump administration simply tried to run USPS like business but they decided not to due to opposition. The reality is that USPS was sabotaged and the damage is done.

kbenson 6y ago
I'm not sure what you are referring to as the mainstream media. There were weeks of articles about USPS and how there were problems. There were years of reporting about collusion and corruption with regard to Russia and other scandals. Whether you were looking at Fox or at NY Times or WaPo or CNN or whatever, whether it was for or against, there was neverending coverage about the Trump scandal of the week, and that Trump's explanations were BS. The problem wasn't lack or reporting or criticizing Trump, it was that there was always a new scandal every week that needed coverage.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- apex3stoker 6y ago
  I refer to virtually all outlets except the conservative ones (e.g. the ones you listed except Fox). As I said, the problem with the coverage is that it is based on their framing, i.e. running USPS like a business. There are so many articles about whether USPS should be run like a business because of this framing. This is a false permise. Trump administration simply co-opted "business" for sabotage. Mainstream media fell into the trap. By arguing whether USPS should be run like business leads to the impression that Trump administration was running USPS like a business. Also, there are many articles in which if we read beyond headlines, we would find comments from opponents of Trump that Trump administration sabotaging USPS. This is merely both-side-ism at work. To learn the truth, one needs to already distrust Trump and disregard their statements. Then, all of a sudden Trump administration said that they would suspend/revert the changes. The mainstream media all rushed to report the statements, even though they were lies. There were no reporting of similar scale once the lies were uncovered. This is also the reason why Bill Barr was able to destroy Mueller's investigation - by first lying that there was no wrongdoings to gain enormous coverage and then escape scrutiny when truth was uncovered due to subdue coverage. As I also said, the mainstream media knew that Trump administration lies consistently. They should really ignore what they said and simply report what they do and don't do. In summary, the mainstream media are really poor in conveying the big picture because Trump administration successfully hacks them and because they are unable to adapt to this adversary.

adamsea 6y ago

> ... none of his behavior validates anything close to the crazed response we see from the primarily left-leaning mainstream media. Yeah no ... at this point if you honestly still believe that, we have to agree to disagree, and I'm glad that more people in America disagree with you than agree with you.

zjs 6y ago

> It's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. I've looked at a few definitions, and I don't see how it's an accurate description of what's happening here. For example: “Catastrophizing is a cognitive distortion that prompts people to jump to the worst possible conclusion, usually with very limited information or objective reason to despair. When a situation is upsetting, but not necessarily catastrophic, they still feel like they are in the midst of a crisis.” (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/catastrophizing https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/catastrophizing) We have experienced “great damage or suffering” (i.e., catastrophes), not merely upsetting situations. The media hasn't been catastrophizing; they've been reporting about catastrophes.

mlindner 6y ago
What are the "catastrophes" that you have experienced (disregarding COVID which is a world catastrophe)?

chronofar 6y ago

> It's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. It was like this during the Bush years as well, though they do seem to have perfected it. And the Republicans did the same thing with Obama, which is why he is so reviled among the right. The pendulum swings harder at each cycle, and how people still cannot see how thoroughly they're being manipulated by their party of choice continues to astound me. I get the tribalism, and I get the basic cognitive gears at play, but it takes only a modicum of self awareness and attempted empathy to understand the other side enough to open up the door to doubt, and only the tiniest degree of curiosity to find more nuanced understanding of issues at play. I do see this in some places, but I see ignorant partisan propaganda far more, and the pendulum swings ever harder. The devil is the one we make, seemingly blind to the ingredients we carelessly continue to throw into the cauldron that will continue to produce them, even as one group rejoices that the latest one has been defeated.