17 ms·
AMD Zen 3 Ryzen Deep Dive Review
- samfisher83 6y agoWow AMD is killing intel in the performance category. I wonder if Intel will have its core2duo chip coming up sometime soon. This is very similar to athlon64 play a decade ago. However with TSMC AMD will have the manufacturing advantage.
- api 6y agoThe process matters a whole lot. You can see this with 14nm vs 10nm Intel chips and their power characteristics. The Zen3 core is excellent but if they were forced to use 14nm it would be far less competitive in terms of core count, cache, power, and max clock rate.
- Zenst 6y agoWhlst the TSMC factor has done wonders for AMD now that TSMC overtook Intel. One advantage Intel has still is costs/control of their node and would be very interesting to see production costs compared as might be that Intel has more margin in production they can shave. Though they have stumbled keeping up with node progress and that has clearly been a cornerstone in the hurt they are getting in the market and AMD have capitalised upon that like champs. Will Intel bring out a new architecture that will rise above all this as they did with the Core2Duo (actually typing this upon one of those cores), well - they need to. But for me the shift on CPU's does seem to be large and faster cache access and latency. Say Intel released the same chips but added a very large SRAM layer - that for some applications would swing things for sure, not cheap but again - Intel controls and runs their own fabs, and whilst AMD could equally just do that, would the costs in them doing that with TSMC be just as comparable? There is money to be made in fabricating or TSMC would not be doing so well financially of all this. But that is a cost/income that Intel are tapped into with their own fabs. However it pans, competition has been good for the desktop x86 folks and so glad AMD back in the game and going strong.
- Covzire 6y agoIntel could also optimize their high end enthusiast dies by removing iGPUs, since virtually nobody uses or wants them.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Godel_unicode 6y agoAnd then they could call them kf, and release them last year! https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/190887/intel-core-i9-9900kf-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-00-ghz.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/190887/...
- kasabali 6y agoAFAIK it still has igpu, just non-functional and wasting space
- Zenst 6y agoNot as clear-cut on wasting space. Maybe those chips had a defective GPU area and why disabled - would be good to get clarity upon that. The other aspect is that they will act as a heat spreader at the die level, so whilst not best use of space - given all the factors - not something could easily dismiss and better a waste of space than a waste of a chip who's only crime was to have a non-functioning GPU upon it.
- kasabali 6y agoThat's not the point. iGPU takes most of the die space. Parents point is it'd be a better end product for enthusiasts had they opt to not put it there in the first place.
- jeffbee 6y agoIntel's high-end desktop series, the Cascade Lake Xeon W, already lacks graphics.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoIntel does not have a Pentium M design as a backup plan like the last time when the P4 mobile and later desktop efforts reached a dead end.
- jagger27 6y agoThat we know of, anyway. Jim Keller only just left a few months ago so who knows what’s in the architectural pipeline for the next decade.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoYou talking about his Intel stint which was cut short for "personal" reasons ???. Afaik he is not a chip architect anymore - more of organizing engineering teams to perform to their best ability and asking the right questions. The AMD guy who designed Zen architecture was also responsible for the ill-fated Bulldozer design.
- wtallis 6y ago> You talking about his Intel stint which was cut short for "personal" reasons ???. Those scare quotes are kinda rude, and whatever you're trying to insinuate with them is wrong.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoRude ???. Clearly a lame PR explanation considering his high profile stature at Intel (he is going to save us) and the suddenness of it all. https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/311664-intels-jim-keller-leaves-the-company-for-personal-reasons https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/311664-intels-jim-keller... I see they used single quotes .. my bad.
- muro 6y agoFamily, health, there is lots that can happen in life, where work is no longer a priority. Just because it's a common euphemism for something more, doesn't mean it has the be so in this case. Given his great track record, something bad probably happened in his life.
- zanny 6y agoIntel's out is to actually bring their 7nm node to market. Until then they are a sinking ship and they are certainly well aware of that. 10nm was / is a disaster failure and even if could somehow fenagle it into a usable state by next year will be trounced by tsmc 5nm zen 4. They need to cut their losses and leapfrog or they will stay technologically irrelevant going forward.
- proverbialbunny 6y agoWhen AMD 64 came out it killed the P3 and P4 because of its IO enhancements. By moving the northbridge into the CPU no longer did desktop cpus feel sluggish and no longer would they lock up in IO based tasks. It was a large jump in the desktop space. (Before AMD64 copying a file on your hard drive would run your cpu at 100%. You couldn't multi task and read the news while burning a CD, and so on.) Intel responded later with the Core 2 Duo, which not only met AMD on its playing field but beat it. For anyone who is wondering how Intel did this, here is an in depth article on the topic: https://www.anandtech.com/print/10525/ten-year-anniversary-of-core-2-duo-and-conroe-moores-law-is-dead-long-live-moores-law https://www.anandtech.com/print/10525/ten-year-anniversary-o...
- monocasa 6y agoThe northbridge absolutely would not cause your CPU to lock up on I/O based tasks, and contained an arbiter to balance CPU and I/O initiated memory requests. The CD burner issues were because they required hard real time control to not screw the disc up.
- kasabali 6y agoTo add that Core 2 (which was given as an example in the parent post) was still using the traditional north bridge design.
- proverbialbunny 6y agoThe AMD 64 did not, which is what gave it its large speed boost. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1098/6 https://www.anandtech.com/show/1098/6
- donogh 6y agoURL is timing out. Anyone have a cached copy please?
- pella 6y agoother reviews ( big list ) : https://videocardz.com/95980/amd-ryzen-5000-vermeer-zen3-review-roundup https://videocardz.com/95980/amd-ryzen-5000-vermeer-zen3-rev...
- jadbox 6y agoFor anyone that read the article and for us that can't access, can we get a summery?
- trynumber9 6y ago1. About 19% IPC improvement 2. Higher clock rates (exceeding the advertised frequency this time) 3. Power consumption basically the same 4. Lower latency for most operations (notably 5 -> 4 cycle FMA) 5. Same process node, same die size 6. Slightly higher price
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Dahoon 6y ago>"...not only performance per watt and performance per dollar leaders, but absolute performance leadership in every segment. We’ve gone into the new microarchitecture and tested the new processors. AMD is the new king, and we have the data to show it."
- Zenst 6y agoIs CPU development moving back to a CACHE war fight? Certainly AMD done well with the CPU cache changes and looking at their GPU, they leveridged that appraoch again very well it seems. If Intel was to release the same chips and lob on a large SRAM buffer - things may flip again. However it pans out - this real and credible competition is good for innovation and many area's of x86 have stagnated for so long that the whole Ryzen momentum has done wonders and totally flipped the positions of Intel and AMD.
- formerly_proven 6y agoPreviously the cache and memory subsystem were identified as a very significant weak spot in the Zen 2 architecture. These are essentially completely gone now. The changes to the core also contribute a lot, but just rectifying the memory subsystem seemed to have had a huge impact.
- wmf 6y agoThe difference in performance between 3700X (32MB cache) and 4700G (8MB cache) is very small. I think AMD's advantage is the core; it's just better.
- ChuckNorris89 6y agoHow can Intel fail so spectacularly? They have decades of X86 experience(they invented it) and literally more money than God(they probably spend more on office supplies than AMD on R&D). How do you have everything going for you and still lose?
- basscomm 6y ago>How do you have everything going for you and still lose? Complacency
- rtx 6y agoOr not paranoid enough.
- GordonS 6y agoIntel were top dog for several years, and were able to continue making huge profits while only making small, incremental improvements. End users lamented the lack of real improvements, but Intel continued to sit on their laurels because it was the easy thing to do - they simply didn't need to do anything drastic. Which it pretty sad - with different leadership with technical vision, who knows where computing power would be today? But that's business... Intel took it too far though, and didn't seem to see AMD catching them up in their rearview mirror. IMO it serves them right, and I'm so happy there is a underdog challenger that is outpacing them in so many areas. The desktop I bought last year has an AMD processor - the first in my household in many years, but hopefully not the last.
- sidpatil 6y agoSounds like a textbook example of why market competition is essential.
- propelol 6y agoThe same way Apple and Xerox screwed up? Here explained by Steve Jobs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4
- pulse7 6y agoSite not accessible: "502 ERROR The request could not be satisfied. CloudFront wasn't able to connect to the origin. We can't connect to the server for this app or website at this time. There might be too much traffic or a configuration error. Try again later, or contact the app or website owner. If you provide content to customers through CloudFront, you can find steps to troubleshoot and help prevent this error by reviewing the CloudFront documentation."
- Thaxll 6y agoMy worries not be able to get new CPU / GPU :/
- wdroz 6y agoI managed to get a 3090 RTX and also wanted to buy a 5950X, but I'm tired of these out-of-stock hard-to-get new pieces of hardware, too much hassle. So unless I can order it "for the next day" I will not order them anymore.
- AmIDev 6y agoI have been trying to get a decent mechanical keyboard at usual price, but everything is being selled at jacked up prices here in India. I don't think I'll be able to build a PC anytime soon.
- lorenzhs 6y agoArchived copy: http://web.archive.org/web/20201105140949if_/https://www.anandtech.com/print/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-dive-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested http://web.archive.org/web/20201105140949if_/https://www.ana...
- raesene9 6y ago(meta) not sure it'll help now, but maybe it was a bad plan to link the version of the article that loads it as one large page, that's a lot of images to load. Seems like that might be related to the cloudfront errors that are being generated now...
- jeffbee 6y agoIn which we see once again that software architecture is far more important than hardware performance.
- Munksgaard 6y agoDoes someone have an ELI5 on what AMD has done since ~2015 to turn their whole operation around like this, and why these new processors are so good? What's the catch?
- speeder 6y agoAMD hired the genius CPU designer Jim Keller, that is it. His previous stint on AMD was when he invented AMD64.
- lorenzhs 6y agoI don't know much about Jim Keller, but a CPU architecture is far too complex for a single person to possible be responsible for such leaps. You can't just take an average team, add one exceptional person, and get results this good. I'm sure he's exceptionally good, but focusing on Keller like that seems rather unfair to all the other engineers who made this possible.
- gameswithgo 6y agoJim has had such frequent success that I think he may have the rare talent of running large technical teams well. I suspect that may be what his talent is rather than CPU design. But maybe both, or maybe he has just gotten lucky. I think the 2 key high level choices AMD made was betting on TSMC, and betting on the chiplet + memory controller design.
- twojacobtwo 6y agoI don't know enough about CPU archtecture to chime in on that aspect, but I can say from experience that a single person with enough weight/respect behind his/her name can certainly get a stuck team moving in the right direction. I don't know what AMD's situation was at the time, but it's possible that no one felt they had the pull to change directions and his fame allows him come in and change the whole dynamic. Just a thought.
- JTon 6y agoHow much do you think a one-of-a-kind designer like Jim Keller makes? I'm looking at his wikipedia page, and he's worked for AMD, Apple, Intel, Telsa. They all want him. I can only assume there's a bidding war on his talent.
- hocuspocus 6y agoI was curious about the availability of a 5700X but it's just a typo in the headline. I'm waiting for a 65W 8C/16T variant.
- BoumTAC 6y agoOne of the biggest advantage of Intel over AMD is naming. Every new release of AMD I have absolutely no clue about the product line (if it's high end or low end or desktop/mobile), and I have no idea about the generation between two AMD processor whereas with Intel it's easy the generation is in the product name and the category is easy to understand (i3/i5/i7)
- lorenzhs 6y agoThey both follow roughly the same scheme and even have the generation in the same spot of the name: (i|Ryzen )[3579] (1 or 2 digits to indicate generation)(3 digits for model)(optional suffixes)
- Macha 6y agoTo be fair AMD literally copied the category scheme 3 generations ago and stuck with it (r3/r5/r7/r9). This generation they've also moved to simplify further. The mobile chips with the same number were always one gen behind the desktop (mobile 4xxx ~= desktop 3xxx), but now they've skipped desktop 4000 both are back in sync. Also Intel's naming scheme is getting complicated too. Base vs K vs KF Vs F. 10xxxgY vs 10xxxH/U on mobile are two entirely seperate tenth gens with lots of overlap.
- BoumTAC 6y agowhat about AMD Embedded, if I look at the AMD page of mini pc they don't have r3/r5r/7/r9 category whereas Intel have. I don't know what AMD embedded is compare to r3
- vel0city 6y agoWell, if we're going to throw embedded into the mix, Intel gets really complicated as well. What's this J1900? J3455? Quick: what features does the 3455 have over the 1900? Is Apollo Lake good? Or is Bay Trail newer? How does Cannon Lake compare to Apollo Lake? Comparing NUCs, which is better: the BXNUC10I7FNK1, or BXNUC10I3FNK1? I've got a i5 3350P. Quick, what does the P stand for?
- 6y ago
- AndrewStephens 6y agoPerhaps anandtech should have used some of those shiny review CPUs to host their website, which is currently down.
- NKosmatos 6y agoWay to go AMD. Let's hope this shock will make Intel wake up and force the giant to innovate. As I see it, it's good for us consumers since the competition means we'll be getting even better CPUs and GPUs in the near future. Side-note: both anandtech.com and archive.org are overloaded at the moment!!!
- CyberDildonics 6y agoWhy do AMD's marketing materials and this article use the word 'uplift' over and over? Is there a reason they don't just say increase?
- Tsiklon 6y agoI would assume their marketing writers have a style guide to conform to, and that "increase" is a word they actively choose not to use.
- CyberDildonics 6y agoThat seems bizarre, but it still doesn't explain why anandtech takes the words from AMD's marketing and copies it over and over.
- Tsiklon 6y agoI’ve seen at least one other reviewer use “performance uplift” in their content too - perhaps there’s an agreement on terminology in place
- icegreentea2 6y agoUplift is buzzwordy in that entire industry.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- shajznnckfke 6y agoI can imagine some marketing genius saying that “up” and “lift” are both positive words while “in” and “crease” are neutral.
- akmarinov 6y agoInteresting that they have some Apple A13 comparisons in there and that they're that close in some of the metrics!
- IanCutress 6y agoSorry about this everyone, we're trying our hardest to boot our infrastructure back into action. I'm off to get a hammer. Updates via our twitter @anandtech
- mobilio 6y agoNo worries!
- MadSudaca 6y agoYou should or should not start using AMD Zen 3 processors in your infrastructure next time to avoid this problem. I don't know.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- eptcyka 6y agoA somewhat unrelated request, but please hear me out. Would it be possible to add X-Plane 11 to the CPU and GPU benchmarks? It is easily scriptable and seems to be underrepresented in benchmarking space, but maybe there's a good reason for that. Regardless, I'm trying to convince my dad he should be building an AMD/Nvidia flight-sim machine instead of going with Intel, but there really isn't any good data to back up my claims.
- bronco21016 6y agoLTT just did his Zen 3 review and had a few Flight Sim 2020 benchmarks. https://youtu.be/iZBIeM2zE-I https://youtu.be/iZBIeM2zE-I In short, even a 5600X will exceed an Intel 10900k.
- Bayart 6y agoCan MS Flight Simulator 2020 be used as a proxy ? Because it's a pretty common benchmark for the current generation.
- icf80 6y agoThere is no 5700X for. Typo?
- neonate 6y agohttps://archive.is/BS0cD https://archive.is/BS0cD
- mastax 6y agoAMD marketing learned their lesson. There was controversy last generation with the boost clocks being up to, where many chips couldn't reach their advertised numbers at launch. This time with an advertised boost of 4800MHz AnandTech got up to 4950MHz and Gamers Nexus hit 5050MHz, though these are probably golden review samples. It's really impressive to me how big of an improvement AMD has made under the exact same constraints as last generation. Same process (even down to the same PDK) though generally higher yields probably let them choose higher bins. Same exact chiplet size to mount to the same substrate. Same power availability. Same IO die with same interfaces and memory controller. Yet they achieve +19% IPC and higher frequency with just design changes. I wish there were more detailed information available about what day-to-day engineering work goes into these design changes. Speculating: - Designing better workload and electrical simulations to make better decisions when evaluating changes. - Running lots of simulations to determine the optimal size and arrangement of each cache. - Improving CPU binning processes and data, improving on-die sensors, and improving boost algorithms to reliably run closer to the edge. - Tweaking parameters of automated layout algorithms to reduce area of specific functional units. - Improving the algorithms implemented in logic for various processes.
- 3np 6y agoYeah, wow, and here I just bought a new setup with multiple home servers all on 3600 thinking the improvement wouldn't be that significant and the prices would be much higher initially anyway. The 5600X looks fantastic at 65WTDP. Add the unavoidable price drop of Zen 2(+) on top of that. Buyers remorse is real.
- Sholmesy 6y agoThe 3600 is an incredible chip that will be relevant for a long time. Buyer's remorse is real because of marketing. Do you really need that extra 20% performance?
- onli 6y agoThe 5600X is also as expensive as the 3700X is now. The 3600 is cheaper, a lot. It's still a good option and a good deal.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- universal_sinc 6y agoThe importance of AMD's use of chiplets should not be understated. Especially in the server space, it allows them to achieve far better yields on a monster L3 cache than Intel or any other competitor. Along with the modernized Zen UArch, this means they can achieve the same perf metrics at significantly lower cost than Intel.
- Symmetry 6y agoEven more than yield issues I think that letting AMD better pool engineering effort between their desktop and server parts might have been really important. AMD is a smaller company than Intel and has to be clever about economizing.
- jeffbee 6y agoWith this significant leap in single-thread performance, it will be interesting to keep it in mind when Apple is announcing their laptop CPU next week.
- jhoward321 6y agoIf only it were easier to buy these. All the major retailers were sold out before the chips showed up on the site. The only people who managed to get them were via direct links to the listings.
- Macha 6y agoWell, for the second time my 4670k is getting replaced by my 3900x. I replaced it in my workstation/gaming PC last year and demoted my 4670k to a home server, but now that I have a home server I've found an increasing number of things to do on it and it has trouble keeping up with transcoding video to multiple watchers, or simply writing to my LUKS raid 5. Been considering a second 3900x for it for a while, but with these gains I've bought a 5900x for my workstation and will put my current 3900x in the server.
- tymm 6y agoSo should I get the 5900x or the 5950x as a programmer who likes compilation-heavy languages like Scala and Haskell and that also play games?
- ianjsikes 6y agoI'm in a similar situation and i'm going with a 5900x FWIW. The 5950 feels a little overkill, I don't expect to be fully taking advantage of the extra cores.
- tymm 6y agoSo far my thinking is that I'll go with the 5950x since it's more or less on par with the 5900x for gaming performance but has slightly faster single core performance. Also more cores are nice for running tests.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- onli 6y agoAt least there is no reason not to. You get the very best gaming performance + the best multithreaded performance on a consumer platform. Only the price speaks against that choice. 5900X and 5800X are more reasonable alternatives from that perspective (still very strong).
- p1necone 6y agoYou'll see little meaningful difference in games (the 5950x has better single core speed than the 5900x but the 5900x is already fast enough to not be the bottleneck in almost all situations). It might be more future proof though, there might be game engines in future which can properly saturate all 16 cores/32 threads. (Ashes of the Singularity is one that can now, but it's uncommon). If you're compiling really large projects and want to cut those times down it could be worth it though.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y agoThere's some odd stuff: <<< PDEP/PEXT Parallel Bits Deposit/Extreact 300 cycle latency 250 per clock 3 cycle latency 1 per clock It’s worth highlighting those last two commands. Software that helps the prefetchers, due to how AMD has arranged the branch predictors, can now process three prefetch commands per cycle. The other element is the introduction of a hardware accelerator with parallel bits: latency is reduced 99% and throughput is up 250x. >>> It talks about pdep/pext and links them to prefetchers - what? Weirder yet "is the introduction of a hardware accelerator with parallel bits" all that's happened, and backed up by earlier info in the article, is that these were trapped+emulated before, hence their hideous cost, and now they're in hardware[0]. It comes across as if someone didn't understand that. [0] calling it a 'hardware accelerator' is just peculiar.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- wtallis 6y agoThe paragraph you quoted is referring to the last two rows of the preceding table, of which you've only quoted the last row.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y agoThe last two commands (their words) were PDEP/PEXT, but yeah, ISWYM. The description is still weird, and I notice in a preceding row "ANDN - Logical AND". I mean, would anyone technical have made that mistake?
- account42 6y agoThey weren't "trapped" but just implemented using complex/looping microcode whereas now they have dedicated hardware. The purpose of that hardware is to accelerate those operations.
- twblalock 6y agoAnd the new cpus are already sold out and being scalped on eBay. This is starting to become a problem. It's happening to the new Nvidia GPUs, and the new AMD CPUs, and it will probably happen to the new Radeons later this month. At this point it will probably be impossible to purchase any of these products at retail before January. I'm not sure what Nvidia, AMD, and their retailers can do about this situation, but it's pretty bad.
- Thaxll 6y agoIt's very frustrating, they said that this would not happen btw
- tgtweak 6y agoI'd like the manufacturers to disclose how many they built and sold. These launches feel very limited. For things to sell out in seconds is not normal.
- vizzier 6y agoScalpers are a symptom of an item having higher value than the retailer is choosing to price it at. That higher value right now is provided by a lack of supply. Or, possibly the unusually high demand during covid. The fix is that we just need way more stock. In Canada we're entirely sold out up here, but we maybe had a hundred units total in the high end SKUs (based on discussions on http://www.reddit.com/r/bapcsalescanada http://www.reddit.com/r/bapcsalescanada.
- lagadu 6y agoIf an item is very desirable it'll always sell out, just give it a couple months and stocks will eventually stabilize.
- zanny 6y agoThey should be releasing these products at auction until demand falls to their MSRP. The amount of money Nvidia, AMD, etc leave on the table looks substantial. I could easily have seen the bidding wars on the first supply of 3000 series GPUs having people buying them for $1500+ easily with the 3070 selling for $1k at least.
- rektide 6y agoHopefully AMD fills out the line-up some. There's only a single 8-core offering and it's $449, where-as the 1700 was available at launch for $329. I bought mine a couple months latter for $279. 8-cores, today, cost +60% more. Ouch AMD. We really do need healthy competition, it seems.
- laneweaver 6y agoYou're getting almost double the IPC or single-threaded performance today for 60% more money compared to the 1700X. Factor in inflation, that's not too shabby.
- erichocean 6y agoDo foundries ever put multiple chip designs on a single wafer? The idea is to increase yields by putting the bigger chips in the middle, and smaller chips around the edges—perhaps for different customers entirely…
- omgtehlion 6y agoYou need repeating pattern due to how steppers work. Theoretically you can have different chips, but they will be distributed evenly. And "yield" in this case is not how many chips can be placed on a wafer, but how many of them will not have defects in critical areas.
- erichocean 6y agoThanks!
- andoriyu 6y agoPlus customers pay per wafer, so you have put different customers entirely. TSMC themselves don't care how many chips gets made from a single wafer.
- atq2119 6y agoThere are foundries that do multi-project wafer runs for very small customers. It's not motivated by yields, though, but by sharing fixed costs with other customers if you don't really want to do mass production.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- qwertox 6y agoAre there any plans for a Ryzen 7 5700X?
- vok 6y agoThe article notes benchmarks which can use AVX512, but none of the CPUs tested support AVX512.
- fomine3 6y ago> The cheapest processor that AMD is releasing today is the Ryzen 5 5600X, but it is also the only one that comes with a CPU cooler in box. Does AMD advertised this change as a "Eco-friendly" like Apple? It's reasonable for 8 cores or upper SKUs.
- moonbas3 6y agoI didn't hear that. This was mostly done because for the higher TDP parts (105W) the box cooler was not enough cooling. They also save a couple of bucks by doing this.
- ncmncm 6y agoWarning, my experiments with Gcc and -march=znver2 produced results that were not encouraging. I have not yet identified the build target that produces the best performance on Zen 2. Zen 3, of course, will be different again.