19 ms·

'Zoom towns' are exploding in the West

165 points by prostoalex 6y ago

bovermyer 6y ago
I'm trying to lay the groundwork for moving to Estonia in a couple years, and getting a fully-remote job is a primary requisite for that. I'm thrilled that remote-friendly is starting to become mainstream. I wish it had happened under other circumstances, though.
- falseAss 6y ago
  AFAIK most companies's WFH policy is currently limited within US. Cross border remote worker need much stricter approval with possibly compensation adjustment & tax implications.
jasoneckert 6y ago
Somewhat related to this are the remote work opportunities that have opened up to those living in rural communities. I have friends who live in Northern Ontario that now have remote work jobs in Toronto (programming, graphic design, IT) they wouldn't have been able to apply for beforehand because of where they live.
- rhodysurf 6y ago
  Yeah I’m passively searching for jobs, and being 1.5 hours from Boston without wanting to commute, I have found way more opportunities now because company’s are way more open to full remote or partial remote cuz I’m only an hour away. At the same time the housing market in my area is going bonkers because city people are moving here to work remote too. So it’s a toss up all around
  - driverdan 6y ago
    The housing market within that distance to Boston has been bonkers for years. My parents live in a small town about that distance away. An 8 acre lot on their street is listed for $150k.
    - 0xffff2 6y ago
      Wait, you're saying that the market is bonkers because it's so cheap, right? Or is it 150k for an empty lot with no house? Because from my perspective in nearly middle of nowhere Oregon, a house on 8 acres for $150k is crazy cheap.
      - driverdan 6y ago
        Empty lot. Last time I looked the cheapest house for sale in MLS was just under $300k.
hiphipjorge 6y ago
Does anyone know a lot of personally who have personally done this? One of my friends is travelling+working across western states, but he's the only person I know. Another friend tried going to Truckee (Tahoe) and eventually ended up back with his parents after a couple of months. So far, I would guess this is happening but to a much lesser extent that what most think. It'll definitely be a trending in that direction though.
- 2trill2spill 6y ago
  I live in Salt Lake city for the winter and work remotely so I can snowboard, but I was doing this prior to the pandemic. I also have a friend who lives in Austin, Texas normally, whos planning on moving to Colorado for the winter to snowboard as well. Those are just anecdotes, so who knows how prevalent this trend is.
  - xur17 6y ago
    I would love to do this, but lodging near slopes tends to be quite expensive - do you stay a bit further away, or have you had success sharing a house with a group of people doing the same thing?
    - 2trill2spill 6y ago
      Salt Lake city is quite affordable and im ~45 minutes to Brighton, Park city, Solitude, Snowbird, etc, excluding traffic. But pretend i didn't say that, traffic in the canyons already sucks, and more people will only make it worse.
    - moltar 6y ago
      Try Montreal? A great and affordable city. Only 1.5 hour drive to Mont Treblant.
      - xur17 6y ago
        I'll keep that in mind for the future. Not sure they'll let me in this year.
artifact_44 6y ago
Cool. My city has been adapting to the massive influx of tech workers for the past 10 years. Enjoy your increased rents and rent seekers. Might want to beef up your local social services networks as well.
ggm 6y ago
Social mobility without money looks like the dustbowl, or Californian migrant farm workers. Social mobility with money looks like second homes becoming first, with huge investments and then questions around socialised cost of roads, infrastructure in general. If you do the local taxes right, it evens out, but the price of land and housing rises for the non-mobile locals and it makes for some awesome "you're not from around here" issues. The write-ups of westerners working from Bali goes into a bit of this. Yes, it adds to the local economy. No, not always in constructive ways. Feeding young egos desire for european beer and fixing their skateboard falls costs time feeding local kids in schools and providing primary health care in a stretched local economy which is 10x lower down the scale.
- seibelj 6y ago
  Have you ever been to the Midwest? They aren’t running out of land. Las Vegas could expand into the desert for an extremely long time. There won’t be the same struggles that you have in coastal cities or exotic expat hot spots.
  - foota 6y ago
    They are running out of water though.
    - devmunchies 6y ago
      Plenty of water. The problem is its being used to grow food for export.
      - dwhit 6y ago
        I don’t want to starve
        devmunchies 6y ago
        Then we should grow food in more places.
Simulacra 6y ago
Towns can easily control for these things using taxes, zoning, and traffic rules, but they often don’t have the political will to do so. We’ve been here before with Silicon Valley, and thirty or forty years later it’s still a major problem .
- odessacubbage 6y ago
  shockingly, people who do not live in the big city do not want their communities to be zoned and developed like big cities
  - mushbino 6y ago
    Nobody has ever or will ever. It's a universal constant.
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  Quite. They don’t want people to move there but you can’t legally forbid immigration of fellow citizens so you just try and make it as difficult and expensive as possible.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  It's not just a matter of political will. Small communities lack a great many things. They tend to have trouble hiring good people for planning and development jobs. A lot of existing development resources are really aimed at larger communities, so they may be unable to readily find good resources that fit their needs. Etc. It's really a lot more complicated than mere political will.
jariel 6y ago
On the whole, this is really good, we just need to make sure to adapt our civic elements properly. This could be a massively beneficial thing if we play our cards right. That said there is another, huge thing that's happening in real time, good for some, not so much for others: local talent (i.e. US, Can, EU) will now be competing with the 'rest of the world' in a major way for more mainstream jobs. This means the bifurcation of the wealth of globalism could be even more exacerbated. We saw millions of manufacturing jobs leave the US for other parts. The 'big winners' were capital holders, senior managers, execs - their wealth increased dramatically. The other 'winners' were anyone that could maintain a decent job in the aftermath - they saw massively lower prices in commodity goods, and an unbelievable expansion in diversity of consumer products The 'losers' were those in the working class, who never quite recovered. Well - 'white collar workers' (and probably this means 'you') are going to be under that kind of 'threat' as well. The kinds of jobs that are going to the Philippines, Vietnam, India etc. is going to go way up the value chain. It means further concentration and increase in surpluses with those who 'have power'. It means probably even more expansion in buying power for those who can keep decent jobs. But the numbers of those who are going to 'get left behind' may increase substantially. This is like 'NAFTA+globalisation' on steroids. I've just hired a firm to do some tech work in E. Europe, and a team to do generic design work in Asia and the prices are ridiculously low and the quality is good. It's not a place to do advanced work (it can be, but you have to dig for that) - and although it means 'more work can be done' and an expansion in some ways, I can only feel for the pressure on wages locally for tech-related work. Folks, if they can remote you in Utah, they can also remote someone else in Kiev, and this is a very material thing to consider. This is going to be hugely impactful for trade negotiations in the future because what we have now will be a 'race to the bottom' for labour laws, working conditions, etc. and large corporations will be very happy to 'not think about' how much of that cost is simply be externalized, off the balance sheet. 'McCorp' does not care that there is no financial oversight, shifty accounting principles, meagre commercial law, limited human rights in 'Country XYZ' - all they will see is the direct issues: labour input costs, and then maybe the 'quality of outcomes' but even that is sometimes secondary.
- cortesoft 6y ago
  Time zones matter... I work with people around the world, and it is way easier to work with someone 2 or 3 hours off than with someone 10 hours apart.
jdhn 6y ago
I wonder what this means for the Midwest. I'm near Ann Arbor, and despite the pandemic, it seems that the rate of people moving here hasn't picked up. In fact, the housing market seems to be letting up a bit.
- excalibur 6y ago
  That's a college town, college enrollment is way down.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
Small communities frequently have this silly idea that "It would be wonderful if a bunch of people with money moved here! It would help alleviate local poverty!" That's not how that actually works and small communities need to start preparing for more of this. This is likely only the beginning of a long trend that will reshape the US and if it isn't addressed proactively by locals, small communities will suffer because of it. Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. People with money who move in are probably not there to play sugar daddy to your town and kiss all its boo-boos and make everything all better.
- question000 6y ago
  I have an opposite experience, people who live in small towns usually seem to be actively opposed to development, and don't want any new people coming to their town. They just want to enjoy the low property taxes.
  - delfinom 6y ago
    That's universal boomer NIMBY. Even in the NYC suburbs outside NYC , which are in no way small towns. Anything short of multimillion dollar housing for rich fucks is opposed. Boomers. Their entire retirement portfolios depend on keeping property jacked up for the foreseeable, to later sell to a magical entity with money.
hurrdurr2 6y ago
Entitled techies aka HN users ruining things wherever they go. What a surprise.
monkeypizza 6y ago
I've been on the road 6 months now working remote. It's pretty great, especially going with a friend or two. The main concern was internet - here's what I found: 1 month Southern colorado - terrible internet Denver, SLC, Seattle, Baja - all no problems The key thing that's helped is directly connecting with ethernet.
- driverdan 6y ago
  Get a good quality hotspot with an unlimited SIM.
- briankelly 6y ago
  I was tempted to move to Southern CO for the end of summer/fall but its hard to do short-term, gotta be a little self-sufficient due to the isolation factor. Can I ask where you were in Baja? I'm thinking about going there in the summertime.
  - monkeypizza 6y ago
    Ensenada. Beautiful out in the hills but very sleepy. Colorado beats it by a mile. Security wise it's been okay for a month but the undercurrent of fear about it online and among people I've met here is not great, as is having a lower level of trust in rule of law and police here in general.
    - briankelly 6y ago
      Thank you, good to know. Would like to find somewhere remote to surf but might just stick to the US.
chris_f 6y ago
Would have liked to seen the article list more of the specific towns. Just searched around and found this article [0], but only a few western towns were mentioned and most of the places listed are quite expensive. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/irenelevine/2020/09/15/zoom-towns-why-your-last-vacation-getaway-may-be-your-next-home/#cb9b5eb3ad38 https://www.forbes.com/sites/irenelevine/2020/09/15/zoom-tow...
- drunner 6y ago
  Yeah, I agree. I'm not an academic, but I could not find the data on which towns were surveyed in 5 minutes looking at the source paper: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01944363.2020.1791728 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01944363.2020.1...
  - dublinben 6y ago
    The "supplemental material" link on that page provides a technical appendix which lists their criteria for determining these communities.[0] They list the subset of communities where they actually interviewed a representative. It includes such unknown places as South Lake Tahoe, Aspen, Telluride, Park City, and Jackson. [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/01944363.2020.1791728/suppl_file/rjpa_a_1791728_sm7418.pdf https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/01944363.2020....
- mxuribe 6y ago
  Sheesh, some of the towns/areas listed are really expensive under normal conditions!
- jeffbee 6y ago
  They can't mention any specific towns because doing so would easily falsify their narrative. There's no evidence that moving from a major city to a smaller city of this type has accelerated due to COVID, and there's plenty of objective evidence that the rate of change of address in the US has actually slowed slightly due to COVID. The paper this article mentions deals entirely with issues prior to 2020. The article itself is merely the latest symptom of a memetic disease among journalists.
api 6y ago
I've come to the opinion that there is no solution to the high cost of real estate problem in "HCOL cities." No amount of YIMBYism will make real estate affordable if all good upwardly mobile jobs must be crammed into about five giant cities. There is not enough space. Cities with higher density are still not cheap anyway, and when people have kids/families they really start wanting a lot more space. The solution is to actually use this Internet thing we have built and make place far less relevant. The only blessing so far from COVID is that it has forced this issue and overcome probably a generation of institutional inertia, helping people escape the unaffordable housing trap a lot sooner than they otherwise could. The US has no housing problem if you broaden your hunt to the entire country. There are tons of really nice small to medium sized towns, and if you like having access to something more urban there are also numerous medium sized cities with functioning downtowns and affordable housing in decent neighborhoods.
Devils-Avocado 6y ago
These companies might be able to continue operations running on fumes, but I'm not sure how new teams can be formed and new staff onboarded with zero human contact or office interaction. What would make more sense is simply to move the office to the Midwest, and interact with other branches or businesses remotely. This would seem to give the best of both worlds - cheaper cost of living, and physical interaction.
- adrianN 6y ago
  FWIW we have onboarded several people since March without any in person contact. There haven't been any major problems.
- kube-system 6y ago
  > I'm not sure how new teams can be formed and new staff onboarded with zero human contact or office interaction. Presumably, they'd do it the same way fully-remote companies have always done it. Either you onboard people remotely, or you travel to meet up in person for onboarding. You don't need an office to do that.
- juniper_strong 6y ago
  >> I'm not sure how new teams can be formed and new staff onboarded with zero human contact or office interaction The company laptop shows up at your front door and you get on the phone with the hiring manager who tells you how to log in. I started in April and I've never met any of the people I work with in person. On my team, only one of the people was ever in the actual office. It isn't a problem. Takes a little longer to build trust with people, that's about it.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    >> I'm not sure how new teams can be formed and new staff onboarded with zero human contact or office interaction > It isn't a problem. Takes a little longer to build trust with people, that's about it. It is a problem, because there's more to being on a team than getting a laptop and doing assigned work. Losing workplace human contact may be find for some people, but for me the loss has been palpable. The change is necessary given the circumstances, but that doesn't mean it's fine. This gets at some of it: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/opinion/work-from-home-loneliness.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/opinion/work-from-home-lo....
adolph 6y ago
Many threads seem to point out problems with remote workers moving to lower cost locations. A word I haven't seen is "gentrification." Is remote worker geographic distribution not a form of gentrification?
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Rich newcomers are very much to the detriment of anyone not making their money off the moneyed newcomers. The bar owner buries his head in the sand because business is good. The bar's plumber doesn't like it but keeps his mouth shut because he can charge the bar owner more. The farmer, the mechanic, and everyone else not close enough to the money to get a good trickle down loses out big time because now they can't afford the plumber and they can't afford to go to the bar to drink their problems away.
  - conanbatt 6y ago
    Why are the Rich-old-comers any good? Wouldn't with this model mean that the richer are always the problem?
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      This whole thread is just people complaining about the demand curves moving, and the supply curve lagging, because it takes time in real life for people to see and react to the moving demand curves. There is a little bit of pain, initially, but if they step back and compare life in an economically prospering place (rich people coming in) versus an economically declining place (rich people and opportunities to earn money leaving), they would realize they are actually lucky. One might say well those aren’t the only two options, and I would say, yes they are. The world moves faster and faster there is no “stasis” anymore. You’re on the up or down, volatility is higher, and you need to stay on the right side of it.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        I should know better than to reply to you but sometimes I can't help myself. >people complaining about the demand curves moving >There is a little bit of pain, initially Demand curves move in decades! Nobody wants life to suck for a couple decades because a bunch of people showed up and turned the local economy upside down. That's a huge fraction of a lifetime. If you're unlucky your kids might even be born at the start of it. >economically declining place You call it declining and I call it stable and sustainable. The world will always need soybeans, dairy products, corn and timber. The machinery to produce these things will always need to be fixed. Yes the people employed in that capacity will decline over time. With current birth rates and options for geographic mobility I don't think this is a real problem. It just means more kids will grow up to move to the cities than stick around. >You’re on the up or down, volatility is higher, and you need to stay on the right side of it. This seems like a world view minted where the primary industry is a volatile money fire. Not everywhere is like this, yet.
baybal2 6y ago
I was caught by corona in the official middle of nowhere 3rd world country. DHL from Shenzhen to here took almost a month. I am very, very glad I can work remotely, and rack not so bad salary in a very cheap country to live. Yet, moving anything physical takes an extraordinary amount of time, and shuts down any productivity.
- Inthenameofmine 6y ago
  That's the supply chain reality of most non-port cities/countries in the world. It's also normal to pay 1.5-3x the original ticker price for what you ship in based on tariffs, fees, shipping, etc. The trick is to pick your location based on a Ben diagram of requirements. Personally I buy almost everything locally direct from producers. Many artisans are so cheap that it's even worth custom ordering certain products. For high tech or industrial goods you could be out of luck though.
Adutude 6y ago
In the article it references a Gallup poll and says, "Nearly two-thirds of employees who have been working remotely would like to continue to do so" So the Majority of people want to continue to work remote, I would put out there that the only people that want to go back into the office are are busy bodies and control freaks. (Lookin' at you Satya) IMHO Working from home solves the problem of, "Stop the chitty chatty and get back to work", and it partially solves the problem of "Hey man, stop riding me like a rented mule". So spending less time polluting the planet travelling in shiny metal boxes to go to giant concrete boxes to sit in tiny metal and fabric cubes is a bad thing? I'm going next level on remote. Got a sail boat and I'm going full water world. I'll say hi to Kevin Costner for ya.
- learn_more 6y ago
  How are you planning to handle Internet access on the boat? Starlink being the ultimate solution is still probably years away for ocean coverage.
  - 0xffff2 6y ago
    I've only really scratched the surface of what it would take to move onto a boat full time, but my impression is that the vast majority of boat dwellers have a permanent slip in a harbor where they spend the majority of their time. Given that, depending on location Starlink might be practical sooner. (Although as a land dweller who owns some rural property I'd like to make better use of, I'm getting a little tired of living on Elon time.)
- snarf21 6y ago
  Quite a presumptuous statement. I'm not a busy body nor a control freak. I would always prefer to work in the office. It is a preference, stop presenting it as right/wrong. Here is why I prefer an office. It gives me a hard separation between work and home. It forces me to be on a schedule (which I prefer). I have a short 20 minute commute so it is a time to listen to podcasts I otherwise wouldn't make time for. I like the camaraderie of a team, wfh feels lonely to me. I enjoy grabbing lunch with co-workers and then we often play a game before going back to work. These things work for me and enrich my life.
SirensOfTitan 6y ago
Perhaps I find myself in the minority, but I really enjoy living in a city with somewhat sane zoning. As a US-citizen who doesn't want to live abroad, my choices are limited if I want to live outside of a de-facto suburb. I want to walk most places, utilize public transit, have access to stores and coffee shops without a drive, and naturally live close to friends. My partner and I don't need too much space, and I'd rather go to a dog park and chat with people than play with my dog in a backyard alone. The Le Corbusier spirit of zoning has wrought so much damage in the US. I dread the idea of having to jump in a car for 15 minutes to shop for groceries in a strip mall. Most suburbs really destroy natural community (and I suppose that was the point of Le Corbusier's ideas around planning: like the gigantic squares in Brasilia) too. (I realize my comment here is all over the place, sorry!)
- stronglikedan 6y ago
  I live in a suburb where I can walk most places, utilize public transit, have access to stores and coffee shops without a drive, and live close to friends and work (4 mi). They do exist! (Although, they are admittedly few and far between.)
  - MH15 6y ago
    Suburbs with public transit! Now that's something
    - stronglikedan 6y ago
      I mean, it's a five minute walk to the bus stop, but it's also just a 15 minute walk to every type of store/gym/restaurant I need. So, while I personally don't use the public transport, it's there if I ever need it.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      The American suburb was invented by streetcars.
  - opportune 6y ago
artichikin 6y ago
Definitely seeing this happen in my small remote ski town (Revelstoke BC). The demand for housing has sky rocketed for this winter as so many people want to work remote from here and enjoy the skiing. Local blue collar workers hate the skiiers because they are getting priced out of everything and their cost of living & property taxes keep going up. I have a small (~25ish person) software company based here and it's going to be a challenge to recruit this winter (we're hiring for senior devs) simply because it will be impossible for anyone to find housing here until the end of the ski season!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hurrdurr2 6y ago
Maybe you sniveling techies can all move to New Zealand like Jeff bezos and peter thiel and the rest of those assholes. Go buy a fucking hobbit hovel and stay there.

165 points by prostoalex 6y ago

I'm trying to lay the groundwork for moving to Estonia in a couple years, and getting a fully-remote job is a primary requisite for that. I'm thrilled that remote-friendly is starting to become mainstream. I wish it had happened under other circumstances, though.

falseAss 6y ago
AFAIK most companies's WFH policy is currently limited within US. Cross border remote worker need much stricter approval with possibly compensation adjustment & tax implications.

jasoneckert 6y ago

Somewhat related to this are the remote work opportunities that have opened up to those living in rural communities. I have friends who live in Northern Ontario that now have remote work jobs in Toronto (programming, graphic design, IT) they wouldn't have been able to apply for beforehand because of where they live.

rhodysurf 6y ago
Yeah I’m passively searching for jobs, and being 1.5 hours from Boston without wanting to commute, I have found way more opportunities now because company’s are way more open to full remote or partial remote cuz I’m only an hour away. At the same time the housing market in my area is going bonkers because city people are moving here to work remote too. So it’s a toss up all around
- driverdan 6y ago
  The housing market within that distance to Boston has been bonkers for years. My parents live in a small town about that distance away. An 8 acre lot on their street is listed for $150k.
  - 0xffff2 6y ago
    Wait, you're saying that the market is bonkers because it's so cheap, right? Or is it 150k for an empty lot with no house? Because from my perspective in nearly middle of nowhere Oregon, a house on 8 acres for $150k is crazy cheap.
    - driverdan 6y ago
      Empty lot. Last time I looked the cheapest house for sale in MLS was just under $300k.

hiphipjorge 6y ago

Does anyone know a lot of personally who have personally done this? One of my friends is travelling+working across western states, but he's the only person I know. Another friend tried going to Truckee (Tahoe) and eventually ended up back with his parents after a couple of months. So far, I would guess this is happening but to a much lesser extent that what most think. It'll definitely be a trending in that direction though.

2trill2spill 6y ago
I live in Salt Lake city for the winter and work remotely so I can snowboard, but I was doing this prior to the pandemic. I also have a friend who lives in Austin, Texas normally, whos planning on moving to Colorado for the winter to snowboard as well. Those are just anecdotes, so who knows how prevalent this trend is.
- xur17 6y ago
  I would love to do this, but lodging near slopes tends to be quite expensive - do you stay a bit further away, or have you had success sharing a house with a group of people doing the same thing?
  - 2trill2spill 6y ago
    Salt Lake city is quite affordable and im ~45 minutes to Brighton, Park city, Solitude, Snowbird, etc, excluding traffic. But pretend i didn't say that, traffic in the canyons already sucks, and more people will only make it worse.
  - moltar 6y ago
    Try Montreal? A great and affordable city. Only 1.5 hour drive to Mont Treblant.
    - xur17 6y ago
      I'll keep that in mind for the future. Not sure they'll let me in this year.

artifact_44 6y ago

Cool. My city has been adapting to the massive influx of tech workers for the past 10 years. Enjoy your increased rents and rent seekers. Might want to beef up your local social services networks as well.

ggm 6y ago

Social mobility without money looks like the dustbowl, or Californian migrant farm workers. Social mobility with money looks like second homes becoming first, with huge investments and then questions around socialised cost of roads, infrastructure in general. If you do the local taxes right, it evens out, but the price of land and housing rises for the non-mobile locals and it makes for some awesome "you're not from around here" issues. The write-ups of westerners working from Bali goes into a bit of this. Yes, it adds to the local economy. No, not always in constructive ways. Feeding young egos desire for european beer and fixing their skateboard falls costs time feeding local kids in schools and providing primary health care in a stretched local economy which is 10x lower down the scale.

seibelj 6y ago
Have you ever been to the Midwest? They aren’t running out of land. Las Vegas could expand into the desert for an extremely long time. There won’t be the same struggles that you have in coastal cities or exotic expat hot spots.
- foota 6y ago
  They are running out of water though.
  - devmunchies 6y ago
    Plenty of water. The problem is its being used to grow food for export.
    - dwhit 6y ago
      I don’t want to starve
      - devmunchies 6y ago
        Then we should grow food in more places.

Simulacra 6y ago

Towns can easily control for these things using taxes, zoning, and traffic rules, but they often don’t have the political will to do so. We’ve been here before with Silicon Valley, and thirty or forty years later it’s still a major problem .

odessacubbage 6y ago
shockingly, people who do not live in the big city do not want their communities to be zoned and developed like big cities
- mushbino 6y ago
  Nobody has ever or will ever. It's a universal constant.
barry-cotter 6y ago
Quite. They don’t want people to move there but you can’t legally forbid immigration of fellow citizens so you just try and make it as difficult and expensive as possible.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
It's not just a matter of political will. Small communities lack a great many things. They tend to have trouble hiring good people for planning and development jobs. A lot of existing development resources are really aimed at larger communities, so they may be unable to readily find good resources that fit their needs. Etc. It's really a lot more complicated than mere political will.

jariel 6y ago

On the whole, this is really good, we just need to make sure to adapt our civic elements properly. This could be a massively beneficial thing if we play our cards right. That said there is another, huge thing that's happening in real time, good for some, not so much for others: local talent (i.e. US, Can, EU) will now be competing with the 'rest of the world' in a major way for more mainstream jobs. This means the bifurcation of the wealth of globalism could be even more exacerbated. We saw millions of manufacturing jobs leave the US for other parts. The 'big winners' were capital holders, senior managers, execs - their wealth increased dramatically. The other 'winners' were anyone that could maintain a decent job in the aftermath - they saw massively lower prices in commodity goods, and an unbelievable expansion in diversity of consumer products The 'losers' were those in the working class, who never quite recovered. Well - 'white collar workers' (and probably this means 'you') are going to be under that kind of 'threat' as well. The kinds of jobs that are going to the Philippines, Vietnam, India etc. is going to go way up the value chain. It means further concentration and increase in surpluses with those who 'have power'. It means probably even more expansion in buying power for those who can keep decent jobs. But the numbers of those who are going to 'get left behind' may increase substantially. This is like 'NAFTA+globalisation' on steroids. I've just hired a firm to do some tech work in E. Europe, and a team to do generic design work in Asia and the prices are ridiculously low and the quality is good. It's not a place to do advanced work (it can be, but you have to dig for that) - and although it means 'more work can be done' and an expansion in some ways, I can only feel for the pressure on wages locally for tech-related work. Folks, if they can remote you in Utah, they can also remote someone else in Kiev, and this is a very material thing to consider. This is going to be hugely impactful for trade negotiations in the future because what we have now will be a 'race to the bottom' for labour laws, working conditions, etc. and large corporations will be very happy to 'not think about' how much of that cost is simply be externalized, off the balance sheet. 'McCorp' does not care that there is no financial oversight, shifty accounting principles, meagre commercial law, limited human rights in 'Country XYZ' - all they will see is the direct issues: labour input costs, and then maybe the 'quality of outcomes' but even that is sometimes secondary.

cortesoft 6y ago
Time zones matter... I work with people around the world, and it is way easier to work with someone 2 or 3 hours off than with someone 10 hours apart.

jdhn 6y ago

I wonder what this means for the Midwest. I'm near Ann Arbor, and despite the pandemic, it seems that the rate of people moving here hasn't picked up. In fact, the housing market seems to be letting up a bit.

excalibur 6y ago
That's a college town, college enrollment is way down.

DoreenMichele 6y ago

Small communities frequently have this silly idea that "It would be wonderful if a bunch of people with money moved here! It would help alleviate local poverty!" That's not how that actually works and small communities need to start preparing for more of this. This is likely only the beginning of a long trend that will reshape the US and if it isn't addressed proactively by locals, small communities will suffer because of it. Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. People with money who move in are probably not there to play sugar daddy to your town and kiss all its boo-boos and make everything all better.

question000 6y ago
I have an opposite experience, people who live in small towns usually seem to be actively opposed to development, and don't want any new people coming to their town. They just want to enjoy the low property taxes.
- delfinom 6y ago
  That's universal boomer NIMBY. Even in the NYC suburbs outside NYC , which are in no way small towns. Anything short of multimillion dollar housing for rich fucks is opposed. Boomers. Their entire retirement portfolios depend on keeping property jacked up for the foreseeable, to later sell to a magical entity with money.

hurrdurr2 6y ago

Entitled techies aka HN users ruining things wherever they go. What a surprise.

monkeypizza 6y ago

I've been on the road 6 months now working remote. It's pretty great, especially going with a friend or two. The main concern was internet - here's what I found: 1 month Southern colorado - terrible internet Denver, SLC, Seattle, Baja - all no problems The key thing that's helped is directly connecting with ethernet.

driverdan 6y ago
Get a good quality hotspot with an unlimited SIM.
briankelly 6y ago
I was tempted to move to Southern CO for the end of summer/fall but its hard to do short-term, gotta be a little self-sufficient due to the isolation factor. Can I ask where you were in Baja? I'm thinking about going there in the summertime.
- monkeypizza 6y ago
  Ensenada. Beautiful out in the hills but very sleepy. Colorado beats it by a mile. Security wise it's been okay for a month but the undercurrent of fear about it online and among people I've met here is not great, as is having a lower level of trust in rule of law and police here in general.
  - briankelly 6y ago
    Thank you, good to know. Would like to find somewhere remote to surf but might just stick to the US.

chris_f 6y ago

Would have liked to seen the article list more of the specific towns. Just searched around and found this article [0], but only a few western towns were mentioned and most of the places listed are quite expensive. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/irenelevine/2020/09/15/zoom-towns-why-your-last-vacation-getaway-may-be-your-next-home/#cb9b5eb3ad38 https://www.forbes.com/sites/irenelevine/2020/09/15/zoom-tow...

drunner 6y ago
Yeah, I agree. I'm not an academic, but I could not find the data on which towns were surveyed in 5 minutes looking at the source paper: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01944363.2020.1791728 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01944363.2020.1...
- dublinben 6y ago
  The "supplemental material" link on that page provides a technical appendix which lists their criteria for determining these communities.[0] They list the subset of communities where they actually interviewed a representative. It includes such unknown places as South Lake Tahoe, Aspen, Telluride, Park City, and Jackson. [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/01944363.2020.1791728/suppl_file/rjpa_a_1791728_sm7418.pdf https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/01944363.2020....
mxuribe 6y ago
Sheesh, some of the towns/areas listed are really expensive under normal conditions!
jeffbee 6y ago
They can't mention any specific towns because doing so would easily falsify their narrative. There's no evidence that moving from a major city to a smaller city of this type has accelerated due to COVID, and there's plenty of objective evidence that the rate of change of address in the US has actually slowed slightly due to COVID. The paper this article mentions deals entirely with issues prior to 2020. The article itself is merely the latest symptom of a memetic disease among journalists.

api 6y ago

I've come to the opinion that there is no solution to the high cost of real estate problem in "HCOL cities." No amount of YIMBYism will make real estate affordable if all good upwardly mobile jobs must be crammed into about five giant cities. There is not enough space. Cities with higher density are still not cheap anyway, and when people have kids/families they really start wanting a lot more space. The solution is to actually use this Internet thing we have built and make place far less relevant. The only blessing so far from COVID is that it has forced this issue and overcome probably a generation of institutional inertia, helping people escape the unaffordable housing trap a lot sooner than they otherwise could. The US has no housing problem if you broaden your hunt to the entire country. There are tons of really nice small to medium sized towns, and if you like having access to something more urban there are also numerous medium sized cities with functioning downtowns and affordable housing in decent neighborhoods.

Devils-Avocado 6y ago

These companies might be able to continue operations running on fumes, but I'm not sure how new teams can be formed and new staff onboarded with zero human contact or office interaction. What would make more sense is simply to move the office to the Midwest, and interact with other branches or businesses remotely. This would seem to give the best of both worlds - cheaper cost of living, and physical interaction.

adrianN 6y ago
FWIW we have onboarded several people since March without any in person contact. There haven't been any major problems.
kube-system 6y ago
> I'm not sure how new teams can be formed and new staff onboarded with zero human contact or office interaction. Presumably, they'd do it the same way fully-remote companies have always done it. Either you onboard people remotely, or you travel to meet up in person for onboarding. You don't need an office to do that.
juniper_strong 6y ago
>> I'm not sure how new teams can be formed and new staff onboarded with zero human contact or office interaction The company laptop shows up at your front door and you get on the phone with the hiring manager who tells you how to log in. I started in April and I've never met any of the people I work with in person. On my team, only one of the people was ever in the actual office. It isn't a problem. Takes a little longer to build trust with people, that's about it.
- ardy42 6y ago
  >> I'm not sure how new teams can be formed and new staff onboarded with zero human contact or office interaction > It isn't a problem. Takes a little longer to build trust with people, that's about it. It is a problem, because there's more to being on a team than getting a laptop and doing assigned work. Losing workplace human contact may be find for some people, but for me the loss has been palpable. The change is necessary given the circumstances, but that doesn't mean it's fine. This gets at some of it: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/opinion/work-from-home-loneliness.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/opinion/work-from-home-lo....

adolph 6y ago

Many threads seem to point out problems with remote workers moving to lower cost locations. A word I haven't seen is "gentrification." Is remote worker geographic distribution not a form of gentrification?

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Rich newcomers are very much to the detriment of anyone not making their money off the moneyed newcomers. The bar owner buries his head in the sand because business is good. The bar's plumber doesn't like it but keeps his mouth shut because he can charge the bar owner more. The farmer, the mechanic, and everyone else not close enough to the money to get a good trickle down loses out big time because now they can't afford the plumber and they can't afford to go to the bar to drink their problems away.
- conanbatt 6y ago
  Why are the Rich-old-comers any good? Wouldn't with this model mean that the richer are always the problem?
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    This whole thread is just people complaining about the demand curves moving, and the supply curve lagging, because it takes time in real life for people to see and react to the moving demand curves. There is a little bit of pain, initially, but if they step back and compare life in an economically prospering place (rich people coming in) versus an economically declining place (rich people and opportunities to earn money leaving), they would realize they are actually lucky. One might say well those aren’t the only two options, and I would say, yes they are. The world moves faster and faster there is no “stasis” anymore. You’re on the up or down, volatility is higher, and you need to stay on the right side of it.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      I should know better than to reply to you but sometimes I can't help myself. >people complaining about the demand curves moving >There is a little bit of pain, initially Demand curves move in decades! Nobody wants life to suck for a couple decades because a bunch of people showed up and turned the local economy upside down. That's a huge fraction of a lifetime. If you're unlucky your kids might even be born at the start of it. >economically declining place You call it declining and I call it stable and sustainable. The world will always need soybeans, dairy products, corn and timber. The machinery to produce these things will always need to be fixed. Yes the people employed in that capacity will decline over time. With current birth rates and options for geographic mobility I don't think this is a real problem. It just means more kids will grow up to move to the cities than stick around. >You’re on the up or down, volatility is higher, and you need to stay on the right side of it. This seems like a world view minted where the primary industry is a volatile money fire. Not everywhere is like this, yet.

baybal2 6y ago

I was caught by corona in the official middle of nowhere 3rd world country. DHL from Shenzhen to here took almost a month. I am very, very glad I can work remotely, and rack not so bad salary in a very cheap country to live. Yet, moving anything physical takes an extraordinary amount of time, and shuts down any productivity.

Inthenameofmine 6y ago
That's the supply chain reality of most non-port cities/countries in the world. It's also normal to pay 1.5-3x the original ticker price for what you ship in based on tariffs, fees, shipping, etc. The trick is to pick your location based on a Ben diagram of requirements. Personally I buy almost everything locally direct from producers. Many artisans are so cheap that it's even worth custom ordering certain products. For high tech or industrial goods you could be out of luck though.

Adutude 6y ago

In the article it references a Gallup poll and says, "Nearly two-thirds of employees who have been working remotely would like to continue to do so" So the Majority of people want to continue to work remote, I would put out there that the only people that want to go back into the office are are busy bodies and control freaks. (Lookin' at you Satya) IMHO Working from home solves the problem of, "Stop the chitty chatty and get back to work", and it partially solves the problem of "Hey man, stop riding me like a rented mule". So spending less time polluting the planet travelling in shiny metal boxes to go to giant concrete boxes to sit in tiny metal and fabric cubes is a bad thing? I'm going next level on remote. Got a sail boat and I'm going full water world. I'll say hi to Kevin Costner for ya.

learn_more 6y ago
How are you planning to handle Internet access on the boat? Starlink being the ultimate solution is still probably years away for ocean coverage.
- 0xffff2 6y ago
  I've only really scratched the surface of what it would take to move onto a boat full time, but my impression is that the vast majority of boat dwellers have a permanent slip in a harbor where they spend the majority of their time. Given that, depending on location Starlink might be practical sooner. (Although as a land dweller who owns some rural property I'd like to make better use of, I'm getting a little tired of living on Elon time.)
snarf21 6y ago
Quite a presumptuous statement. I'm not a busy body nor a control freak. I would always prefer to work in the office. It is a preference, stop presenting it as right/wrong. Here is why I prefer an office. It gives me a hard separation between work and home. It forces me to be on a schedule (which I prefer). I have a short 20 minute commute so it is a time to listen to podcasts I otherwise wouldn't make time for. I like the camaraderie of a team, wfh feels lonely to me. I enjoy grabbing lunch with co-workers and then we often play a game before going back to work. These things work for me and enrich my life.

SirensOfTitan 6y ago

Perhaps I find myself in the minority, but I really enjoy living in a city with somewhat sane zoning. As a US-citizen who doesn't want to live abroad, my choices are limited if I want to live outside of a de-facto suburb. I want to walk most places, utilize public transit, have access to stores and coffee shops without a drive, and naturally live close to friends. My partner and I don't need too much space, and I'd rather go to a dog park and chat with people than play with my dog in a backyard alone. The Le Corbusier spirit of zoning has wrought so much damage in the US. I dread the idea of having to jump in a car for 15 minutes to shop for groceries in a strip mall. Most suburbs really destroy natural community (and I suppose that was the point of Le Corbusier's ideas around planning: like the gigantic squares in Brasilia) too. (I realize my comment here is all over the place, sorry!)

stronglikedan 6y ago
I live in a suburb where I can walk most places, utilize public transit, have access to stores and coffee shops without a drive, and live close to friends and work (4 mi). They do exist! (Although, they are admittedly few and far between.)
- MH15 6y ago
  Suburbs with public transit! Now that's something
  - stronglikedan 6y ago
    I mean, it's a five minute walk to the bus stop, but it's also just a 15 minute walk to every type of store/gym/restaurant I need. So, while I personally don't use the public transport, it's there if I ever need it.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    The American suburb was invented by streetcars.
- opportune 6y ago

artichikin 6y ago

Definitely seeing this happen in my small remote ski town (Revelstoke BC). The demand for housing has sky rocketed for this winter as so many people want to work remote from here and enjoy the skiing. Local blue collar workers hate the skiiers because they are getting priced out of everything and their cost of living & property taxes keep going up. I have a small (~25ish person) software company based here and it's going to be a challenge to recruit this winter (we're hiring for senior devs) simply because it will be impossible for anyone to find housing here until the end of the ski season!

deleted 6y ago

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hurrdurr2 6y ago

Maybe you sniveling techies can all move to New Zealand like Jeff bezos and peter thiel and the rest of those assholes. Go buy a fucking hobbit hovel and stay there.