4 ms·

If its P2P it means it uses other peoples' nodes as your exit node, sort of like Tor but without the onions. That's risky. What happens to me if someone does s

by api 6y ago

If its P2P it means it uses other peoples' nodes as your exit node, sort of like Tor but without the onions. That's risky. What happens to me if someone does something illegal via my connection? How could I prove it wasn't me? Maybe I could win in court by citing my use of something like this, but I really don't want to be dragged into court in the first place even if I end up walking out.

ignoramous 6y ago
Lantern [0] and Pisphon.ca do so, too, since it is an effective anti-censorship deterrent. Also, industry leaders like NordVPN and ExpressVPN may engage in P2P routing especially to unblock services like Netflix and Disney+ [1]. HolaVPN unapologetically does this too [2]. All of this is discounting the new-age dVPNs like Orchid (not quite the Tor replacement that was promised [3]) and Mysterium [4]. [0] https://archive.is/lDXR4 https://archive.is/lDXR4 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664692 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9614993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9614993 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15576457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15576457 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14331049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14331049
- oefrha 6y ago
  Routing traffic for specific domains with known legal content is questionable practice, but at least it’s safe from the specific concern here (until someone finds an exploit, maybe a bad domain parser or something). Routing arbitrary traffic is plain risky, it is entirely conceivable to be arrested for it, or at least be searched, whether you can explain it away later or not. “Other providers are doing it too” hardly makes it any less risky.
  - qeternity 6y ago
    All it takes is for someone to make a threat of violence in the comments section of a known service, or to post links to abusive material.
RealStickman_ 6y ago
My thoughts exactly. How ironic that you'd need another VPN to be safe enough for daily use.
risyachka 6y ago
Shouldn't prosecutors prove that it was you and not someone else?
- detaro 6y ago
  "Should", yes. (Details obviously depend on jurisdiction) For that, they get a warrant to search your home and for your computers to be confiscated to do the forensic analysis on them. You might get them back after a few years if nothing can be proven. They also might tie you into it for knowingly supporting it by installing such a VPN, some places make you responsible for everything happening through your connection by default. See the "fun" people operating TOR exit nodes have for what can happen.
  - risyachka 6y ago
    True, but there is a big difference in operating an exit node and using a VPN. Millions have VPNs installed. These is only a small amount of exit notes, and millions use VPN. I'd argue that the chance of being accused because someone used your connection in p2p VPN is less than when someone will use your wifi to do something illegal.
    - _jal 6y ago
      The more relevant question is, what does this software offer that would make it worth taking on this risk? For whatever values of 'this risk' you evaluate running this code to carry. Arguing semantics with a prosecutor might be your idea of a good time, but that seems to me like the sort of thing I could do without. In any case, they may call this a VPN, but it isn't a VPN in the sense that term is normally used, and it certainly isn't even vaguely similar to that VPN connection you make to the office.
  - chii 6y ago
    Why can't anyone who join be incorporated as a utilities provider, and shed the responsibility of monitoring the traffic (and the legality of it) to the initiator of said traffic? I mean, ISPs do this don't they? Telephone networks do this don't they?
Fnoord 6y ago
This seems like a decent tool to use in an oppressed, non-free country. Except Tor (or Whonix or Tails), WireGuard, or ZeroTier are a better option. All of these allow better management (and therefore control) of routes. There is a very good reason Usenet does not require uploading, and P2P protocols like BitTorrent are used with a VPN. It provides a reasonable enough protection against a civil actor such as RIAA and MPAA while a determined actor (with more control over the used networks can dig up the data trail. Ie. police in case of serious crimes such as CP. On a somewhat related note what was the name of the end of 90s pseudonymous network where you had to buy a 'nym' and could renew it for money?
- api 6y ago
  This actually uses ZeroTier under the hood. It uses ZT as the transport, encryption, and network virtualization layer and then does P2P exit node stuff on top of that. ZT would be useful for this from an oppressed country because it is used by a ton of businesses. You would just look like you were accessing a corporate ZeroTier DVPN from home, which is pretty common these days. That's better in some ways than Tor. The problem with Tor is if you use it naked then it can be obvious that you're using Tor. Even in countries like the USA I've always been concerned that using Tor might put you in some kind of database. In a very non-free country I'd be really worried about using Tor naked, meaning without running it over something more mundane looking like ZT or Wireguard.

by api 6y ago

ignoramous 6y ago

Lantern [0] and Pisphon.ca do so, too, since it is an effective anti-censorship deterrent. Also, industry leaders like NordVPN and ExpressVPN may engage in P2P routing especially to unblock services like Netflix and Disney+ [1]. HolaVPN unapologetically does this too [2]. All of this is discounting the new-age dVPNs like Orchid (not quite the Tor replacement that was promised [3]) and Mysterium [4]. [0] https://archive.is/lDXR4 https://archive.is/lDXR4 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664692 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9614993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9614993 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15576457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15576457 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14331049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14331049

oefrha 6y ago
Routing traffic for specific domains with known legal content is questionable practice, but at least it’s safe from the specific concern here (until someone finds an exploit, maybe a bad domain parser or something). Routing arbitrary traffic is plain risky, it is entirely conceivable to be arrested for it, or at least be searched, whether you can explain it away later or not. “Other providers are doing it too” hardly makes it any less risky.
- qeternity 6y ago
  All it takes is for someone to make a threat of violence in the comments section of a known service, or to post links to abusive material.

RealStickman_ 6y ago

My thoughts exactly. How ironic that you'd need another VPN to be safe enough for daily use.

risyachka 6y ago

Shouldn't prosecutors prove that it was you and not someone else?

detaro 6y ago
"Should", yes. (Details obviously depend on jurisdiction) For that, they get a warrant to search your home and for your computers to be confiscated to do the forensic analysis on them. You might get them back after a few years if nothing can be proven. They also might tie you into it for knowingly supporting it by installing such a VPN, some places make you responsible for everything happening through your connection by default. See the "fun" people operating TOR exit nodes have for what can happen.
- risyachka 6y ago
  True, but there is a big difference in operating an exit node and using a VPN. Millions have VPNs installed. These is only a small amount of exit notes, and millions use VPN. I'd argue that the chance of being accused because someone used your connection in p2p VPN is less than when someone will use your wifi to do something illegal.
  - _jal 6y ago
    The more relevant question is, what does this software offer that would make it worth taking on this risk? For whatever values of 'this risk' you evaluate running this code to carry. Arguing semantics with a prosecutor might be your idea of a good time, but that seems to me like the sort of thing I could do without. In any case, they may call this a VPN, but it isn't a VPN in the sense that term is normally used, and it certainly isn't even vaguely similar to that VPN connection you make to the office.
- chii 6y ago
  Why can't anyone who join be incorporated as a utilities provider, and shed the responsibility of monitoring the traffic (and the legality of it) to the initiator of said traffic? I mean, ISPs do this don't they? Telephone networks do this don't they?

Fnoord 6y ago

This seems like a decent tool to use in an oppressed, non-free country. Except Tor (or Whonix or Tails), WireGuard, or ZeroTier are a better option. All of these allow better management (and therefore control) of routes. There is a very good reason Usenet does not require uploading, and P2P protocols like BitTorrent are used with a VPN. It provides a reasonable enough protection against a civil actor such as RIAA and MPAA while a determined actor (with more control over the used networks can dig up the data trail. Ie. police in case of serious crimes such as CP. On a somewhat related note what was the name of the end of 90s pseudonymous network where you had to buy a 'nym' and could renew it for money?

api 6y ago
This actually uses ZeroTier under the hood. It uses ZT as the transport, encryption, and network virtualization layer and then does P2P exit node stuff on top of that. ZT would be useful for this from an oppressed country because it is used by a ton of businesses. You would just look like you were accessing a corporate ZeroTier DVPN from home, which is pretty common these days. That's better in some ways than Tor. The problem with Tor is if you use it naked then it can be obvious that you're using Tor. Even in countries like the USA I've always been concerned that using Tor might put you in some kind of database. In a very non-free country I'd be really worried about using Tor naked, meaning without running it over something more mundane looking like ZT or Wireguard.