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I have two Teslas - Model S (from 2016) and Model 3 (2018). I believe the following are all true: - Tesla's build quality is quite bad - I hate Elon now becau

by dmode 6y ago

I have two Teslas - Model S (from 2016) and Model 3 (2018). I believe the following are all true: - Tesla's build quality is quite bad - I hate Elon now because of his nonsensical tweets and trying hard to stay cool and relevant - Tesla's false promises on Autopilot and Full Self Driving is a disgrace. They are at-least 20 years away from anything resembling close to L4, but still somehow siphon $8k from buyers with a false promise - Model 3 is the BEST car I have ever driven. It is awesome, and I would recommend anyone in a heartbeat

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enraged_camel 6y ago
How can a car have "quite bad" build quality and yet be "the BEST car you have ever driven"? Have you not driven any other cars?
- kevmo 6y ago
  My 98 Pontiac Bonneville drives better than a Model 3.
  - fhe 6y ago
    Just curious: could you define better?
- ReverseCold 6y ago
  Just because it’s electric (feels really nice to drive), the range is good, and there’s a lot of storage space. Also, some other cars at the same price range have weird feature omissions like no rear seat-warmers or no automatic wipers, etc. But yes it’s clearly not as well put together as other cars. I don’t see how these are mutually exclusive.
  - tobyhinloopen 6y ago
    What about a Volvo S60? I think the S60 is much nicer than a Model 3, and it’s similarly priced depending on what country you’re in
- strawberrypuree 6y ago
  Build quality is not the be-all, end-all of measurements in deciding the “best” car. This is a really common viewpoint among Tesla owners. We have our gripes, but those gripes are overshadowed by other things like the infotainment, acceleration, software, etc.
  - enraged_camel 6y ago
    I mean we're talking about a car that literally has the risk of its roof blowing off. How can that NOT be the end-all-be-all?
    - nightfly 6y ago
      Model 3 != Model Y And other cars have had worse defects, (SUV rollovers, wiring fires, etc)
  - spaceisballer 6y ago
    Also matters what build quality people are referring to. I know there have been plenty of people complaining online. Now a roof flies off of a Model Y and that’s terrible. But I’m not sure why all the other recalls don’t get as much coverage and this Model Y. I mean Volvo just had a recall for the Polestar for a problem that would cause total power loss. I understand Tesla is the hotness to hate and love.
- jayd16 6y ago
  You just take it to the dealer under warranty and sort out enough of the problems, I assume.
- gambiting 6y ago
  I mean, I used to have a Mercedes AMG before my current one, and it was simultaniously the worst and the best car I have ever owned. The worst because it was uncomfortable and built like a horse cart, everything in this brand new, very expensive mercedes creaked, rattled and squeaked. I've been back to the garage so many times for "minor" fixes just to make the car usable I nearly ended up hating it after the first year, then kind of ended up learning to live it and started enjoying it more. Which brings me to the other side - I loved the way it drove, it was like the extension of my mind and my body, it was like glued to the road and like a rocket if you wanted it to be. So yeah, I totally 100% get how you can simultaneously love and hate a car, especially if it's an expensive one.
  - henrikschroder 6y ago
    Out of curiosity, a Mercedes AMG... what? C? E? G? SL? S?
    - gambiting 6y ago
      GLA45. Which yes, is nothing more than a fancy A class, so some excuses I've heard were "well, it's a 'cheap' AMG, what were you expecting". I don't know what was I expecting, maybe only that a £55k car won't have crappy plastics everywhere that creak every time you go over any bump. Having said that - I've spent enough time on AMG forums to know that the same problem exists even if you buy a C63 or E63, the build quality of the interior just isn't great(while the mechanical engineering arguably is, those cars are very reliable when it comes to the actual mechanical bits)
      - henrikschroder 6y ago
        Well, it is a cheap AMG... :-P But yeah, that's a weird segment that car is in. It's expensive, because the engine is expensive, but at the same time you're getting the exact same interior and fit-and-finish as the non-AMG versions of that class, which means an AMG S-class is very nice, while an AMG A-class is just not very nice at all. So yeah, your experience sounds exactly like what I would expect out of that specific model, and by just looking at the price tag, it's not very intuitive that that's what you're gonna get.
- spaceisballer 6y ago
  I guess people talk about build quality but my two year old Model 3 hasn’t had any issues. I will only buy electric cars from this point on after having the Model 3. How quick it is and I also happen to love the touchscreen and UI. Also no oil changes is fantastic. I’ve only rotated tires. My Audi maintenance costs just kept rising and rising. It’s odd people compare the Model 3 to a wide range of cars when it seems more apt to compare it to ICE cars like Audi A4 and BMW 3 Series. I think it’s superior to those cars, I don’t miss the amount of buttons they all have (buttons I personally never use). And I feel like all car interiors have started to get very cheap.
lisper 6y ago
In light of: > Tesla's build quality is quite bad > Model 3 is the BEST car I have ever driven I feel compelled to ask, what else have you driven?
- deleted 6y ago
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- screye 6y ago
  The model 3 is among the best driving cars. It accelerates very fast, is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground, and they provide smooth power across all speed ranges, due to torque being provided directly at the wheels and the lack of a gear box. Tesla cars also have far more trunk space and highest in class safety ratings. They also have an 'appealing' design which includes the titular panoramic roof. Now the car is unpolished across the board. Be that manufacturing, interior materials or general care for UX. But those things matter far more to enthusiasts. Your average family owner cares more about all of Tesla's positives. If Tesla can provide good customer service and aftermarket support, (which it has historically been terrible at) then I can see the other shortcomings not being deal breakers at all. Now my dream car will stay the Mazda 3 2021. But, I am a certain type of weird.
  - FireBeyond 6y ago
    > It accelerates very fast, is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground, and they provide smooth power across all speed ranges, due to torque being provided directly at the wheels and the lack of a gear box. What about handling in corners, etc., ride comfort? Genuinely curious. I have driven a (2016?) Model S a few times, and wasn't hugely impressed with the handling (beyond as you same, the very valid straight line acceleration and linear-ish power curve), compared to my Audi, or Jaguar.
    - abc_lisper 6y ago
      Its a joy in the corners. The batteries have all the weight, and that weight is at the center of the car, and you get a car that spins like a top(when you want to). My last accord (2015) had better ride quality. I was honestly very impressed with autopilot(works for commuter traffic very well) and handling..
aerovistae 6y ago
20 years? lol ill take that bet
- enahs-sf 6y ago
  I wonder what capabilities they have versus what they turn on for the general public due to regulation and safety. I would imagine that to release FSD in the wild will require an insanely high factor of safety.
- JshWright 6y ago
  Are you taking the over or the under?
- yumraj 6y ago
  You’re guessing more than 20 years or less?
  - aerovistae 6y ago
    much less
    - Judgmentality 6y ago
      How much less do you want to bet on? Also how much do you want to bet?
      - aerovistae 6y ago
        I'd put $100 that a tesla will be able to take you from start to destination without help in no more than six years, and I think I'm being conservative.
        kindatrue 6y ago
        >from start to destination without help You might want to narrow this down by location. Take a 10 mile trip in Menlo Park (which they once called "urban" in a video) is different than a 10 mile trip in Manhattan... in February
rkagerer 6y ago
Can you tell us what you love about the Model 3 that makes up for all the bad?
- ppezaris 6y ago
  it'm not OP but i can tell you what i love about my model s. (coming from an aston martin db7 convertible). it's the quickest car i've ever driven, by far. instant acceleration. it's better than the day i bought it. my car has learned to do a lot of things through software updates. my aston had a nav system that was obsolete the day i bought it (new), and criminally dinosaur-land by the time i sold it. hands-down best nav system of any car i've ever been in, and that's something you use with every drive. hands-down best infotainment system. i have tunein, podcasts, radio, bluetooth, all on a giant screen that makes it super easy to pick entertainment while driving. autopilot rocks, especially on highways. driving from florida to boston and back within a week was really no big deal. no way i could have done that in any of my previous cars without being exhausted. it's surprisingly large for a car that's so stupidly quick. it fits five adults, plus a giant trunk in the back and a small trunk in the front. 0-60 faster than you want or need. convenience is off the charts. you get to the destination and you just leave the car. it takes car of turning itself off, turning off the lights, and locking the doors. every time i rent a car now i am reminded just how many "things" you have to do each time you enter/exit. easier to not have to think about it. it's got remote control. i can set the climate, make the car move, or trigger my garage door to open all from my phone. i can also track it when i park it via valet. speaking of valet, it has valet mode, so when i drop it off the car's acceleration and top speed is limited, and the glovebox and frunk can't be opened. i never have to stop at a gas station because it charges at home. so i always have a full "tank". it's surprising how awesome this is. the list goes on... it's just a really phenomenal car.
  - goguy 6y ago
    Navigation and entertainment are moot points IMO. Practically every care has android auto/carplay these days.
    - 6y ago
enahs-sf 6y ago
> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad I'd rather get the kinks out upfront whereas owning an aging bmw (or most german cars really), you get hammered on maintenance and unexpected repairs.
- tobyhinloopen 6y ago
  Let’s see how maintenance and unexpected repairs work out for “aging” Tesla’s. I don’t know what I would trust more - a 10 year old Tesla, or a 10 year old BMW
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    Given the simplicity of electric cars I feel like the Tesla would be in a pretty good spot. But Tesla's continuous improvement means parts aren't tied to model years and are often already hard to track down. They're not going to be made by third parties given the lack of scale. I'm foreseeing small faults totalling otherwise perfectly good cars later on in the current generation. If Tesla ramps up like they're claiming though, this problem will sort itself out.
    - monadic2 6y ago
      I don't know anything about cars, but do those old BMWs have software that requires maintenance? Tesla likely will.
      - reitzensteinm 6y ago
        At some point they can just freeze the upgrades like Apple does and just provide maintenance. A bit of a pain to be supporting some LTS versions, but not that big relative to the billions in sales you're supporting with it.
        monadic2 6y ago
        Presumably they'll end of life the car at some point and repair will shift to third party shops. Do they have access to the internals of the car?
hamiltont 6y ago
For what it's worth, I have an almost identical experience. Build quality is not good, and every service-center visit leaves you feeling like they are stuffing the service centers with way more issues than the people there can handle. Even with all this, the drive feel of my MS is insane and the screen/app are lightyears ahead. I honestly enjoy driving again, even pre-pandemic with crazy traffic. Their offering is so good it outweighs the crappy support. If some other car company would step up to the plate and try to complete with similar tech but offering higher reliability, I would go for a test drive immediately. Side-note: service at Tesla used to be golden. When they first started, they all knew they were pricy cars and everyone expected some growing pains leading to QC issues. It was great - they would loan you a top-model performance tesla while your car was in the shop (great up-sell!!!), they were doing far more of their "mobile service" (super handy, they drive to you and fix the car where you are), and you would get one agent that called you almost daily with an update. As they have expanded more towards mass market they have gone the way of google - trying to automate humans out of the loop. It's basically a miracle to talk to a human at a service center now, everything is "schedule it in-app where you get 200 characters to explain your issue, we send over an estimate, you can't call to discuss it either approve or don't, drop your car, use our SMS platform for 100% of communications because email might "violate your privacy" (read: leave a data trail), handle the fact that different agents get your SMS at different times and some have no idea what the history is, handle that agents now "have to reply to all messages before they leave" and you're getting hurried "here's my panicked update" messages at 11:30 at night. I personally feel they missed an opportunity to offer "luxury service lanes" for folks buying the luxury line when they went mass market.
- amatecha 6y ago
  Dang, this sounds like taking literally everything I hate about "the future", and doubling down on it. I just had a bad experience with a dealership where I thought my thorough explanation (including error codes) was sufficient to narrow down the issue, but they completely ignored anything I said and did their own thing, which ended up solving exactly nothing. I ended up getting the diagnostic fee waived and have now taken the vehicle to an independent shop, where I can speak 1:1 to the owner and actually have my input listened to and respected.
the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
> - Model 3 is the BEST car I have ever driven. It is awesome, and I would recommend anyone in a heartbeat I feel like this car has been hyped up so much that once I had the chance to drive it I was massively disappointed.
- abc_lisper 6y ago
  Honestly, it depends on what other cars you have already driven. Many people who buy model 3 don’t come from higher priced luxury cars. Model 3 is better than bmw 3 series in driving, but not as good as their m3
  - the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
    A Model 3 SR+ with the towing hook costs 50.000 EUR in Austria (where I live). For that money I can buy a lot of other car.
    - abc_lisper 6y ago
      Yeah, I only got it because I have 2.5 hrs of commute and I was getting frustrated driving into the sun both ways in stop and go traffic
      - kkotak 6y ago
        How did a Tesla fix that?
        abc_lisper 6y ago
        Autopilot. Just Stay in your lane, and forget about break/accelerator dance. It may extend your commute by 5 or 10 minutes, but man, it is a massive help. Other cars have some limited capabilities like this, but they don't seem to drive the car with the same confidence, IMO. Tesla's version drives through curves with ease, and for the most part, i only leave a finger on the steering, just in case.
FireBeyond 6y ago
> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad I think I've seen people advertising, literally, "Ship your brand new Tesla to me, and I'll get the body work/alignment perfect and ship it on to you" services. Not sure how real, or valid, but something of an indictment. > - Tesla's false promises on Autopilot and Full Self Driving is a disgrace. They are at-least 20 years away from anything resembling close to L4, but still somehow siphon $8k from buyers with a false promise Yeah, at this point it's almost Kickstarter-esque (for better, and worse).
- sk5t 6y ago
  > I think I've seen people advertising, literally, "Ship your brand new Tesla to me, and I'll get the body work/alignment perfect and ship it on to you" services. Not sure how real, or valid, but something of an indictment. Hah! This kind of service exists for top-tier saxophones. Spend $6,000 or whatever for a Selmer Paris horn, then take it to a technician to "set up" the springs, pads, etc. Nevertheless it is pretty sad when GM is knocking out junk with better body/panel QC.
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    > Nevertheless it is pretty sad when GM is knocking out junk with better body/panel QC. You would think they'd have learned something about manufacturing mass market automobiles in 100 years of business...
    - sk5t 6y ago
      The challenge with GM is to get them to care about a quality issue when there is otherwise $2 to be pocketed. Like, it's not that GM doesn't know how. The funny thing is to compare a vehicle where nobody would even expect GM to think about caring--maybe a Traverse or a Terrain (not a Corvette!)--and even that is better than Tesla's panel fit.
      - ethbr0 6y ago
        My hypothesis (not being an industrial engineer) is that most inputs to panel fit are more capital & process (one-time) than operational (per-car) expenses. If GM developed a tight-tolerance process & machinery for the Corvette, it's probably a wash (capital cost vs standardization of process) to just apply it to their other lines, albeit relaxing the specs to increase yield. I'm not saying GM has been innovating continuously, but my experience with long-lived processes is that instantaneous improvement is far harder than continual improvement (iterating fixes), due to the specific variables and lagging feedback in play.
throwawaysea 6y ago
Regarding Autopilot, friends who are Tesla owners treat the Full Service Driving option as a way to get early access to new technology and fund its development. I do wish the false promises were not made at all, but I also think at this point people know what they're signing up for. Looking at how it performs (example: https://youtu.be/ZcW7nzmm79E https://youtu.be/ZcW7nzmm79E), I would say they have the best implementation out there.
president 6y ago
> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad You can blame today's rushed run-fast-break-things work culture that push engineers and line workers to their limits. Especially true of what I know from people that work/have worked at Tesla.
myrandomcomment 6y ago
I have test drove the S,3,X and while the power was pretty neat, the build quality is a deal breaker for me after having both MB & Porsche. I am waiting for them to get that sorted out before I buy one. We have 2 Porsches now which are fantastic. I am committed to not buying another gas powered car at this point so I am looking forward to the other manufactures catching up with Tesla on their BEV offerings. As a history - old 1960s Mustang, 1990s Dodge, 1990s Pontiac, 2000s MB ML AMG, 2000s Ford(s), 1990s Jaguar, 2000s Suzuki, 2000s Honda(s) (I loved the Element. Great car with small kids - if they made a new one I would buy it!), 2010s MB C-Class, 2010s Porsche(s). Hum. I am missing something...oh well.
gkfasdfasdf 6y ago
2019 Model 3 owner and 100% agree on points 1, 3, and 4. About Elon, he's had some bad takes on Covid, but other than that he really is driving humanity forward.
- deleted 6y ago
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throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Pretty much everyone's current car is the "best car they have ever driven" because cars get nicer with time and people generally get richer and able to afford nicer ones as they get older.
- neolog 6y ago
  Good point.
- derefr 6y ago
  Unless you’re the type of person who test-drives cars you can’t afford, just for the experience of it; and then ends up buying something cheaper that is, by comparison, full of compromises.
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
    They call that joy riding. My brother worked at a car dealership a few years ago. He'd sometimes have people driving some 20+ year old economy car asking to test drive a Nissan GT-R. When he told them they would have to run a credit check before even doing the test drive, the customers changed their mind. Did he perhaps lose a couple possibly genuine sales? Maybe, but likely not. Heck, I wanted to create an appointment to test drive a Subaru BRZ and I had to put down a $500 deposit to "reserve the car so they don't sell it before then", which would have been 100% refundable if I chose not to buy the car. I did end up buying the car, but they never charged a deposit at all. My brother said that they probably never even actually recorded my credit card number anywhere, and the supposed requirement for a deposit exists purely to eliminate joy riders.
- sethherr 6y ago
  Whoah. Not my experience at all, and I suspect not a lot of other people’s experience either. This is only true if you prioritize car ownership. I have a crappy car that isn’t fun to drive, and I’m happy with that.
  - jtbayly 6y ago
reader_mode 6y ago
I think last two points are contradictory because Tesla optimised interior design for self driving - they skipped out on driver instruments in your direct FOV or a windshield HUD - electric car market is still kind of new but the newcomers seem promising - TBH if an electric car fit my lifestyle I'd be looking at Jaguar iPace over Tesla model Y.
- tinco 6y ago
  The ipace competes with the model x, not with the model y.
  - reader_mode 6y ago
    I feel like model S and X are outdated at this point and AFAIK Elon said they don't plan to refresh them so I wouldn't even consider those if buying new.
    - maxdo 6y ago
      They added a lot of things in 2020 , including newer batteries etc , model s 2021 plaid will be the fastest production car on this planet :) until roadster will be released
petarb 6y ago
I drove a 1999 Mitsubishi Montero Sport, 2004 Volvo XC90 and a 2017 Prius Prime. Family had a variety of Honda and Toyota sedans I tried. Would have to agree that Model 3 is by far the best car I have driven. I wouldn’t trade it for any other car in the world, except maybe a Model Y.
- tpmx 6y ago
  So you drove a BEV and liked it, and it happened to be a Tesla.
maxdo 6y ago
Model Y owner, totally agree, quality is I would say ok in my case. I'm New Yorker, and the way people drive here, it's like they're not even close , don't spent those $8k. For me that package partially was cool for smart summon, but I need real efforts even to pull my car out of home driveway which is narrow yeah, but totally doable by human, nothing hard...
bcrescimanno 6y ago
Former Model S owner here. Tesla quality, for the prices they charge, is insulting. I had a Model S for 3 years, put about 20K miles on it (which means I wasn’t a “heavy” driver by any means) and it was rattling, had massive panel gaps in the body, and all kinds of little bits just starting to fall apart. The charger door wouldn’t stay closed and eventually broke due to coming open on the highway so many times. After just 20K miles, the car honestly felt like a car feels after you put 150K miles on it. Then there’s the service. I got an indicator on the massive screen telling me that the radiator needed service. I called the Service center and was told by two different people, “that’s not possible because our cars don’t have radiators.” I said, “look, I’m not the technician here, you are; but, I am reading you the message that the car has on the screen.” Finally got someone who acknowledged that, yes, Tesla’s do have radiators and I brought it in. When I picked it up, the Air Conditioning didn’t work. In the middle of Summer. I called them and told them and they told me there were no openings for service for 6 weeks. After arguing with the service manager for 20 minutes on the phone, he agreed to have me come in the next day and, sure enough, they’d forgotten to reconnect it when they were working on it. Was it the worst car I’ve ever owned? Honestly, it might have been. When I factor in that it cost over $90K, it’s definitely the worst car purchase I’ve ever made.
- jermaustin1 6y ago
  > After just 20K miles, the car honestly felt like a car feels after you put 150K miles on it. I put over 200k on my 2013 Corolla, and that car still felt new except for a plastic pin that broke the first week on the rear driver quarter panel. I was on a road trip with my wife from Houston to Vegas and heard a flapping while on the highway, I pulled off and saw the panel was loose, I pulled off at the next town, got some super glue from a pharmacy and a stick from the side of the road, and that held solid until I traded it in for $2500 off a Chevy Trax this year (we moved to Upstate NY a few years ago, and we now need the AWD).
  - nojvek 6y ago
    I’ve been a Toyota fan for a long time. I’m not a super rich guy so it fits my style for having some reliable and affordable. I’ve been tempted for Tesla many times. Sure being green is cool but the complexity of engineering puts me off. Electric cars have less moving parts. They should be more reliable and well built than a gas guzzler but I couldn’t say that for Tesla. Too many bells and whistles for my need. Comma.ai satisfies my hands off highway autonomous needs for <$1000 on my 3 year old RAV4 hybrid. Just great value for money.
Animats 6y ago
Remember how much trouble Tesla had getting the Model 3 production line going. They were operating out of a tent next to the plant at one point. Of course they have build quality problems. Musk's solution to Tesla being unable to make "Full Self Driving" work is to redefine "Full Self Driving" as a slightly better driver assistance system and blame regulators.[1] [1] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121787_tesla-full-self-driving-will-still-require-drivers-when-it-arrives-later-this-year https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121787_tesla-full-self...
- deleted 6y ago
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zwily 6y ago
Mostly agree with you, and I’m on my second Tesla too. Even on a bad day I’d much rather be driving my X than anything else.
api 6y ago
I still love and very much support what Elon is doing with SpaceX, but Tesla seems to be this weird company with one foot in amazing and another foot in disaster. It's like the worst best car company at the same time. I have heard many, many Tesla owners complain about build quality, but others say it's fine. It appears to be hit or miss, which is typical for a poorly optimized manufacturing process. Some cars come off the line in good shape and others have ridiculous problems or bad panel alignment, etc. Tesla's support is also apparently a fucking disaster, which is a common pattern with Silicon Valley companies... even large and cash-flush ones like Apple and Google. SV does not do support or customer service after the purchase. Elon's behavior on Twitter is nuts and makes me concerned about him. His COVID nonsense is the worst so far. Hopefully he holds it together long enough for Starship to be fully operational before he completely loses his mind.
nimbius 6y ago
If you think owning one is a nightmare, try working on them. I work on large truck engines for a living, but know a small shop about 35 miles down the road that claims to be an "authorized" Tesla service center...one of the few in the midwest. while other automotive manufacturers have robust supply chains and networks, tesla doesnt. most of your parts (bearings, panels, drivetrain) all come from California and only from the factory. It means they can save a ton of money by foregoing a traditional network but in return, repair shops are often on the hook for weeks or months of outstanding invoices waiting for parts, and have to gingerly explain to customers why their new model X will take 4 weeks to get the window fixed. This isnt to say Tesla uses a ton of custom parts! chargers and electronics are all rebranded (or stock) webasto. parts for the brakes are Ensco or industry-standard (mexican) forged parts. you can work on these yourself but god in heaven help you if Tesla finds out you didnt go through them. In some cases parts for the car are significantly better in the aftermarket. You can improve steering and handling significantly if you eschew Elons pet rebranded control arms. From what Ive heard, be very careful with the giant television in the center console. repair parts (if youre not from the golden coast) can take months, installation or replacement is a bear, and the controller for the unit has to be shipped back to Tesla before they will even send a new one.

by dmode 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

enraged_camel 6y ago

How can a car have "quite bad" build quality and yet be "the BEST car you have ever driven"? Have you not driven any other cars?

kevmo 6y ago
My 98 Pontiac Bonneville drives better than a Model 3.
- fhe 6y ago
  Just curious: could you define better?
ReverseCold 6y ago
Just because it’s electric (feels really nice to drive), the range is good, and there’s a lot of storage space. Also, some other cars at the same price range have weird feature omissions like no rear seat-warmers or no automatic wipers, etc. But yes it’s clearly not as well put together as other cars. I don’t see how these are mutually exclusive.
- tobyhinloopen 6y ago
  What about a Volvo S60? I think the S60 is much nicer than a Model 3, and it’s similarly priced depending on what country you’re in
strawberrypuree 6y ago
Build quality is not the be-all, end-all of measurements in deciding the “best” car. This is a really common viewpoint among Tesla owners. We have our gripes, but those gripes are overshadowed by other things like the infotainment, acceleration, software, etc.
- enraged_camel 6y ago
  I mean we're talking about a car that literally has the risk of its roof blowing off. How can that NOT be the end-all-be-all?
  - nightfly 6y ago
    Model 3 != Model Y And other cars have had worse defects, (SUV rollovers, wiring fires, etc)
- spaceisballer 6y ago
  Also matters what build quality people are referring to. I know there have been plenty of people complaining online. Now a roof flies off of a Model Y and that’s terrible. But I’m not sure why all the other recalls don’t get as much coverage and this Model Y. I mean Volvo just had a recall for the Polestar for a problem that would cause total power loss. I understand Tesla is the hotness to hate and love.
jayd16 6y ago
You just take it to the dealer under warranty and sort out enough of the problems, I assume.
gambiting 6y ago
I mean, I used to have a Mercedes AMG before my current one, and it was simultaniously the worst and the best car I have ever owned. The worst because it was uncomfortable and built like a horse cart, everything in this brand new, very expensive mercedes creaked, rattled and squeaked. I've been back to the garage so many times for "minor" fixes just to make the car usable I nearly ended up hating it after the first year, then kind of ended up learning to live it and started enjoying it more. Which brings me to the other side - I loved the way it drove, it was like the extension of my mind and my body, it was like glued to the road and like a rocket if you wanted it to be. So yeah, I totally 100% get how you can simultaneously love and hate a car, especially if it's an expensive one.
- henrikschroder 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, a Mercedes AMG... what? C? E? G? SL? S?
  - gambiting 6y ago
    GLA45. Which yes, is nothing more than a fancy A class, so some excuses I've heard were "well, it's a 'cheap' AMG, what were you expecting". I don't know what was I expecting, maybe only that a £55k car won't have crappy plastics everywhere that creak every time you go over any bump. Having said that - I've spent enough time on AMG forums to know that the same problem exists even if you buy a C63 or E63, the build quality of the interior just isn't great(while the mechanical engineering arguably is, those cars are very reliable when it comes to the actual mechanical bits)
    - henrikschroder 6y ago
      Well, it is a cheap AMG... :-P But yeah, that's a weird segment that car is in. It's expensive, because the engine is expensive, but at the same time you're getting the exact same interior and fit-and-finish as the non-AMG versions of that class, which means an AMG S-class is very nice, while an AMG A-class is just not very nice at all. So yeah, your experience sounds exactly like what I would expect out of that specific model, and by just looking at the price tag, it's not very intuitive that that's what you're gonna get.
spaceisballer 6y ago
I guess people talk about build quality but my two year old Model 3 hasn’t had any issues. I will only buy electric cars from this point on after having the Model 3. How quick it is and I also happen to love the touchscreen and UI. Also no oil changes is fantastic. I’ve only rotated tires. My Audi maintenance costs just kept rising and rising. It’s odd people compare the Model 3 to a wide range of cars when it seems more apt to compare it to ICE cars like Audi A4 and BMW 3 Series. I think it’s superior to those cars, I don’t miss the amount of buttons they all have (buttons I personally never use). And I feel like all car interiors have started to get very cheap.

lisper 6y ago

In light of: > Tesla's build quality is quite bad > Model 3 is the BEST car I have ever driven I feel compelled to ask, what else have you driven?

deleted 6y ago
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screye 6y ago
The model 3 is among the best driving cars. It accelerates very fast, is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground, and they provide smooth power across all speed ranges, due to torque being provided directly at the wheels and the lack of a gear box. Tesla cars also have far more trunk space and highest in class safety ratings. They also have an 'appealing' design which includes the titular panoramic roof. Now the car is unpolished across the board. Be that manufacturing, interior materials or general care for UX. But those things matter far more to enthusiasts. Your average family owner cares more about all of Tesla's positives. If Tesla can provide good customer service and aftermarket support, (which it has historically been terrible at) then I can see the other shortcomings not being deal breakers at all. Now my dream car will stay the Mazda 3 2021. But, I am a certain type of weird.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  > It accelerates very fast, is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground, and they provide smooth power across all speed ranges, due to torque being provided directly at the wheels and the lack of a gear box. What about handling in corners, etc., ride comfort? Genuinely curious. I have driven a (2016?) Model S a few times, and wasn't hugely impressed with the handling (beyond as you same, the very valid straight line acceleration and linear-ish power curve), compared to my Audi, or Jaguar.
  - abc_lisper 6y ago
    Its a joy in the corners. The batteries have all the weight, and that weight is at the center of the car, and you get a car that spins like a top(when you want to). My last accord (2015) had better ride quality. I was honestly very impressed with autopilot(works for commuter traffic very well) and handling..

aerovistae 6y ago

20 years? lol ill take that bet

enahs-sf 6y ago
I wonder what capabilities they have versus what they turn on for the general public due to regulation and safety. I would imagine that to release FSD in the wild will require an insanely high factor of safety.
JshWright 6y ago
Are you taking the over or the under?
yumraj 6y ago
You’re guessing more than 20 years or less?
- aerovistae 6y ago
  much less
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    How much less do you want to bet on? Also how much do you want to bet?
    - aerovistae 6y ago
      I'd put $100 that a tesla will be able to take you from start to destination without help in no more than six years, and I think I'm being conservative.
      - kindatrue 6y ago
        >from start to destination without help You might want to narrow this down by location. Take a 10 mile trip in Menlo Park (which they once called "urban" in a video) is different than a 10 mile trip in Manhattan... in February

rkagerer 6y ago

Can you tell us what you love about the Model 3 that makes up for all the bad?

ppezaris 6y ago
it'm not OP but i can tell you what i love about my model s. (coming from an aston martin db7 convertible). it's the quickest car i've ever driven, by far. instant acceleration. it's better than the day i bought it. my car has learned to do a lot of things through software updates. my aston had a nav system that was obsolete the day i bought it (new), and criminally dinosaur-land by the time i sold it. hands-down best nav system of any car i've ever been in, and that's something you use with every drive. hands-down best infotainment system. i have tunein, podcasts, radio, bluetooth, all on a giant screen that makes it super easy to pick entertainment while driving. autopilot rocks, especially on highways. driving from florida to boston and back within a week was really no big deal. no way i could have done that in any of my previous cars without being exhausted. it's surprisingly large for a car that's so stupidly quick. it fits five adults, plus a giant trunk in the back and a small trunk in the front. 0-60 faster than you want or need. convenience is off the charts. you get to the destination and you just leave the car. it takes car of turning itself off, turning off the lights, and locking the doors. every time i rent a car now i am reminded just how many "things" you have to do each time you enter/exit. easier to not have to think about it. it's got remote control. i can set the climate, make the car move, or trigger my garage door to open all from my phone. i can also track it when i park it via valet. speaking of valet, it has valet mode, so when i drop it off the car's acceleration and top speed is limited, and the glovebox and frunk can't be opened. i never have to stop at a gas station because it charges at home. so i always have a full "tank". it's surprising how awesome this is. the list goes on... it's just a really phenomenal car.
- goguy 6y ago
  Navigation and entertainment are moot points IMO. Practically every care has android auto/carplay these days.
  - 6y ago

enahs-sf 6y ago

> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad I'd rather get the kinks out upfront whereas owning an aging bmw (or most german cars really), you get hammered on maintenance and unexpected repairs.

tobyhinloopen 6y ago
Let’s see how maintenance and unexpected repairs work out for “aging” Tesla’s. I don’t know what I would trust more - a 10 year old Tesla, or a 10 year old BMW
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  Given the simplicity of electric cars I feel like the Tesla would be in a pretty good spot. But Tesla's continuous improvement means parts aren't tied to model years and are often already hard to track down. They're not going to be made by third parties given the lack of scale. I'm foreseeing small faults totalling otherwise perfectly good cars later on in the current generation. If Tesla ramps up like they're claiming though, this problem will sort itself out.
  - monadic2 6y ago
    I don't know anything about cars, but do those old BMWs have software that requires maintenance? Tesla likely will.
    - reitzensteinm 6y ago
      At some point they can just freeze the upgrades like Apple does and just provide maintenance. A bit of a pain to be supporting some LTS versions, but not that big relative to the billions in sales you're supporting with it.
      - monadic2 6y ago
        Presumably they'll end of life the car at some point and repair will shift to third party shops. Do they have access to the internals of the car?

hamiltont 6y ago

For what it's worth, I have an almost identical experience. Build quality is not good, and every service-center visit leaves you feeling like they are stuffing the service centers with way more issues than the people there can handle. Even with all this, the drive feel of my MS is insane and the screen/app are lightyears ahead. I honestly enjoy driving again, even pre-pandemic with crazy traffic. Their offering is so good it outweighs the crappy support. If some other car company would step up to the plate and try to complete with similar tech but offering higher reliability, I would go for a test drive immediately. Side-note: service at Tesla used to be golden. When they first started, they all knew they were pricy cars and everyone expected some growing pains leading to QC issues. It was great - they would loan you a top-model performance tesla while your car was in the shop (great up-sell!!!), they were doing far more of their "mobile service" (super handy, they drive to you and fix the car where you are), and you would get one agent that called you almost daily with an update. As they have expanded more towards mass market they have gone the way of google - trying to automate humans out of the loop. It's basically a miracle to talk to a human at a service center now, everything is "schedule it in-app where you get 200 characters to explain your issue, we send over an estimate, you can't call to discuss it either approve or don't, drop your car, use our SMS platform for 100% of communications because email might "violate your privacy" (read: leave a data trail), handle the fact that different agents get your SMS at different times and some have no idea what the history is, handle that agents now "have to reply to all messages before they leave" and you're getting hurried "here's my panicked update" messages at 11:30 at night. I personally feel they missed an opportunity to offer "luxury service lanes" for folks buying the luxury line when they went mass market.

amatecha 6y ago
Dang, this sounds like taking literally everything I hate about "the future", and doubling down on it. I just had a bad experience with a dealership where I thought my thorough explanation (including error codes) was sufficient to narrow down the issue, but they completely ignored anything I said and did their own thing, which ended up solving exactly nothing. I ended up getting the diagnostic fee waived and have now taken the vehicle to an independent shop, where I can speak 1:1 to the owner and actually have my input listened to and respected.

the_mitsuhiko 6y ago

> - Model 3 is the BEST car I have ever driven. It is awesome, and I would recommend anyone in a heartbeat I feel like this car has been hyped up so much that once I had the chance to drive it I was massively disappointed.

abc_lisper 6y ago
Honestly, it depends on what other cars you have already driven. Many people who buy model 3 don’t come from higher priced luxury cars. Model 3 is better than bmw 3 series in driving, but not as good as their m3
- the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
  A Model 3 SR+ with the towing hook costs 50.000 EUR in Austria (where I live). For that money I can buy a lot of other car.
  - abc_lisper 6y ago
    Yeah, I only got it because I have 2.5 hrs of commute and I was getting frustrated driving into the sun both ways in stop and go traffic
    - kkotak 6y ago
      How did a Tesla fix that?
      - abc_lisper 6y ago
        Autopilot. Just Stay in your lane, and forget about break/accelerator dance. It may extend your commute by 5 or 10 minutes, but man, it is a massive help. Other cars have some limited capabilities like this, but they don't seem to drive the car with the same confidence, IMO. Tesla's version drives through curves with ease, and for the most part, i only leave a finger on the steering, just in case.

FireBeyond 6y ago

> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad I think I've seen people advertising, literally, "Ship your brand new Tesla to me, and I'll get the body work/alignment perfect and ship it on to you" services. Not sure how real, or valid, but something of an indictment. > - Tesla's false promises on Autopilot and Full Self Driving is a disgrace. They are at-least 20 years away from anything resembling close to L4, but still somehow siphon $8k from buyers with a false promise Yeah, at this point it's almost Kickstarter-esque (for better, and worse).

sk5t 6y ago
> I think I've seen people advertising, literally, "Ship your brand new Tesla to me, and I'll get the body work/alignment perfect and ship it on to you" services. Not sure how real, or valid, but something of an indictment. Hah! This kind of service exists for top-tier saxophones. Spend $6,000 or whatever for a Selmer Paris horn, then take it to a technician to "set up" the springs, pads, etc. Nevertheless it is pretty sad when GM is knocking out junk with better body/panel QC.
- ethbr0 6y ago
  > Nevertheless it is pretty sad when GM is knocking out junk with better body/panel QC. You would think they'd have learned something about manufacturing mass market automobiles in 100 years of business...
  - sk5t 6y ago
    The challenge with GM is to get them to care about a quality issue when there is otherwise $2 to be pocketed. Like, it's not that GM doesn't know how. The funny thing is to compare a vehicle where nobody would even expect GM to think about caring--maybe a Traverse or a Terrain (not a Corvette!)--and even that is better than Tesla's panel fit.
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      My hypothesis (not being an industrial engineer) is that most inputs to panel fit are more capital & process (one-time) than operational (per-car) expenses. If GM developed a tight-tolerance process & machinery for the Corvette, it's probably a wash (capital cost vs standardization of process) to just apply it to their other lines, albeit relaxing the specs to increase yield. I'm not saying GM has been innovating continuously, but my experience with long-lived processes is that instantaneous improvement is far harder than continual improvement (iterating fixes), due to the specific variables and lagging feedback in play.

throwawaysea 6y ago

Regarding Autopilot, friends who are Tesla owners treat the Full Service Driving option as a way to get early access to new technology and fund its development. I do wish the false promises were not made at all, but I also think at this point people know what they're signing up for. Looking at how it performs (example: https://youtu.be/ZcW7nzmm79E https://youtu.be/ZcW7nzmm79E), I would say they have the best implementation out there.

president 6y ago

> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad You can blame today's rushed run-fast-break-things work culture that push engineers and line workers to their limits. Especially true of what I know from people that work/have worked at Tesla.

myrandomcomment 6y ago

I have test drove the S,3,X and while the power was pretty neat, the build quality is a deal breaker for me after having both MB & Porsche. I am waiting for them to get that sorted out before I buy one. We have 2 Porsches now which are fantastic. I am committed to not buying another gas powered car at this point so I am looking forward to the other manufactures catching up with Tesla on their BEV offerings. As a history - old 1960s Mustang, 1990s Dodge, 1990s Pontiac, 2000s MB ML AMG, 2000s Ford(s), 1990s Jaguar, 2000s Suzuki, 2000s Honda(s) (I loved the Element. Great car with small kids - if they made a new one I would buy it!), 2010s MB C-Class, 2010s Porsche(s). Hum. I am missing something...oh well.

gkfasdfasdf 6y ago

2019 Model 3 owner and 100% agree on points 1, 3, and 4. About Elon, he's had some bad takes on Covid, but other than that he really is driving humanity forward.

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throwaway0a5e 6y ago

Pretty much everyone's current car is the "best car they have ever driven" because cars get nicer with time and people generally get richer and able to afford nicer ones as they get older.

neolog 6y ago
Good point.
derefr 6y ago
Unless you’re the type of person who test-drives cars you can’t afford, just for the experience of it; and then ends up buying something cheaper that is, by comparison, full of compromises.
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  They call that joy riding. My brother worked at a car dealership a few years ago. He'd sometimes have people driving some 20+ year old economy car asking to test drive a Nissan GT-R. When he told them they would have to run a credit check before even doing the test drive, the customers changed their mind. Did he perhaps lose a couple possibly genuine sales? Maybe, but likely not. Heck, I wanted to create an appointment to test drive a Subaru BRZ and I had to put down a $500 deposit to "reserve the car so they don't sell it before then", which would have been 100% refundable if I chose not to buy the car. I did end up buying the car, but they never charged a deposit at all. My brother said that they probably never even actually recorded my credit card number anywhere, and the supposed requirement for a deposit exists purely to eliminate joy riders.
sethherr 6y ago
Whoah. Not my experience at all, and I suspect not a lot of other people’s experience either. This is only true if you prioritize car ownership. I have a crappy car that isn’t fun to drive, and I’m happy with that.
- jtbayly 6y ago

reader_mode 6y ago

I think last two points are contradictory because Tesla optimised interior design for self driving - they skipped out on driver instruments in your direct FOV or a windshield HUD - electric car market is still kind of new but the newcomers seem promising - TBH if an electric car fit my lifestyle I'd be looking at Jaguar iPace over Tesla model Y.

tinco 6y ago
The ipace competes with the model x, not with the model y.
- reader_mode 6y ago
  I feel like model S and X are outdated at this point and AFAIK Elon said they don't plan to refresh them so I wouldn't even consider those if buying new.
  - maxdo 6y ago
    They added a lot of things in 2020 , including newer batteries etc , model s 2021 plaid will be the fastest production car on this planet :) until roadster will be released

petarb 6y ago

I drove a 1999 Mitsubishi Montero Sport, 2004 Volvo XC90 and a 2017 Prius Prime. Family had a variety of Honda and Toyota sedans I tried. Would have to agree that Model 3 is by far the best car I have driven. I wouldn’t trade it for any other car in the world, except maybe a Model Y.

tpmx 6y ago
So you drove a BEV and liked it, and it happened to be a Tesla.

maxdo 6y ago

Model Y owner, totally agree, quality is I would say ok in my case. I'm New Yorker, and the way people drive here, it's like they're not even close , don't spent those $8k. For me that package partially was cool for smart summon, but I need real efforts even to pull my car out of home driveway which is narrow yeah, but totally doable by human, nothing hard...

bcrescimanno 6y ago

Former Model S owner here. Tesla quality, for the prices they charge, is insulting. I had a Model S for 3 years, put about 20K miles on it (which means I wasn’t a “heavy” driver by any means) and it was rattling, had massive panel gaps in the body, and all kinds of little bits just starting to fall apart. The charger door wouldn’t stay closed and eventually broke due to coming open on the highway so many times. After just 20K miles, the car honestly felt like a car feels after you put 150K miles on it. Then there’s the service. I got an indicator on the massive screen telling me that the radiator needed service. I called the Service center and was told by two different people, “that’s not possible because our cars don’t have radiators.” I said, “look, I’m not the technician here, you are; but, I am reading you the message that the car has on the screen.” Finally got someone who acknowledged that, yes, Tesla’s do have radiators and I brought it in. When I picked it up, the Air Conditioning didn’t work. In the middle of Summer. I called them and told them and they told me there were no openings for service for 6 weeks. After arguing with the service manager for 20 minutes on the phone, he agreed to have me come in the next day and, sure enough, they’d forgotten to reconnect it when they were working on it. Was it the worst car I’ve ever owned? Honestly, it might have been. When I factor in that it cost over $90K, it’s definitely the worst car purchase I’ve ever made.

jermaustin1 6y ago
> After just 20K miles, the car honestly felt like a car feels after you put 150K miles on it. I put over 200k on my 2013 Corolla, and that car still felt new except for a plastic pin that broke the first week on the rear driver quarter panel. I was on a road trip with my wife from Houston to Vegas and heard a flapping while on the highway, I pulled off and saw the panel was loose, I pulled off at the next town, got some super glue from a pharmacy and a stick from the side of the road, and that held solid until I traded it in for $2500 off a Chevy Trax this year (we moved to Upstate NY a few years ago, and we now need the AWD).
- nojvek 6y ago
  I’ve been a Toyota fan for a long time. I’m not a super rich guy so it fits my style for having some reliable and affordable. I’ve been tempted for Tesla many times. Sure being green is cool but the complexity of engineering puts me off. Electric cars have less moving parts. They should be more reliable and well built than a gas guzzler but I couldn’t say that for Tesla. Too many bells and whistles for my need. Comma.ai satisfies my hands off highway autonomous needs for <$1000 on my 3 year old RAV4 hybrid. Just great value for money.

Animats 6y ago

Remember how much trouble Tesla had getting the Model 3 production line going. They were operating out of a tent next to the plant at one point. Of course they have build quality problems. Musk's solution to Tesla being unable to make "Full Self Driving" work is to redefine "Full Self Driving" as a slightly better driver assistance system and blame regulators.[1] [1] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121787_tesla-full-self-driving-will-still-require-drivers-when-it-arrives-later-this-year https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121787_tesla-full-self...

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zwily 6y ago

Mostly agree with you, and I’m on my second Tesla too. Even on a bad day I’d much rather be driving my X than anything else.

api 6y ago

I still love and very much support what Elon is doing with SpaceX, but Tesla seems to be this weird company with one foot in amazing and another foot in disaster. It's like the worst best car company at the same time. I have heard many, many Tesla owners complain about build quality, but others say it's fine. It appears to be hit or miss, which is typical for a poorly optimized manufacturing process. Some cars come off the line in good shape and others have ridiculous problems or bad panel alignment, etc. Tesla's support is also apparently a fucking disaster, which is a common pattern with Silicon Valley companies... even large and cash-flush ones like Apple and Google. SV does not do support or customer service after the purchase. Elon's behavior on Twitter is nuts and makes me concerned about him. His COVID nonsense is the worst so far. Hopefully he holds it together long enough for Starship to be fully operational before he completely loses his mind.

nimbius 6y ago

If you think owning one is a nightmare, try working on them. I work on large truck engines for a living, but know a small shop about 35 miles down the road that claims to be an "authorized" Tesla service center...one of the few in the midwest. while other automotive manufacturers have robust supply chains and networks, tesla doesnt. most of your parts (bearings, panels, drivetrain) all come from California and only from the factory. It means they can save a ton of money by foregoing a traditional network but in return, repair shops are often on the hook for weeks or months of outstanding invoices waiting for parts, and have to gingerly explain to customers why their new model X will take 4 weeks to get the window fixed. This isnt to say Tesla uses a ton of custom parts! chargers and electronics are all rebranded (or stock) webasto. parts for the brakes are Ensco or industry-standard (mexican) forged parts. you can work on these yourself but god in heaven help you if Tesla finds out you didnt go through them. In some cases parts for the car are significantly better in the aftermarket. You can improve steering and handling significantly if you eschew Elons pet rebranded control arms. From what Ive heard, be very careful with the giant television in the center console. repair parts (if youre not from the golden coast) can take months, installation or replacement is a bear, and the controller for the unit has to be shipped back to Tesla before they will even send a new one.