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Police are requesting data from smart speakers
- chewmieser 6y agoMain story: https://www.wired.com/story/star-witness-your-smart-speaker/ https://www.wired.com/story/star-witness-your-smart-speaker/
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- arusahni 6y agoThis is a thin wrapper around a Wired article from two months ago [1]. The link should be updated to point to the original. Previously discussed on HN [2]. 1: https://www.wired.com/story/star-witness-your-smart-speaker/ https://www.wired.com/story/star-witness-your-smart-speaker/ 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24258078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24258078
- jawns 6y agoThanks for calling that out. The original Wired article is by Sidney Fussell. The Organic Prepper article is by Robert Wheeler -- but it goes well beyond what I would consider fair use and copies a good portion of the Wired article (24 paragraphs). I would guess Wired/Fussell would have a pretty good case for copyright infringement ... although assuming the Organic Prepper is a small fry, it's probably not worth pursuing beyond a DMCA notice.
- jaclaz 6y agoMoreover, content on that site is licensed as a "Creative Commons": https://www.theorganicprepper.com/about-daisy/ https://www.theorganicprepper.com/about-daisy/ >The information found on this website is protected by a Creative Commons copyright. That means that you are welcome to republish any content in part or in full in a digital format, but you must leave all links intact and provide full credit to the author with a link back to this website. On Wired: >The material on this site may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, cached or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of Condé Nast
- devwastaken 6y agoThis website is filled with ads and unusable for me.
- ColanR 6y agoUse uBlock Origin. No ads at all.
- tonyedgecombe 6y agoOr just hit the back button. The discussion here is probably more interesting anyway.
- tibbon 6y agoMakes me wonder why my electric company keeps offering me discounted smart speakers and devices... Surely disconnected right?
- wrkronmiller 6y agoThis article seems to pertain mainly to Echo. Does anyone know of the applicability of this to HomePod/Siri?
- jakemauer 6y agoAs far as I know recordings from Apple devices are anonymized. Also you can opt out of having them use recordings of your requests in their training data.
- christophilus 6y agoI don't have anything to hide, etc, etc. But I just don't see the value of smart speakers and the like, relative to the downsides. Honestly, how hard is it to just use your dumb bluetooth speakers?
- mLuby 6y agoIf you don't have anything to hide, would you publish your email/text/social media activity, browser history, bank statements, health records, and location history? Wanting privacy is not criminal, but spying on people often is.
- puranjay 6y agoThe market for smart speakers boggles my mind. Are people really willing to sacrifice their privacy for a minor upgrade in usability? Is it really that hard to just tap play on your smartphone instead of yelling out "Alexa play Despacito"?
- Semaphor 6y agoConsidering the speakers are dumb like pretty much all "smart" devices, I’d always avoid using the voice interface. When possible. It’s extremely convenient while, for example, cooking with no clean hands free.
- smichel17 6y agoI have a friend who owns an Alexa, and this is the one use case I agree is very nice. I would buy a non-networked device with only this functionality, or an app (with no network permission) that does the same.
- Semaphor 6y agoBecause I really started loving having a voice interface in a pinch (and because I want a less natural and more usable device), I started planning on building my own replacement with Rhasspy, but so far I haven’t gotten past the planning stages.
- tolbish 6y agoThose Alexa commercials make setting a timer look so fun.
- djsumdog 6y agoI had a roommate who I told, if he ever got an Amazon assistant, I'd smash it with a hammer. I don't get it either. There are open source alternatives if you want to setup your own assistant that doesn't transmit all your data back to Google/Amazon/Apple. The one caveat, I do know someone who is blind who uses the speech-to-text on her Google device a lot. She has all the fonts set to their maximum size, high contrast colors, and various other accessibility features enabled. Speach to text helps her greatly.
- znpy 6y agoRelevant meme: https://i.imgur.com/ZtacKhz_d.webp?maxwidth=728&fidelity=grand https://i.imgur.com/ZtacKhz_d.webp?maxwidth=728&fidelity=gra...
- antibland 6y ago"I don't care about online privacy because I have nothing to hide." This persona's ethos is finally starting to show visible cracks.
- humanistbot 6y agoI completely agree with your position, but putting that phrase in quotes as you did implies that it is a quote from the article. That phrase appears nowhere in the article, even though the sentiment is certainly there.
- fredley 6y agoI want a smart speaker in the kitchen, because for a few functions (timer, weight conversions and arithmetic) it's really useful, and hands-free which in that particular context is really important. I feel like I could build something that did this for me myself iff I could get the wake-word functionality. Does anyone know of any open-source wake-word detection that's feasible to run on a Pi?
- flattone 6y agoMycroft ?
- justinclift 6y agoApparently there are at least a few: https://openassistant.org https://openassistant.org And MyCroft, as another commenter has already mentioned: https://au.pcmag.com/gallery/64879/how-to-make-your-own-open-source-voice-assistant-with-raspberry-pi https://au.pcmag.com/gallery/64879/how-to-make-your-own-open... Haven't personally used any of them (this stuff isn't interesting to me).
- jcadam 6y agoYep, I have a few google minis (freebies, hmm...), I'm thinking about tossing them, honestly. Beyond asking about the weather or setting a kitchen timer they just aren't very useful. And I fully believe such devices are going to be used (if they aren't already) to identify persons engaging in "wrongthink" by listening in on the private conversations in peoples' homes.
- AftHurrahWinch 6y agoHave you taken any steps to disable the always-on microphone in your smartphone?
- sildur 6y agoCould you please provide a guide or directions on how to do it for a Samsung or an iPhone cellphone?
- bergstromm466 6y agoStep 1.) buy PinePhone.
- WiseWeasel 6y agoFor iPhone, go to Settings -> Siri & Search and ensure ‘Listen for “Hey Siri”’ is toggled off.
- r00fus 6y agoHell yes. No phones allowed in my house with Siri or Google always-on. No echo/googlehome/etc allowed. Of course you can't completely trust it. But make it hard for them.
- thisisnico 6y agoMy Amazon Alexa Listens to conversations to suggest items to purchase the next time I go on amazon. I hate this. Also I pretty much only use it to listen to the radio.
- whytaka 6y agoIn my network of friends and family, only 3 households have taken up using Google Home. I've asked what they use it for and they've all responded with, "I ask it to play jazz and tell me the weather." I brought up the concept of Big Brother and concerns about privacy. 2 of them responded with, "Well I've got nothing to hide." The holdout said, "yeah..." We tried asking Google Assistant an interesting question about the world and some rankings of countries. It disappointed. I've asked them all to turn off the device when I'm present.
- nobody9999 6y ago>I've asked them all to turn off the device when I'm present. You might want to try a variation on this[0] to make sure. Yes, it's obnoxious. But not nearly as obnoxious as exposing you to surveillance, IMHO. [0] https://xkcd.com/1807/ https://xkcd.com/1807/
- bryanlarsen 6y agoI understand the concern, but what makes a smart speaker any different from a smart phone? They also have a microphone that can eavesdrop on conversations, are harder to monitor for unexpected traffic and also provide location information. How many people that refuse to have a smart speaker also refuse to have a smart phone?
- yunohn 6y agoI think the difference is that speakers are meant to be always-listening. This is less possible on a phone where it would be detectable.
- crazygringo 6y agoPhones are equally always-listening. They respond to "Hey Siri" or "Hey Google". There is absolutely zero difference between a phone and a smart speaker in this regard. I don't know why you think anything would be more detectable on a phone.
- danShumway 6y agoThere's a ton of difference. My phone is not always listening -- its voice controls aren't enabled, and even if they were enabled they would be hidden behind a button press. Sure, somebody could hack my phone and take over the microphone, but that's a very different threat model than "this AI might misinterpret a random sound as a command and start uploading my conversations to the phone." To the extent that normal people leave their phones in always-listening mode, we should be educating them about the privacy implications of that as well.
- jaywalk 6y agoYou can mute the mic on a smart speaker too. Doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people have them always on, just as they do with their phones.
- 6y ago
- tensor 6y agoThere is nothing in this report that suggests this is anything more than the record of actual requests to the devices. So no, these devices are not "spying on you". When you send out a request to a 3rd party service, yeah, it's going to be subject to this sort of thing.
- danShumway 6y ago> So no, these devices are not "spying on you". - False positives for smart speakers aren't zero, the 3rd-party contractor controversies from a while back should have already killed this myth. - Most normal people probably aren't thinking about the implications of sending requests to 3rd parties when they set up these devices in their kid's rooms, and the marketing of the devices doesn't make any of that risk clear. - Most normal people outside of HN probably aren't even fully aware of the fact that their recordings are stored for this long. And even if it doesn't technically fall under the banner of "spying", it still has privacy implications, and we should be working to educate both technical and nontechnical people about what those privacy implications are; otherwise they won't be able to make informed choices about what level of risk they feel comfortable taking on. Nontechnical people do not have the instincts or training to think about how device information can be stored, who can recover it, and how that information can be chained together and used against them. It is unambiguously good for publications like Wired to educate them about those risks.
- danso 6y agoYeah this doesn't seem significantly different than what police can already request of your Internet traffic and search history. It's obviously a privacy issue, but not one of an increased scale...in the way that say, having the devices be switched to always-on-always-transmitting would be, e.g. akin to the FBI breaking into Tony Soprano's basement and planting a wire in his lamp, but being able to do it remotely.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y agoIt is absolutely not unexpected. Any vestiges of privacy are being eroded. Not that recently, inside of the car was relatively safe from eavesdropping. Cell phones and Alexa devices changed all that. What I do find odd, however, is the weird distribution of those devices. In my immediate social circle, its either old people who want to show they have something cool and hip and young tech enthusiasts. My sample may be completele skewed as I am not the most social person ever though. The trend may be much more pronounced. Still, it boggles my mind. Why would you voluntarily do it? My parents only invited trusted friends to ensure nothing 'questionable' made it to the authorities ( former soviet republic ). People today brazenly broadcast it. I honestly do not get it.
- eternalban 6y agoAfter years of listening to ex-soviets speaking nostalgically about how things were better under the Soviets, the people in the West have unconsciously fallen for the full spectrum mommy state and our overlords are merely addressing this unspoken popular demand to live in a surveillance state. This state of affair naturally reflects the West's advancement relative to other parts of the globe. So "resistance is futile but if you join early you can have a short id!". So don't lose your place in the line bothering yourself over triffles such as overwhelming asymmetries of your social existence. The future is now comrade, buck it up [bsts: /s]
- daveFNbuck 6y agoThe speakers are convenient and most people aren't worried about these kinds of invasions of privacy.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y agoI know your statement is accurate, but my immediate question is that of why. The information is there. If it is there, it is going to be used. Why wouldn't an average person be worried? Because it did not affect them yet? It is not part of the culture?
- vkou 6y ago
- aphextron 6y agoIn the context of legal system like we have in the US, where police are required to obtain a warrant and provide sufficient evidence to a court, I see no problem with this. We've been doing it with cell phone data for decades now. I'm all for data privacy, but in the event of a crime being committed we need to allow every tool available to find the truth. This can exonerate innocent people just as easily as it can convict.
- 8fingerlouie 6y agoThere is a very big difference between what I may say over the phone and what I might say in my home. When on the phone everything I say is with the knowledge that someone (the receiver) is listening. In my home I make no such assumptions. Furthermore, who will be making sure whatever conservation has been overheard is simply not a tv show, radio broadcast, or even the neighbor having an argument in their garden ? While various governments have been busy assuring us that they’ve always had this possibility, they’re lying. They’ve had the possibility to do surveillance, but never retroactive. The ability to sift through not only what you’re going to say, but also what you’ve said in the past X months before you became a suspect is quite new. Anything you say can and will be used against you, possibly in a court of law...
- gruez 6y ago>When on the phone everything I say is with the knowledge that someone (the receiver) is listening. In my home I make no such assumptions. I don't see how this point is relevant when the police can bug your house with a warrant.
- comedowntous 6y agoAs already explained, there is still an important distinction. One would first have to be the subject of some kind of criminal investigation, and then your house could be bugged from that point in time. When data is requested from a device like a smart speaker, suddenly everything that has been said, even before a potential investigation, would be accessible.
- 6y ago
- Kim_Bruning 6y agoPeople already pay for Telescreens in their houses. Smart speakers almost seem like a downgrade from that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen
- afrojack123 6y agoIts important to realize that all technology runs on code that is not visible to the user. For example, clicking a button may not do what the button says. Pressing the Off button only turns off the light, but not the device. Maybe device goes into a low-power minimum functionality state. Don't listen to big tech that is trying to talk you into paying for hardware they use to spy on you.
- michaelmrose 6y agoEven if they don't by default record everything they could trivially be told to and our lovely government or any arm thereof could order the oem to update to a firmware that enabled cop mode. Our nation is working hard to pass legislation that would make such orders legal right now.
- nosmokewhereiam 6y agoYou have got to expand on that last line, it's very interesting. It sounds like something we should be thanking you for.
- s5300 6y agoPretty sure the EARNIT act is a major one. Could be mistaken though.
- firefoxd 6y agoWe will see the same social cooling effect[1] with smart devices. We will only listen to the right thing on smart speakers, watch the right thing on smart TVs, smoke the right thing on smart cigs, and of course, drink the right coffee on our smart coffee maker. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24627363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24627363
- trident1000 6y agoWhy anyone would put a smart speaker in their home is beyond me.
- animationwill 6y agoI have many reasons why I put them all over my house. What would you like to know that's not already been discussed many times here?
- trident1000 6y agoDo you not feel violated knowing that every word you say is/can be recorded by big tech companies? Even if you turn permissions off theres always that "whoops it was a glitch" moment that inevitably comes down the line.
- 8bitsrule 6y agoOrwellian doublespeak. If they have microphones in them, they're not "speakers'. Customers are paying for the privilege of a 24/7 wiretap, which isn't 'smart'.
- awhitby 6y agoSpecific Orwell reference: "He thought of the telescreen with its never-sleeping ear." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen
- dehrmann 6y agoThe only interesting thing here is recorded conversations. Searches and food orders are already easily tracked and subpoenaed.
- kps 6y ago> Consider a potential suspect who can’t prove where they were at 11 pm on a Thursday, because they live alone. Something as simple as ordering pizza through a speaker would show the time and location of the request and, if voice recognition is enabled, who made the request. “It might be benign information that someone was ordering a pizza, but it might also be an alibi for somebody,” Orr says. Got it — have a timed recording of my voice order a pizza while I'm out kicking puppies.
- nkrisc 6y agoSame idea prominently featured in Ferris Bueller's Day Off in 1986. Audio recording as an alibi. I'm sure there are earlier examples. Only he wasn't kicking puppies.
- edoceo 6y agoA couple of Colombo episodes too
- benhurmarcel 6y agoSomething similar is in Agatha Christie's Murder of Roger Ackroyd.
- colejohnson66 6y agoThe receipt from the pizza store doesn’t work?
- nshm 6y agoTime to invest into open source smart devices which work fully offline. We have Vosk for offline speech recognition, there is TensorflowTTS with very good synthesis quality even on mobile phones. NLU and dialog management is also not a big problem. Interesting if there are projects to create a local internet snapshot to cache/hide search queries effectively.
- t-writescode 6y agoI believe Home Assist has some options?
- gambler 6y ago>Forensic experts tell WIRED that information from the devices is valued because it can offer a timeline of a person’s activities, their location, if they’re alone, and can verify statements made during questioning. I am sure police will be eager to use this sort of data as exculpating evidence. I mean, they don't have a history of doing this with normal evidence, but when we hand them more data (knowing data = power) I am sure they will start operating in a totally different fashion. I believe in our institutions. Ordering smart speakers for all my rooms, Nest and Ring.
- gruez 6y ago/s ?
- repeek 6y agoStep 1: Record yourself giving your smart devices commands. Step 2: Schedule playback while out committing crimes. Instant alibi!
- goldenManatee 6y agoIt is not the job of any executive branch organization to proactively need this data, nor even to have the gall to submit such a request. The argument of serving as alibis is so laughable; like, how ever did governments survive this long without smart speakers listening in to citizens in the Roman Empire, or in 18th century France, or to America’s rebellious, tax-evading Founding Fathers. Guess the authorities of those people’s times should have stopped the “rebels”? It seems producing smart speaker alibis is really the only way any future government could survive given our IG/TikTok addicted population is so smart? Not to mention that governments are fundamentally just ideas of people coming to temporarily to work together, that come and go.
- poxwole 6y agoTotally unsurprising. I mean you basically have a always online bug that you don't control.
- Jonnax 6y agoI really wish there was a way to jailbreak these devices. Like the nest hub has a nice screen. All I really want is the weather and when the next train comes.
- hiidrew 6y agoI imagine this will happen to self driving cars if they become the norm. E.g. a crime happens nearby and all the self driving cars in the area get subpoenaed for their camera footage. Definitely a bit dystopian in the sense of surveillance all around us.
- jdofaz 6y agoI was gifted an Alexa, I set up a few routines to announce the time and temp and occasionally I use it for Pandora. I leave the microphone disabled unless I momentarily want to give it a command. Based on take aparts done by other people I'm reasonably confident it is really disabled.
- snowwrestler 6y agoIs there any reason to believe that privacy concerns about smart speakers do not also apply to smart phones that are configured with a wake word? "OK Google" seems to work the same way on a speaker and a phone. I have my iPhone set so that it takes a button press to trigger Siri, for this reason.
- atoav 6y agoIf there is data, there will be someone who requests it. If you are lucky they have good intentions and act on a solid constitutional base with good oversight and abuse prevention. Planning for being lucky is however a bit naive, which is why not spring certain data in the first place could be the more civilized decision.