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This reminds me of a trend I've seen in home appliances in recent years. Appliances that have "energy saving" features that save energy by not actually doing th

This reminds me of a trend I've seen in home appliances in recent years. Appliances that have "energy saving" features that save energy by not actually doing their job. For example, we had a window air conditioning unit in our previous house that had an efficiency feature. Instead of recirculating the air, it would cool to the temperature you asked for, then set itself a few degrees higher. So it cooled down to the right temperature, and then just changed the temperature so it wouldn't remain as cool as you wanted. THat's not more efficient — that's just not doing its damn job. Likewise, our dryer has settings that amount to "almost dry," "not actually dry," and "can't even tell you put it in the dryer." Who are these settings for? When I dry my clothes, I need them to be completely dry every time. I can't hang a shirt that's still damp in the closet or it will get all musty. WTF?

xyzzyz 6y ago
> Who are these settings for? These are actually useful if you're ironing your clothes, which, admittedly, is not very popular these days. But yes, there should be "completely dry" option too.
ahi 6y ago
Dishwashers are my pet peeve. Visiting family, they all have these dish rinsers that can't actually clean dirty dishes so we hand wash everything then put them in? I have a dishwasher from the 80s that actually washes dishes. I don't think I will replace it when it dies with a new one. Granted, it may never die since they used to make them last too.
- gwbas1c 6y ago
  It's that there's a lot of variation in dishwasher quality. I used to live in an apartment with a landlord-installed $200 cheapie dishwashers that never worked. Then I moved to an apartment without a dishwasher, so I bought a $500 one that I could plug into the sink. Worked much better. After that apartment, I moved into one that had the same dishwasher that I bought, but installed. Worked great! Then I moved into another apartment with a cheapie dishwasher that was so loud I'd only run it when I left. Anyway, the lesson is that you need to be a savvy consumer... And skip the cheapest models!
  - sjg007 6y ago
    The expensive ones don't work that well either. My kitchenaid cost $1k and it sucks. Maybe a Miele or Bosch will work better.. they are more but honestly I just want one that cleans reliably. New toilets are awful.. just terrible.
    - heelix 6y ago
      Just purchased a 30 year old house... with older plumbing. Ugly color, but compared to the newer ones we put into our former house - they work incredibly well when sinking the Bismarck.
    - reissbaker 6y ago
      My relatively new Bosch (about 2.5 years old) cleans better than any dishwasher I can remember having. And it's near-silent, too. New models can be good!
      - sjg007 6y ago
        Yeah I think Bosch is the better choice. What model?
        jarito 6y ago
        I got the 500 version based on this article from Wirecutter. Works well, but does require that we leave the door open for a while to let the plastic dry. Silent though. Most of the time, I can only tell it is running by the light on the ground. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...
        scruple 6y ago
        I _just_ ordered a Bosch 500 series because my (barely 4 year old) GE model died over the weekend. I was told by a friend who owns the same Bosch model that they go through a lot of Jet Dry, though... But if it actually cleans well and doesn't break in a few years I'll be happy.
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  Are you in the USA? Here in the UK I don't think I have ever seen a dish rinser! We have dishwashers aplenty. The one issue is that if you think the dishwasher is a food disposal unit, you'll likely clog it up. Some people put dishes in with lumps of food on them, or don't put salt in the dishwasher (depends on the tablets you use) and the lifespan of the dishwasher will be impacted. When my old one failed to drain and filled up, I was amazed at how much water came out of it when I shimmy'd it to the back door and released the kraken over the back garden. It was like a tsunami.
  - reissbaker 6y ago
    I think "dish rinser" was meant as a put-down for "bad dishwasher" — I live in the US and I haven't heard of "dish rinsers" either.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Commercial dishwashers are better described are just sterilizers and would be called dish risers if you don't put clean dishes in. They work fast to get dishes ready for safe reuse.
- megablast 6y ago
  Anyone who cares about the environment does not use a dishwasher.
  - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
    I'd need to see some estimates for handwashing, but it looks like a modern dishwasher uses 4-6gal (15-23l) of water[1]. That's about 1/10th of a bath (sure, if you're conserving water and energy you take showers instead, so it's about 1/3 of a shower). 1: https://www.consumerreports.org/dishwashers/energy-efficient-dishwashers-that-clean-well-save-money/ https://www.consumerreports.org/dishwashers/energy-efficient...
    - martyvis 6y ago
      It's not just the power and water use, but the quite harsh and caustic nature of the dishwasher detergent that is a concern in some areas
    - shard 6y ago
      I would imagine dishwashing water use varies a lot depending on habits. I have refined my dishwashing over the years to this procedure: 0. use aerating faucet head to increase spread of water. 1. Short splash of cold water to remove stuck-on food, letting it sit if needed. 2. Wash with detergent on wet sponge, no added water. 3. Rinse with cold water, low water volume, with stacked dishes below faucet so that water from the rinse is rinsing dishes below as well. I've never measured how much water is used, but I would think that it's fairly competitive against a dishwasher.
      - koyote 6y ago
        The Miele dishwasher I used to have in my old flat used around 7 litres per wash. My current, not quite as fancy one, uses around 9 litres. That's like just over a minute of the tap being on full blast for an aerated tap. I am sure you could compete with that if you really tried, but from what I've seen a lot of people simply leave the tap on for the majority of the time they are washing the dishes.
pbreit 6y ago
As usual, Trump is at the forefront & getting ridiculed: "Trump Vs. Toilets (And Showers, Dishwashers And Lightbulbs)" https://www.npr.org/2019/12/27/791707318/trump-vs-toilets-and-showers-dishwashers-and-light-bulbs https://www.npr.org/2019/12/27/791707318/trump-vs-toilets-an...
tdrp 6y ago
Or the home thermostat that sets itself to "away" mode because you've gone all of 30 minutes without walking in front of it.
Igelau 6y ago
The sensor dry on ours is a joke. Thankfully I have options to set the time and temp manually.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  I haven't seen any machine where the sensor dry worked.
  - m463 6y ago
    On the other hand, I've had a dryer that didn't have a sensor and the timed dry was hard to get right. You could destroy clothes because they would go past dry to 400 degree annihilate. What you really want is "sensor dry + 10 minutes" or some other offset. we really need open appliances (with some safety features)
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    When I bought my house it came with a dryer and indeed the sensory dry never seemed to work. A year later, I decided to look into it. It occurred to me that there should be an exhaust somewhere on the exterior of the house where the dryer is blowing air out of. I went looking for it, and couldn't find it! This was crazy. After a lot of searching, I finally found it - the previous owner(s) had blocked the vents - they were covered. I removed the block, and air could flow freely again. And suddenly the sensor dry worked perfectly. If yours is not working, do some debugging.
    - thewebcount 6y ago
      Woah! That sounds really dangerous! I've had to get properly ventilated dryer vents cleaned out a few times. I've been told they can cause fires if they get too clogged.
- alliao 6y ago
  I have a bosch one and yeah when it stops most clothes are damp feeling. If you trust it and hang it up it's actually quite ok. I just set it to go for 90mins and everything's dry. I do really like it though, the filters are so good I mix all my clothes in one wash and i don't see any lint.
jiggawatts 6y ago
When the measure becomes the goal, it ceases to be a good measure. The energy saving has become goal, not an efficient outcome. Dryers can absolutely be made to be more energy efficient! They just need to use reverse-cycle airconditioners to efficiently heat the air and dehumidify it instead of simply using a resistive heater. These are much more complex to make and are expensive. Blowing lots of cool air through clothes will also dry them eventually, which is cheap and "energy efficient". Of course, this doesn't work well in humid climates and damages clothes. It's probably overall a net loss for the environment, as making new clothes takes a lot more resources than drying them.
- dreamcompiler 6y ago
  > They just need to use reverse-cycle airconditioners to efficiently heat the air and dehumidify it instead of simply using a resistive heater. These are much more complex to make and are expensive. I've seen these in apartments in Europe; I presume this is because it's a PITA to route a dryer exhaust vent to the outside in a 400-year-old building with 2-foot thick stone walls. Such dryers work well; you just have to dump the accumulated water out of them every so often. But I've never seen one for sale in the US.
  - 72deluxe 6y ago
    Even more impressive are the combination washing machine and drier machines that dry and then drain the accumulated water via the washing machine plumbing without you having to ever empty it. At least that's what I think my Hotpoint does.... it does get mighty hot and release a rubbery sort of smell when it's drying; my wife can't smell it but to me it stinks. Clever equipment though.
  - joezydeco 6y ago
    Search on “condensing” or “ventless” dryers. https://www.abt.com/product/140010/Bosch-24-800-Series-White-Compact-Condensation-Electric-Dryer-WTG865H3UC.html https://www.abt.com/product/140010/Bosch-24-800-Series-White...
  - sxates 6y ago
_ph_ 6y ago
If you can hang your clothing in a somewhat ventilated space, it is usually nicer to not completely dry your clothing, but hang it up slightly damp. This saves not only some energy, but gives you less wrinkles. Also, if you want to iron something, it better be not completly dry or you have to wet it a little bit for ironing.
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  These are good tips but are likely dependent on the humidity of where you live. Here in the UK, since the air can be so damp, it's difficult to dry clothes without leaving it in direct sunlight for the 3-4 days per year that we get it, particularly the further north you go...
  - mr_toad 6y ago
    If the air inside is cold and humid you may want a dehumidifier, it will save heating costs and reduce mold and mildew.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Here in Germany it can be quite wet too, but in a heated room, even clothes directly out of the washer, without running the dryer, would dry over night. But yes, hanging up damp clothing assumes it would dry reasonably quick :)
smilekzs 6y ago
Same thing with the "leaf" icon on the Nest thermostats, although I do like the occupancy detection shut-off feature.
- sjg007 6y ago
  I had to turn all the fancy features off and just use it for the app.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
This gives me a great idea for an energy-saving air conditioner. It's just a white noise generator chip, a power amp, and a speaker. It'll be super lightweight to boot!
- m463 6y ago
  Don't make it super lightweight - people won't think they're getting a good value if they buy it. I know this because long ago when we retired our old cheapie house phone, I took it apart and it had two lead weights in the base and handset. To have a similar "heft" compared to the old "ma bell" phones - which are made of actual durable materials - they removed lightness.
  - paulmooreparks 6y ago
    There's a practical reason for this. If you're accustomed to quickly lifting a hefty handset to your ear, then the first time you lift one that's significantly lighter you might bash yourself in the temple with the handset.
    - m463 6y ago
      But because of the flimsiness and light weight, little energy would be imparted! :)
    - aaronmdjones 6y ago
      There's an episode of The Office (US) that features a prank based on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfGN7bfohms&t=13m51s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfGN7bfohms&t=13m51s
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Many old Bell-provided phone models also had metal weights inside.
  - colanderman 6y ago
    (Assuming you are talking about a corded desk phone.) This is not the reason for the weights. Remove them from the base, and the phone ceases to stay put when you pick up the receiver (which is attached by a springy cord). Remove them from the receiver, and it is not heavy enough to keep the buttons on the hook depressed when hung up. (Source: I did exactly this in college, with exactly these results.)
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
The EU actually attempted to do the right thing when regulating dishwashers, and it actually made rules that it has to not just be efficient, but also get the dishes to a certain cleanliness standard. Either their standard was too lenient or their testing procedure unrealistic though, because my dishwasher has the "EU mode" (which has to be selected by default by law), and then 4 other modes that will actually clean the dishes. I'm surprised that the manufacturers didn't label the EU mode as such to make clear to customers who they have to thank for that. Such experiences sour consumers for future eco initiatives (compare e.g. early CFLs and LEDs leading to people hoarding incandescent bulbs and refusing to touch the technology to this day). Vacuum cleaners are the EU's most recent victim.
- xienze 6y ago
  > Either their standard was too lenient or their testing procedure unrealistic though, because my dishwasher has the "EU mode" (which has to be selected by default by law), and then 4 other modes that will actually clean the dishes. In the US these newish dishwashers drive me crazy. They don’t have a heating element on the bottom (efficient!) and anything plastic is absolutely dripping wet, even after it’s been drying overnight (or rather, actively drying for a couple hours and then just sitting there). You’re supposed to top them up CONSTANTLY with Jet Dry (drying agent), but it barely does anything. Parent was spot on in describing the efficiency gains as being a result of not doing the damn job.
  - burnte 6y ago
    > You’re supposed to top them up CONSTANTLY with Jet Dry THANK YOU, I had no idea why my dish washer seems to go through jetdry like it was water!
    - gambiting 6y ago
      What's jet dry? Literally never heard about the term.
      - 6y ago
m463 6y ago
I've talk to people who said sometimes the benchmarks/tests are the problem. For example, I recall there was some computer EPA energy saver test - you ran the test and compared energy used to energy used at idle. Thing is the computer was so efficient that running the test was done mostly in hardware and took very little energy. So the ratio of benchmark energy to idle energy was pretty much 1:1.
hnick 6y ago
We got new toilets at home last year. Without fail, I have to full flush at least twice for solids. They simply aren't strong enough to do the job in one go like the old ones were. Such a waste of water.
- mjevans 6y ago
  That's exactly what I've said and done for years. I now even double-flush old toilets out of habit. The older style toilets I remember as a kid just worked. One flush would properly and fully clear out anything that didn't clog the darned thing. The new toilets barely flush properly with two flushes, and I still wonder how much is left behind in the backwash.
  - constantine42 6y ago
    I had the opposite experience. Old huge tank toilets got clogged and the new high efficiency ones don't.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Quality matters. Cheap toilets don't do the job, but I spent a little extra for the best flush model and it flushes better than our old toilets.
- colanderman 6y ago
  Exact opposite experience for me. The traditional toilets in my childhood home (mid-90s) were (still are) slow, took several flushes for solids, and clogged constantly. The modern low-flow toilet in my current home flushes quickly, never needs more than one flush and never clogs. Anecdata is anecdata. It's most likely that some toilets are just bad and some are good, regardless of flow amount.
  - hnick 6y ago
    Yeah I think we picked poorly (the plumber recommended this one). Maybe there's a valve we can tweak a bit somewhere, I should look into it.
nullc 6y ago
> For example, we had a window air conditioning unit in our previous house that had an efficiency feature. Instead of recirculating the air, it would cool to the temperature you asked for, then set itself a few degrees higher. Because of humidity that actually might be the right behaviour in some cases-- drop the temp lower then let it go back up a bit to lower the humidity level... but not in others. :)
senectus1 6y ago
Yeah we noticed an interesting change in the hybrid Toyota's. I've had two in my life so far, the Prius and the hybrid Camry. In both of those, the display that shows the battery charge can go from no bars to full bars. In the NEW versions of the hybrids, they never go to no bars or full bars, and a toyota rep told us they made that software change because new owners were ringing up and asking if they need to do something to stop the car over charging (because it was showing full bars). This sort of "presumptive tail wagging the dog" bullshit needs to stop. Manufacturers need to show us real data not the Fischer Price data.
- mjevans 6y ago
  Yes real data, but also real controls. Day to day it should do a partial charge, like 90-95% of most cells. There should also be a 'road trip' or similar charge mode that intentionally goes to 100% full charge on everything in concurrence with planning to actually drive for a long distance that might need the full capacity. It should be made more clear that this road trip mode spends battery life.
  - senectus1 6y ago
    I mean.. in a hybrid I dont care. I want the car to control it, but I want to know that it's being controlled. If the car fuel economy is getting worse I will use the data feedback to collate anecdotal evidence to deliver to my mechanic. I might pay a visit to my mechanic sooner if I see strange behavior. I t might save me money, it might save a life.... but with a fake ass dashboard feeding me bullshit readings It's not in the slightest bit useful.
brokenmachine 6y ago
Like anything, you get what you measure. If you're only measuring energy usage, then actually doing the job is irrelevant.
lazyasciiart 6y ago
It is much more efficient for the air conditioner to allow a gap between the target temperature and the trigger temperature. Without that, it just has to run constantly to make sure that it isn't 0.01 degrees warmer than requested. And that may be what you want it to do, but it's an incredibly pointless waste of energy.
- userbinator 6y ago
  It could cool slightly beyond the set temperature, just like heating usually goes slightly hotter than thermostat setting.
flavius29663 6y ago
or the vacuum cleaners in the EU...limited to 800 watts, so now I have to spend 2-3 the time it used to take, when a single pass was enough. Why not just allow me to buy a 2-3000W machine and do a single pass? Better for the environment and better for my time
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  Higher power consumption does not necessarily imply higher suction. Cheap brands did just decrease the motor power and their vacuum cleaners are terrible as a result. Higher-quality brands like Miele still suck as good as ever, they just use less power thanks to improved designs.
ChuckMcM 6y ago
This is a common misunderstanding of dual flush toilets. I don't know if you missed it, but the article was concerned with them leaking as opposed to their designed operation, which in fact does save water. They "work" because the most common form of evacuation for humans is urination. And that is easily cleared with a lower volume of water. The math is that even if you have to flush three times after you poop to get everything gone, you've saved water because most of the time you only peed and that took less water than it did before. The math checks out. That said, washing is a different story. That is because washing is a chemical process, not a mechanical one. Regulation has simultaneously cut phosphates[1] (EDIT: per wikipedia the phosphates chelates the water which allows the detergent to be more effective) and reduced water (which is required for chemical action) and as a result the effectiveness of washing units (dishwashers and clothes washers) has in some cases stopped being effective. Regulation itself has become less effective (in my opinion) because it continues to attack the symptom and not the problem. For example, it would have been just as effective to upgrade waste water treatment plants to remove all phosphates rather than ban them from detergents, however that solution creates a tax burden which can be resisted by a population whereas restricting the sale of products the consumer wants cannot be countered by the consumers directly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphates_in_detergent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphates_in_detergent
- ggcdn 6y ago
  Good points, it makes you wonder how many day to day things could have vastly improved user experience if government efforts were targeted at underlying problems instead of symptoms (borrowing your definitions of those two things). But plastics recycling comes to mind as a bit of a counter example, where all the effort has been put on dealing with the end problem, when perhaps they should be targeting the symptom (regulating unnecessary plastics and packaging, and taxing the producers instead of the consumers). Currently plastic producers have incentive to generate more plastics, and consumers are left trying to deal with the waste.
  - ChuckMcM 6y ago
    Absolutely agree. If the actual cost to use plastic packaging was related to the externalized costs of plastic disposal it would immediately cause change and innovation in packaging.
jojobas 6y ago
Then there are efficiency ratings for electric heaters. Unless it's a radiant heater by the window, it gives exactly as much energy as it consumes. An "energy efficient" heater is a useless one.
smichel17 6y ago
I wonder about this with dishwashers. Mine, in the manual, recommends running the hot water in the sink to pre-heat the water in the pipes "for best results." How much worse would its energy & water efficiency ratings be if that were included?
pfranz 6y ago
The last two dryers I had ignored what you set and used their "dryness detection." It works ok for most things, but larger things like towels and sheets are still damp. Run the dryer a second time and it auto shuts off within literally a few minutes. Now the towels are mildewy I haven't found a lot of options.

xyzzyz 6y ago

> Who are these settings for? These are actually useful if you're ironing your clothes, which, admittedly, is not very popular these days. But yes, there should be "completely dry" option too.

ahi 6y ago

Dishwashers are my pet peeve. Visiting family, they all have these dish rinsers that can't actually clean dirty dishes so we hand wash everything then put them in? I have a dishwasher from the 80s that actually washes dishes. I don't think I will replace it when it dies with a new one. Granted, it may never die since they used to make them last too.

gwbas1c 6y ago
It's that there's a lot of variation in dishwasher quality. I used to live in an apartment with a landlord-installed $200 cheapie dishwashers that never worked. Then I moved to an apartment without a dishwasher, so I bought a $500 one that I could plug into the sink. Worked much better. After that apartment, I moved into one that had the same dishwasher that I bought, but installed. Worked great! Then I moved into another apartment with a cheapie dishwasher that was so loud I'd only run it when I left. Anyway, the lesson is that you need to be a savvy consumer... And skip the cheapest models!
- sjg007 6y ago
  The expensive ones don't work that well either. My kitchenaid cost $1k and it sucks. Maybe a Miele or Bosch will work better.. they are more but honestly I just want one that cleans reliably. New toilets are awful.. just terrible.
  - heelix 6y ago
    Just purchased a 30 year old house... with older plumbing. Ugly color, but compared to the newer ones we put into our former house - they work incredibly well when sinking the Bismarck.
  - reissbaker 6y ago
    My relatively new Bosch (about 2.5 years old) cleans better than any dishwasher I can remember having. And it's near-silent, too. New models can be good!
    - sjg007 6y ago
      Yeah I think Bosch is the better choice. What model?
      - jarito 6y ago
        I got the 500 version based on this article from Wirecutter. Works well, but does require that we leave the door open for a while to let the plastic dry. Silent though. Most of the time, I can only tell it is running by the light on the ground. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...
        scruple 6y ago
        I _just_ ordered a Bosch 500 series because my (barely 4 year old) GE model died over the weekend. I was told by a friend who owns the same Bosch model that they go through a lot of Jet Dry, though... But if it actually cleans well and doesn't break in a few years I'll be happy.
72deluxe 6y ago
Are you in the USA? Here in the UK I don't think I have ever seen a dish rinser! We have dishwashers aplenty. The one issue is that if you think the dishwasher is a food disposal unit, you'll likely clog it up. Some people put dishes in with lumps of food on them, or don't put salt in the dishwasher (depends on the tablets you use) and the lifespan of the dishwasher will be impacted. When my old one failed to drain and filled up, I was amazed at how much water came out of it when I shimmy'd it to the back door and released the kraken over the back garden. It was like a tsunami.
- reissbaker 6y ago
  I think "dish rinser" was meant as a put-down for "bad dishwasher" — I live in the US and I haven't heard of "dish rinsers" either.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Commercial dishwashers are better described are just sterilizers and would be called dish risers if you don't put clean dishes in. They work fast to get dishes ready for safe reuse.
megablast 6y ago
Anyone who cares about the environment does not use a dishwasher.
- blacksmith_tb 6y ago
  I'd need to see some estimates for handwashing, but it looks like a modern dishwasher uses 4-6gal (15-23l) of water[1]. That's about 1/10th of a bath (sure, if you're conserving water and energy you take showers instead, so it's about 1/3 of a shower). 1: https://www.consumerreports.org/dishwashers/energy-efficient-dishwashers-that-clean-well-save-money/ https://www.consumerreports.org/dishwashers/energy-efficient...
  - martyvis 6y ago
    It's not just the power and water use, but the quite harsh and caustic nature of the dishwasher detergent that is a concern in some areas
  - shard 6y ago
    I would imagine dishwashing water use varies a lot depending on habits. I have refined my dishwashing over the years to this procedure: 0. use aerating faucet head to increase spread of water. 1. Short splash of cold water to remove stuck-on food, letting it sit if needed. 2. Wash with detergent on wet sponge, no added water. 3. Rinse with cold water, low water volume, with stacked dishes below faucet so that water from the rinse is rinsing dishes below as well. I've never measured how much water is used, but I would think that it's fairly competitive against a dishwasher.
    - koyote 6y ago
      The Miele dishwasher I used to have in my old flat used around 7 litres per wash. My current, not quite as fancy one, uses around 9 litres. That's like just over a minute of the tap being on full blast for an aerated tap. I am sure you could compete with that if you really tried, but from what I've seen a lot of people simply leave the tap on for the majority of the time they are washing the dishes.

pbreit 6y ago

As usual, Trump is at the forefront & getting ridiculed: "Trump Vs. Toilets (And Showers, Dishwashers And Lightbulbs)" https://www.npr.org/2019/12/27/791707318/trump-vs-toilets-and-showers-dishwashers-and-light-bulbs https://www.npr.org/2019/12/27/791707318/trump-vs-toilets-an...

tdrp 6y ago

Or the home thermostat that sets itself to "away" mode because you've gone all of 30 minutes without walking in front of it.

Igelau 6y ago

The sensor dry on ours is a joke. Thankfully I have options to set the time and temp manually.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
I haven't seen any machine where the sensor dry worked.
- m463 6y ago
  On the other hand, I've had a dryer that didn't have a sensor and the timed dry was hard to get right. You could destroy clothes because they would go past dry to 400 degree annihilate. What you really want is "sensor dry + 10 minutes" or some other offset. we really need open appliances (with some safety features)
- BeetleB 6y ago
  When I bought my house it came with a dryer and indeed the sensory dry never seemed to work. A year later, I decided to look into it. It occurred to me that there should be an exhaust somewhere on the exterior of the house where the dryer is blowing air out of. I went looking for it, and couldn't find it! This was crazy. After a lot of searching, I finally found it - the previous owner(s) had blocked the vents - they were covered. I removed the block, and air could flow freely again. And suddenly the sensor dry worked perfectly. If yours is not working, do some debugging.
  - thewebcount 6y ago
    Woah! That sounds really dangerous! I've had to get properly ventilated dryer vents cleaned out a few times. I've been told they can cause fires if they get too clogged.
alliao 6y ago
I have a bosch one and yeah when it stops most clothes are damp feeling. If you trust it and hang it up it's actually quite ok. I just set it to go for 90mins and everything's dry. I do really like it though, the filters are so good I mix all my clothes in one wash and i don't see any lint.

jiggawatts 6y ago

When the measure becomes the goal, it ceases to be a good measure. The energy saving has become goal, not an efficient outcome. Dryers can absolutely be made to be more energy efficient! They just need to use reverse-cycle airconditioners to efficiently heat the air and dehumidify it instead of simply using a resistive heater. These are much more complex to make and are expensive. Blowing lots of cool air through clothes will also dry them eventually, which is cheap and "energy efficient". Of course, this doesn't work well in humid climates and damages clothes. It's probably overall a net loss for the environment, as making new clothes takes a lot more resources than drying them.

dreamcompiler 6y ago
> They just need to use reverse-cycle airconditioners to efficiently heat the air and dehumidify it instead of simply using a resistive heater. These are much more complex to make and are expensive. I've seen these in apartments in Europe; I presume this is because it's a PITA to route a dryer exhaust vent to the outside in a 400-year-old building with 2-foot thick stone walls. Such dryers work well; you just have to dump the accumulated water out of them every so often. But I've never seen one for sale in the US.
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  Even more impressive are the combination washing machine and drier machines that dry and then drain the accumulated water via the washing machine plumbing without you having to ever empty it. At least that's what I think my Hotpoint does.... it does get mighty hot and release a rubbery sort of smell when it's drying; my wife can't smell it but to me it stinks. Clever equipment though.
- joezydeco 6y ago
  Search on “condensing” or “ventless” dryers. https://www.abt.com/product/140010/Bosch-24-800-Series-White-Compact-Condensation-Electric-Dryer-WTG865H3UC.html https://www.abt.com/product/140010/Bosch-24-800-Series-White...
- sxates 6y ago

_ph_ 6y ago

If you can hang your clothing in a somewhat ventilated space, it is usually nicer to not completely dry your clothing, but hang it up slightly damp. This saves not only some energy, but gives you less wrinkles. Also, if you want to iron something, it better be not completly dry or you have to wet it a little bit for ironing.

72deluxe 6y ago
These are good tips but are likely dependent on the humidity of where you live. Here in the UK, since the air can be so damp, it's difficult to dry clothes without leaving it in direct sunlight for the 3-4 days per year that we get it, particularly the further north you go...
- mr_toad 6y ago
  If the air inside is cold and humid you may want a dehumidifier, it will save heating costs and reduce mold and mildew.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Here in Germany it can be quite wet too, but in a heated room, even clothes directly out of the washer, without running the dryer, would dry over night. But yes, hanging up damp clothing assumes it would dry reasonably quick :)

smilekzs 6y ago

Same thing with the "leaf" icon on the Nest thermostats, although I do like the occupancy detection shut-off feature.

sjg007 6y ago
I had to turn all the fancy features off and just use it for the app.

dreamcompiler 6y ago

This gives me a great idea for an energy-saving air conditioner. It's just a white noise generator chip, a power amp, and a speaker. It'll be super lightweight to boot!

m463 6y ago
Don't make it super lightweight - people won't think they're getting a good value if they buy it. I know this because long ago when we retired our old cheapie house phone, I took it apart and it had two lead weights in the base and handset. To have a similar "heft" compared to the old "ma bell" phones - which are made of actual durable materials - they removed lightness.
- paulmooreparks 6y ago
  There's a practical reason for this. If you're accustomed to quickly lifting a hefty handset to your ear, then the first time you lift one that's significantly lighter you might bash yourself in the temple with the handset.
  - m463 6y ago
    But because of the flimsiness and light weight, little energy would be imparted! :)
  - aaronmdjones 6y ago
    There's an episode of The Office (US) that features a prank based on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfGN7bfohms&t=13m51s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfGN7bfohms&t=13m51s
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Many old Bell-provided phone models also had metal weights inside.
- colanderman 6y ago
  (Assuming you are talking about a corded desk phone.) This is not the reason for the weights. Remove them from the base, and the phone ceases to stay put when you pick up the receiver (which is attached by a springy cord). Remove them from the receiver, and it is not heavy enough to keep the buttons on the hook depressed when hung up. (Source: I did exactly this in college, with exactly these results.)

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

The EU actually attempted to do the right thing when regulating dishwashers, and it actually made rules that it has to not just be efficient, but also get the dishes to a certain cleanliness standard. Either their standard was too lenient or their testing procedure unrealistic though, because my dishwasher has the "EU mode" (which has to be selected by default by law), and then 4 other modes that will actually clean the dishes. I'm surprised that the manufacturers didn't label the EU mode as such to make clear to customers who they have to thank for that. Such experiences sour consumers for future eco initiatives (compare e.g. early CFLs and LEDs leading to people hoarding incandescent bulbs and refusing to touch the technology to this day). Vacuum cleaners are the EU's most recent victim.

xienze 6y ago
> Either their standard was too lenient or their testing procedure unrealistic though, because my dishwasher has the "EU mode" (which has to be selected by default by law), and then 4 other modes that will actually clean the dishes. In the US these newish dishwashers drive me crazy. They don’t have a heating element on the bottom (efficient!) and anything plastic is absolutely dripping wet, even after it’s been drying overnight (or rather, actively drying for a couple hours and then just sitting there). You’re supposed to top them up CONSTANTLY with Jet Dry (drying agent), but it barely does anything. Parent was spot on in describing the efficiency gains as being a result of not doing the damn job.
- burnte 6y ago
  > You’re supposed to top them up CONSTANTLY with Jet Dry THANK YOU, I had no idea why my dish washer seems to go through jetdry like it was water!
  - gambiting 6y ago
    What's jet dry? Literally never heard about the term.
    - 6y ago

m463 6y ago

I've talk to people who said sometimes the benchmarks/tests are the problem. For example, I recall there was some computer EPA energy saver test - you ran the test and compared energy used to energy used at idle. Thing is the computer was so efficient that running the test was done mostly in hardware and took very little energy. So the ratio of benchmark energy to idle energy was pretty much 1:1.

hnick 6y ago

We got new toilets at home last year. Without fail, I have to full flush at least twice for solids. They simply aren't strong enough to do the job in one go like the old ones were. Such a waste of water.

mjevans 6y ago
That's exactly what I've said and done for years. I now even double-flush old toilets out of habit. The older style toilets I remember as a kid just worked. One flush would properly and fully clear out anything that didn't clog the darned thing. The new toilets barely flush properly with two flushes, and I still wonder how much is left behind in the backwash.
- constantine42 6y ago
  I had the opposite experience. Old huge tank toilets got clogged and the new high efficiency ones don't.
bluGill 6y ago
Quality matters. Cheap toilets don't do the job, but I spent a little extra for the best flush model and it flushes better than our old toilets.
colanderman 6y ago
Exact opposite experience for me. The traditional toilets in my childhood home (mid-90s) were (still are) slow, took several flushes for solids, and clogged constantly. The modern low-flow toilet in my current home flushes quickly, never needs more than one flush and never clogs. Anecdata is anecdata. It's most likely that some toilets are just bad and some are good, regardless of flow amount.
- hnick 6y ago
  Yeah I think we picked poorly (the plumber recommended this one). Maybe there's a valve we can tweak a bit somewhere, I should look into it.

nullc 6y ago

> For example, we had a window air conditioning unit in our previous house that had an efficiency feature. Instead of recirculating the air, it would cool to the temperature you asked for, then set itself a few degrees higher. Because of humidity that actually might be the right behaviour in some cases-- drop the temp lower then let it go back up a bit to lower the humidity level... but not in others. :)

senectus1 6y ago

Yeah we noticed an interesting change in the hybrid Toyota's. I've had two in my life so far, the Prius and the hybrid Camry. In both of those, the display that shows the battery charge can go from no bars to full bars. In the NEW versions of the hybrids, they never go to no bars or full bars, and a toyota rep told us they made that software change because new owners were ringing up and asking if they need to do something to stop the car over charging (because it was showing full bars). This sort of "presumptive tail wagging the dog" bullshit needs to stop. Manufacturers need to show us real data not the Fischer Price data.

mjevans 6y ago
Yes real data, but also real controls. Day to day it should do a partial charge, like 90-95% of most cells. There should also be a 'road trip' or similar charge mode that intentionally goes to 100% full charge on everything in concurrence with planning to actually drive for a long distance that might need the full capacity. It should be made more clear that this road trip mode spends battery life.
- senectus1 6y ago
  I mean.. in a hybrid I dont care. I want the car to control it, but I want to know that it's being controlled. If the car fuel economy is getting worse I will use the data feedback to collate anecdotal evidence to deliver to my mechanic. I might pay a visit to my mechanic sooner if I see strange behavior. I t might save me money, it might save a life.... but with a fake ass dashboard feeding me bullshit readings It's not in the slightest bit useful.

brokenmachine 6y ago

Like anything, you get what you measure. If you're only measuring energy usage, then actually doing the job is irrelevant.

lazyasciiart 6y ago

It is much more efficient for the air conditioner to allow a gap between the target temperature and the trigger temperature. Without that, it just has to run constantly to make sure that it isn't 0.01 degrees warmer than requested. And that may be what you want it to do, but it's an incredibly pointless waste of energy.

userbinator 6y ago
It could cool slightly beyond the set temperature, just like heating usually goes slightly hotter than thermostat setting.

flavius29663 6y ago

or the vacuum cleaners in the EU...limited to 800 watts, so now I have to spend 2-3 the time it used to take, when a single pass was enough. Why not just allow me to buy a 2-3000W machine and do a single pass? Better for the environment and better for my time

KozmoNau7 6y ago
Higher power consumption does not necessarily imply higher suction. Cheap brands did just decrease the motor power and their vacuum cleaners are terrible as a result. Higher-quality brands like Miele still suck as good as ever, they just use less power thanks to improved designs.

ChuckMcM 6y ago

This is a common misunderstanding of dual flush toilets. I don't know if you missed it, but the article was concerned with them leaking as opposed to their designed operation, which in fact does save water. They "work" because the most common form of evacuation for humans is urination. And that is easily cleared with a lower volume of water. The math is that even if you have to flush three times after you poop to get everything gone, you've saved water because most of the time you only peed and that took less water than it did before. The math checks out. That said, washing is a different story. That is because washing is a chemical process, not a mechanical one. Regulation has simultaneously cut phosphates[1] (EDIT: per wikipedia the phosphates chelates the water which allows the detergent to be more effective) and reduced water (which is required for chemical action) and as a result the effectiveness of washing units (dishwashers and clothes washers) has in some cases stopped being effective. Regulation itself has become less effective (in my opinion) because it continues to attack the symptom and not the problem. For example, it would have been just as effective to upgrade waste water treatment plants to remove all phosphates rather than ban them from detergents, however that solution creates a tax burden which can be resisted by a population whereas restricting the sale of products the consumer wants cannot be countered by the consumers directly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphates_in_detergent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphates_in_detergent

ggcdn 6y ago
Good points, it makes you wonder how many day to day things could have vastly improved user experience if government efforts were targeted at underlying problems instead of symptoms (borrowing your definitions of those two things). But plastics recycling comes to mind as a bit of a counter example, where all the effort has been put on dealing with the end problem, when perhaps they should be targeting the symptom (regulating unnecessary plastics and packaging, and taxing the producers instead of the consumers). Currently plastic producers have incentive to generate more plastics, and consumers are left trying to deal with the waste.
- ChuckMcM 6y ago
  Absolutely agree. If the actual cost to use plastic packaging was related to the externalized costs of plastic disposal it would immediately cause change and innovation in packaging.

jojobas 6y ago

Then there are efficiency ratings for electric heaters. Unless it's a radiant heater by the window, it gives exactly as much energy as it consumes. An "energy efficient" heater is a useless one.

smichel17 6y ago

I wonder about this with dishwashers. Mine, in the manual, recommends running the hot water in the sink to pre-heat the water in the pipes "for best results." How much worse would its energy & water efficiency ratings be if that were included?

pfranz 6y ago

The last two dryers I had ignored what you set and used their "dryness detection." It works ok for most things, but larger things like towels and sheets are still damp. Run the dryer a second time and it auto shuts off within literally a few minutes. Now the towels are mildewy I haven't found a lot of options.