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I watched my dad spend his career getting promoted into misery. He worked so hard to climb the ladder and was successful at it, but it took him too long to real

I watched my dad spend his career getting promoted into misery. He worked so hard to climb the ladder and was successful at it, but it took him too long to realize it was making him miserable. It got to the point where they were forcing him to take promotions by threatening to fire him. Eventually he called their bluff. He refused a promotion and was forced into early retirement. I tend to advise people to at least consider not caring about getting promoted. Here on HN, most of us are lucky enough to be in an industry where you can provide a comfortable life for you and your family at a relatively low rung on the ladder. Once you get there, focus on making sure you don't go backwards and otherwise just coast and do whatever makes you happiest at the end of the day. If playing corporate games makes you happy then by all means focus on that, but if it doesn't then there's nothing wrong with refusing to play. Not caring isn't right for everyone, but a lot of people just never consider it as an option. It's easy to get caught up in the rat race.

amdelamar 6y ago
When I worked at IBM I heard about this RA tactic before. To get rid of an unwanted employee a company might promote them frequently/repeatedly until they quit. What's the logic behind that? Why not fire them if their performance is poor? Is it because its cheaper for the company?
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  Someone explained recently that you can undermine unions by promoting labor to management and then firing the new managers.
  - jdsalaro 6y ago
    I still don't get how and in whose favor this plays.
    - rocqua 6y ago
      Management can't be in the union. So cripple the union by promoting the most effective members into management? Alternatively, if you want to fire someone and the union blocks it, promote them instead, then fire them later.
      - benhurmarcel 6y ago
        > Management can't be in the union. That's a weird rule. I've never encountered that in European unions.
        tchalla 6y ago
        There's a different gradient of workers union influence for employees at different levels. Traditionally, workers at the bottom of the pyramid have the highest union influence and it decreases as it goes further up.
- TuringNYC 6y ago
  I've seen it happen when the company appeared to want someone to turn around a sinking ship (project) (or go down with the ship and assume responsibility.) This was for a big project at a big publicly traded company. They gave someone a promotion and an ultra-reach assignment (literally, an assignment so reach that it was effectively unreachable in retrospect.) The person failed the assignment and went down with the ship. It wasn't a terrible deal because he got a huge layoff payout.
- vlovich123 6y ago
  Probably the Peter Principle. The army does the same thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle FWIW it's also done for ICs at Google where you have to get promoted to senior by some time or you're let go. I don't know what the story is for managers.
  - novok 6y ago
    You can be doing mostly the same job as eng I vs sr and be just fine if you stay in sr forever.
  - jsolson 6y ago
    > FWIW it's also done for ICs at Google where you have to get promoted to senior by some time or you're let go. I don't know what the story is for managers. Google explicitly changed the policy from expecting that all eng ICs reach L5 (Senior SWE) to expecting that all reach L4 (informally a "solid individual contributor").
    - dijit 6y ago
      I know it's not entirely related, but the informal responsibility you posted is really enlightening. Would you be ok with sharing your informal take on the other levels?
      - steelframe 6y ago
        I was at Google for about 10 years. Here’s my take on the levels. L3: How well do you do what you’re told? L4: How independent are you? What’s your individual impact? L5: How deeply technical are you? How well do you influence others on the team? What do you own? L6: What’s your reputation in the greater org? How is the product area better because of what you do? Why aren’t you a manager of a 10-person team yet? L7: How is the company notably different because of you? What technology did you create that most everyone knows about? How have you made a difference in Google’s quarterly revenues for your product area? Why aren’t you a manager of a 30-person group yet? L8: Why do you have the final say on whether the product area moves forward on any given idea? What books have you published? Which VPs regularly consult with you? Why aren’t you a director of a 200-person org yet?
nython 6y ago
Maybe he failed to breach the manager effort thermocline https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2015/02/22/theres-a-payoff-in-being-a-lifelong-technologist/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2015/02/22/theres-a-payof...
- afterburner 6y ago
  Ooooof. what a read.
- howlgarnish 6y ago
  > Answer by Michael O Church The author of this is a notorious troll best known for being repeatedly fired from his jobs (AFAIK he's actually never held a management position) and banned from HN, Wikipedia and Quora for sockpuppeting etc.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    That's a ridiculously harsh viewpoint on a named individual. For my money, he's probably one of the most insightful writers on technology in the field. I honestly thought that some of the stories he told about people hating him on the internet we're exaggerated, but seeing this comment is increasing my faith in his story. FWIW, I have been on HN since way before this, and found him to be an insightful commenter here also.
    - daniel-cussen 6y ago
      I agree. Even though he was extremely controversial, and though I can see why HN banned him, and I disagree with his views, I don't regret reading his comments, they were thought-provoking.
    - howlgarnish 6y ago
      Is my summary actually inaccurate? What are his qualifications to pontificate at length on the life of a middle manager, much less that of a director or VP at a large company, when he's never held any of these roles?
refurb 6y ago
I had the opportunity to work with a VP at a Fortune 500 company who was probably one of the best leaders I've worked with. Honest, not a lot of BS, willing to fight for her team. Now she could have been feeding me a line of crap, but I don't think so. Her attitude was people get too wrapped up on promotions. Her view was focus on getting the right mix of experience, regardless of the level you do it at. Once you hit that sweet spot of really knowing how the business works, that's when you'll make significant jumps up in the organization. It was an interesting observation (and likely very relevant to her own experience), but it was something I continue to noodle on.
BeetleB 6y ago
> I watched my dad spend his career getting promoted into misery. He worked so hard to climb the ladder and was successful at it, but it took him too long to realize it was making him miserable. With every job I've had, I look at the people senior to me and ask "Do I want their job?" Sometimes the answer is "Yes", but more often than not, the answer is "No." When it's the latter, you have a few choices: 1. Try to carve a unique senior role for yourself. I've never succeeded at this. In a big company, roles tend to be predefined. Or at least, if you're in a department where they aren't, then you likely would have answered "Yes" to the question above. 2. If you enjoy your work, just work to stay in it, do well but not get promoted. Accept your station in life. 3. Find another job. I've never regretted following 3 above. It hasn't led to better opportunities or pay, but it does keep me active.
- wsc981 6y ago
  And with regard to "Find another job". Consulting might be one of the best options if you like to keep doing what you enjoy most while getting good pay. I believe as a consultant (depending on your role) you might also be better able to avoid office politics. E.g. you don't have to follow some stupid "improvement strategy" with your boss to get a 2% raise at the end of the year.
  - fphhotchips 6y ago
    This is the most "it depends on what consulting house you work for" thing I've ever heard. If you're at any mid or large sized consulting firm, office politics are 3-4x as important as anywhere else.
    - wsc981 6y ago
      > This is the most "it depends on what consulting house you work for" thing I've ever heard. If you're at any mid or large sized consulting firm, office politics are 3-4x as important as anywhere else. I don't mean to work for a consulting house. Instead one should setup it's own consulting company. In order to set your own rate. Determine your own wage growth, etc...
  - 6y ago
namelosw 6y ago
I'm facing a similar situation, and I just decided to quit as I realized how toxic it could be. I work in a software consultancy, it was all good, but several years ago the company was sold and the management realized other professional service industries do the same thing as you mentioned, and they are really pushing forward this approach. They called it 'promote or leave'. It's crazy and stressful. People have to juggle several roles at a time: I was just a typical developer 2 years ago. Last year I was actively involved in architecture stuff, there were so many things to resolve while I still have my own deadlines to meet. This year I was thrown at the team lead position of two teams simultaneously, while I still have developing and solutioning tasks measure by days, and often I found myself can only start to sit there after endless meeting and programming only after 5 pm, and I also often need to assemble keynotes at night because all of the sudden there's a pre-sale meeting tomorrow morning. The best part is people would call these 'challenges' as they are good things. These challenges give people nothing but fragile works and projects. People who had enough would leave, and people who left would only strengthen the toxic atmosphere.

amdelamar 6y ago

When I worked at IBM I heard about this RA tactic before. To get rid of an unwanted employee a company might promote them frequently/repeatedly until they quit. What's the logic behind that? Why not fire them if their performance is poor? Is it because its cheaper for the company?

srtjstjsj 6y ago
Someone explained recently that you can undermine unions by promoting labor to management and then firing the new managers.
- jdsalaro 6y ago
  I still don't get how and in whose favor this plays.
  - rocqua 6y ago
    Management can't be in the union. So cripple the union by promoting the most effective members into management? Alternatively, if you want to fire someone and the union blocks it, promote them instead, then fire them later.
    - benhurmarcel 6y ago
      > Management can't be in the union. That's a weird rule. I've never encountered that in European unions.
      - tchalla 6y ago
        There's a different gradient of workers union influence for employees at different levels. Traditionally, workers at the bottom of the pyramid have the highest union influence and it decreases as it goes further up.
TuringNYC 6y ago
I've seen it happen when the company appeared to want someone to turn around a sinking ship (project) (or go down with the ship and assume responsibility.) This was for a big project at a big publicly traded company. They gave someone a promotion and an ultra-reach assignment (literally, an assignment so reach that it was effectively unreachable in retrospect.) The person failed the assignment and went down with the ship. It wasn't a terrible deal because he got a huge layoff payout.
vlovich123 6y ago
Probably the Peter Principle. The army does the same thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle FWIW it's also done for ICs at Google where you have to get promoted to senior by some time or you're let go. I don't know what the story is for managers.
- novok 6y ago
  You can be doing mostly the same job as eng I vs sr and be just fine if you stay in sr forever.
- jsolson 6y ago
  > FWIW it's also done for ICs at Google where you have to get promoted to senior by some time or you're let go. I don't know what the story is for managers. Google explicitly changed the policy from expecting that all eng ICs reach L5 (Senior SWE) to expecting that all reach L4 (informally a "solid individual contributor").
  - dijit 6y ago
    I know it's not entirely related, but the informal responsibility you posted is really enlightening. Would you be ok with sharing your informal take on the other levels?
    - steelframe 6y ago
      I was at Google for about 10 years. Here’s my take on the levels. L3: How well do you do what you’re told? L4: How independent are you? What’s your individual impact? L5: How deeply technical are you? How well do you influence others on the team? What do you own? L6: What’s your reputation in the greater org? How is the product area better because of what you do? Why aren’t you a manager of a 10-person team yet? L7: How is the company notably different because of you? What technology did you create that most everyone knows about? How have you made a difference in Google’s quarterly revenues for your product area? Why aren’t you a manager of a 30-person group yet? L8: Why do you have the final say on whether the product area moves forward on any given idea? What books have you published? Which VPs regularly consult with you? Why aren’t you a director of a 200-person org yet?

nython 6y ago

Maybe he failed to breach the manager effort thermocline https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2015/02/22/theres-a-payoff-in-being-a-lifelong-technologist/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2015/02/22/theres-a-payof...

afterburner 6y ago
Ooooof. what a read.
howlgarnish 6y ago
> Answer by Michael O Church The author of this is a notorious troll best known for being repeatedly fired from his jobs (AFAIK he's actually never held a management position) and banned from HN, Wikipedia and Quora for sockpuppeting etc.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  That's a ridiculously harsh viewpoint on a named individual. For my money, he's probably one of the most insightful writers on technology in the field. I honestly thought that some of the stories he told about people hating him on the internet we're exaggerated, but seeing this comment is increasing my faith in his story. FWIW, I have been on HN since way before this, and found him to be an insightful commenter here also.
  - daniel-cussen 6y ago
    I agree. Even though he was extremely controversial, and though I can see why HN banned him, and I disagree with his views, I don't regret reading his comments, they were thought-provoking.
  - howlgarnish 6y ago
    Is my summary actually inaccurate? What are his qualifications to pontificate at length on the life of a middle manager, much less that of a director or VP at a large company, when he's never held any of these roles?

refurb 6y ago

I had the opportunity to work with a VP at a Fortune 500 company who was probably one of the best leaders I've worked with. Honest, not a lot of BS, willing to fight for her team. Now she could have been feeding me a line of crap, but I don't think so. Her attitude was people get too wrapped up on promotions. Her view was focus on getting the right mix of experience, regardless of the level you do it at. Once you hit that sweet spot of really knowing how the business works, that's when you'll make significant jumps up in the organization. It was an interesting observation (and likely very relevant to her own experience), but it was something I continue to noodle on.

BeetleB 6y ago

> I watched my dad spend his career getting promoted into misery. He worked so hard to climb the ladder and was successful at it, but it took him too long to realize it was making him miserable. With every job I've had, I look at the people senior to me and ask "Do I want their job?" Sometimes the answer is "Yes", but more often than not, the answer is "No." When it's the latter, you have a few choices: 1. Try to carve a unique senior role for yourself. I've never succeeded at this. In a big company, roles tend to be predefined. Or at least, if you're in a department where they aren't, then you likely would have answered "Yes" to the question above. 2. If you enjoy your work, just work to stay in it, do well but not get promoted. Accept your station in life. 3. Find another job. I've never regretted following 3 above. It hasn't led to better opportunities or pay, but it does keep me active.

wsc981 6y ago
And with regard to "Find another job". Consulting might be one of the best options if you like to keep doing what you enjoy most while getting good pay. I believe as a consultant (depending on your role) you might also be better able to avoid office politics. E.g. you don't have to follow some stupid "improvement strategy" with your boss to get a 2% raise at the end of the year.
- fphhotchips 6y ago
  This is the most "it depends on what consulting house you work for" thing I've ever heard. If you're at any mid or large sized consulting firm, office politics are 3-4x as important as anywhere else.
  - wsc981 6y ago
    > This is the most "it depends on what consulting house you work for" thing I've ever heard. If you're at any mid or large sized consulting firm, office politics are 3-4x as important as anywhere else. I don't mean to work for a consulting house. Instead one should setup it's own consulting company. In order to set your own rate. Determine your own wage growth, etc...
- 6y ago

namelosw 6y ago

I'm facing a similar situation, and I just decided to quit as I realized how toxic it could be. I work in a software consultancy, it was all good, but several years ago the company was sold and the management realized other professional service industries do the same thing as you mentioned, and they are really pushing forward this approach. They called it 'promote or leave'. It's crazy and stressful. People have to juggle several roles at a time: I was just a typical developer 2 years ago. Last year I was actively involved in architecture stuff, there were so many things to resolve while I still have my own deadlines to meet. This year I was thrown at the team lead position of two teams simultaneously, while I still have developing and solutioning tasks measure by days, and often I found myself can only start to sit there after endless meeting and programming only after 5 pm, and I also often need to assemble keynotes at night because all of the sudden there's a pre-sale meeting tomorrow morning. The best part is people would call these 'challenges' as they are good things. These challenges give people nothing but fragile works and projects. People who had enough would leave, and people who left would only strengthen the toxic atmosphere.