24 ms·

How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

encom 6y ago
Walled off in EU. https://web.archive.org/web/20200923040823/https://www.npr.org/2020/09/15/913207918/how-to-say-no-for-the-people-pleaser-who-always-says-yes https://web.archive.org/web/20200923040823/https://www.npr.o...
m463 6y ago
"I've decided x" seems to help.
AmericanChopper 6y ago
The article concludes with suggesting people adopt the ‘soft no’. If the readers of this advice have issues with tension or anxiety (which is where the article seems to be targeted), that could backfire quite badly. If a person is known for their people pleasing yeses, a soft no could just be sending the signal that the requester needs to apply more pressure. Saying no naturally involves some level of confrontation, skirting around the confrontation usually has the effect of also skirting around the delivery of the correct message.
- loopz 6y ago
  A "soft no" implies respectful environment. Current working and world conditions precludes this. If you find yourself working for an environment that has started positive transformation, a "soft no" will be heard. This is indicative of such an environment (a listening environment).
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    I don’t think a soft vs hard no has much to do with respect (and I’m not sure why you think respectful working relationships aren’t possible). A hard no is just a definitive answer, and can be delivered as respectfully as you like. A soft no is usually an “I would if not for...”. Which some people will simply read as an invitation to remove blockers, or correct your mistaken prioritization decisions, so that you can deal with the more important issue of what they want you to do.
    - loopz 6y ago
      --
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        Preclude means to make impossible. I’ve also never in my rather long career noticed world affairs have a noticeable impact on my office culture. So I really do have no idea what you’re talking about.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- unishark 6y ago
  Yes, this is bad advice for dealing with people who came to haggle and that think their work starts when you say "no", much less when decline weakly.
dmichulke 6y ago
Book recommendations in that respect: - "No more Mr. Nice Guy" Robert A. Glover: A great book on identification and elimination of nice guy behaviors with lots of exercises. - "When I say no I feel guilty" Manuel J. Smith: Techniques with lots of examples on how to stay assertive and deal with attempts to manipulate you into doing something. Relevant for dealing with colleagues, spouses, shop clerks, ... There are others but those two books will get you very far if you take this seriously.
- jamaicahest 6y ago
  I read "No more Mr. Nice Guy" a few years ago and it completely changed my perspective on personal relationships, made me realise my own behaviour was part of the reason for my failed relationships in the past. I highly recommend reading it if you are interested in self-improvement.
- foreigner 6y ago
  I just discovered "No more Mr. Nice Guy" a few weeks ago and it is completely blowing my mind!
  - immy 6y ago
    Just make sure to balance out its prejudice with The Will to Change
    - GavinMcG 6y ago
      Yes! Another comment described NMMNG as peering into his brain, but The Will to Change peered into my childhood and my relationships and my soul.
- el_dev_hell 6y ago
  I've never heard of Robert A. Glover but the book sounds very interesting. Man, the GoodReads reviews are getting destroyed.
  - deleted 6y ago
CreepGin 6y ago
I vaguely remember this being somewhat of a problem for me when I was much younger. But after getting married and having kids, saying No to requests became natural for me.
- brtkdotse 6y ago
  Same here. While it’s tempting to chalk this up under “ball and chain”, I think it’s more a matter of realizing how precious little time you have and raising your bar of acceptance accordingly. I basically have two answers to requests - it’s either “sorry, gonna pass” or “HELL YES”. Edit: A trick I learned from Non-violent Communication is to reframe requests internally from “I have to do x” and “I should do x” as “I want to do x”. It much easier to make a decision when you hear the latter out loud.
  - kgwgk 6y ago
    I understood CreepGin's comment to be about saying "no" to the wife and kids (and your comment to be about saying "no" to others). Maybe there was some intentional ambiguity or maybe I'm too cynic.
  - CharmingOpp 6y ago
    Reminds me of this concept: https://sive.rs/hellyeah https://sive.rs/hellyeah
- cgriswald 6y ago
  I’ve been divorced so long I don’t really even consider myself divorced. I realized my part in the dissolution of my marriage was basically never saying no. Something in that realization clued me in to all kinds of social concepts and consequences I’d been basically unaware of my entire life. The closest thing I can compare it to is the growing awareness of your expanding consciousness you experience as a teen. I was the same person but a new window on the world opened up and I’ve never had a problem saying no since.
  - bladegash 6y ago
olivermarks 6y ago
NPR seems to be veering off into a sort of Oprah self help area.
pithon 6y ago
I've been complimented on my ability to say 'no.' It's incredibly useful to ensure I'm spending my limited time doing things that are impactful and worthwhile.
paxys 6y ago
I used to be exactly the person the article describes. Then I became an engineering manager. A year later, I cannot even recognize the old, people-pleasing me. Saying "no" by default, not jumping into commitments, pushing back on unreasonable demands (from both above and below) - all come so naturally to me now it's unbelievable.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > Then I became an engineering manager. A year later, I cannot even recognize the old, people-pleasing me How did that transition happen? How was the first time as an eng manager, did you get bitten by saying Yes sometimes in the very beginning
  - paxys 6y ago
    Yes, many times. Part of it was just my non-understanding of software complexity and organizational dynamics beyond just working on the end tasks.
    - cutemonster 6y ago
      Software complexity -- has bitten me too. e.g. it's amazing, I think, how things that seem like unimportant details sometimes can turn out to be 10 maybe 100 x more work than first thought
theonething 6y ago
> Before you say yes, pause The way I do this is respond with "Can I get back to you on that?" And perhaps append with "I need to check my schedule" or "check with my spouse, etc" And then make sure I do get back to them with an answer. When I make a snap response to a request, I often regret it because I haven't had time to think about the request and how to relates to my schedule, plans, interests, desire to help, pros, cons etc. By asking for more time to decide, I get the chance to think about it and that increases the chance that I'll make a decision that I'm happy with. Of course there are situations that call for an immediate response or that you know whether you want to say yes or no immediately, but for all others, the above works for me.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  At work, most requests come in through e-mail, IMs or tickets/tasks, which is great because it means I can let them simmer for a bit. But then there's some colleagues who send me a DM with a "hi are you there / can I call you" because they have something that they want out of their system Right Now (with e-mail and co, you send, then the something remains in the background until replied; with a call it's a one off thing and they can move on). And my first job had some of the worst; they'd send an e-mail, then a few minutes later give me a call "did you get my e-mail?" and repeat what was in there on the call. I mean come on. At least I can laugh about it now, and I didn't mind so much when I did it because it was a very er, dynamic job anyway.
unkulunkulu 6y ago
A brother of mine gave me an advice on this recently, goes like this: “just say no! After that find a reason why and give it, but first a no without thinking about it” I liked it
- cialowicz 6y ago
  It doesn't seem constructive to always say "no" to things. "Yes" is how things get built. If you say "yes" to the right things, and then execute well, you'll go far in life. I'm not arguing against saying "no" to things, but a policy of blanket "no" will leave you pretty unfulfilled.
  - skohan 6y ago
    Yeah I have worked with people who are oppositional as a rule: i.e. no matter what is proposed, they will find a flaw or a reason it's a bad idea. These were some of the worst team environments I ever worked in.
  - unkulunkulu 6y ago
    This is not an advice to say no, rather how to do it
  - chegra 6y ago
    It's easier to change from a "No" to a "Yes" than from a "Yes" to a "No". For instance, someone promise to take part in an event then at the last minute backed out. This is deal breaking. Compared this with saying "No" first then at the last minute indicating you will be able to take part. Saying no first is always better, you can always upgrade. I also agree that things get done by saying "yes". But, there are only 24 hrs in a day, and if you want to accomplish great things you need to focus, that requires saying no a lot. To quote Warren Buffet : "The difference between successful people and really successful people is that really successful people say no to almost everything."
  - ivanche 6y ago
    If you say "no", you say no to only one option. If you say "yes", you say no to all other options.
deleted 6y ago
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unabst 6y ago
From Yes to No is a hard 180. That's like nice to rude for a lot of people pleasers. Instead you can start by never saying Yes. This can even be fun for a while. Don't need to say no, but can't say yes. But after a bit of this, you find it easier to just say no, and even more respectful of other's time. And there you have it. Now you're saying no.
b0rsuk 6y ago
5 Tips To Stop People Pleasing (Richard Grannon, edited down to 15 minutes) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRprOhOaDSo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRprOhOaDSo 8 signs you're too nice for your own good (Psych2Go, 5:45) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw4M4q2NFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw4M4q2NFw If you're a people pleaser, you attract narcissists like a magnet. If you had narcissists in family, you develop a blind spot to this and are mostly unable to spot it. I STRONGLY recommend the DoctorRamani channel for that, she's a professor specializing in narcissism.
- FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
  When you watch Ramani's videos, you can see everyone around her shrink in fear of getting the "narcissist" label themselves, and offer her deference. It doesn't take a genius to see why she'd invest in a professional identity that lets her do this. In the comments, you can also see that many people identify with her and take pleasure from watching these displays. Meditating on the figure of the Narcissist makes us see the Narcissist in others (so better to resist them), makes us pity the Narcissist (the better to show them contempt, and the better to elevate ourselves), and simultaneously makes us envy the Narcissist's self-seeking (to make us more self-interested ourselves). It turns us partly into Them. So even as an evil god, I am not sure the Narcissist belongs in our pantheon. Best if he is at most a bit player.
  - b0rsuk 6y ago
    What exactly are you trying to say?
qz2 6y ago
Watch out for saying no. People you work with learn what things you will say no to and rephrase the question to avoid a let down or start asking the wrong question and then misquoting themselves later. This becomes a cat and mouse game of trying to determine what people’s intent really is. Humans are built for deception. I tend to respond with “let me sit down and think about this” then send them an email with their question and my answer. That gives both parties an opportunity to defend a position later or be honest about what the intent was as it’s amazing who emails get forwarded to when there’s a disagreement.
- thelightthat 6y ago
  Interesting. Could you give an example of rephrasing and being tricky/evasive?
  - unnouinceput 6y ago
    Here is one, with my wife: Me: "Honey, I'm horny, let's have sex" Her: "No, I am tired, i just got off from work, I need to lay down in bed to catch my breath" Me: "No need to do anything then. You'll catch your breath, and I'll do the work %wink% %wink%" Her: "It never happens like that and you know it" Me: "Nope, not today, trust me" And eventually she gives up, we have sex and guess what! It wasn't like that today either. And she always knows it. But she enjoys it nevertheless. C'est la vie ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - qz2 6y ago
    My wife is a fine example: Problem: coffee machine not working. Her representation of the problem: we need to buy a new coffee machine. Really what’s going on: coffee machine needs cleaning properly but it doesn’t match the rest of the stuff in the kitchen now. Edit: I'm sure this analogy probably works better for the folk downvoting when you look at it in terms of computation. Perhaps I should have write "the developer wants to rewrite this function as a microservice" whereas the real problem is "we need to fix this defect". The real thing is the developer wants to write a new shiny microservice full of new bugs rather than actually fix the damn bugs. Same as my wife wants a new shiny coffee machine but doesn't want to clean the old one (which is a shitty job, which I did in the end anyway because I made the faulty decision of saying yes to myself too quickly. I also fixed the bug)
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
I remember when it was “fashionable” for Marketing and Sales folks to never say no, and the rhetorical gymnastics they would go through to say no, while not actually saying “no,” would be amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J34UzHo4G5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J34UzHo4G5w
- toyg 6y ago
  What do you mean “it was”...? ;)
  - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
    Good point.
Teever 6y ago
I'd like to hear some comments from people who have experienced a situation where two people pleasers get into a feedback loop where they both start always saying yes to each other. I've experienced this kind of situation before and I'm only recently realizing that this is the nature of that situation and am starting to unravel it.
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  I think this even happens to non-people-pleasers sometimes, when the context makes such a "yes loop" appropriate. For example in sales there are some junctures where it's appropriate to bring a big-picture win of a relationship into the "yes zone" so that the "no zone" issues can take a breather. There are some good examples of that in this talk: https://youtu.be/dXZO7mdoTBE https://youtu.be/dXZO7mdoTBE There's also the theory that some people "metabolize" social communication in specific patterns, and different matches of these patterns create different problems or opportunities. The match-up you mention quite often suggests outward actions, or co-decisions that are made after the co-narrowing of possibilities: "Here are five places we can go today. I like them all. Do me a favor and pick your top three?" Accompanied by logical explanations as needed, this can be a really powerful technique. But yeah, also tough stuff... Quite often it's absolutely ok to make a subjective guess at a best outcome, move ahead, and trust that the other party will understand, based on your decision logic and your general willingness to be open.
- martinsb 6y ago
  From my experience: they end in a situation where nobody is happy - they both try to figure out what is the best for the other person and in the end they both end up in a situation that is not good for both of them. I know, twisted.
closeparen 6y ago
My life got a lot better after I stopped considering questions in terms of my own preferences and started considering them in terms of how they would connect me to others. I really don’t want to go out for drinks after work. But this preference is nothing compared to how much I value the friendships that come from doing it. Hiking a mountain is not in the top 100 things I want to do with my weekend. But a shared experience with a group of people is something I need deep in my soul. Human connection is the preference that weighs many times more than all the others combined. Prioritizing my own inane sense of self rather than adopting behaviors that could enable relationships was just idiotic self-torture.
- deleted 6y ago
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- therealx 6y ago
  Very well put. I feel this is hard to convey to someone, even though it's plainly obvious when they are deep in it. You have to have those moments of really wondering what is important to get there.
- kome 6y ago
  beautifully written. Indeed my problem is the contrary to the one in the article "How to say yes, for people closed in themselves who always say no."
  - unabst 6y ago
    So to put them together: people who say no too much are self-tortured, and people who say yes too much are tortured by others. Learning to say yes sounds great, but you're on the path to becoming a people pleaser. And people pleasers who listen to NPR and learn to say no are now on the path to... prioritizing themselves over relationships and self-torture. This can't be right. How do we not torture ourselves?
    - numpad0 6y ago
      Oversimplification: to live is to suffer
giu 6y ago
A book that helped me a lot in this regard: - "The Power of a Positive No: Save The Deal, Save The Relationship and Still Say No" by William Ury, the Co-Founder of the Harvard Program on Negotiation
- henrik_w 6y ago
  +1 for that book. This is how I reviewed it on Goodreads: "William Ury summarizes the main idea in this book as: Yes! No. Yes? When you say no to something, there is a reason. For example, you say no to working late, because you want to spend time with your family. The first yes is the yes you say to being with your family, and it is the reason you then say no to working late. The third yes is the effort to keep the relationship positive, even though you have said no. This formula is a great way of saying no in a positive way, and the whole book is spent explaining the formula and how to apply it. There are many examples throughout the book, and William Ury does a great job teaching the reader how to say no in the best possible way. Even if you don’t normally have a hard time saying no, it is still valuable to read, because the system he lays out is so well thought out. It’s a quick read, and all the examples make it even easier to understand." https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1871656944 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1871656944
Natales 6y ago
No means a lot more than “no” most of the time. My mom was Jehovah’s Witness, so I was raised always to take care of “the appearances”, always being polite, even when you disagree. When I moved to the US back in 2000, I “discovered” people have freedom to think and say whatever they want (kind of) and it was OK to dissent. The pendulum went the other way, and I became a big fan of Bill Maher and the “it’s OK to be politically incorrect” openly atheist crowd. But being in tech, and the corporate world, it’s not that easy… The biggest irony of all, is that now I live in what people consider to be “the country of freedom”, and yet, I’ve resorted back to my old ways, always using the “proper way to talk”, not to offend anyone, and always play the kind game. If you want to get anywhere in corporate America, you don’t have a choice anymore. You have to pretend, even if you agree 90%, you’re not pure enough. In reality, I love dissent, and hearing different ideas, and arguing, convince and being convinced, and not having to care about “banned” words or sensitivities. Lay it all on the table and come back to the drawing board. Where can any of us still get that? Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you.
- sideshowb 6y ago
  > Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you. I feel you here, there is too much sugar coating of everything, it's spread to the UK too. We are pleased to serve you at another checkout. We will be pleased to help you on another occasion. The weird thing is some people genuinely seem not to realize that the content of these messages is simply 'no' and actually respond differently to them. Conversely I get more wound up when people try to dress up no as yes. As to a literal f-you however, there are of course ways to say no without resorting to verbal abuse :)
  - gmueckl 6y ago
    You're missing the fact the information content of the quotes you give is fundamentally different from messages that say "not here" or "not now" in that they immediately suggests an alternative course of action. This is helpful instead of contrarian.
- unabst 6y ago
  And it shouldn't. If no is saying fuck you, then that's a far greater problem than being too nice. As if no is politically incorrect. This would have been a far better story actually than the NPR people pleaser pleaser feel good piece. In Japan there is honne and tatemae. So the corporate (and formal casual) bullshit is formalized. There's a script everyone follows to keep the peace. Then they all go out for a drink, and the cufflinks come off. The best scenario being, you get to say fuck you with the pretense of alcohol even if you're not drunk. And the wives know everything. So ironically, many Japanese admire the US where there is less of this bullshit. Except, that's only the appearance. Freedom is the tatemae. So the Japanese system actually works. In a system where you cannot avoid bullshit, scripted bullshit works wonders. So you need to question the system and those that support it. As it turns out, those that succeed with the system support it, and they're the wealthy.
andi999 6y ago
I am thinking about the bigger picture: what if functioning societies need people pleaser? For the individual it is not so good, but there should be an evolutionary reason why it exists (can also be a side effect of something else important of course).
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  It's not an absolute though; if you're a people pleaser you say 'yes' too much (and write yourself and your own interests off), but the opposite - rejecting everything - also isn't good. There is a balance, and everyone has to find it, set their own boundaries, manage their own time and energy.
- dxdm 6y ago
  Evolution does not demand anything of anybody, especially not of self-aware people who can make their own realizations about what's good for themselves. Evolution means adaptation to change; "society" is made up of the people around you, and they will also adapt to changes. Sometimes you need to push back a little to make a comfortable room for yourself between them.
deleted 6y ago
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GistNoesis 6y ago
Often it's closely related to miscommunication between High-Context culture people and Low-Context culture people. A people pleaser usually is from the high context, and implicitly by accepting to help there is an expectation that the person asking is at least just not merely exploiting them for personal gain and at least aiming to increase the collective value. Once you have identified what type of culture someone tend to follow. It becomes easier to say no to them because you know what to expect. It also allows you to know when to say yes even when the presented deal doesn't seem immediately rewarding because it opens some new interesting paths often leading to hard to anticipate long-term win-win situations. As a bonus, identifying their culture will allow you to communicate more effectively.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  What are "High-Context culture people and Low-Context culture people"?
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    Also, "Once you have identified what type of culture someone tend to follow" -- what are good ways to do that sooner rather than later?
    - GistNoesis 6y ago
      Typical characteristics from the two types : https://www2.pacific.edu/sis/culture/pub/context_cultures_high_and_lo.htm https://www2.pacific.edu/sis/culture/pub/context_cultures_hi... Often it's pretty straight forward when you ask yourself the question. As all cultural phenomenon, there is a strong local component to it but there are still many variations : knowing where they are from, whether they grow up in big city or small rural areas, is often a good starting guess. But after a few sentences exchange showing how direct or considerate of your specificity they are, how they value your time, you usually know without doubt. It's just about making sure you are in the right communication mode with the right person. To bring it back to the article theme : The way people hear a no is also pretty characteristic. So listening to their reaction when you are telling them no is also a pretty strong signal. For example if you tell no without justification to someone from high context culture when he asked something (if he ask it probably means that from his point of view he is expecting a positive answer) he won't probably take it good. And you have a few second to come-up with a sensible reason if you don't want to ruin the relationship. Whereas someone from low context culture is usually more direct and the no carries less weight to give or take, as in their eyes it means they will just ask to the next person.
magpi3 6y ago
I am a people pleaser. Something that helps me in relationships: I try to think of my actions in terms of the effects on the overall system rather than what my instincts tell me is the "right" thing to do. I can't trust my instincts. I have to analyze situations. And I know my people pleasing instincts are very harmful for all of my relationships - work, friendship, romantic - all of them.
royletron 6y ago
I see it very often that people who say 'yes' = good people, and people who say 'no' = bad peoples. I've certainly worked in places where turning down drinks after hours isolates you socially. I have also worked in places where those that say 'yes', typically are quite insufferable. I think for many years I have tried to be a 'yes' person but undercover. For example if I agree to drinks and I am aware there is another group that is also forming - with people I am less inclined to socialise with - I will steer the two groups apart 'Oh but I wanted to go somewhere I could eat'. I know this makes me a pretty bad person. More recently I have been able to be more upfront, and tell people I will 'see how it pans out'. If the group gets too big - which typically I can't deal with - then I will bow out. TLDR - It's a minefield peoples.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  It doesn't make you a bad person it makes you a good leader. You anticipated a bad social situation and smoothly avoided it making things better for everyone.
  - royletron 6y ago
    I feel like I need you to redo my CV! Thanks.
deleted 6y ago
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bergstromm466 6y ago
A concept that changed my life is the concept of 'emotional slavery' used in Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication theory (NVC). He teaches that others are not always responsible for our feelings, and that we often feel the way we feel because an important universal human need is not met. Yet we are not taught to be aware of these feelings. He says that in our modern culture it's common for 1) men to be taught to deny their feelings and 2) women to be taught to deny their needs. By listening to his talks and his audiobooks and using the definitions, frameworks and spiritual ideas behind NVC, I started to become more aware of the strategies I came to use, and the potential for evolving those. Rosenberg believes that the adoption of NVC comes in three steps that we can all go through once we start applying his ideas. It starts with 1) 'emotional slavery' - where we are unaware of how we blame everything on others and make them wrong for what they do. Second we go through the 'obnoxious phase' where we feel angry when we become aware of our slavery ways, and where we realize that we might have been stuck in various strategies where we also thought we were responsible for others' feelings and needs. We are angry because we want that to change. Lastly comes 'emotional liberation', where we are learning to better understand our feelings and unmet needs and where we can start asking for what we want. I practiced NVC together with my ex-partner, and in my eyes we both grew our self-awareness enourmously.
agumonkey 6y ago
I suffered from this in way I can barely explain. Recently I came to a place where I thought that 'if' you live your life like an adventure where anything you do has to be very exciting, than a yes means you really want to do, not just a 'why not' but something that tickles your soul. And a no was the reflection of that, "I could come, and do that, but it will be boring in a way and I'll only be a ghost which would be a shame for my existence and yours". Kinda like a contrast amplifier to filter out the noise in the middle. Well now that I think of it.. it's a bit like analog vs binary. ps: it may sound maniacal to always strive for deep excitement, but you can suffer from the dullness of things you don't enjoy .. you lose yourself seriously and socially people start to see you as the dull thing making half smiles. It's a 10fold loss at every stages.
- galfarragem 6y ago
  Derek Sivers says exactly that: https://sive.rs/hellyeah https://sive.rs/hellyeah
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    Thanks, it's also reminiscent with Bukowsky 'do not try'
- amelius 6y ago
  With that attitude, how do you convince yourself to do chores such as cleaning the house, or writing that boring glue-logic that your boss asked you to implement? I think the only way these tasks can be made exciting would be to build a cleaning robot or write a "glue-logic compiler". But these approaches would probably get you divorced or fired.
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    I was talking about interpersonal relationships mostly. For work I can't answer much, depending on the context, a job is a job, you signed for it, if the boss respects you and it's important for it to be done then I'd have no issue personally. If the job is disrespectful and not important I'd say no and do something else for the company. For chores.. that's up to you if want to live in filth. It's hygiene, nobody wants to do it, but it makes the rest (the things that you really like) a lot nicer.
taurath 6y ago
Note that people pleasing is often a side effect of trauma and early relationship. Not that being nice is bad, but when you can’t put up and boundaries or are anxious about saying no that can often be a good indicator. Certainly not for everyone, but it would’ve been helpful for me to hear.
- taurath 6y ago
  Early relationship trouble or attachment problems
darepublic 6y ago
As the song says: "How can people be so heartless? Easy to be hard, easy to say no." Also, situationally: "How can people be so stupid? Easy to relent, easy to say yes"
patwalls 6y ago
https://starterstory.com/how-to-say-no https://starterstory.com/how-to-say-no
slowwriter 6y ago
Clicks article on how to say no. Is asked to say yes to cookies and such. Clicks Decline just for the fun of it. Article is presented in glorious unstyled Times new Roman.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
I had to say no to a busy-work position this week. And I am a people pleaser. What I did frame it to my manager as saying ‘yes’ to my current work-state, which everyone agreed was going really well. Don’t want to mess up a good thing :)
tmaly 6y ago
I like the line from @sivers "Hell yes or no" As you get older, your time becomes gold. You really have to focus on what is really most important to you.
DomenicoMazza 6y ago
Yes we need to have boundaries but a part of me thinks the popularity of 'not being a people pleaser' is in the label 'people pleaser' and its negative connotation. I set boundaries and listen to my needs but also make a habit of doing good things for others... not for my own self-agrandising or relieving myself of guilt but to set the EXAMPLE of what is good and how I would like to be treated—I don't really care about people's perception of me unless it has some logical argument to it and a lesson in it. Today I felt like getting in touch with people I haven't caught up with in a while and it was great.. it's part of my character.. I like to feel connected. I am upset by the number of transnational people out there that only hold space for you (well try to hold space) when they need you. In short.. understanding your boundaries is good.. BUT making a habit of not being a label.. a perception that sharing your goodness is some wicked thing that saps you of energy.. maybe think carefully if a boundary is being crossed or not first. Some people do gain pleasure from doing good for others. I've certainly learned from going too far with kindness for my perception but that's how you find your boundary and way to being truly sincere.
sethammons 6y ago
Let’s say your problem is time: you agree to too much. I struggle with the balance of helping others and getting my own stuff done. My stuff gets done, but may take longer than I would like. At work yesterday, I was helping some other teams and saw they were going down the wrong path. I had, at this point, already told them I had to stop helping to get my own stuff done. But I couldn’t just let them waste hours doing the wrong thing when I popped back into slack during lunch. Queue my need to help, and I was reengaged to avert lots of wasted time on a time sensitive issue. Now I’m a bit behind today. My manager would likely say to let them worry about, do my stuff. But that feels wrong to not support others where you can. This is my “saying no” problem.
- spdionis 6y ago
  You are effectively "saying no" to your manager. In your estimation helping your colleagues is more impactful to the company than doing your current task. I don't think there's anything wrong with the attitude. The manager's intention is probably to help you shield yourself from unwanted help requests. But if you actually think you should help that team, then do it!
waylandsmithers 6y ago
I'm curious about what people think of a "second-request" kind of strategy I have at work: Sometimes when I get asked to do something I feel is unreasonable, unwarranted, or unnecessary (and it's not something like, there's a fire in the conference room and I'm trapped, please help), I'll totally ignore it, but if they ask a second time, I'll just do it. Very often they either forget, or just do it themselves before coming back, confirming that it was either unnecessary or they didn't need me to do the thing in the first place. If they do come back, it's easy to come into the plausible deniability and "Oh sorry I forgot! I'm on it." And then maybe guilt them with "I was caught up in ${task that actually is part of my job}."
- toast0 6y ago
  That strategy worked well for me, although I wasn't actually trying to ignore the requests. I just got a lot of requests and wasn't organized about them, so some things fell through the cracks. That said, I would push back on things that I was definitely not going to do. For some things, that's person A can do this; for others that's if you can find someone to do this, ok; for some it's I'm not going to do this unless my manager or the CEO personally asks me to; for others it's I won't do this, and I won't deploy it, and I'll unmerge it if it's done by someone else. And always try to give people an idea of when to remind me if I haven't done it.
momokoko 6y ago
The whole make yourself happy first mentality is a bizarre side effect of therapy. Therapists have one client. Not the client’s family, friends, coworkers, and community. Because of that much of the advice therapist give benefits the client at the expense of everyone else. This creates a toxic environment when you have a large percentage of any group going to therapy and practicing me first techniques. I wonder if there is a way to align therapist goals with the greater good as opposed to the single client. Much how we have made changes to help doctors care for the long term physical health of a patient over a short term fix.
- epicide 6y ago
  Not all therapy works that way. For a lot of people seeking therapy, their issues do start with a personal sense of lacking. Starting with helping them to love themselves first makes sense. If someone goes to a therapist with narcissistic tendencies or anger issues, I would expect less of the "me first" approach.
  - citrate05 6y ago
    I’d actually go so far as to say that I’m not familiar with any legitimate therapeutic approach that is not concerned with how the patient treats others. I’ve definitely read self-help books that seemed to be advocating for narcissistic behavior, but they weren’t written by mainstream psychologists or therapists.
- citrate05 6y ago
  I’d be curious to hear a specific example of the toxic or self-centered behavior you’re referring to, since this is not at all my experience.
- jupiter90000 6y ago
  I'm not so sure if it is a side effect of therapy? At least in the modern capitalist world, people seem to be pretty 'me first' whether they've done therapy or not. Take America, where we refuse to have significant social safety net. I don't think this is because everyone started doing therapy...
calebm 6y ago
If you have to be told how to say no, you're still just following.
yt-sdb 6y ago
> Lue says the soft no should be only about three sentences long. A common mistake, she says, is giving too much of an explanation or being over-apologetic. I used to over-explain in these situations. The advice that finally changed my behavior was this: only explain yourself if you're willing to negotiate, if new information might actually change your answer. Otherwise, the reason is usually irrelevant, and you only open yourself up to a discussion.
n_io 6y ago
I think the biggest thing for me, which wasn’t covered in this article, was in understanding that even by saying yes all the time you are NOT guaranteed to please or make the other party happy. This is important to understand because, speaking for myself, my emotional motivation to please people stems from my primary desire to avoid emotional tension. In understanding that even by sacrificing my own desire I’m in no way guaranteeing that outcome was a game changer for me. Furthermore, avoiding these negative emotions can make things worse or generate more of the emotion I was trying to avoid, in the long run.
hcrean 6y ago
When there is something I don't want to do, I think of what Billy Butcher would say. Sadly we can't be that direct in most of life, but the thought is normally there.
pessimizer 6y ago
If you're a people-pleaser, don't ever do what this article is calling a "soft no." It's proposing this as a compromise between a "hard no" and a yes, but there's no benefit in being compromised here. The more practice you get with your "hard no," the better you'll get at it. Eventually you'll have to pull back because you're finding it too easy to say no. That's when you know you're cured. A "soft no" given to an assertive person just means "I'm telling you what's keeping me from saying yes, if you solve it, it's a yes." You will get talked into saying "yes" every time you speak to a person with social skills, and your "soft no" will only stand with people who are shy or unassertive, regardless of the merit of the requests. It'll inevitably lead to getting used by the people who have the least consideration for other people's time, and who always push as a general policy. Just say "no." You don't have to say it quickly; wait to hear the person's case if you need to, but at the point when you mean "no," say "no." If you honestly feel you need to be convinced, or you need solutions to obstructions that are keeping you from agreeing, just say so, but don't confuse that with a "no."
- tclancy 6y ago
  Yeah, that was the one weird bit to me. I definitely am one of these people and have only figured it out (somewhat) after 40 years. The soft No is the last thing you want to do. It's like playing cards (I hate to be so transactional about it) with yours on the table.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  I start with a soft no. Assholes discover just how close to that the hard no lies. When dealing with reasonable and perceptive people, a soft no is sufficient and provides social lubricant. Oh: my lifetime supply of fucks to give ran out a decade back. No, I'm not gratuitously rude (anything but). But I meet gratuitous rudeness with same. In the long run it reduces need to do so.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    Yes, this is a good strategy when you already have the skill to say "no". But for someone who just learns it, "soft no" means having to say "no" twice, when they barely can say it once.
flemhans 6y ago
As a "people pleaser" I for one didn't click with this article. Yes, I do say yes to most every one request one asks me to. Including favours people might ask me to do. I do what ever people ask, and it's a blissful joy. I'm happy to service and I'm happy to have so many friends.
- flemhans 6y ago
  Edit; Some people asked and yes I'm "super-rich". :P
hi41 6y ago
I have a people pleaser throughout my life. As a small kid I was very timid and had social anxiety. As an adult, I still remain timid and have difficulty expressing my opinions. My people pleaser attitude had a detrimental effect on my software career. I said yes to all the production support tasks and spent so much time on it that I no longer got project coding work. I lost my software developer job. I have taken up a production support job yo pay the bills. My dreams died with it. I took an interim java coder job. I couldn’t code even one line.
known 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys is better

Walled off in EU. https://web.archive.org/web/20200923040823/https://www.npr.org/2020/09/15/913207918/how-to-say-no-for-the-people-pleaser-who-always-says-yes https://web.archive.org/web/20200923040823/https://www.npr.o...

m463 6y ago

"I've decided x" seems to help.

AmericanChopper 6y ago

The article concludes with suggesting people adopt the ‘soft no’. If the readers of this advice have issues with tension or anxiety (which is where the article seems to be targeted), that could backfire quite badly. If a person is known for their people pleasing yeses, a soft no could just be sending the signal that the requester needs to apply more pressure. Saying no naturally involves some level of confrontation, skirting around the confrontation usually has the effect of also skirting around the delivery of the correct message.

loopz 6y ago
A "soft no" implies respectful environment. Current working and world conditions precludes this. If you find yourself working for an environment that has started positive transformation, a "soft no" will be heard. This is indicative of such an environment (a listening environment).
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I don’t think a soft vs hard no has much to do with respect (and I’m not sure why you think respectful working relationships aren’t possible). A hard no is just a definitive answer, and can be delivered as respectfully as you like. A soft no is usually an “I would if not for...”. Which some people will simply read as an invitation to remove blockers, or correct your mistaken prioritization decisions, so that you can deal with the more important issue of what they want you to do.
  - loopz 6y ago
    --
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      Preclude means to make impossible. I’ve also never in my rather long career noticed world affairs have a noticeable impact on my office culture. So I really do have no idea what you’re talking about.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
unishark 6y ago
Yes, this is bad advice for dealing with people who came to haggle and that think their work starts when you say "no", much less when decline weakly.

dmichulke 6y ago

Book recommendations in that respect: - "No more Mr. Nice Guy" Robert A. Glover: A great book on identification and elimination of nice guy behaviors with lots of exercises. - "When I say no I feel guilty" Manuel J. Smith: Techniques with lots of examples on how to stay assertive and deal with attempts to manipulate you into doing something. Relevant for dealing with colleagues, spouses, shop clerks, ... There are others but those two books will get you very far if you take this seriously.

jamaicahest 6y ago
I read "No more Mr. Nice Guy" a few years ago and it completely changed my perspective on personal relationships, made me realise my own behaviour was part of the reason for my failed relationships in the past. I highly recommend reading it if you are interested in self-improvement.
foreigner 6y ago
I just discovered "No more Mr. Nice Guy" a few weeks ago and it is completely blowing my mind!
- immy 6y ago
  Just make sure to balance out its prejudice with The Will to Change
  - GavinMcG 6y ago
    Yes! Another comment described NMMNG as peering into his brain, but The Will to Change peered into my childhood and my relationships and my soul.
el_dev_hell 6y ago
I've never heard of Robert A. Glover but the book sounds very interesting. Man, the GoodReads reviews are getting destroyed.
- deleted 6y ago

CreepGin 6y ago

I vaguely remember this being somewhat of a problem for me when I was much younger. But after getting married and having kids, saying No to requests became natural for me.

brtkdotse 6y ago
Same here. While it’s tempting to chalk this up under “ball and chain”, I think it’s more a matter of realizing how precious little time you have and raising your bar of acceptance accordingly. I basically have two answers to requests - it’s either “sorry, gonna pass” or “HELL YES”. Edit: A trick I learned from Non-violent Communication is to reframe requests internally from “I have to do x” and “I should do x” as “I want to do x”. It much easier to make a decision when you hear the latter out loud.
- kgwgk 6y ago
  I understood CreepGin's comment to be about saying "no" to the wife and kids (and your comment to be about saying "no" to others). Maybe there was some intentional ambiguity or maybe I'm too cynic.
- CharmingOpp 6y ago
  Reminds me of this concept: https://sive.rs/hellyeah https://sive.rs/hellyeah
cgriswald 6y ago
I’ve been divorced so long I don’t really even consider myself divorced. I realized my part in the dissolution of my marriage was basically never saying no. Something in that realization clued me in to all kinds of social concepts and consequences I’d been basically unaware of my entire life. The closest thing I can compare it to is the growing awareness of your expanding consciousness you experience as a teen. I was the same person but a new window on the world opened up and I’ve never had a problem saying no since.
- bladegash 6y ago

olivermarks 6y ago

NPR seems to be veering off into a sort of Oprah self help area.

pithon 6y ago

I've been complimented on my ability to say 'no.' It's incredibly useful to ensure I'm spending my limited time doing things that are impactful and worthwhile.

paxys 6y ago

I used to be exactly the person the article describes. Then I became an engineering manager. A year later, I cannot even recognize the old, people-pleasing me. Saying "no" by default, not jumping into commitments, pushing back on unreasonable demands (from both above and below) - all come so naturally to me now it's unbelievable.

cutemonster 6y ago
> Then I became an engineering manager. A year later, I cannot even recognize the old, people-pleasing me How did that transition happen? How was the first time as an eng manager, did you get bitten by saying Yes sometimes in the very beginning
- paxys 6y ago
  Yes, many times. Part of it was just my non-understanding of software complexity and organizational dynamics beyond just working on the end tasks.
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    Software complexity -- has bitten me too. e.g. it's amazing, I think, how things that seem like unimportant details sometimes can turn out to be 10 maybe 100 x more work than first thought

theonething 6y ago

> Before you say yes, pause The way I do this is respond with "Can I get back to you on that?" And perhaps append with "I need to check my schedule" or "check with my spouse, etc" And then make sure I do get back to them with an answer. When I make a snap response to a request, I often regret it because I haven't had time to think about the request and how to relates to my schedule, plans, interests, desire to help, pros, cons etc. By asking for more time to decide, I get the chance to think about it and that increases the chance that I'll make a decision that I'm happy with. Of course there are situations that call for an immediate response or that you know whether you want to say yes or no immediately, but for all others, the above works for me.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
At work, most requests come in through e-mail, IMs or tickets/tasks, which is great because it means I can let them simmer for a bit. But then there's some colleagues who send me a DM with a "hi are you there / can I call you" because they have something that they want out of their system Right Now (with e-mail and co, you send, then the something remains in the background until replied; with a call it's a one off thing and they can move on). And my first job had some of the worst; they'd send an e-mail, then a few minutes later give me a call "did you get my e-mail?" and repeat what was in there on the call. I mean come on. At least I can laugh about it now, and I didn't mind so much when I did it because it was a very er, dynamic job anyway.

unkulunkulu 6y ago

A brother of mine gave me an advice on this recently, goes like this: “just say no! After that find a reason why and give it, but first a no without thinking about it” I liked it

cialowicz 6y ago
It doesn't seem constructive to always say "no" to things. "Yes" is how things get built. If you say "yes" to the right things, and then execute well, you'll go far in life. I'm not arguing against saying "no" to things, but a policy of blanket "no" will leave you pretty unfulfilled.
- skohan 6y ago
  Yeah I have worked with people who are oppositional as a rule: i.e. no matter what is proposed, they will find a flaw or a reason it's a bad idea. These were some of the worst team environments I ever worked in.
- unkulunkulu 6y ago
  This is not an advice to say no, rather how to do it
- chegra 6y ago
  It's easier to change from a "No" to a "Yes" than from a "Yes" to a "No". For instance, someone promise to take part in an event then at the last minute backed out. This is deal breaking. Compared this with saying "No" first then at the last minute indicating you will be able to take part. Saying no first is always better, you can always upgrade. I also agree that things get done by saying "yes". But, there are only 24 hrs in a day, and if you want to accomplish great things you need to focus, that requires saying no a lot. To quote Warren Buffet : "The difference between successful people and really successful people is that really successful people say no to almost everything."
- ivanche 6y ago
  If you say "no", you say no to only one option. If you say "yes", you say no to all other options.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

unabst 6y ago

From Yes to No is a hard 180. That's like nice to rude for a lot of people pleasers. Instead you can start by never saying Yes. This can even be fun for a while. Don't need to say no, but can't say yes. But after a bit of this, you find it easier to just say no, and even more respectful of other's time. And there you have it. Now you're saying no.

b0rsuk 6y ago

5 Tips To Stop People Pleasing (Richard Grannon, edited down to 15 minutes) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRprOhOaDSo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRprOhOaDSo 8 signs you're too nice for your own good (Psych2Go, 5:45) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw4M4q2NFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw4M4q2NFw If you're a people pleaser, you attract narcissists like a magnet. If you had narcissists in family, you develop a blind spot to this and are mostly unable to spot it. I STRONGLY recommend the DoctorRamani channel for that, she's a professor specializing in narcissism.

FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
When you watch Ramani's videos, you can see everyone around her shrink in fear of getting the "narcissist" label themselves, and offer her deference. It doesn't take a genius to see why she'd invest in a professional identity that lets her do this. In the comments, you can also see that many people identify with her and take pleasure from watching these displays. Meditating on the figure of the Narcissist makes us see the Narcissist in others (so better to resist them), makes us pity the Narcissist (the better to show them contempt, and the better to elevate ourselves), and simultaneously makes us envy the Narcissist's self-seeking (to make us more self-interested ourselves). It turns us partly into Them. So even as an evil god, I am not sure the Narcissist belongs in our pantheon. Best if he is at most a bit player.
- b0rsuk 6y ago
  What exactly are you trying to say?

qz2 6y ago

Watch out for saying no. People you work with learn what things you will say no to and rephrase the question to avoid a let down or start asking the wrong question and then misquoting themselves later. This becomes a cat and mouse game of trying to determine what people’s intent really is. Humans are built for deception. I tend to respond with “let me sit down and think about this” then send them an email with their question and my answer. That gives both parties an opportunity to defend a position later or be honest about what the intent was as it’s amazing who emails get forwarded to when there’s a disagreement.

thelightthat 6y ago
Interesting. Could you give an example of rephrasing and being tricky/evasive?
- unnouinceput 6y ago
  Here is one, with my wife: Me: "Honey, I'm horny, let's have sex" Her: "No, I am tired, i just got off from work, I need to lay down in bed to catch my breath" Me: "No need to do anything then. You'll catch your breath, and I'll do the work %wink% %wink%" Her: "It never happens like that and you know it" Me: "Nope, not today, trust me" And eventually she gives up, we have sex and guess what! It wasn't like that today either. And she always knows it. But she enjoys it nevertheless. C'est la vie ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- qz2 6y ago
  My wife is a fine example: Problem: coffee machine not working. Her representation of the problem: we need to buy a new coffee machine. Really what’s going on: coffee machine needs cleaning properly but it doesn’t match the rest of the stuff in the kitchen now. Edit: I'm sure this analogy probably works better for the folk downvoting when you look at it in terms of computation. Perhaps I should have write "the developer wants to rewrite this function as a microservice" whereas the real problem is "we need to fix this defect". The real thing is the developer wants to write a new shiny microservice full of new bugs rather than actually fix the damn bugs. Same as my wife wants a new shiny coffee machine but doesn't want to clean the old one (which is a shitty job, which I did in the end anyway because I made the faulty decision of saying yes to myself too quickly. I also fixed the bug)

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

I remember when it was “fashionable” for Marketing and Sales folks to never say no, and the rhetorical gymnastics they would go through to say no, while not actually saying “no,” would be amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J34UzHo4G5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J34UzHo4G5w

toyg 6y ago
What do you mean “it was”...? ;)
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  Good point.

Teever 6y ago

I'd like to hear some comments from people who have experienced a situation where two people pleasers get into a feedback loop where they both start always saying yes to each other. I've experienced this kind of situation before and I'm only recently realizing that this is the nature of that situation and am starting to unravel it.

themodelplumber 6y ago
I think this even happens to non-people-pleasers sometimes, when the context makes such a "yes loop" appropriate. For example in sales there are some junctures where it's appropriate to bring a big-picture win of a relationship into the "yes zone" so that the "no zone" issues can take a breather. There are some good examples of that in this talk: https://youtu.be/dXZO7mdoTBE https://youtu.be/dXZO7mdoTBE There's also the theory that some people "metabolize" social communication in specific patterns, and different matches of these patterns create different problems or opportunities. The match-up you mention quite often suggests outward actions, or co-decisions that are made after the co-narrowing of possibilities: "Here are five places we can go today. I like them all. Do me a favor and pick your top three?" Accompanied by logical explanations as needed, this can be a really powerful technique. But yeah, also tough stuff... Quite often it's absolutely ok to make a subjective guess at a best outcome, move ahead, and trust that the other party will understand, based on your decision logic and your general willingness to be open.
martinsb 6y ago
From my experience: they end in a situation where nobody is happy - they both try to figure out what is the best for the other person and in the end they both end up in a situation that is not good for both of them. I know, twisted.

closeparen 6y ago

My life got a lot better after I stopped considering questions in terms of my own preferences and started considering them in terms of how they would connect me to others. I really don’t want to go out for drinks after work. But this preference is nothing compared to how much I value the friendships that come from doing it. Hiking a mountain is not in the top 100 things I want to do with my weekend. But a shared experience with a group of people is something I need deep in my soul. Human connection is the preference that weighs many times more than all the others combined. Prioritizing my own inane sense of self rather than adopting behaviors that could enable relationships was just idiotic self-torture.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
therealx 6y ago
Very well put. I feel this is hard to convey to someone, even though it's plainly obvious when they are deep in it. You have to have those moments of really wondering what is important to get there.
kome 6y ago
beautifully written. Indeed my problem is the contrary to the one in the article "How to say yes, for people closed in themselves who always say no."
- unabst 6y ago
  So to put them together: people who say no too much are self-tortured, and people who say yes too much are tortured by others. Learning to say yes sounds great, but you're on the path to becoming a people pleaser. And people pleasers who listen to NPR and learn to say no are now on the path to... prioritizing themselves over relationships and self-torture. This can't be right. How do we not torture ourselves?
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Oversimplification: to live is to suffer

giu 6y ago

A book that helped me a lot in this regard: - "The Power of a Positive No: Save The Deal, Save The Relationship and Still Say No" by William Ury, the Co-Founder of the Harvard Program on Negotiation

henrik_w 6y ago
+1 for that book. This is how I reviewed it on Goodreads: "William Ury summarizes the main idea in this book as: Yes! No. Yes? When you say no to something, there is a reason. For example, you say no to working late, because you want to spend time with your family. The first yes is the yes you say to being with your family, and it is the reason you then say no to working late. The third yes is the effort to keep the relationship positive, even though you have said no. This formula is a great way of saying no in a positive way, and the whole book is spent explaining the formula and how to apply it. There are many examples throughout the book, and William Ury does a great job teaching the reader how to say no in the best possible way. Even if you don’t normally have a hard time saying no, it is still valuable to read, because the system he lays out is so well thought out. It’s a quick read, and all the examples make it even easier to understand." https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1871656944 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1871656944

Natales 6y ago

No means a lot more than “no” most of the time. My mom was Jehovah’s Witness, so I was raised always to take care of “the appearances”, always being polite, even when you disagree. When I moved to the US back in 2000, I “discovered” people have freedom to think and say whatever they want (kind of) and it was OK to dissent. The pendulum went the other way, and I became a big fan of Bill Maher and the “it’s OK to be politically incorrect” openly atheist crowd. But being in tech, and the corporate world, it’s not that easy… The biggest irony of all, is that now I live in what people consider to be “the country of freedom”, and yet, I’ve resorted back to my old ways, always using the “proper way to talk”, not to offend anyone, and always play the kind game. If you want to get anywhere in corporate America, you don’t have a choice anymore. You have to pretend, even if you agree 90%, you’re not pure enough. In reality, I love dissent, and hearing different ideas, and arguing, convince and being convinced, and not having to care about “banned” words or sensitivities. Lay it all on the table and come back to the drawing board. Where can any of us still get that? Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you.

sideshowb 6y ago
> Many times, no is a polite way to say f-you. I feel you here, there is too much sugar coating of everything, it's spread to the UK too. We are pleased to serve you at another checkout. We will be pleased to help you on another occasion. The weird thing is some people genuinely seem not to realize that the content of these messages is simply 'no' and actually respond differently to them. Conversely I get more wound up when people try to dress up no as yes. As to a literal f-you however, there are of course ways to say no without resorting to verbal abuse :)
- gmueckl 6y ago
  You're missing the fact the information content of the quotes you give is fundamentally different from messages that say "not here" or "not now" in that they immediately suggests an alternative course of action. This is helpful instead of contrarian.
unabst 6y ago
And it shouldn't. If no is saying fuck you, then that's a far greater problem than being too nice. As if no is politically incorrect. This would have been a far better story actually than the NPR people pleaser pleaser feel good piece. In Japan there is honne and tatemae. So the corporate (and formal casual) bullshit is formalized. There's a script everyone follows to keep the peace. Then they all go out for a drink, and the cufflinks come off. The best scenario being, you get to say fuck you with the pretense of alcohol even if you're not drunk. And the wives know everything. So ironically, many Japanese admire the US where there is less of this bullshit. Except, that's only the appearance. Freedom is the tatemae. So the Japanese system actually works. In a system where you cannot avoid bullshit, scripted bullshit works wonders. So you need to question the system and those that support it. As it turns out, those that succeed with the system support it, and they're the wealthy.

andi999 6y ago

I am thinking about the bigger picture: what if functioning societies need people pleaser? For the individual it is not so good, but there should be an evolutionary reason why it exists (can also be a side effect of something else important of course).

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
It's not an absolute though; if you're a people pleaser you say 'yes' too much (and write yourself and your own interests off), but the opposite - rejecting everything - also isn't good. There is a balance, and everyone has to find it, set their own boundaries, manage their own time and energy.
dxdm 6y ago
Evolution does not demand anything of anybody, especially not of self-aware people who can make their own realizations about what's good for themselves. Evolution means adaptation to change; "society" is made up of the people around you, and they will also adapt to changes. Sometimes you need to push back a little to make a comfortable room for yourself between them.

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GistNoesis 6y ago

Often it's closely related to miscommunication between High-Context culture people and Low-Context culture people. A people pleaser usually is from the high context, and implicitly by accepting to help there is an expectation that the person asking is at least just not merely exploiting them for personal gain and at least aiming to increase the collective value. Once you have identified what type of culture someone tend to follow. It becomes easier to say no to them because you know what to expect. It also allows you to know when to say yes even when the presented deal doesn't seem immediately rewarding because it opens some new interesting paths often leading to hard to anticipate long-term win-win situations. As a bonus, identifying their culture will allow you to communicate more effectively.

partyboat1586 6y ago
What are "High-Context culture people and Low-Context culture people"?
- cutemonster 6y ago
  Also, "Once you have identified what type of culture someone tend to follow" -- what are good ways to do that sooner rather than later?
  - GistNoesis 6y ago
    Typical characteristics from the two types : https://www2.pacific.edu/sis/culture/pub/context_cultures_high_and_lo.htm https://www2.pacific.edu/sis/culture/pub/context_cultures_hi... Often it's pretty straight forward when you ask yourself the question. As all cultural phenomenon, there is a strong local component to it but there are still many variations : knowing where they are from, whether they grow up in big city or small rural areas, is often a good starting guess. But after a few sentences exchange showing how direct or considerate of your specificity they are, how they value your time, you usually know without doubt. It's just about making sure you are in the right communication mode with the right person. To bring it back to the article theme : The way people hear a no is also pretty characteristic. So listening to their reaction when you are telling them no is also a pretty strong signal. For example if you tell no without justification to someone from high context culture when he asked something (if he ask it probably means that from his point of view he is expecting a positive answer) he won't probably take it good. And you have a few second to come-up with a sensible reason if you don't want to ruin the relationship. Whereas someone from low context culture is usually more direct and the no carries less weight to give or take, as in their eyes it means they will just ask to the next person.

magpi3 6y ago

I am a people pleaser. Something that helps me in relationships: I try to think of my actions in terms of the effects on the overall system rather than what my instincts tell me is the "right" thing to do. I can't trust my instincts. I have to analyze situations. And I know my people pleasing instincts are very harmful for all of my relationships - work, friendship, romantic - all of them.

royletron 6y ago

I see it very often that people who say 'yes' = good people, and people who say 'no' = bad peoples. I've certainly worked in places where turning down drinks after hours isolates you socially. I have also worked in places where those that say 'yes', typically are quite insufferable. I think for many years I have tried to be a 'yes' person but undercover. For example if I agree to drinks and I am aware there is another group that is also forming - with people I am less inclined to socialise with - I will steer the two groups apart 'Oh but I wanted to go somewhere I could eat'. I know this makes me a pretty bad person. More recently I have been able to be more upfront, and tell people I will 'see how it pans out'. If the group gets too big - which typically I can't deal with - then I will bow out. TLDR - It's a minefield peoples.

partyboat1586 6y ago
It doesn't make you a bad person it makes you a good leader. You anticipated a bad social situation and smoothly avoided it making things better for everyone.
- royletron 6y ago
  I feel like I need you to redo my CV! Thanks.

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bergstromm466 6y ago

A concept that changed my life is the concept of 'emotional slavery' used in Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication theory (NVC). He teaches that others are not always responsible for our feelings, and that we often feel the way we feel because an important universal human need is not met. Yet we are not taught to be aware of these feelings. He says that in our modern culture it's common for 1) men to be taught to deny their feelings and 2) women to be taught to deny their needs. By listening to his talks and his audiobooks and using the definitions, frameworks and spiritual ideas behind NVC, I started to become more aware of the strategies I came to use, and the potential for evolving those. Rosenberg believes that the adoption of NVC comes in three steps that we can all go through once we start applying his ideas. It starts with 1) 'emotional slavery' - where we are unaware of how we blame everything on others and make them wrong for what they do. Second we go through the 'obnoxious phase' where we feel angry when we become aware of our slavery ways, and where we realize that we might have been stuck in various strategies where we also thought we were responsible for others' feelings and needs. We are angry because we want that to change. Lastly comes 'emotional liberation', where we are learning to better understand our feelings and unmet needs and where we can start asking for what we want. I practiced NVC together with my ex-partner, and in my eyes we both grew our self-awareness enourmously.

agumonkey 6y ago

I suffered from this in way I can barely explain. Recently I came to a place where I thought that 'if' you live your life like an adventure where anything you do has to be very exciting, than a yes means you really want to do, not just a 'why not' but something that tickles your soul. And a no was the reflection of that, "I could come, and do that, but it will be boring in a way and I'll only be a ghost which would be a shame for my existence and yours". Kinda like a contrast amplifier to filter out the noise in the middle. Well now that I think of it.. it's a bit like analog vs binary. ps: it may sound maniacal to always strive for deep excitement, but you can suffer from the dullness of things you don't enjoy .. you lose yourself seriously and socially people start to see you as the dull thing making half smiles. It's a 10fold loss at every stages.

galfarragem 6y ago
Derek Sivers says exactly that: https://sive.rs/hellyeah https://sive.rs/hellyeah
- agumonkey 6y ago
  Thanks, it's also reminiscent with Bukowsky 'do not try'
amelius 6y ago
With that attitude, how do you convince yourself to do chores such as cleaning the house, or writing that boring glue-logic that your boss asked you to implement? I think the only way these tasks can be made exciting would be to build a cleaning robot or write a "glue-logic compiler". But these approaches would probably get you divorced or fired.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  I was talking about interpersonal relationships mostly. For work I can't answer much, depending on the context, a job is a job, you signed for it, if the boss respects you and it's important for it to be done then I'd have no issue personally. If the job is disrespectful and not important I'd say no and do something else for the company. For chores.. that's up to you if want to live in filth. It's hygiene, nobody wants to do it, but it makes the rest (the things that you really like) a lot nicer.

taurath 6y ago

Note that people pleasing is often a side effect of trauma and early relationship. Not that being nice is bad, but when you can’t put up and boundaries or are anxious about saying no that can often be a good indicator. Certainly not for everyone, but it would’ve been helpful for me to hear.

taurath 6y ago
Early relationship trouble or attachment problems

darepublic 6y ago

As the song says: "How can people be so heartless? Easy to be hard, easy to say no." Also, situationally: "How can people be so stupid? Easy to relent, easy to say yes"

patwalls 6y ago

https://starterstory.com/how-to-say-no https://starterstory.com/how-to-say-no

slowwriter 6y ago

Clicks article on how to say no. Is asked to say yes to cookies and such. Clicks Decline just for the fun of it. Article is presented in glorious unstyled Times new Roman.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

I had to say no to a busy-work position this week. And I am a people pleaser. What I did frame it to my manager as saying ‘yes’ to my current work-state, which everyone agreed was going really well. Don’t want to mess up a good thing :)

tmaly 6y ago

I like the line from @sivers "Hell yes or no" As you get older, your time becomes gold. You really have to focus on what is really most important to you.

DomenicoMazza 6y ago

Yes we need to have boundaries but a part of me thinks the popularity of 'not being a people pleaser' is in the label 'people pleaser' and its negative connotation. I set boundaries and listen to my needs but also make a habit of doing good things for others... not for my own self-agrandising or relieving myself of guilt but to set the EXAMPLE of what is good and how I would like to be treated—I don't really care about people's perception of me unless it has some logical argument to it and a lesson in it. Today I felt like getting in touch with people I haven't caught up with in a while and it was great.. it's part of my character.. I like to feel connected. I am upset by the number of transnational people out there that only hold space for you (well try to hold space) when they need you. In short.. understanding your boundaries is good.. BUT making a habit of not being a label.. a perception that sharing your goodness is some wicked thing that saps you of energy.. maybe think carefully if a boundary is being crossed or not first. Some people do gain pleasure from doing good for others. I've certainly learned from going too far with kindness for my perception but that's how you find your boundary and way to being truly sincere.

sethammons 6y ago

Let’s say your problem is time: you agree to too much. I struggle with the balance of helping others and getting my own stuff done. My stuff gets done, but may take longer than I would like. At work yesterday, I was helping some other teams and saw they were going down the wrong path. I had, at this point, already told them I had to stop helping to get my own stuff done. But I couldn’t just let them waste hours doing the wrong thing when I popped back into slack during lunch. Queue my need to help, and I was reengaged to avert lots of wasted time on a time sensitive issue. Now I’m a bit behind today. My manager would likely say to let them worry about, do my stuff. But that feels wrong to not support others where you can. This is my “saying no” problem.

spdionis 6y ago
You are effectively "saying no" to your manager. In your estimation helping your colleagues is more impactful to the company than doing your current task. I don't think there's anything wrong with the attitude. The manager's intention is probably to help you shield yourself from unwanted help requests. But if you actually think you should help that team, then do it!

waylandsmithers 6y ago

I'm curious about what people think of a "second-request" kind of strategy I have at work: Sometimes when I get asked to do something I feel is unreasonable, unwarranted, or unnecessary (and it's not something like, there's a fire in the conference room and I'm trapped, please help), I'll totally ignore it, but if they ask a second time, I'll just do it. Very often they either forget, or just do it themselves before coming back, confirming that it was either unnecessary or they didn't need me to do the thing in the first place. If they do come back, it's easy to come into the plausible deniability and "Oh sorry I forgot! I'm on it." And then maybe guilt them with "I was caught up in ${task that actually is part of my job}."

toast0 6y ago
That strategy worked well for me, although I wasn't actually trying to ignore the requests. I just got a lot of requests and wasn't organized about them, so some things fell through the cracks. That said, I would push back on things that I was definitely not going to do. For some things, that's person A can do this; for others that's if you can find someone to do this, ok; for some it's I'm not going to do this unless my manager or the CEO personally asks me to; for others it's I won't do this, and I won't deploy it, and I'll unmerge it if it's done by someone else. And always try to give people an idea of when to remind me if I haven't done it.

momokoko 6y ago

The whole make yourself happy first mentality is a bizarre side effect of therapy. Therapists have one client. Not the client’s family, friends, coworkers, and community. Because of that much of the advice therapist give benefits the client at the expense of everyone else. This creates a toxic environment when you have a large percentage of any group going to therapy and practicing me first techniques. I wonder if there is a way to align therapist goals with the greater good as opposed to the single client. Much how we have made changes to help doctors care for the long term physical health of a patient over a short term fix.

epicide 6y ago
Not all therapy works that way. For a lot of people seeking therapy, their issues do start with a personal sense of lacking. Starting with helping them to love themselves first makes sense. If someone goes to a therapist with narcissistic tendencies or anger issues, I would expect less of the "me first" approach.
- citrate05 6y ago
  I’d actually go so far as to say that I’m not familiar with any legitimate therapeutic approach that is not concerned with how the patient treats others. I’ve definitely read self-help books that seemed to be advocating for narcissistic behavior, but they weren’t written by mainstream psychologists or therapists.
citrate05 6y ago
I’d be curious to hear a specific example of the toxic or self-centered behavior you’re referring to, since this is not at all my experience.
jupiter90000 6y ago
I'm not so sure if it is a side effect of therapy? At least in the modern capitalist world, people seem to be pretty 'me first' whether they've done therapy or not. Take America, where we refuse to have significant social safety net. I don't think this is because everyone started doing therapy...

calebm 6y ago

If you have to be told how to say no, you're still just following.

yt-sdb 6y ago

> Lue says the soft no should be only about three sentences long. A common mistake, she says, is giving too much of an explanation or being over-apologetic. I used to over-explain in these situations. The advice that finally changed my behavior was this: only explain yourself if you're willing to negotiate, if new information might actually change your answer. Otherwise, the reason is usually irrelevant, and you only open yourself up to a discussion.

n_io 6y ago

I think the biggest thing for me, which wasn’t covered in this article, was in understanding that even by saying yes all the time you are NOT guaranteed to please or make the other party happy. This is important to understand because, speaking for myself, my emotional motivation to please people stems from my primary desire to avoid emotional tension. In understanding that even by sacrificing my own desire I’m in no way guaranteeing that outcome was a game changer for me. Furthermore, avoiding these negative emotions can make things worse or generate more of the emotion I was trying to avoid, in the long run.

hcrean 6y ago

When there is something I don't want to do, I think of what Billy Butcher would say. Sadly we can't be that direct in most of life, but the thought is normally there.

pessimizer 6y ago

If you're a people-pleaser, don't ever do what this article is calling a "soft no." It's proposing this as a compromise between a "hard no" and a yes, but there's no benefit in being compromised here. The more practice you get with your "hard no," the better you'll get at it. Eventually you'll have to pull back because you're finding it too easy to say no. That's when you know you're cured. A "soft no" given to an assertive person just means "I'm telling you what's keeping me from saying yes, if you solve it, it's a yes." You will get talked into saying "yes" every time you speak to a person with social skills, and your "soft no" will only stand with people who are shy or unassertive, regardless of the merit of the requests. It'll inevitably lead to getting used by the people who have the least consideration for other people's time, and who always push as a general policy. Just say "no." You don't have to say it quickly; wait to hear the person's case if you need to, but at the point when you mean "no," say "no." If you honestly feel you need to be convinced, or you need solutions to obstructions that are keeping you from agreeing, just say so, but don't confuse that with a "no."

tclancy 6y ago
Yeah, that was the one weird bit to me. I definitely am one of these people and have only figured it out (somewhat) after 40 years. The soft No is the last thing you want to do. It's like playing cards (I hate to be so transactional about it) with yours on the table.
dredmorbius 6y ago
I start with a soft no. Assholes discover just how close to that the hard no lies. When dealing with reasonable and perceptive people, a soft no is sufficient and provides social lubricant. Oh: my lifetime supply of fucks to give ran out a decade back. No, I'm not gratuitously rude (anything but). But I meet gratuitous rudeness with same. In the long run it reduces need to do so.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  Yes, this is a good strategy when you already have the skill to say "no". But for someone who just learns it, "soft no" means having to say "no" twice, when they barely can say it once.

flemhans 6y ago

As a "people pleaser" I for one didn't click with this article. Yes, I do say yes to most every one request one asks me to. Including favours people might ask me to do. I do what ever people ask, and it's a blissful joy. I'm happy to service and I'm happy to have so many friends.

flemhans 6y ago
Edit; Some people asked and yes I'm "super-rich". :P

hi41 6y ago

I have a people pleaser throughout my life. As a small kid I was very timid and had social anxiety. As an adult, I still remain timid and have difficulty expressing my opinions. My people pleaser attitude had a detrimental effect on my software career. I said yes to all the production support tasks and spent so much time on it that I no longer got project coding work. I lost my software developer job. I have taken up a production support job yo pay the bills. My dreams died with it. I took an interim java coder job. I couldn’t code even one line.

known 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys is better