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The whole Tibet situation is such a horrible one. From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire cultur

The whole Tibet situation is such a horrible one. From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. Plus, China isn't going to be impressed when the old Imperial continent with 140 ex-colonies and the current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases are going to lecture them about occupying a territory. For China Tibet is a buffer between India and them and it is where most of their water comes from, so they're never going to let any foreign entity control it. Seems out of the question. I live in a European area that was 'assimilated' into a bigger country and forced to use their language and customs. This was over 150 years ago for my area now. And most people don't remember it and just go with the flow of the country they are born in. I hope for all Tibetans that there will be some sense of regional pride remaining (and allowed) as they find a way to live as part of China.

zigzagzog 6y ago
We don't say anything because we'd have to admit that the same process is also happening to western nations through policies of multiculturalism and mass migration.
baxterprong 6y ago
I think we don't confront China because we'd have to admit that the same process of cultural annihilation is also happening to western nations through multiculturalism and mass migration.
coldtea 6y ago
>From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. Yeah, kinda like Hawaii. (Not to mention Native Americans' lands, civilization, and culture). Or, well, Mexico. Sure, it's, "whataboutism". Which is an improvement on the our-shit-doesn't-smell-besides-that-was-back-a-while-ago-so-we-get-to-keep-it-now "Western perspective". Or the "sure-we-can-get-to-our-shady-stuff-but-at-some-other-time-now-let's-talk-as-if-only-those-bad-countries-do-such-things". >Plus, China isn't going to be impressed when the old Imperial continent with 140 ex-colonies and the current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases are going to lecture them about occupying a territory. Yeah, that's the problem I'm talking about. >For China Tibet is a buffer between India and them and it is where most of their water comes from, so they're never going to let any foreign entity control it. Seems out of the question. Yes. Plus they have old claims to the area (as valid as a claim can be). Populations whose countries have wars and bases and proxy states and/or colonies all over the world (where they have absolutely no place to be), are in a "glass house" place to throw stones at what China does in its immediate borders...
- yters 6y ago
  so if a reformed mob boss sees other mobsters extorting people, he cannot step in and stop them because he did the same thing in the past? every culture has done horrible things in the past. does that mean no one should try to prevent modern crimes against humanity? i really don't understand this kind of ethical reasoning, just sounds like pious excuses to sit on our hands
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    It sounds like deflection, false equivalency and whataboutism. Discussions about the CCP frequently devolve into these tropes.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >so if a reformed mob boss sees other mobsters extorting people, he cannot step in and stop them because he did the same thing in the past? Reformed? LOL. >i really don't understand this kind of ethical reasoning, just sounds like pious excuses to sit on our hands It's the ethical imperative of: - not being a hypocrite, - being the change you want to see in the world, and putting your house in order first - the old-mob-boss not getting to keep his illegal riches (not to mention his old ways) and claim to be reformed, - and not using the plights of "poor X" as an excuse to attack their opressor, when you don't really care about poor X, you have opressed and are still opressing others all over the world, and you have no problems with other opressors of third parties if they are allies... Without self-reflection and equal corrective moves on the finger-pointing side, the finger-pointing at China is merely used as a political weapon to justify aggression and pressure against them in the ongoing trade/influence war. As for the finger pointers, those higher-up cultivate this for this exact purpose (as popular support for their hawkish plans), and the masses just point at the "enemy of the day" as they are conditioned... As for the "pious excuses to sit on our hands" that's what happens anyway, nobody is actually doing anything. The one's that do are those who control armies and policy - and those have their own agendas, could not give less fucks for justice for Tibet.
    - Ericson2314 6y ago
yters 6y ago
we call out all our own flaws from the past and now reject colonialism additionally, our country was founded by people escaping religious persecution why are not right to call out others currently making our mistakes from the past?
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > now reject colonialism Nah, we just changed how it's done.
  - yters 6y ago
    maybe we do something else bad now, but we no longer do the particular thing known as colonialism
    - free_rms 6y ago
      Afghanistan, Iraq? And that's before we get into proxy wars.
      - yenwodyah 6y ago
        Neither of those countries are being colonized, by any definition of the word.
        NegativeLatency 6y ago
        https://www.wordnik.com/words/colonized https://www.wordnik.com/words/colonized > adjective politically ruled by citizens of another country. Seems to fit this definition
        kube-system 6y ago
        16 years ago, one of those countries met that definition for a period of 14 months.
jariel 6y ago
"But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff." 20 years ago we were. Tibet was a little bit like BLM, all over Hollywood, in pop culture. The Dalai Lama was somewhat of a figure. Then China told Americans to 'shut their mouths' and they did. This is a tiny example of the tremendous power of that machine, it really cannot be ignored but I think we probably will. Edit: some notes [1] [2] [1] https://psmag.com/news/what-ever-happened-to-hollywoods-free-tibet-rallying-cry https://psmag.com/news/what-ever-happened-to-hollywoods-free... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/cause-hollywood-forgot-free-tibet-movement-fizzled/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/cause-hollywood-forgot-f... I'll put money that the next pres. will probably be Joe Biden and he will never say the word 'Tibet' publicly. And who's 'free'?
- platinumrad 6y ago
  The US government has exerted influence and control over Hollywood and pop culture for decades but it's so pervasive that you've just taken it for granted. Now you're seeing a foreign government to the same, at a much smaller scale and to a much smaller degree and you're hysterically suggesting that your freedom is being taken away by "the tremendous power of that machine". How do you think the rest of the world feels about having American culture shoved down their throats via every conceivable medium? https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hollywood-cia-washington-dc-films-fbi-24-intervening-close-relationship-a7918191.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hollywood-cia-washingto... https://www.valuewalk.com/2014/08/hollywood-funding/ https://www.valuewalk.com/2014/08/hollywood-funding/
  - throwmeaway_pls 6y ago
    I think silencing criticism of human rights abuses is bad. Your whataboutism does not cut it here.
    - platinumrad 6y ago
      Call it "whataboutism" if you must, but I think it's strange and counterproductive to ignore the elephant in the room when it comes to influence and control over popular media.
fspeech 6y ago
This vlogger had extensive travel in Tibet. Just one person's glimpse of what Han-Tibetan interaction looks like: https://m.youtube.com/c/环华十年/videos?disable_polymer=true&itct=CBIQ8JMBGAEiEwiExLqUhv3rAhWIpsQKHanfAfc%3D https://m.youtube.com/c/环华十年/videos?disable_polymer=true&itc... The most recent episodes about Tibet were about a year ago so one has to really scroll down to get to it.
dcolkitt 6y ago
The one silver lining is that Bhutan remains free and independent and intensely preserves its traditional culture. Its language, religion, and culture aren't exactly Tibetan, but they're fairly contiguous. About roughly equal to the difference between Spain and Portugal.
- jariel 6y ago
  India. At least some number of Tibetans could feasibly find refuge there.
  - actuator 6y ago
    Along with hosting Dalai Lama, they have a government in exile there as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration
  - crucialfelix 6y ago
    There are many generations of tibetans in India. Even down south in Mysore there are large settlements and monasteries.
- 1024core 6y ago
  > The one silver lining is that Bhutan remains free and independent ... thanks to their defence agreement with India. Had that not been in place, China would have long occupied Bhutan too.
api 6y ago
It's similar to our reluctance to criticize Saudi Arabia even when there are links between their upper crust and the largest terror attack ever on American soil. Saudi Arabia is still one of the largest oil spigots with the easiest ability to turn that spigot on and off and therefore set global oil prices, so we don't dare offend them.
- dahdum 6y ago
  US policy has been moving towards energy independence from Bush, Obama, and through Trump. We're pretty much there now, OPEC can't drive up prices without US shale producers ramping up production, sharply limiting their control.
  - eternalban 6y ago
    Our arrangements with the House of Saud include the extremely sensitive matter of reserve status of US Dollar. Control over Persian Gulf — a matter that includes other parties not included in the US-Saudi strategic agreements — is energy related: it is not USA who is dependent on Persian Gulf energy, but near peer challengers, such as China, Japan, and possibly EU.
  - sitkack 6y ago
    Jimmy Carter would like a word with you.
    - yowlingcat 6y ago
      What would those words be?
      - sitkack 6y ago
        https://www.masterresource.org/carter-jimmy/jimmy-carter-was-right/ https://www.masterresource.org/carter-jimmy/jimmy-carter-was... https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/03/energy-independence-a-short-history/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/03/energy-independence-a-s...
chillacy 6y ago
I was reading an account from the Roman Empire about parents begrudgingly using the imperial language while their kids grew up completely “Roman”. Then I reflected that if you go back far enough we all have a great^N parent who was in this situation. Someone else in their reply mentioned Hawaii and the US but even Hawaii was unified by force by King Kamehameha. I’ve come to an uneasy acceptance of the fact that we’re all the conquerors and the conquered.
- chmod600 6y ago
  "I’ve come to an uneasy acceptance of the fact that we’re all the conquerors and the conquered." We all have to accept the past. We don't need to accept that the future will be the same. There are many ways that different areas and cultures can share an assimilate. Trade, travel, multilingualism, federations, mutually-agreed democratic annexation, shared constitutions, diplomacy, immigration, intermarriage, etc. Coercion is not the only option.
  - jtdev 6y ago
    One of my favorite quotes (don’t know the source): “we can either protect the past from the future, or protect the future from the past”.
  - platinumrad 6y ago
    It's interesting that you mention immigration and intermarriage because if your press Tibetan and Uighur activists, or look at their more private communications rather than their press releases, miscegenation is frequently at the forefront of their concerns (as tends to be the case when a predominantly male group perceives itself to be losing status, e.g. poorer white men in the west). Outside of the wealthy cosmopolitan west, views toward intermarriage tend to be extremely illiberal.
  - bobbyz 6y ago
    Just another way for criminals to excuse themselves of their crimes. Imagine if you said this to a black person in the context of slavery
  - 6y ago
reaperducer 6y ago
But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. I happily pay more for things not made in China, when I can. When I can buy an iPhone that's not made in China, I'll buy it. Even if it means a downgrade. Several of my family members buy as many vintage and second-hand goods as they can. Not to be hipsters (are hipsters still a thing anymore?), but because they do not want to support China.
- jtdev 6y ago
  I too go to great lengths to avoid purchasing Chinese made products. It seems that manufacturers and sellers are now trying to hide country of origin labeling, which is absolutely infuriating.
- tasogare 6y ago
  Some iPhone are made in India. Are they available outside it, that’s the real question.
- agentdrtran 6y ago
  That's great, but we can't get out of the trade situation we're in with personal choices.
- Balgair 6y ago
  AFAIK Samsung makes most of their phones in Vietnam. The batteries are mostly made in China though. Still, it doesn't have to be 100% or 0% made in China. 5% is better than 95%. Shades of grey exist, and that is ok. But earnestly trying to do better is what matters.
- novok 6y ago
  Personal morality-based boycotts do nothing, you need to out compete China.
smithza 6y ago
> But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. Thinking of Lebron James who hypocritically spoke up about BLM and not about human rights abuses in China[1]. We cannot place our hopes in capitalism to deal with these human-rights atrocities, even though there is much the NBA could do to use their financial power to influence the region and demand change. MLK would use boycotts to force racist businesses to grapple with losing the black people's dollar if they did not stand up for justice. We can still learn from this; the Western gov'ts are not the only players in this game. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/lebron-james-nba-players-told-move-china-boycott-1528069 https://www.newsweek.com/lebron-james-nba-players-told-move-...
- platinumrad 6y ago
  It's hypocritical to focus on issues in your own country?
  - smithza 6y ago
    The BLM movement is important; I have no interest in distracting from this problem. Lebron was explicitly asked about the CCP and their human-rights abuses after an NBA manager unpopularly criticized the CCP. The NBA would rather not talk about the CCP and the manager was effectively shamed for doing so. Capitalism cannot look past the $$$. China makes up 10% of NBA revenue [1] [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nba-needs-china-revenue-growth-leverage-170102327.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nba-needs-china-revenue-growt...
    - platinumrad 6y ago
      It's absolutely reasonable for NBA players to not want to comment on complicated issues that are outside of the scope of their political interests[1][2]. It would be nice to see the same humility in other aspects of our public discourse. [1] https://www.radio.com/sports/nba/former-nba-star-anti-china-propaganda-similar-to-iraq-war https://www.radio.com/sports/nba/former-nba-star-anti-china-... [2] https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2019/10/12/nba-players-china-free-speech-hong-kong-oppression/3944832002/ https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2019/10/12/nb...
rayiner 6y ago
It feels wrong but it’s also how pretty much every culture got to be the way it is. Why do I have an Arabic last name even though I was born 3,000 miles away from the Middle East? Because 800 years ago an Islamic empire conquered India and Bangladesh. Why do Bangladeshis wear powdered wigs in court? Because the British conquered them 500 years after that. The British themselves are the product of numerous waves of conquest: Angles conquering the Pictish, Saxons conquering the Angles, Normans conquering who by now were Anglo-Saxons.
- maxbond 6y ago
  Past wrongs do not justify present wrongs. It is not wrong for individuals to choose to assimilate. The deliberate and systematic destruction of other cultures - which China is engaged in on multiple fronts - is wrong.
  - Fauntleroy 6y ago
    I think the point here is, what are you going to do about it? This is unfortunately how humanity operates. It disgusts me but history shows that it is nigh inevitable.
    - maxbond 6y ago
      I don't have the answers that I would wish, but refusing to give up on humanity is a good place to start. History is prologue, not destiny.
      - Fauntleroy 6y ago
        For what it's worth, there's been a lot of progress!
    - sn9 6y ago
      The international community banding together to impose extremely strong economic sanctions on countries with human rights abuses commensurate with the severity and magnitude of the offenses?
golergka 6y ago
> current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases You make it sound as if they were a part of aggressive expansion and colonisation, which is a bit misleading. Vast majority of US military bases are in NATO countries that were very enthusiastic about outsourcing protection from the soviet threat.
- dhagz 6y ago
  It's definitely not colonization, but I'd still say it's aggressive expansion. We just happened to make people think it was a good thing. Looking back now, I'm not so sure it was the net good it was sold as.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    the net good is that the USSR didn't overrun Europe after WW2 and they could have easily if the US hadn't set up camp. It may have even still happened without the atomic bomb as a deterrent.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  There are some bases that cause a lot of friction however. Behaving like they can do what they like is not in the US’s best interest. The latest rape saga in the Philippines comes to mind and the damage done by the 1990s rape of a child in Okinawa and it’s aftermath have damaged the US image. Also behaving like they are above the law, there was the appalling behaviour of the US military when a family member of a serviceman in the UK drove on the wrong side of the road, killing someone, then claiming diplomatic immunity to fly home. The base in Saudi has been the justification for some horrendous acts too. I’m not sure how you come up with a way of respecting people and their local laws whilst also having bases in places like Saudi, but the US can do better.
  - novok 6y ago
    Crimes that number in the dozens of people and is disliked / prosecuted by the USA is a candle compared to the sun of China's concentration camps.
PedroBatista 6y ago
I hope they have the tenacity to survive and resist and NEVER get conformed to live as part of China. "China" is a vicious inhumane enemy, nobody in this World is innocent but there are some more innocent that others and the rhetoric of others being "bad" is no excuse for anything.
dinht 6y ago
Language and customs are valued differently between Europe and East Asia, and one of the reason is poverty. I'll take Vietnam as an example as I grew there and now live in Europe. We (the majority ethnics) do appreciate the cultures from minor ethics In fact, the minor ethnics regions have been a popular destination for young generation to get away from the urban life. On the other hands, we cannot have a blind eyes on the taboos that comes from isolation, illiteracy and poverty. We're talking about little women rights, child labor, child marriage. I'm not saying the same problems are in Tibet, but it wouldn't surprise if there other things going than what you're seeing from an outsider/tourist eyes, because the context is the same: high illiteracy rate and isolation. Education is one way out. China is clearly having a strong take on this approach, but let's hope they do know how to preserve the culture as well.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  It's not education though or a strong approach. They are literally annihilating the Tibetan culture and ways of life and attempting to force them to supplant it with Chinese culture and ways trying to convince them it is far superior to Tibetan culture.
cafard 6y ago
A book for your consideration: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/china-marches-west-peter-c-perdue/1117249343;jsessionid=0DE9163ECB10721D0B1FADC6621662A7.prodny_store01-atgap04?ean=9780674057432 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/china-marches-west-peter-c-... .
nashashmi 6y ago
> From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. What China is doing is progressive system of genocide. They borrowed USSR's system of multiple nationalities, identified different ethnicities, and now are trying to wipe out the Uighurs by merging them into Han. It is only a matter of time till they start doing this with whole bunch of other groups. The Uighurs are seen as threats because of their resistance to adopting majority Chinese culture and because of their 1600 year old desire for self-rule.
blackrock 6y ago
LOL. Are you going to cry a river for all the Native Americans that got their lives and culture extinguished, to make way for the master white race to dominate the United States? Did you know that the Sioux are actively protesting in South Dakota right now, for the very thing that you are preaching here? Are you going to even lift a finger to support them? I doubt it. Hence, you’re just being a hypocrite
NotSammyHagar 6y ago
We can say things against China. China shouldn't do this. Plenty of companies don't operate in China, regardless of the money. Google has struggled with this. Apple surrendered and makes phones there and sells them. Disney is trying to surrender with Mulan, but apparently even those they cow-towed to them in extreme ways (in Mulan the movie they 'thank' the help of the Chinese authorities in some of the places that have the Uighur camps! They literally thank them. The enormous sums these companies believe they will earn in China, the all mighty growth, that overwhelms their ability to consider the implications.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pldr1234 6y ago
Disgusting. From our Western perspective? No. From the general perspective of any culture that values human life. Your words are an empty restatement that mirrors what most officially sanctioned Chinese media reports tell us: That we should not/legally cannot/morally cannot oppose or interfere with these atrocities. I urge HN readers to very carefully judge empty statements such as the GP, because while it doesn't seem like it, it is actually attempting to persuade you to accept that absolutely nothing can be done. And that is utterly wrong.

zigzagzog 6y ago

We don't say anything because we'd have to admit that the same process is also happening to western nations through policies of multiculturalism and mass migration.

baxterprong 6y ago

I think we don't confront China because we'd have to admit that the same process of cultural annihilation is also happening to western nations through multiculturalism and mass migration.

coldtea 6y ago

>From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. Yeah, kinda like Hawaii. (Not to mention Native Americans' lands, civilization, and culture). Or, well, Mexico. Sure, it's, "whataboutism". Which is an improvement on the our-shit-doesn't-smell-besides-that-was-back-a-while-ago-so-we-get-to-keep-it-now "Western perspective". Or the "sure-we-can-get-to-our-shady-stuff-but-at-some-other-time-now-let's-talk-as-if-only-those-bad-countries-do-such-things". >Plus, China isn't going to be impressed when the old Imperial continent with 140 ex-colonies and the current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases are going to lecture them about occupying a territory. Yeah, that's the problem I'm talking about. >For China Tibet is a buffer between India and them and it is where most of their water comes from, so they're never going to let any foreign entity control it. Seems out of the question. Yes. Plus they have old claims to the area (as valid as a claim can be). Populations whose countries have wars and bases and proxy states and/or colonies all over the world (where they have absolutely no place to be), are in a "glass house" place to throw stones at what China does in its immediate borders...

yters 6y ago
so if a reformed mob boss sees other mobsters extorting people, he cannot step in and stop them because he did the same thing in the past? every culture has done horrible things in the past. does that mean no one should try to prevent modern crimes against humanity? i really don't understand this kind of ethical reasoning, just sounds like pious excuses to sit on our hands
- aww_dang 6y ago
  It sounds like deflection, false equivalency and whataboutism. Discussions about the CCP frequently devolve into these tropes.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >so if a reformed mob boss sees other mobsters extorting people, he cannot step in and stop them because he did the same thing in the past? Reformed? LOL. >i really don't understand this kind of ethical reasoning, just sounds like pious excuses to sit on our hands It's the ethical imperative of: - not being a hypocrite, - being the change you want to see in the world, and putting your house in order first - the old-mob-boss not getting to keep his illegal riches (not to mention his old ways) and claim to be reformed, - and not using the plights of "poor X" as an excuse to attack their opressor, when you don't really care about poor X, you have opressed and are still opressing others all over the world, and you have no problems with other opressors of third parties if they are allies... Without self-reflection and equal corrective moves on the finger-pointing side, the finger-pointing at China is merely used as a political weapon to justify aggression and pressure against them in the ongoing trade/influence war. As for the finger pointers, those higher-up cultivate this for this exact purpose (as popular support for their hawkish plans), and the masses just point at the "enemy of the day" as they are conditioned... As for the "pious excuses to sit on our hands" that's what happens anyway, nobody is actually doing anything. The one's that do are those who control armies and policy - and those have their own agendas, could not give less fucks for justice for Tibet.
  - Ericson2314 6y ago

yters 6y ago

we call out all our own flaws from the past and now reject colonialism additionally, our country was founded by people escaping religious persecution why are not right to call out others currently making our mistakes from the past?

ceejayoz 6y ago
> now reject colonialism Nah, we just changed how it's done.
- yters 6y ago
  maybe we do something else bad now, but we no longer do the particular thing known as colonialism
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Afghanistan, Iraq? And that's before we get into proxy wars.
    - yenwodyah 6y ago
      Neither of those countries are being colonized, by any definition of the word.
      - NegativeLatency 6y ago
        https://www.wordnik.com/words/colonized https://www.wordnik.com/words/colonized > adjective politically ruled by citizens of another country. Seems to fit this definition
        kube-system 6y ago
        16 years ago, one of those countries met that definition for a period of 14 months.

jariel 6y ago

"But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff." 20 years ago we were. Tibet was a little bit like BLM, all over Hollywood, in pop culture. The Dalai Lama was somewhat of a figure. Then China told Americans to 'shut their mouths' and they did. This is a tiny example of the tremendous power of that machine, it really cannot be ignored but I think we probably will. Edit: some notes [1] [2] [1] https://psmag.com/news/what-ever-happened-to-hollywoods-free-tibet-rallying-cry https://psmag.com/news/what-ever-happened-to-hollywoods-free... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/cause-hollywood-forgot-free-tibet-movement-fizzled/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/cause-hollywood-forgot-f... I'll put money that the next pres. will probably be Joe Biden and he will never say the word 'Tibet' publicly. And who's 'free'?

platinumrad 6y ago
The US government has exerted influence and control over Hollywood and pop culture for decades but it's so pervasive that you've just taken it for granted. Now you're seeing a foreign government to the same, at a much smaller scale and to a much smaller degree and you're hysterically suggesting that your freedom is being taken away by "the tremendous power of that machine". How do you think the rest of the world feels about having American culture shoved down their throats via every conceivable medium? https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hollywood-cia-washington-dc-films-fbi-24-intervening-close-relationship-a7918191.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hollywood-cia-washingto... https://www.valuewalk.com/2014/08/hollywood-funding/ https://www.valuewalk.com/2014/08/hollywood-funding/
- throwmeaway_pls 6y ago
  I think silencing criticism of human rights abuses is bad. Your whataboutism does not cut it here.
  - platinumrad 6y ago
    Call it "whataboutism" if you must, but I think it's strange and counterproductive to ignore the elephant in the room when it comes to influence and control over popular media.

fspeech 6y ago

This vlogger had extensive travel in Tibet. Just one person's glimpse of what Han-Tibetan interaction looks like: https://m.youtube.com/c/环华十年/videos?disable_polymer=true&itct=CBIQ8JMBGAEiEwiExLqUhv3rAhWIpsQKHanfAfc%3D https://m.youtube.com/c/环华十年/videos?disable_polymer=true&itc... The most recent episodes about Tibet were about a year ago so one has to really scroll down to get to it.

dcolkitt 6y ago

The one silver lining is that Bhutan remains free and independent and intensely preserves its traditional culture. Its language, religion, and culture aren't exactly Tibetan, but they're fairly contiguous. About roughly equal to the difference between Spain and Portugal.

jariel 6y ago
India. At least some number of Tibetans could feasibly find refuge there.
- actuator 6y ago
  Along with hosting Dalai Lama, they have a government in exile there as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration
- crucialfelix 6y ago
  There are many generations of tibetans in India. Even down south in Mysore there are large settlements and monasteries.
1024core 6y ago
> The one silver lining is that Bhutan remains free and independent ... thanks to their defence agreement with India. Had that not been in place, China would have long occupied Bhutan too.

api 6y ago

It's similar to our reluctance to criticize Saudi Arabia even when there are links between their upper crust and the largest terror attack ever on American soil. Saudi Arabia is still one of the largest oil spigots with the easiest ability to turn that spigot on and off and therefore set global oil prices, so we don't dare offend them.

dahdum 6y ago
US policy has been moving towards energy independence from Bush, Obama, and through Trump. We're pretty much there now, OPEC can't drive up prices without US shale producers ramping up production, sharply limiting their control.
- eternalban 6y ago
  Our arrangements with the House of Saud include the extremely sensitive matter of reserve status of US Dollar. Control over Persian Gulf — a matter that includes other parties not included in the US-Saudi strategic agreements — is energy related: it is not USA who is dependent on Persian Gulf energy, but near peer challengers, such as China, Japan, and possibly EU.
- sitkack 6y ago
  Jimmy Carter would like a word with you.
  - yowlingcat 6y ago
    What would those words be?
    - sitkack 6y ago
      https://www.masterresource.org/carter-jimmy/jimmy-carter-was-right/ https://www.masterresource.org/carter-jimmy/jimmy-carter-was... https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/03/energy-independence-a-short-history/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/03/energy-independence-a-s...

chillacy 6y ago

I was reading an account from the Roman Empire about parents begrudgingly using the imperial language while their kids grew up completely “Roman”. Then I reflected that if you go back far enough we all have a great^N parent who was in this situation. Someone else in their reply mentioned Hawaii and the US but even Hawaii was unified by force by King Kamehameha. I’ve come to an uneasy acceptance of the fact that we’re all the conquerors and the conquered.

chmod600 6y ago
"I’ve come to an uneasy acceptance of the fact that we’re all the conquerors and the conquered." We all have to accept the past. We don't need to accept that the future will be the same. There are many ways that different areas and cultures can share an assimilate. Trade, travel, multilingualism, federations, mutually-agreed democratic annexation, shared constitutions, diplomacy, immigration, intermarriage, etc. Coercion is not the only option.
- jtdev 6y ago
  One of my favorite quotes (don’t know the source): “we can either protect the past from the future, or protect the future from the past”.
- platinumrad 6y ago
  It's interesting that you mention immigration and intermarriage because if your press Tibetan and Uighur activists, or look at their more private communications rather than their press releases, miscegenation is frequently at the forefront of their concerns (as tends to be the case when a predominantly male group perceives itself to be losing status, e.g. poorer white men in the west). Outside of the wealthy cosmopolitan west, views toward intermarriage tend to be extremely illiberal.
- bobbyz 6y ago
  Just another way for criminals to excuse themselves of their crimes. Imagine if you said this to a black person in the context of slavery
- 6y ago

reaperducer 6y ago

But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. I happily pay more for things not made in China, when I can. When I can buy an iPhone that's not made in China, I'll buy it. Even if it means a downgrade. Several of my family members buy as many vintage and second-hand goods as they can. Not to be hipsters (are hipsters still a thing anymore?), but because they do not want to support China.

jtdev 6y ago
I too go to great lengths to avoid purchasing Chinese made products. It seems that manufacturers and sellers are now trying to hide country of origin labeling, which is absolutely infuriating.
tasogare 6y ago
Some iPhone are made in India. Are they available outside it, that’s the real question.
agentdrtran 6y ago
That's great, but we can't get out of the trade situation we're in with personal choices.
Balgair 6y ago
AFAIK Samsung makes most of their phones in Vietnam. The batteries are mostly made in China though. Still, it doesn't have to be 100% or 0% made in China. 5% is better than 95%. Shades of grey exist, and that is ok. But earnestly trying to do better is what matters.
novok 6y ago
Personal morality-based boycotts do nothing, you need to out compete China.

smithza 6y ago

> But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. Thinking of Lebron James who hypocritically spoke up about BLM and not about human rights abuses in China[1]. We cannot place our hopes in capitalism to deal with these human-rights atrocities, even though there is much the NBA could do to use their financial power to influence the region and demand change. MLK would use boycotts to force racist businesses to grapple with losing the black people's dollar if they did not stand up for justice. We can still learn from this; the Western gov'ts are not the only players in this game. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/lebron-james-nba-players-told-move-china-boycott-1528069 https://www.newsweek.com/lebron-james-nba-players-told-move-...

platinumrad 6y ago
It's hypocritical to focus on issues in your own country?
- smithza 6y ago
  The BLM movement is important; I have no interest in distracting from this problem. Lebron was explicitly asked about the CCP and their human-rights abuses after an NBA manager unpopularly criticized the CCP. The NBA would rather not talk about the CCP and the manager was effectively shamed for doing so. Capitalism cannot look past the $$$. China makes up 10% of NBA revenue [1] [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nba-needs-china-revenue-growth-leverage-170102327.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nba-needs-china-revenue-growt...
  - platinumrad 6y ago
    It's absolutely reasonable for NBA players to not want to comment on complicated issues that are outside of the scope of their political interests[1][2]. It would be nice to see the same humility in other aspects of our public discourse. [1] https://www.radio.com/sports/nba/former-nba-star-anti-china-propaganda-similar-to-iraq-war https://www.radio.com/sports/nba/former-nba-star-anti-china-... [2] https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2019/10/12/nba-players-china-free-speech-hong-kong-oppression/3944832002/ https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2019/10/12/nb...

rayiner 6y ago

It feels wrong but it’s also how pretty much every culture got to be the way it is. Why do I have an Arabic last name even though I was born 3,000 miles away from the Middle East? Because 800 years ago an Islamic empire conquered India and Bangladesh. Why do Bangladeshis wear powdered wigs in court? Because the British conquered them 500 years after that. The British themselves are the product of numerous waves of conquest: Angles conquering the Pictish, Saxons conquering the Angles, Normans conquering who by now were Anglo-Saxons.

maxbond 6y ago
Past wrongs do not justify present wrongs. It is not wrong for individuals to choose to assimilate. The deliberate and systematic destruction of other cultures - which China is engaged in on multiple fronts - is wrong.
- Fauntleroy 6y ago
  I think the point here is, what are you going to do about it? This is unfortunately how humanity operates. It disgusts me but history shows that it is nigh inevitable.
  - maxbond 6y ago
    I don't have the answers that I would wish, but refusing to give up on humanity is a good place to start. History is prologue, not destiny.
    - Fauntleroy 6y ago
      For what it's worth, there's been a lot of progress!
  - sn9 6y ago
    The international community banding together to impose extremely strong economic sanctions on countries with human rights abuses commensurate with the severity and magnitude of the offenses?

golergka 6y ago

> current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases You make it sound as if they were a part of aggressive expansion and colonisation, which is a bit misleading. Vast majority of US military bases are in NATO countries that were very enthusiastic about outsourcing protection from the soviet threat.

dhagz 6y ago
It's definitely not colonization, but I'd still say it's aggressive expansion. We just happened to make people think it was a good thing. Looking back now, I'm not so sure it was the net good it was sold as.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  the net good is that the USSR didn't overrun Europe after WW2 and they could have easily if the US hadn't set up camp. It may have even still happened without the atomic bomb as a deterrent.
lostlogin 6y ago
There are some bases that cause a lot of friction however. Behaving like they can do what they like is not in the US’s best interest. The latest rape saga in the Philippines comes to mind and the damage done by the 1990s rape of a child in Okinawa and it’s aftermath have damaged the US image. Also behaving like they are above the law, there was the appalling behaviour of the US military when a family member of a serviceman in the UK drove on the wrong side of the road, killing someone, then claiming diplomatic immunity to fly home. The base in Saudi has been the justification for some horrendous acts too. I’m not sure how you come up with a way of respecting people and their local laws whilst also having bases in places like Saudi, but the US can do better.
- novok 6y ago
  Crimes that number in the dozens of people and is disliked / prosecuted by the USA is a candle compared to the sun of China's concentration camps.

PedroBatista 6y ago

I hope they have the tenacity to survive and resist and NEVER get conformed to live as part of China. "China" is a vicious inhumane enemy, nobody in this World is innocent but there are some more innocent that others and the rhetoric of others being "bad" is no excuse for anything.

dinht 6y ago

Language and customs are valued differently between Europe and East Asia, and one of the reason is poverty. I'll take Vietnam as an example as I grew there and now live in Europe. We (the majority ethnics) do appreciate the cultures from minor ethics In fact, the minor ethnics regions have been a popular destination for young generation to get away from the urban life. On the other hands, we cannot have a blind eyes on the taboos that comes from isolation, illiteracy and poverty. We're talking about little women rights, child labor, child marriage. I'm not saying the same problems are in Tibet, but it wouldn't surprise if there other things going than what you're seeing from an outsider/tourist eyes, because the context is the same: high illiteracy rate and isolation. Education is one way out. China is clearly having a strong take on this approach, but let's hope they do know how to preserve the culture as well.

stjohnswarts 6y ago
It's not education though or a strong approach. They are literally annihilating the Tibetan culture and ways of life and attempting to force them to supplant it with Chinese culture and ways trying to convince them it is far superior to Tibetan culture.

cafard 6y ago

A book for your consideration: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/china-marches-west-peter-c-perdue/1117249343;jsessionid=0DE9163ECB10721D0B1FADC6621662A7.prodny_store01-atgap04?ean=9780674057432 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/china-marches-west-peter-c-... .

nashashmi 6y ago

> From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. What China is doing is progressive system of genocide. They borrowed USSR's system of multiple nationalities, identified different ethnicities, and now are trying to wipe out the Uighurs by merging them into Han. It is only a matter of time till they start doing this with whole bunch of other groups. The Uighurs are seen as threats because of their resistance to adopting majority Chinese culture and because of their 1600 year old desire for self-rule.

blackrock 6y ago

LOL. Are you going to cry a river for all the Native Americans that got their lives and culture extinguished, to make way for the master white race to dominate the United States? Did you know that the Sioux are actively protesting in South Dakota right now, for the very thing that you are preaching here? Are you going to even lift a finger to support them? I doubt it. Hence, you’re just being a hypocrite

NotSammyHagar 6y ago

We can say things against China. China shouldn't do this. Plenty of companies don't operate in China, regardless of the money. Google has struggled with this. Apple surrendered and makes phones there and sells them. Disney is trying to surrender with Mulan, but apparently even those they cow-towed to them in extreme ways (in Mulan the movie they 'thank' the help of the Chinese authorities in some of the places that have the Uighur camps! They literally thank them. The enormous sums these companies believe they will earn in China, the all mighty growth, that overwhelms their ability to consider the implications.

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pldr1234 6y ago

Disgusting. From our Western perspective? No. From the general perspective of any culture that values human life. Your words are an empty restatement that mirrors what most officially sanctioned Chinese media reports tell us: That we should not/legally cannot/morally cannot oppose or interfere with these atrocities. I urge HN readers to very carefully judge empty statements such as the GP, because while it doesn't seem like it, it is actually attempting to persuade you to accept that absolutely nothing can be done. And that is utterly wrong.