18 ms·

US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

252 points by dsavant 6y ago

SomeHacker44 6y ago
US Government just provided another case study in why we need to be able to side load apps.
- abc-xyz 6y ago
  Funny, I was thinking the exact opposite. It’s the perfect way to isolate China from the rest of the world, and unless they start going after allies then I’ll be cheering them on. This is also why 40%-Tencent-owned Epic Games have been attacking Apple non-stop ever since they purposely got themselves banned from the App Store to mount a PR lawsuit campaign to try to force Apple to allow third-party app installations, which coincidentally happened right after Trump signed an executive order that would ban Tencent’s WeChat.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  Ban is a heavy word. Can Google issue command to android phones to stop running some particular program? For example as a security measure to stop malware? I think that Google have that ability, even if that malware was side-loaded. Apple definitely can do that on Macs. That feature could be abused to prevent running any forbidden program and side-load won't help you. Android is still better than iOS in that regard, because it's open source and you can disable anything. Just side-loading might not be enough.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
    There should be an option to opt-in to side loading, and opt-out of remote app deletions. Bury them deep in settings, have a ton of recurring confirmation prompts, etc., but we should have laws to ensure these options are available on the devices we own.
  - tyfon 6y ago
    I guess they could include it in the anti-malware checks they run but I've never seen or heard that remove apps before. Wouldn't surprise me if it could though. The best option would be AOSP without google bits included.
thesausageking 6y ago
[redacted]
- agumonkey 6y ago
  Who ? Thiel ?
  - thesausageking 6y ago
    [redacted]
    - eloff 6y ago
      That's a long way from your claim that Trump was elected in large part due to Thiel.
- ericmay 6y ago
  Yea but if the citizens of the US don't like it they can call on their representatives to introduce a bill limiting that power or whatnot. The president also theoretically has the power to just unilaterally start a war or even drop a nuclear bomb on another country. But this isn't a Trump issue, we've increasingly turned to look at the president as the government instead of elected representatives. In an ideal scenario, you'd know who your state senators are, and your district representative, and when it comes to matters of federal government you go straight to them and then they vote on your behalf. This of course means even more importantly you should know your state representatives, mayor, etc. and be active in the politics of your own community. But instead we're lazy so we just want the president to be a dictator instead of safeguarding our republic.
  - mcgt 6y ago
    >But instead we're lazy so we just want the president to be a dictator instead of safeguarding our republic. Funny. I wrote my senator months ago about that encryption bill going around then. Just got a canned response back today, about how law enforcement should be able to access encrypted nformation, etc. Poetically waxing about the effects of "writing your reps" is bullshit when they are entrenched with one another and, as you said, most Americans don't care enough to do it. Maybe a better solution would be for the US to balkanize and allow localization to be more effective. Maybe a national identity more akin to the diverse regions of the US would be more like what you're describing.
busheezy 6y ago
It seems like WeChat access is pretty hard to get in the US currently if you don't know anyone that uses it. I registered an account to try and get support for my Ender 3D printer(nightmare). After a few fields the app asked me to have my sponsor enter my number and I wasn't able to progress further so I uninstalled.
- chance_state 6y ago
  Wait what? You need a "sponsor" to use WeChat?
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
    To use the Chinese version of WeChat.
    - busheezy 6y ago
      To use the version of WeChat I downloaded through the Play store.
  - nairteashop 6y ago
    Sponsor is perhaps a strong word. You need another WeChat user to verify your account by scanning a QR code displayed on your app using their app. You need to do this when you create an account, and also if you haven't used your account in a while. I assume this is some sort of anti-spam/anti-bot feature. Note that the above is just for the chat feature. You have to jump through more hoops if you want to make payments using the app.
    - ISL 6y ago
      Not only is it an anti-spam feature, but a single personal connection gives substantial insight into a person's social graph.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 6y ago
technoplato 6y ago
I’m genuinely curious what the perceived threat is here. Is it as simple as “China is going to read everyone’s stuff and use machine learning to figure out what the cool kids are doing and then brainwash them?”
- tstrimple 6y ago
  TikTok kids are mean to Trump.
  - fooey 6y ago
    I've wondered if this has all been because TikTok influencers famously tricked team Trump into thinking they had a full stadium for a rally that turned out to be humiliatingly empty. But this seems overly petty for even Trump, it's just bizarre.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      American politicians have been worried about TikTok since long before that incident, and it's not just Trump-aligned people with concerns.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      > But this seems overly petty for even Trump, Nothing is overly petty for him.
      - antonvs 6y ago
        I'm fascinated by these downvotes. Is HN super pro-Trump, or are we just dealing with raging cases of "rationalist" enlightened centrism?
  - bleepblorp 6y ago
    It's interesting that this explanation gets aggressively downvoted every time it is posted. It's a narrative that someone seems to want to bury. It is the explanation that best fits the facts, given that talk of banning TikTok didn't gain traction until after Trump's indoor rally turned up empty. I suspect the empty rally was the tipping point that gave those who wanted to get rid of TikTok for competitive reasons enough of Trump's ear for him to go full banana republic and ban it. Addendum: as expected, this post was downvoted. Say 'hi' to the RNC (and/or Putin) for me.
hirundo 6y ago
Banning a speech app should trigger strict judicial scrutiny for first amendment infringement in the same way that banning a newspaper would: 1. Is it necessary to a "compelling state interest"? Maybe they are CCP surveillance apps, but that needs be shown in court, not merely asserted. 2. Is it "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose? This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. 3. Does it use the "least restrictive means" to achieve the purpose? Like demanding that they change the apps rather than banning them.
- nickff 6y ago
  That test (strict scrutiny) is applied by a court reviewing the action; US courts generally don't provide advisory opinions.
- dheera 6y ago
  PSA: If you have an Android phone, you can download WeChat directly from wechat.com. You don't need to go through the Google Play store because your OS supports your freedom to some degree to install whatever you want on hardware that you OWN. If you have an iPhone, sorry that your phone company's CEO is pretty much a dictator and is complicit in restricting the freedom of Americans.
  - zaksoup 6y ago
    How come the argument "you can just buy an android phone" doesn't apply to iOS users in the same way "you can just sideload an APK" does to Google play store users? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these distinctions.
    - bmarquez 6y ago
      For one thing, buying a new phone, buying all your apps again for a different app store, and transferring all your data isn't a trivial task. Sideloading is free.
    - Navarr 6y ago
      sunk cost fallacy. If you have an iPhone you're probably deep into the Apple ecosystem and migrating to another platform is painful.
peacefulhat 6y ago
WeChat ban is just evil, no justifiable benefit. Almost all the users in America are overseas Chinese who use it to talk to friends and family in China and send money.
- cyc116 6y ago
  I mean if the Send money feature is what triggers it then isn't it already banned prior to this ban? There are also many non-Chinese that use wechat.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
    > There are also many non-Chinese that use wechat. Are there?
    - withinboredom 6y ago
      If you have a Chinese supplier or have Chinese friends, you probably have wechat.
- dheera 6y ago
  > WeChat ban is just evil Yes, they do some evil spyware things, but so do many US apps as well. > no justifiable benefit. Maybe to you, but this does not apply to everyone. This is supposed to be a free country, but projecting one person's idea of benefits on everyone is exactly the opposite of a free country. > Almost all the users in America are overseas Chinese who use it to talk to friends and family in China and send money. Well yes, people need a way to talk to their family, and we shouldn't be taking out country politics on civilians' basic human needs, including both visitors and US citizens with family in China. As a free country we should be respecting the needs of the overseas Chinese and overseas everyone-else who is here. While I do support apps not being evil, I don't think the right answer is to ban WeChat. Rather, the right answer is better and stricter privacy controls on phone OSes that prevent these apps from doing evil things, like arbitrarily scanning your Wi-Fi networks, which both WeChat and Google do. LineageOS (Android fork) has a good set of tools for this and can run WeChat just fine while spoofing fake data to their servers for most of these spy attempts.
danellis 6y ago
What was the point of selling TikTok to Oracle if it's just going to be banned anyway?
- el_dev_hell 6y ago
  There is no talk of TikTok selling to Oracle. The public proposal is a data agreement (basically, Oracle would be storing TikTok data in the US). Some details are here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/technology/tiktok-oracle-opposition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/technology/tiktok-oracle-...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pjc50 6y ago
  It wasn't, the deal was never completed; the point of the ban is to coerce them into selling.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
peteontherun 6y ago
Although this is very reactionary and targeted, I hope it eventually spurs a structured process to handle issues like these, ie: a) Clear criteria for what constitutes an app national security risk b) An actual government process to evaluate, respond, and enforce against all potential app threats (not just based on popularity, though scale is a factor in prioritization)
- pessimizer 6y ago
  I'd rather they not institutionalize this. More bureaucracy isn't going to be meaningful if this is the model, the bureaucracy will just exist to whitewash this stuff in the future.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    I also prefer "less authoritarianism" to "more reasonable authoritarianism".
seebetter 6y ago
It is great to be an idealist but in the end, we will lose precepts of the Enlightenment unless we act strong and intelligently.
euix 6y ago
On the flip side maybe Fdroid will take off. Is fdroid open source repos only? If Bytedance was gutsy they could release an open source version of tiktok. They could keep their algo as closed off either as compiled code or for the app to make API calls? The rest of the code base, everyone could see.
- rvz 6y ago
  > On the flip side maybe Fdroid will take off. Is fdroid open source repos only? FLOSS repos I guess, but they are 'opinionated' in which open source software they allow on f-droid which this statement goes against the entire idea of FLOSS. Even if the software is open source and free software [0]. As you said, Bytedance must essentially do the same thing as Telegram and relicense it as GPL3 [1]. That includes everything. [0] https://www.f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html https://www.f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html [1] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.telegram.messenger/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.telegram.messenger/ > If Bytedance was gutsy they could release an open source version of tiktok. They could keep their algo as closed off either as compiled code or for the app to make API calls? Hence the above, I don't see this happening.
  - em-bee 6y ago
    f-droid clients support multiple repos. the main repo is just one. in the f-droid forums you can find others which employ different policies.
trasz 6y ago
Well, since US fails to compete in other ways...
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  What? The U.S. failed to create competing social apps? You realize the only reason WeChat exists is because China didn't let western companies compete, right?
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I wouldn't say it's the only reason. WeChat is more than just a chat app; it's also a social networking and payments app. For digital payments, at least, the US is far, far behind the ease of use and merchant buy-in that apps like WeChat offer. I know people in China and other Asian countries who rarely pull out cash or even a credit/bank card, and handle nearly all of their payments through apps. Think of it like Venmo, but all merchants accept it directly, and you can complete transactions in the middle of a chat session (with a merchant or a regular person) without having to switch to another payment-dedicated UX.
  - AlchemistCamp 6y ago
    > You realize the only reason WeChat exists is because China didn't let western companies compete, right? I think blocking LINE was a bigger factor. For a time it was growing rapidly in China and it ultimately won in Japan and a couple of other Asian markets.
  - trasz 6y ago
    You realize that the only reason for US threats toward WeChat is because it's taking the market share from US companies, right?
dheera 6y ago
PSA: If you have an Android phone, you can download WeChat directly from wechat.com. You don't need to go through the Google Play store because your OS supports your freedom to some degree to install whatever you want on hardware that you OWN. If you have an iPhone, sorry that your phone company's CEO is pretty much a dictator and is complicit in restricting the freedom of Americans.
- chance_state 6y ago
  You can download the spyware directly from the source!
yalogin 6y ago
Is WeChat even useful in the US? Is it used at all?
- baron_harkonnen 6y ago
  I'm guessing you don't have many Chinese friends, if you do I would recommend asking them how important it is for them. It is an essential form of communication for the large community of Chinese citizens in the US. If you have any Chinese friends I can promise you their families are worried about how they are going to keep in touch. It's also heavily used for intra-US communication in various Chinese communities. In the NYC area there is almost an entire other city available to WeChat users. It's a big, and I do believe intentional, 'fuck you' to the Chinese community.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
    It's a big pain, but surely they'll find another way to keep in touch, though? What do western people do in China to keep in touch with their families back home, when all the western social media apps are banned? It's hard for me to believe that a state-backed communications app is the only option available to Chinese expats.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      I assume most expats living in China use VPNs to get around the blocks. The blocks are mainly there to keep Chinese citizens in line; from what I understand non-citizen residents seem to be mostly left alone, as long as they don't interfere with censorship and blocking intended for citizens.
    - withinboredom 6y ago
      > What do western people do in China to keep in touch with their families back home, when all the western social media apps are banned? They change the country of their app store.
      - 6y ago
mcintyre1994 6y ago
The cynic in me wonders if the TikTok ban is just to try to drive the price down for Trump’s friend Larry Ellison.
rgbrenner 6y ago
Just 3 months after TikTok users embarrassed Trump at his Tulsa rally, where he left visibly upset. He's called for the repeal of section 230 because of "tech bias". He attacks news outlets for “biassed” reporting. He attacks whistle blowers. He attacks people that supported him and later changed their minds (mattis, kelly, etc). He attacks Amazon for owning Washington Post. He attacks anyone that opposes him. I'm surprised people are taking this ban at face value. And what's sad is that he's made it clear he would attack US tech companies if he can find a legal basis to do so. There's zero doubt in my mind that this is all about Trump silencing opposition. It's his modus operandi. Edit: Even the sale was politicized. He came out against Microsoft owning it, and publicly supported Oracle... Ellison being one of his friends.. whom I would guess Trump assumed would make the platform more friendly to him.
- akersten 6y ago
  > I'm surprised people are taking this ban at face value. Yeah, it's astounding how quickly these discussions focused in on "well, what are the pros and cons of banning an app? When is an app a national security issue? What is an appropriate trade retaliation?" and completely missed the fact that - hey, the US government is, for the first time, using the Commerce department to dictate what code you can execute on your own device. It's absolutely disheartening how many people are getting distracted from the real issue here. This is another trial balloon to expand executive power, and they're going to get away with it because "national security."
  - quantum_state 6y ago
    Pretty soon they will dictate how we should arrange furnitures at our own home ....
thorum 6y ago
> Users, meanwhile, face a security “nightmare” because they won’t be able to get app updates that fix bugs and security vulnerabilities, he said. This is because people who already have the app will be able to continue using it, just without updates. So we can probably expect to see a mad rush of new users downloading the app over the weekend before it gets banned - and then keeping an outdated, insecure app on their devices without any security updates...
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  I saw people selling iPhones with Fortnite installed with some premium. That story might be repeated.
stickfigure 6y ago
I'm confused: How does the executive branch have the right to unilaterally edit app stores? If Trump says "I'm sick of Barron playing CandyCrush at the dinner table, let's just ban it" can he do that? How? Shouldn't this require legislation? As an American, this seems very... "unamerican".
- gabruoy 6y ago
  I have been trying to figure this out as well. I am just guessing as I haven't found anything specific, but since this is being issued by the department of commerce, I would assume that downloading an app from the Google Play or App Store would constitute a transaction, even if the price of the software is free, and the government can order that these are products that constitute a national security risk.
- antonvs 6y ago
  I agree. We're basically implementing the American version of the Great Firewall of China, which previously was heavily criticized.
peter303 6y ago
Trump attacks a children's app because he is unable to do much against China otherwise. US apps from Facebook and Google collect far more personal data and use it more malevolently.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  > US apps from Facebook and Google collect far more personal data and use it more malevolently. Source? What 'malevolent' use has Google made of your data?
tus88 6y ago
Shutting We Chat is pretty huge for the diaspora.
xnx 6y ago
Any concern about apps accessing data is a great argument for sandboxing apps completely from the rest of your phone (e.g. no shared file access, no shared camera roll, no genuine GPS data, 2-way logged/firewalled network access, etc.)
gameswithgo 6y ago
We see another side effect of app stores: gives governments easy leverage to tell you what you can do with your computer.
- kunai 6y ago
  Bingo. Wonder how all the Apple defenders like John Gruber are gonna spin this one. App Stores were always a mistake. Walled gardens were always a mistake. The people arguing that they were good because of security or whatever were arguing on behalf of a red herring. It's security theater. iOS has had, what, like 6 critical vulnerabilities in the past 5 years? What was the point? Quite literally only to limit what you can and can't run on your own device. For all it's worth, I'm thrilled the Microsoft Store is dying a painful death and that most Windows apps continue to be installable via NSIS or MSIs.
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
    I grew up before the mobile 'revolution' and I miss the days when just getting a setup.exe from a friend on a floppy disk and running it to install a piece of software did not feel like high treason.
  - Ir0nMan 6y ago
    App Stores were not a mistake, having only one App store allowed like Apple does is a mistake.
- 2bitencryption 6y ago
  I hadn't even thought of this. What if WeChat was a traditional installer (.msi, .app, .exe, .run) that you download from some sever and which is mirrored all over the place? Does the same authority apply? Can the government say "it's illegal to have this binary executable?" Or is this only possible because there's one central repository for these platforms, and the government can simply compel the platform (legal and ethical questions aside) to remove them?
  - failuser 6y ago
akersten 6y ago
When will Apple and Google come out and say "no" to this? What is the legislative mechanism that gives the Dept of Commerce control over what code (speech) is transmitted on their app platform? Calling it a "transaction" is a stretch - using that logic, Department of Commerce could ban any online download they wanted. That's clearly not a good outcome, and not an interpretation we as technologists should accept.
- grumple 6y ago
  Can't they? Aren't there bans on open source contributions between Iran and the US? See: https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I think there's a legal difference between declaring an entire country and its citizens subject to these sorts of restrictions (which is allowed), vs. singling out specific companies. But unfortunately the executive has been granted a lot of ambiguous and murky power under the guise of "national security" and things like that, so I wouldn't be surprised if these actions are indeed legal, but the root of the legality is something other than ITAR or OFAC.
- oscargrouch 6y ago
  I think this would be better rephrased as: "When will @akersten(me) come out and say "no" to this?" The app stores are on your phone, the apps you should install on your property should be your decision and no government or company should have any say on this. Its a matter of right, its a matter of freedom, and we should not just have the sad option to choose the one who we will abdicate our freedom for. We should not fall for this false dichotomy of choice where by picking any of them, we loose our freedoms anyway, only having the freedom to choose who will pick for us.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  Why should Apple and Google say no to this? HN is usually in support for government interventions against big cos. We are told that the government is expressing the will of the people. Why should we encourage Apple and Google to counter the will of the people in this case?
lgats 6y ago
duplicate thread of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515540
csb6 6y ago
Love how people criticize the Chinese security state for banning websites and apps as infringing on free speech, but of the U.S. does it, it’s a smart move.
bambax 6y ago
Why does the rest of the world tolerate American bullying is beyond me. At least in Europe, we should ban every Facebook app immediately. This would have the added benefit of letting regional apps emerge.
- jlmorton 6y ago
  One big reason is that America controls the SWIFT network for settling international transactions. If you hate American commercial bullying, perhaps the biggest thing to be excited about is Europe's SWIFT-alternative, INSTEX. The world is so reliant on SWIFT currently that America can grind your commerce to a halt if you don't refuse to do business with entities it doesn't want you to. (I realize this current TikTok action is domestic-only and unrelated to SWIFT, but I'm speaking more broadly).
  - tobias3 6y ago
    "SWIFT" is already in Belgium and INSTEX isn't a SWIFT replacement. This isn't a technical problem (one can transfer money other ways as well, for example). If an entity does business with Iran it risks being put on the US Entity List (think Huawei) or other sanctions. US influence currently is still far reaching and many businesses don't want to risk (future) complications for little gain (Iran isn't that large of an economy). The calculus changes if it is a market as large as China, though.
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  Germany just offered to invest $1.2 billion in LNG terminals if US allows them to continue with Nordstream 2. https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Germany-Offered-US-12B-To-Save-Nord-Stream-2.html https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Germany-O...
  - Aperocky 6y ago
    Thanks for the link, that's an interesting read. The media is trying its darnedest to paint China as the biggest bully, except it doesn't even compare to US in real world.
tomohawk 6y ago
That's a good start. Next up: twitter, facebook, instagram, ...
bmitc 6y ago
China bans WhatsApp. The U.S. bans WeChat. Great, no I have no official app besides good old text and phone to communicate with my fiancée who is still banned from reentering the U.S. despite still having a job here. The U.S. has simply become an authoritarian state of a different color. My fiancée is prevented from returning and we are prevented from using our primary communication method simply because the so-called president wants to personally gain from these actions (i.e., swindle a re-election). And what am I supposed to use to pay for things when I visit China now if WeChat is removed from AppStores? Freedom my ass. Facebook, Google, and the others all collect the same if not more data than these apps, and those companies have shown time and again they do not have the American people’s best interests at heart and abuse the data collection and their power. So what are we doing here? Instead, I suspect there was collusion between Facebook and Trump’s cronies for them to have released Instagram Reels when they did.
- martin__ 6y ago
  I thought the border restriction was just about having been in China in the last 14 days. Couldn't she get back into the US if she went to a different country first for 14 days?
  - bmitc 6y ago
    No. The U.S. refuses to even process visas. Early on, the U.S. initially held her passport (a foreign one at that!) for over a month, preventing travel to countries she had valid visas to. When she eventually did once the passport was returned, the U.S. canceled her appointment, forcing travel back to China. Such foreign visas have now expired. The U.S. continues to allow appointments to be made at embassies and consulates and then cancels them right before. She actually falls into one of the conditional allowances that should get her back, based upon lawsuits from large employers, but the U.S. is not keeping appointments and not processing visas. So whatever they claim is allowed (which is not much), they are blocking that and more on a procedural level, just like they were doing since January before any bans were even in place. They don’t care. H1Bs and others (at least from China) are banned at a minimum until January 2021.
neves 6y ago
What really makes me afraid is that the USA Gov is so scared of a foreign social network app, they must really know how powerful are these apps. How would I trust the social networks under the American Gov?
- jjcon 6y ago
  > How would I trust the social networks under the American Gov? Presumably a country probably wouldn’t if they are an enemy of the western world.
  - el_dev_hell 6y ago
    Such as China (see: Facebook, Youtube and Instagram).
- asdff 6y ago
  You wouldn't. It's not what tick tock would do, that can be achieved just as easily on any other social network as is routinely done, it's that you can't pay tick tock to do whatever you want to do like with an american company.
senderista 6y ago
Even when the actions of this administration seem facially justified, I always assume they are acting in bad faith.
tomlin 6y ago
For a country to purport itself to be about freedom...
- jjcon 6y ago
  Isn’t this just an embargo? The fact that it is on software is new but embargos have been a thing in just about every western democracy
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
trashcan_ 6y ago
I really hope there is more to this story than the public is privy to, and I hope we find out about it soon.
nullc 6y ago
I wonder what would happen if WeChat/TikTok opened up their protocols and let people connect with arbitrary software, including self written and open source stuff. The malware vector concerns would be gone. They could still spy on communication that wasn't E2E encrypted or impersonate users but that concern arises with essentially every communications service.
- TheDong 6y ago
  I doubt that realistically it would make any difference. There being open source alternative apps to consume a service means exactly nothing to the officials pushing for this ban. The action seems to be politically motivated, and technical details like "the protocol is open" are not going to be understood by politicians.
  - nullc 6y ago
    Months before the executive branch took notice there was widespread outcry in computer security circles about tiktok, including on HN. Tiktok was a toxic malware vector, until the executive branch took notice, then it suddenly became a poor victim of political persecution.
  - chrchang523 6y ago
    It wouldn't make a difference if only client code was open-sourced, sure. But if the entire system was open for Americans to peruse and operate their shards of, that might be a different story. Not saying that is practical, but I've never seen an objection on nationalist grounds to the fully open-source code I wrote from China while employed by a Chinese company in 2012-14.
Simulacra 6y ago
Under what analogy might the United States be justified in doing this?
mrlonglong 6y ago
This, I'm afraid, is purely Trump's vindinctive revenge on tiktokkers as a million of them wrecked his rally by booking tickets to it and never showed. Isn't abusing his powers and dishonouring the Presidential Office an impeachable offence anyway?
ApolloFortyNine 6y ago
Wechat has an inherent advantage that in order to chat in China or too chat with anyone living in China, you must use wechat. No American or European chatting app has this same benefit. And since chatting apps and social media in general tends to gravitate to the service with the most users, this puts wechat in a great position. Why use wechat to message your friend in China and WhatsApp to message the rest of the world, when you can just use wechat for both?
bamboozled 6y ago
What happens when the next one comes along ? Does that just get banned too? It wouldn’t really been hard to imagine they take almost the same codebase rebrand and relaunch.
hijklmno 6y ago
When China does not allow foreign companies to operate in their land (Facebook, Amazon, and a host of other companies) then why should we allow their companies to exist here?
blackrock 6y ago
So, we are supposed to have a congress that deliberates and passes laws. This is the notion that we are a society of laws. However, here, we have a president that acts by decree, similar to a dictator. No deliberations. No industry consultations. Nothing. Just some vague excuse that this is a national security issue, so no further questions are allowed. Welcome to the new Totalitarian States of America.
stevespang 6y ago
. . . the Chinese government strictly limits what U.S. tech companies can do in China. . . and India has already banned and restricted dozens of Chinese apps, as punishment over the conflict in the Himalayas. No lawsuit against India in that country, would be a waste of time.
zepto 6y ago
This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with foreign policy. China doesn’t allow US social apps. For historical reasons to do with attempts to establish trust, the US has allowed Chinese social apps. That trust is arguably no longer reasonable to hold. It is entirely reasonable for the US to want to trade with China on an equal footing. It’s notable that China is the worlds largest economy, and proclaims the superiority of their socialist system over western democracy. Obviously the US claims to be the worlds largest economy, and proclaims the superiority of western democracy over socialism. Regardless of who is right, there is no legitimate argument supporting a continued imbalance in the playing field. Trump may be doing a stupid and clumsy thing here, but the motivations seem reasonable.

252 points by dsavant 6y ago

SomeHacker44 6y ago

US Government just provided another case study in why we need to be able to side load apps.

abc-xyz 6y ago
Funny, I was thinking the exact opposite. It’s the perfect way to isolate China from the rest of the world, and unless they start going after allies then I’ll be cheering them on. This is also why 40%-Tencent-owned Epic Games have been attacking Apple non-stop ever since they purposely got themselves banned from the App Store to mount a PR lawsuit campaign to try to force Apple to allow third-party app installations, which coincidentally happened right after Trump signed an executive order that would ban Tencent’s WeChat.
vbezhenar 6y ago
Ban is a heavy word. Can Google issue command to android phones to stop running some particular program? For example as a security measure to stop malware? I think that Google have that ability, even if that malware was side-loaded. Apple definitely can do that on Macs. That feature could be abused to prevent running any forbidden program and side-load won't help you. Android is still better than iOS in that regard, because it's open source and you can disable anything. Just side-loading might not be enough.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  There should be an option to opt-in to side loading, and opt-out of remote app deletions. Bury them deep in settings, have a ton of recurring confirmation prompts, etc., but we should have laws to ensure these options are available on the devices we own.
- tyfon 6y ago
  I guess they could include it in the anti-malware checks they run but I've never seen or heard that remove apps before. Wouldn't surprise me if it could though. The best option would be AOSP without google bits included.

thesausageking 6y ago

[redacted]

agumonkey 6y ago
Who ? Thiel ?
- thesausageking 6y ago
  [redacted]
  - eloff 6y ago
    That's a long way from your claim that Trump was elected in large part due to Thiel.
ericmay 6y ago
Yea but if the citizens of the US don't like it they can call on their representatives to introduce a bill limiting that power or whatnot. The president also theoretically has the power to just unilaterally start a war or even drop a nuclear bomb on another country. But this isn't a Trump issue, we've increasingly turned to look at the president as the government instead of elected representatives. In an ideal scenario, you'd know who your state senators are, and your district representative, and when it comes to matters of federal government you go straight to them and then they vote on your behalf. This of course means even more importantly you should know your state representatives, mayor, etc. and be active in the politics of your own community. But instead we're lazy so we just want the president to be a dictator instead of safeguarding our republic.
- mcgt 6y ago
  >But instead we're lazy so we just want the president to be a dictator instead of safeguarding our republic. Funny. I wrote my senator months ago about that encryption bill going around then. Just got a canned response back today, about how law enforcement should be able to access encrypted nformation, etc. Poetically waxing about the effects of "writing your reps" is bullshit when they are entrenched with one another and, as you said, most Americans don't care enough to do it. Maybe a better solution would be for the US to balkanize and allow localization to be more effective. Maybe a national identity more akin to the diverse regions of the US would be more like what you're describing.

busheezy 6y ago

It seems like WeChat access is pretty hard to get in the US currently if you don't know anyone that uses it. I registered an account to try and get support for my Ender 3D printer(nightmare). After a few fields the app asked me to have my sponsor enter my number and I wasn't able to progress further so I uninstalled.

chance_state 6y ago
Wait what? You need a "sponsor" to use WeChat?
- bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
  To use the Chinese version of WeChat.
  - busheezy 6y ago
    To use the version of WeChat I downloaded through the Play store.
- nairteashop 6y ago
  Sponsor is perhaps a strong word. You need another WeChat user to verify your account by scanning a QR code displayed on your app using their app. You need to do this when you create an account, and also if you haven't used your account in a while. I assume this is some sort of anti-spam/anti-bot feature. Note that the above is just for the chat feature. You have to jump through more hoops if you want to make payments using the app.
  - ISL 6y ago
    Not only is it an anti-spam feature, but a single personal connection gives substantial insight into a person's social graph.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 6y ago

technoplato 6y ago

I’m genuinely curious what the perceived threat is here. Is it as simple as “China is going to read everyone’s stuff and use machine learning to figure out what the cool kids are doing and then brainwash them?”

tstrimple 6y ago
TikTok kids are mean to Trump.
- fooey 6y ago
  I've wondered if this has all been because TikTok influencers famously tricked team Trump into thinking they had a full stadium for a rally that turned out to be humiliatingly empty. But this seems overly petty for even Trump, it's just bizarre.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    American politicians have been worried about TikTok since long before that incident, and it's not just Trump-aligned people with concerns.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > But this seems overly petty for even Trump, Nothing is overly petty for him.
    - antonvs 6y ago
      I'm fascinated by these downvotes. Is HN super pro-Trump, or are we just dealing with raging cases of "rationalist" enlightened centrism?
- bleepblorp 6y ago
  It's interesting that this explanation gets aggressively downvoted every time it is posted. It's a narrative that someone seems to want to bury. It is the explanation that best fits the facts, given that talk of banning TikTok didn't gain traction until after Trump's indoor rally turned up empty. I suspect the empty rally was the tipping point that gave those who wanted to get rid of TikTok for competitive reasons enough of Trump's ear for him to go full banana republic and ban it. Addendum: as expected, this post was downvoted. Say 'hi' to the RNC (and/or Putin) for me.

hirundo 6y ago

Banning a speech app should trigger strict judicial scrutiny for first amendment infringement in the same way that banning a newspaper would: 1. Is it necessary to a "compelling state interest"? Maybe they are CCP surveillance apps, but that needs be shown in court, not merely asserted. 2. Is it "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose? This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. 3. Does it use the "least restrictive means" to achieve the purpose? Like demanding that they change the apps rather than banning them.

nickff 6y ago
That test (strict scrutiny) is applied by a court reviewing the action; US courts generally don't provide advisory opinions.
dheera 6y ago
PSA: If you have an Android phone, you can download WeChat directly from wechat.com. You don't need to go through the Google Play store because your OS supports your freedom to some degree to install whatever you want on hardware that you OWN. If you have an iPhone, sorry that your phone company's CEO is pretty much a dictator and is complicit in restricting the freedom of Americans.
- zaksoup 6y ago
  How come the argument "you can just buy an android phone" doesn't apply to iOS users in the same way "you can just sideload an APK" does to Google play store users? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these distinctions.
  - bmarquez 6y ago
    For one thing, buying a new phone, buying all your apps again for a different app store, and transferring all your data isn't a trivial task. Sideloading is free.
  - Navarr 6y ago
    sunk cost fallacy. If you have an iPhone you're probably deep into the Apple ecosystem and migrating to another platform is painful.

peacefulhat 6y ago

WeChat ban is just evil, no justifiable benefit. Almost all the users in America are overseas Chinese who use it to talk to friends and family in China and send money.

cyc116 6y ago
I mean if the Send money feature is what triggers it then isn't it already banned prior to this ban? There are also many non-Chinese that use wechat.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  > There are also many non-Chinese that use wechat. Are there?
  - withinboredom 6y ago
    If you have a Chinese supplier or have Chinese friends, you probably have wechat.
dheera 6y ago
> WeChat ban is just evil Yes, they do some evil spyware things, but so do many US apps as well. > no justifiable benefit. Maybe to you, but this does not apply to everyone. This is supposed to be a free country, but projecting one person's idea of benefits on everyone is exactly the opposite of a free country. > Almost all the users in America are overseas Chinese who use it to talk to friends and family in China and send money. Well yes, people need a way to talk to their family, and we shouldn't be taking out country politics on civilians' basic human needs, including both visitors and US citizens with family in China. As a free country we should be respecting the needs of the overseas Chinese and overseas everyone-else who is here. While I do support apps not being evil, I don't think the right answer is to ban WeChat. Rather, the right answer is better and stricter privacy controls on phone OSes that prevent these apps from doing evil things, like arbitrarily scanning your Wi-Fi networks, which both WeChat and Google do. LineageOS (Android fork) has a good set of tools for this and can run WeChat just fine while spoofing fake data to their servers for most of these spy attempts.

danellis 6y ago

What was the point of selling TikTok to Oracle if it's just going to be banned anyway?

el_dev_hell 6y ago
There is no talk of TikTok selling to Oracle. The public proposal is a data agreement (basically, Oracle would be storing TikTok data in the US). Some details are here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/technology/tiktok-oracle-opposition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/technology/tiktok-oracle-...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pjc50 6y ago
It wasn't, the deal was never completed; the point of the ban is to coerce them into selling.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

peteontherun 6y ago

Although this is very reactionary and targeted, I hope it eventually spurs a structured process to handle issues like these, ie: a) Clear criteria for what constitutes an app national security risk b) An actual government process to evaluate, respond, and enforce against all potential app threats (not just based on popularity, though scale is a factor in prioritization)

pessimizer 6y ago
I'd rather they not institutionalize this. More bureaucracy isn't going to be meaningful if this is the model, the bureaucracy will just exist to whitewash this stuff in the future.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  I also prefer "less authoritarianism" to "more reasonable authoritarianism".

seebetter 6y ago

It is great to be an idealist but in the end, we will lose precepts of the Enlightenment unless we act strong and intelligently.

euix 6y ago

On the flip side maybe Fdroid will take off. Is fdroid open source repos only? If Bytedance was gutsy they could release an open source version of tiktok. They could keep their algo as closed off either as compiled code or for the app to make API calls? The rest of the code base, everyone could see.

rvz 6y ago
> On the flip side maybe Fdroid will take off. Is fdroid open source repos only? FLOSS repos I guess, but they are 'opinionated' in which open source software they allow on f-droid which this statement goes against the entire idea of FLOSS. Even if the software is open source and free software [0]. As you said, Bytedance must essentially do the same thing as Telegram and relicense it as GPL3 [1]. That includes everything. [0] https://www.f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html https://www.f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html [1] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.telegram.messenger/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.telegram.messenger/ > If Bytedance was gutsy they could release an open source version of tiktok. They could keep their algo as closed off either as compiled code or for the app to make API calls? Hence the above, I don't see this happening.
- em-bee 6y ago
  f-droid clients support multiple repos. the main repo is just one. in the f-droid forums you can find others which employ different policies.

trasz 6y ago

Well, since US fails to compete in other ways...

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
What? The U.S. failed to create competing social apps? You realize the only reason WeChat exists is because China didn't let western companies compete, right?
- kelnos 6y ago
  I wouldn't say it's the only reason. WeChat is more than just a chat app; it's also a social networking and payments app. For digital payments, at least, the US is far, far behind the ease of use and merchant buy-in that apps like WeChat offer. I know people in China and other Asian countries who rarely pull out cash or even a credit/bank card, and handle nearly all of their payments through apps. Think of it like Venmo, but all merchants accept it directly, and you can complete transactions in the middle of a chat session (with a merchant or a regular person) without having to switch to another payment-dedicated UX.
- AlchemistCamp 6y ago
  > You realize the only reason WeChat exists is because China didn't let western companies compete, right? I think blocking LINE was a bigger factor. For a time it was growing rapidly in China and it ultimately won in Japan and a couple of other Asian markets.
- trasz 6y ago
  You realize that the only reason for US threats toward WeChat is because it's taking the market share from US companies, right?

dheera 6y ago

PSA: If you have an Android phone, you can download WeChat directly from wechat.com. You don't need to go through the Google Play store because your OS supports your freedom to some degree to install whatever you want on hardware that you OWN. If you have an iPhone, sorry that your phone company's CEO is pretty much a dictator and is complicit in restricting the freedom of Americans.

chance_state 6y ago
You can download the spyware directly from the source!

yalogin 6y ago

Is WeChat even useful in the US? Is it used at all?

baron_harkonnen 6y ago
I'm guessing you don't have many Chinese friends, if you do I would recommend asking them how important it is for them. It is an essential form of communication for the large community of Chinese citizens in the US. If you have any Chinese friends I can promise you their families are worried about how they are going to keep in touch. It's also heavily used for intra-US communication in various Chinese communities. In the NYC area there is almost an entire other city available to WeChat users. It's a big, and I do believe intentional, 'fuck you' to the Chinese community.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  It's a big pain, but surely they'll find another way to keep in touch, though? What do western people do in China to keep in touch with their families back home, when all the western social media apps are banned? It's hard for me to believe that a state-backed communications app is the only option available to Chinese expats.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I assume most expats living in China use VPNs to get around the blocks. The blocks are mainly there to keep Chinese citizens in line; from what I understand non-citizen residents seem to be mostly left alone, as long as they don't interfere with censorship and blocking intended for citizens.
  - withinboredom 6y ago
    > What do western people do in China to keep in touch with their families back home, when all the western social media apps are banned? They change the country of their app store.
    - 6y ago

mcintyre1994 6y ago

The cynic in me wonders if the TikTok ban is just to try to drive the price down for Trump’s friend Larry Ellison.

rgbrenner 6y ago

Just 3 months after TikTok users embarrassed Trump at his Tulsa rally, where he left visibly upset. He's called for the repeal of section 230 because of "tech bias". He attacks news outlets for “biassed” reporting. He attacks whistle blowers. He attacks people that supported him and later changed their minds (mattis, kelly, etc). He attacks Amazon for owning Washington Post. He attacks anyone that opposes him. I'm surprised people are taking this ban at face value. And what's sad is that he's made it clear he would attack US tech companies if he can find a legal basis to do so. There's zero doubt in my mind that this is all about Trump silencing opposition. It's his modus operandi. Edit: Even the sale was politicized. He came out against Microsoft owning it, and publicly supported Oracle... Ellison being one of his friends.. whom I would guess Trump assumed would make the platform more friendly to him.

akersten 6y ago
> I'm surprised people are taking this ban at face value. Yeah, it's astounding how quickly these discussions focused in on "well, what are the pros and cons of banning an app? When is an app a national security issue? What is an appropriate trade retaliation?" and completely missed the fact that - hey, the US government is, for the first time, using the Commerce department to dictate what code you can execute on your own device. It's absolutely disheartening how many people are getting distracted from the real issue here. This is another trial balloon to expand executive power, and they're going to get away with it because "national security."
- quantum_state 6y ago
  Pretty soon they will dictate how we should arrange furnitures at our own home ....

thorum 6y ago

> Users, meanwhile, face a security “nightmare” because they won’t be able to get app updates that fix bugs and security vulnerabilities, he said. This is because people who already have the app will be able to continue using it, just without updates. So we can probably expect to see a mad rush of new users downloading the app over the weekend before it gets banned - and then keeping an outdated, insecure app on their devices without any security updates...

vbezhenar 6y ago
I saw people selling iPhones with Fortnite installed with some premium. That story might be repeated.

stickfigure 6y ago

I'm confused: How does the executive branch have the right to unilaterally edit app stores? If Trump says "I'm sick of Barron playing CandyCrush at the dinner table, let's just ban it" can he do that? How? Shouldn't this require legislation? As an American, this seems very... "unamerican".

gabruoy 6y ago
I have been trying to figure this out as well. I am just guessing as I haven't found anything specific, but since this is being issued by the department of commerce, I would assume that downloading an app from the Google Play or App Store would constitute a transaction, even if the price of the software is free, and the government can order that these are products that constitute a national security risk.
antonvs 6y ago
I agree. We're basically implementing the American version of the Great Firewall of China, which previously was heavily criticized.

peter303 6y ago

Trump attacks a children's app because he is unable to do much against China otherwise. US apps from Facebook and Google collect far more personal data and use it more malevolently.

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
> US apps from Facebook and Google collect far more personal data and use it more malevolently. Source? What 'malevolent' use has Google made of your data?

tus88 6y ago

Shutting We Chat is pretty huge for the diaspora.

xnx 6y ago

Any concern about apps accessing data is a great argument for sandboxing apps completely from the rest of your phone (e.g. no shared file access, no shared camera roll, no genuine GPS data, 2-way logged/firewalled network access, etc.)

gameswithgo 6y ago

We see another side effect of app stores: gives governments easy leverage to tell you what you can do with your computer.

kunai 6y ago
Bingo. Wonder how all the Apple defenders like John Gruber are gonna spin this one. App Stores were always a mistake. Walled gardens were always a mistake. The people arguing that they were good because of security or whatever were arguing on behalf of a red herring. It's security theater. iOS has had, what, like 6 critical vulnerabilities in the past 5 years? What was the point? Quite literally only to limit what you can and can't run on your own device. For all it's worth, I'm thrilled the Microsoft Store is dying a painful death and that most Windows apps continue to be installable via NSIS or MSIs.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  I grew up before the mobile 'revolution' and I miss the days when just getting a setup.exe from a friend on a floppy disk and running it to install a piece of software did not feel like high treason.
- Ir0nMan 6y ago
  App Stores were not a mistake, having only one App store allowed like Apple does is a mistake.
2bitencryption 6y ago
I hadn't even thought of this. What if WeChat was a traditional installer (.msi, .app, .exe, .run) that you download from some sever and which is mirrored all over the place? Does the same authority apply? Can the government say "it's illegal to have this binary executable?" Or is this only possible because there's one central repository for these platforms, and the government can simply compel the platform (legal and ethical questions aside) to remove them?
- failuser 6y ago

akersten 6y ago

When will Apple and Google come out and say "no" to this? What is the legislative mechanism that gives the Dept of Commerce control over what code (speech) is transmitted on their app platform? Calling it a "transaction" is a stretch - using that logic, Department of Commerce could ban any online download they wanted. That's clearly not a good outcome, and not an interpretation we as technologists should accept.

grumple 6y ago
Can't they? Aren't there bans on open source contributions between Iran and the US? See: https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us https://github.com/1995parham/github-do-not-ban-us
- kelnos 6y ago
  I think there's a legal difference between declaring an entire country and its citizens subject to these sorts of restrictions (which is allowed), vs. singling out specific companies. But unfortunately the executive has been granted a lot of ambiguous and murky power under the guise of "national security" and things like that, so I wouldn't be surprised if these actions are indeed legal, but the root of the legality is something other than ITAR or OFAC.
oscargrouch 6y ago
I think this would be better rephrased as: "When will @akersten(me) come out and say "no" to this?" The app stores are on your phone, the apps you should install on your property should be your decision and no government or company should have any say on this. Its a matter of right, its a matter of freedom, and we should not just have the sad option to choose the one who we will abdicate our freedom for. We should not fall for this false dichotomy of choice where by picking any of them, we loose our freedoms anyway, only having the freedom to choose who will pick for us.
kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
Why should Apple and Google say no to this? HN is usually in support for government interventions against big cos. We are told that the government is expressing the will of the people. Why should we encourage Apple and Google to counter the will of the people in this case?

lgats 6y ago

duplicate thread of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515540

csb6 6y ago

Love how people criticize the Chinese security state for banning websites and apps as infringing on free speech, but of the U.S. does it, it’s a smart move.

bambax 6y ago

Why does the rest of the world tolerate American bullying is beyond me. At least in Europe, we should ban every Facebook app immediately. This would have the added benefit of letting regional apps emerge.

jlmorton 6y ago
One big reason is that America controls the SWIFT network for settling international transactions. If you hate American commercial bullying, perhaps the biggest thing to be excited about is Europe's SWIFT-alternative, INSTEX. The world is so reliant on SWIFT currently that America can grind your commerce to a halt if you don't refuse to do business with entities it doesn't want you to. (I realize this current TikTok action is domestic-only and unrelated to SWIFT, but I'm speaking more broadly).
- tobias3 6y ago
  "SWIFT" is already in Belgium and INSTEX isn't a SWIFT replacement. This isn't a technical problem (one can transfer money other ways as well, for example). If an entity does business with Iran it risks being put on the US Entity List (think Huawei) or other sanctions. US influence currently is still far reaching and many businesses don't want to risk (future) complications for little gain (Iran isn't that large of an economy). The calculus changes if it is a market as large as China, though.
pantalaimon 6y ago
Germany just offered to invest $1.2 billion in LNG terminals if US allows them to continue with Nordstream 2. https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Germany-Offered-US-12B-To-Save-Nord-Stream-2.html https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Germany-O...
- Aperocky 6y ago
  Thanks for the link, that's an interesting read. The media is trying its darnedest to paint China as the biggest bully, except it doesn't even compare to US in real world.

tomohawk 6y ago

That's a good start. Next up: twitter, facebook, instagram, ...

bmitc 6y ago

China bans WhatsApp. The U.S. bans WeChat. Great, no I have no official app besides good old text and phone to communicate with my fiancée who is still banned from reentering the U.S. despite still having a job here. The U.S. has simply become an authoritarian state of a different color. My fiancée is prevented from returning and we are prevented from using our primary communication method simply because the so-called president wants to personally gain from these actions (i.e., swindle a re-election). And what am I supposed to use to pay for things when I visit China now if WeChat is removed from AppStores? Freedom my ass. Facebook, Google, and the others all collect the same if not more data than these apps, and those companies have shown time and again they do not have the American people’s best interests at heart and abuse the data collection and their power. So what are we doing here? Instead, I suspect there was collusion between Facebook and Trump’s cronies for them to have released Instagram Reels when they did.

martin__ 6y ago
I thought the border restriction was just about having been in China in the last 14 days. Couldn't she get back into the US if she went to a different country first for 14 days?
- bmitc 6y ago
  No. The U.S. refuses to even process visas. Early on, the U.S. initially held her passport (a foreign one at that!) for over a month, preventing travel to countries she had valid visas to. When she eventually did once the passport was returned, the U.S. canceled her appointment, forcing travel back to China. Such foreign visas have now expired. The U.S. continues to allow appointments to be made at embassies and consulates and then cancels them right before. She actually falls into one of the conditional allowances that should get her back, based upon lawsuits from large employers, but the U.S. is not keeping appointments and not processing visas. So whatever they claim is allowed (which is not much), they are blocking that and more on a procedural level, just like they were doing since January before any bans were even in place. They don’t care. H1Bs and others (at least from China) are banned at a minimum until January 2021.

neves 6y ago

What really makes me afraid is that the USA Gov is so scared of a foreign social network app, they must really know how powerful are these apps. How would I trust the social networks under the American Gov?

jjcon 6y ago
> How would I trust the social networks under the American Gov? Presumably a country probably wouldn’t if they are an enemy of the western world.
- el_dev_hell 6y ago
  Such as China (see: Facebook, Youtube and Instagram).
asdff 6y ago
You wouldn't. It's not what tick tock would do, that can be achieved just as easily on any other social network as is routinely done, it's that you can't pay tick tock to do whatever you want to do like with an american company.

senderista 6y ago

Even when the actions of this administration seem facially justified, I always assume they are acting in bad faith.

tomlin 6y ago

For a country to purport itself to be about freedom...

jjcon 6y ago
Isn’t this just an embargo? The fact that it is on software is new but embargos have been a thing in just about every western democracy

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

trashcan_ 6y ago

I really hope there is more to this story than the public is privy to, and I hope we find out about it soon.

nullc 6y ago

I wonder what would happen if WeChat/TikTok opened up their protocols and let people connect with arbitrary software, including self written and open source stuff. The malware vector concerns would be gone. They could still spy on communication that wasn't E2E encrypted or impersonate users but that concern arises with essentially every communications service.

TheDong 6y ago
I doubt that realistically it would make any difference. There being open source alternative apps to consume a service means exactly nothing to the officials pushing for this ban. The action seems to be politically motivated, and technical details like "the protocol is open" are not going to be understood by politicians.
- nullc 6y ago
  Months before the executive branch took notice there was widespread outcry in computer security circles about tiktok, including on HN. Tiktok was a toxic malware vector, until the executive branch took notice, then it suddenly became a poor victim of political persecution.
- chrchang523 6y ago
  It wouldn't make a difference if only client code was open-sourced, sure. But if the entire system was open for Americans to peruse and operate their shards of, that might be a different story. Not saying that is practical, but I've never seen an objection on nationalist grounds to the fully open-source code I wrote from China while employed by a Chinese company in 2012-14.

Simulacra 6y ago

Under what analogy might the United States be justified in doing this?

mrlonglong 6y ago

This, I'm afraid, is purely Trump's vindinctive revenge on tiktokkers as a million of them wrecked his rally by booking tickets to it and never showed. Isn't abusing his powers and dishonouring the Presidential Office an impeachable offence anyway?

ApolloFortyNine 6y ago

Wechat has an inherent advantage that in order to chat in China or too chat with anyone living in China, you must use wechat. No American or European chatting app has this same benefit. And since chatting apps and social media in general tends to gravitate to the service with the most users, this puts wechat in a great position. Why use wechat to message your friend in China and WhatsApp to message the rest of the world, when you can just use wechat for both?

bamboozled 6y ago

What happens when the next one comes along ? Does that just get banned too? It wouldn’t really been hard to imagine they take almost the same codebase rebrand and relaunch.

hijklmno 6y ago

When China does not allow foreign companies to operate in their land (Facebook, Amazon, and a host of other companies) then why should we allow their companies to exist here?

blackrock 6y ago

So, we are supposed to have a congress that deliberates and passes laws. This is the notion that we are a society of laws. However, here, we have a president that acts by decree, similar to a dictator. No deliberations. No industry consultations. Nothing. Just some vague excuse that this is a national security issue, so no further questions are allowed. Welcome to the new Totalitarian States of America.

stevespang 6y ago

. . . the Chinese government strictly limits what U.S. tech companies can do in China. . . and India has already banned and restricted dozens of Chinese apps, as punishment over the conflict in the Himalayas. No lawsuit against India in that country, would be a waste of time.

zepto 6y ago

This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with foreign policy. China doesn’t allow US social apps. For historical reasons to do with attempts to establish trust, the US has allowed Chinese social apps. That trust is arguably no longer reasonable to hold. It is entirely reasonable for the US to want to trade with China on an equal footing. It’s notable that China is the worlds largest economy, and proclaims the superiority of their socialist system over western democracy. Obviously the US claims to be the worlds largest economy, and proclaims the superiority of western democracy over socialism. Regardless of who is right, there is no legitimate argument supporting a continued imbalance in the playing field. Trump may be doing a stupid and clumsy thing here, but the motivations seem reasonable.