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Commerce Department Prohibits WeChat and TikTok Transactions

280 points by JacobHenner 6y ago

curt15 6y ago
This is why, despite Apple's admirable record of OS updates, I refuse to buy a computer that's locked into a single source of software.
jocro 6y ago
Salient points here: --- As of September 20, 2020, the following transactions are prohibited: 1. Any provision of service to distribute or maintain the WeChat or TikTok mobile applications, constituent code, or application updates through an online mobile application store in the U.S.; 2. Any provision of services through the WeChat mobile application for the purpose of transferring funds or processing payments within the U.S. As of September 20, 2020, for WeChat and as of November 12, 2020, for TikTok, the following transactions are prohibited: 1. Any provision of internet hosting services enabling the functioning or optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; 2. Any provision of content delivery network services enabling the functioning or optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; 3. Any provision directly contracted or arranged internet transit or peering services enabling the function or optimization of the mobile application within the U.S.; 4.Any utilization of the mobile application’s constituent code, functions, or services in the functioning of software or services developed and/or accessible within the U.S. --- That last piece especially is quite concerning, and seems like a clear overreach of federal authority, no? Don't know that I've ever seen execution of software alone as an enforceable offense, and as written it seems to outlaw even opening up the app if you previously have it downloaded.
- gruez 6y ago
  >1. Any provision of service to distribute or maintain the WeChat or TikTok mobile applications, constituent code, or application updates through an online mobile application store in the U.S.; Does that mean the two apps are essentially banned from iOS?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - AgloeDreams 6y ago
    Yes.
- benburleson 6y ago
  I'm curious how that last part is possibly enforced.
  - baryphonic 6y ago
    It seems at least as enforceable as GPL terms.
    - pc86 6y ago
      So not at all?
  - bilbo0s 6y ago
    Apple reviews apps anyway, so that last bit could be enforced at the review stage. Android? You're right. I'm not seeing how they enforce that? Of course, one obvious solution is to force all the app stores to have some sort of review process that verifies all of the apps are functioning in a manner consistent with, um, "US government policy". Just depends on how far the guys in the Trump administration want to go.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> 2. Any provision of content delivery network services enabling the functioning or optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; That's the big one. That would suggest blocking by ISPs, something that is technically not easy and legally troubling. Do ISPs now have to block the activities of Chinese phones traveling to the US? That will take effort.
  - trillic 6y ago
    They’ll just use edge locations in Canada
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      Canada and the US are pretty integrated. Do US ISPs need to block WeChat traffic that is transiting the US, say coming from China to a user standing in Canada or the UK? That sort of blocking could have serious impacts beyond wechat/tiktok.
  - lgats 6y ago
    I would not interpret this as ISP blocking, just no peering or CDN services by U.S. companies/servers.
- jelling 6y ago
  How could we have an effective federal government if the execution of code is somehow exempt from their oversight? That would be a giant loophole. Also, pretty certain the execution of a worm or other malicious software is likewise illegal, whether it be by the execution or the result.
  - Vivtek 6y ago
    This is analogous to saying it would be impossible to have an effective federal government if what people say is somehow exempt from their oversight. That would be a giant loophole. Which, true, is in fact an argument often made. Software execution itself is not the issue. Criminal intent is the issue.
- AgloeDreams 6y ago
  Could any of these items be used to prosecute VPN providers?
- kanox 6y ago
  Does this affect users outside the US?
  - catacombs 6y ago
    A U.S. government department taking actions on behalf of the U.S. government for the U.S. population. What do you think?
    - kanox 6y ago
      I think it's not clear if Google or Apple can keep distributing WeChat and TikTok outside the US.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
excalibur 6y ago
> The President has provided until November 12 for the national security concerns posed by TikTok to be resolved. If they are, the prohibitions in this order may be lifted. Not seeing this bit being discussed elsewhere. The whole Oracle deal may not be dead after all.
- Mindless2112 6y ago
  Anything less than a sale will not assuage concerns, and the Chinese government has prevented TikTok from being sold. So no, it's dead.
crazygringo 6y ago
From the related NYT article [1]: > The prohibitions raise the question of whether Google and Apple, the major operators of American app stores, could sue the administration. > Tech companies have made clear that they don’t like the idea of blocking apps without a more organized policy process, and have suggested that they see this as a First Amendment issue, said Adam Segal, a cybersecurity expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. > Mr. Segal said it was not entirely clear why the administration had chosen to go after these two Chinese services, and not other similar ones. “A lot of it just feels to me to be improvisational,” he said. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/18/business/trump-tik-tok-wechat-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/18/business/trump-tik-tok-we...
- eggsnbacon1 6y ago
  > Tech companies have made clear that they don’t like the idea of blocking apps without a more organized policy process, and have suggested that they see this as a First Amendment issue, said Adam Segal, a cybersecurity expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. Yet they're both perfectly fine with blocking apps for arbitrary reasons citing "app store policy". Lets be blunt here, whether you agree with the Tiktok issue or not, for Apple and Google this is purely a money issue. They are probably afraid this will increase support for third party app stores among the masses
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Yes! I completely agree that this is a free speech issue, but that's also my (primary) issue with not allowing side-loading on iOS.
  - pc86 6y ago
    > Yet they're both perfectly fine with blocking apps for arbitrary reasons citing "app store policy". Phrased less disingenuously: Private companies are fine making decisions based on their own internal policies, as opposed to blocking certain apps based on nebulous requests/pseudo-demands from the government.
    - 6y ago
Firebrand 6y ago
What good is temporarily banning TikTok if Oracle and Walmart are taking majority ownership? The user base will see the headlines that it’s being banned and then they’ll move to a rival service again like they did during the first scare. Especially since Triller just poached TikTok’s most popular creator, Charli D’Amelio, earlier this week. That coveted preteen demographic might never come back. It’s poisoning the well for Oracle.
- Miner49er 6y ago
  Under the proposed deal, Oracle is not taking majority ownership.
  - Firebrand 6y ago
    My mistake. I left out the investment firms like Sequoia Capital, General Atlantic and Coatue, which would put majority ownership in U.S. hands. That’s what the Trump administration wants all along anyway.
    - hestefisk 6y ago
      But are they getting it? I thought it was just a somewhat vague ‘partnership’ between Oracle and TikTok.
- Larrikin 6y ago
  TikTok is a fad app, WeChat is the actual important app being targeted.
- voidmain0001 6y ago
  Why is preteen a coveted demographic for a business? Are you able to point me to something I can read that would explain why a business wants to court what to me seems like a financially handcuffed group? I understand that preteens can influence their guardians into making a purchase for a toy or some other small ticket item, but they're not going to influence big ticket purchases. Or do they?
whoevercares 6y ago
So could I switch region on App Store and download it to my phone within US? Or that’s physically blocked at the networking layer??
- chrischen 6y ago
  It’s possible they may be forced to detect by IP, at which point using a VPN may be necessary.
  - whoevercares 6y ago
    Smells like an US version of GFW (but much benign, totally not Trying to make a comparison- don’t judge/downvote me)
detaro 6y ago
another thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515461
jariel 6y ago
I think there are legit issues with the CCP having access to massive amounts of US user data, particularly from WeChat. But the Commerce order does not highlight the risks, moreover, they don't bother to give specific examples of concern. The gov. should do a much, much better job at illustrating specific scenarios, cases, impacts, outcomes in order to legitimize the action.
- jimktrains2 6y ago
  I think there are legit issues with the US having access to a massive amount of US users' data, particularly from Facebook and Google.
  - jariel 6y ago
    That's also fair. But there are laws, policies, judicial procedures regarding how the US gov. can access that data, specifically a warrant would be required for access to information. Moreover, information is accessed on the basis of some ostensible crime. Aside from basic censorship of anything and everything, the CCP can use (and does) WeChat information for absolutely whatever purposes it chooses at any time. If you say something about Hong Kong protests on WeChat - you will be flagged (and censored) and every one of your peers will be flagged as well. Your career, ability to move freely, future job prospects are in jeopardy, let alone the possibility of completely arbitrary imprisoned. There is no 'justice system' to speak of within that framework. And of course, there are more basic issues of trade - there are zero foreign entities that would be able to operate in China on basic, civil terms. They all have to operate as organs of the state. The CCP ensures compliance of it's authoritarian policies by having units within private organizations specifically for that purpose. Have a read [1]. It's not a 'conspiracy' it's just how they operate. There's no way on earth we can allow those types of organizations to operate freely here. So yes - just as TT and WeChat are banned or changed hands, there should be more action to at least have more transparency on who, what and how the US can access information from FB etc.. This is right at the core of the issue of the globalization of information and it has to be addressed, there's no way around it. [1] https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-the-role-of-chinese-communist-party-committees/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-th...
danimal88 6y ago
I have conflicted feelings about this but I do think that the 'spin' is poor. China doesn't allow Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. behind the great firewall. Why not just say we are blocking their pseudo-government social apps to be at economic/market access parity. It seems accurate and fair. Spinning it as national security, while potentially true (really don't know), seems like an unnecessary narrative.
- angio 6y ago
  China banned these apps because they don't follow the Chinese law in regard to sharing data with the government (FB was banned after some protests where they didn't collaborate with the police). It follows that if the US wanted to ban Chinese apps the same way China does, they would need to either 1) prove that TikTok is breaking the current law 2) pass new, stricter, privacy laws so that TikTok cannot operate/be a threat without breaking the law.
  - ahiknsr 6y ago
    Does Chinese law also allow the government to hack into companies when they don't cooperate with government? " In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google." https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...
    - sbmthakur 6y ago
      Companies operating within PRC's borders have it much worse: https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas-cybersecurity-law-update-lets-state-agencies-pen-test-local-companies/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas-cybersecurity-law-updat...
  - Aunche 6y ago
    Even if a foreign website complies with all of arbitrary rules in China, the government will ban them with no warning and explanation. Sometimes they get restored, but the damage is already done. Even Apple is not immune and ITunes got shut down in China. https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/23/18195200/microsoft-bing-search-engine-blocked-in-china-internet-censorship https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/23/18195200/microsoft-bing-s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store
Sodaware 6y ago
And iPhones with TikTok pre-installed are already going up on eBay.
- jordache 6y ago
  it's dumb. after nov 12, tiktok traffic will be ended as well
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    And then you'll just have to use a VPN, a proxy, or an alternate DNS depending on how it's made. Big deal.
    - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
      How big an overlap do you think the TikTok market and the "willing and able to set up and pay for a VPN on their phone" market is?
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Actually, quite big. And a VPN likely wouldn't be needed at all, it's a worst case scenario. In any case, if people are willing to pay for an iPhone with TikTok pre-installed, they're willing to pay 2$ a month (or less) for a VPN.
      - radicaldreamer 6y ago
        Well, it's about to get a lot bigger. For most teens, it would be trivial to learn.
    - tanilama 6y ago
      In US Would say the CDN will hurt TikTok the most.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        You know, just using a foreign CDN works. It's not optimal, but it works surprisingly well.
drummer 6y ago
This is why app stores and locked platforms such as Apple's are dangerous. Users are going to have difficulty installing banned apps. Sure, wechat and tik tok are basically spyware but this is just the beginning. Pretty soon other apps are going to follow. One day signal might be on the list.
- abc-xyz 6y ago
  This is why I’ve been supporting Apple and their App Store. It’s the most effective way to isolate an evil, authoritarian regime. Right now there’s zero reason to believe that the administration would target apps outside of China, and as long as that continue to be the case then we should cheer them on and be grateful we finally have a world leader willing and capable of standing up to China.
drummer 6y ago
> it will be illegal to host or transfer internet traffic associated with WeChat". I hope people realize how dangerous these developments are.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Pretty much means the Great American Firewall, doesn't it? Now Americans are going to have to use foreign VPNs too.
- newacct583 6y ago
  They don't. It's absolutely horrifying the extent to which posters even here want to treat this as a legitimate subject worthy of debate. The executive branch, with minimal warning, minimal justification, less than seven weeks out from an election, is just capriciously deciding to ban popular platforms for online interaction. There's no congressional oversight, there's no proposed legislation, it's not even a request to a court. It's just, "poof", you're banned. Of platforms that have hundreds of millions of users in the country! If that doesn't scare you imagine what your "enemies" might do with that power. I mean, it's true that I too don't personally don't see much value in these platforms and am genuinely confused by TikTok. But... yikes. People: this is a disaster. And once that power is uncorked it's not going back in the bottle.
  - coldcode 6y ago
    TikTok is one thing, but WeChat is essentially an operating system for everyone in China. I wonder if they will demand WeChat be removed from the App Store everywhere. Given you can't do any commerce, a US company (like Apple) likely cannot comply with this ruling without banning the whole app.
    - Udik 6y ago
      At which point I think China should ban iPhones. You cannot allow a company to sell to your country a product from which your country's most important applications are banned.
jordache 6y ago
ha people in the US have to VPN now, to bypass the Great Trump Wall of U.S.?
- bamboozled 6y ago
  My thoughts exactly, the rest of the world will continue posting funny videos while Americans come up with creative ways to get around this.
- zigh 6y ago
  haha... build more walls... Bring the world back to isolation, then what follows? Wars, and destruction of what we have accomplished after the two world wars. Beware of the slippery slope, my friends. It sickens me to see people using silly rhetorics to rationalize this kind of dangerous moves: * We are doing this for your security... * Because C has been bad, we need to do the same BAD things... * We should attack Q because we believe they are planning something bad... ... Very disappointed, I thought democracy is better than this. What difference do you make when you adopt the same approach that you criticized? As far as I know, there are many people in China who once almost believe in democracy and freedom of speech, who managed to get across the Great Fire Wall, end up facing the same Great Trump Wall.
- hujun 6y ago
  there are already quite some VPN providers in China to provide service to people outside China to get back in, it was mainly for oversea Chinese to consume music/shows only available in China (believe it or not, China now has very strong copyright protection so those content are blocked from outside of China) but now these VPN service could be used to get around Trump wall
langitbiru 6y ago
I wonder whether it is possible to build TikTok as a web application so US citizens can use TikTok web application instead of TikTok mobile application? You know, Netflix has a web app and a mobile app. Of course, I'm aware that US could block the tiktok web URL.
- kerng 6y ago
  Current act being put in place seems to include the scenario
  - xigency 6y ago
    So we would literally install a national firewall to enforce this policy? Regardless of the particulars, the big picture view of this is not pretty. Is there a legal group looking to challenge this yet, like the EFF?
kodablah 6y ago
This is disappointing yet expected from the executive. What's more disappointing is watching the thunderous applause from technologists here and elsewhere as software is outlawed which is not otherwise illegal and is not being litigated as illegal. We should not cheer on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms. Content is one thing, physical equipment another, but algorithms should be borderless. Most in the community disagree with encryption export restrictions, why can't they similarly disagree with software import restrictions? 2A groups recognize slippery slope precedents, why can't technologists? If the content/data is being harvested and/or managed illegally, then make that illegal and/or prosecute under that pretense (even if the evidence is subject to national security non-disclosure). Otherwise, it's obvious this is political posturing at the cost of digital freedom. It should be as widely condemned as government surveillance has been. (reposted from the now-buried https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515461)
- vsareto 6y ago
  >why can't they similarly disagree with software import restrictions? It's easier to verify what a borderless, open algorithm does. It's a lot harder to do that with packaged software. Has TikTok posted the source of their app publicly the same as those borderless and open algorithms? Can we verify what we install is the same as that posted source with no changes? You can ban finished products without banning their constituent parts. American companies probably do many of the things that Tiktok does, but this is political and that's where the unfairness comes from.
  - drchopchop 6y ago
    So, if American companies quietly send user data to repressive governments, that's totally fine? What if it was sending voter data to Russian state actors?
    - vsareto 6y ago
      No, that's why I said it was political unfairness.
shadowgovt 6y ago
A telling quote comes to us from the Commerce Secretary, via reporting by the New York Times: """What they collect are data on locality, data on what you are streaming toward, what your preferences are, what you are referencing, every bit of behavior that the American side is indulging in becomes available to whoever is watching on the other side.""" Well, shit. If that's the concern, I hope nobody's told them about blogs, YouTube, or the Internet.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Of course, that's not the concern, the concern is that they don't get that data, somebody else does. It's pure hypocrisy. They could have done the right thing by passing sweeping privacy laws that every company would be subjected to, but in reality the goal is to maintain the monopoly of the USG on espionage.
  - bosswipe 6y ago
    I think the real concern is that social networks can be used for mass political opinion manipulation. Algorithmic recommendations and deplatforming have become political battlegrounds and the power of the social media companies is recognized more and more as being immense.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      > I think the real concern is that social networks can be used for mass political opinion manipulation Again, the concern is not that that is happening, but that it's happening by people not under control of the US elite. The hyper-partisan news organisations of the US engage in "opinion manipulation" just fine, as does Facebook.
      - bosswipe 6y ago
        Correct. The difference between Facebook and Tiktok is who can apply pressure and in what ways. For example many people believe that Trump's antitrust moves against Google are also political, different situation different techniques but same goal, a battle over the control of social networks.
sudosysgen 6y ago
It's not just a ban on import, but also a ban on execution! It's insane overreach. The government should have the power to manage armies, fiscal policies, and so on, but giving the State the power to decide which algorithms I should be allowed to run on my own computer is insane.
- dragonelite 6y ago
  Its not even that, Pompeo already talked about a quasi US version of the great firewall called the Clean network. Its kinda weird seeing the US being afraid of competition. Kinda had hoped that the scenario Kai Fu Lee wrote about in his book "AI superpowers" wouldn't happen that the tech world would bifurcate into the East vs the West.
  - ericmay 6y ago
    Eh I don’t think the US is afraid of competition, but what competition exactly? Chinese companies can freely operate in the US, but American companies can’t freely operate in China? Obviously that isn’t going to go on forever. None of this would be happening if Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. we’re allowed to operate in China like TikTok is/was allowed to operate in the US.
    - angio 6y ago
      Chinese companies can operate in America as long as they follow American laws, likewise American companies can operate in China as long as they follow Chinese laws. Since America is a freer society that China, it follows that Chinese companies are more free to operate in America. The solution is obviously not to make America less free, but that's the path they've been going down for the past 20 years so no big surprise. If the American government were concerned about their citizens privacy they would have passed stricter privacy regulations and only then banned companies that didn't comply.
      - ericmay 6y ago
        > Chinese companies can operate in America as long as they follow American laws, likewise American companies can operate in China as long as they follow Chinese laws. Are you sure? What law does Youtube and Twitter need to follow to be allowed to operate in China? > The solution is obviously not to make America less free I don't view banning TikTok and WeChat as making America less free. We can just make our own. And we're only doing this to China and it's deserved. > If the American government were concerned about their citizens privacy they would have passed stricter privacy regulations and only then banned companies that didn't comply. Well, that's the wrong phrasing. If American citizens were concerned they would make their government pass stricter privacy regulations. But I don't believe that this is mutually exclusive to also banning Chinese companies due to other reasons as highlighted above.
foota 6y ago
I'm really confused about why the adminstration is doing this right before the election, seems like annoying a bunch of young people is a great way to get out the democratic vote.
- jonplackett 6y ago
  I guess looking 'tough on china' gets out a different vote. Plus LITERALLY ANYTHING to distract from how bad the Covid response is going.
  - symlinkk 6y ago
    We are almost recovered from COVID, I don’t think it’s that.
    - jonplackett 6y ago
      I wish I shared your optimism. 2nd spike is coming.
    - root_axis 6y ago
      Um what? Based on what criteria?
      - jonplackett 6y ago
        Based on Donald Trump speeches only.
    - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
      How? Deaths are still fairly constant https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/index.html#trends_dailytrends https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/index.html#trends_d...
    - vernie 6y ago
      Shirley you jest.
- 6y ago
curiousllama 6y ago
From a policy perspective, the states HAS to say this. Wisdom of the particular policy aside, once a country makes a really bold demand - "do X or we'll do Y" - they can't back down without losing a tremendous amount of credibility. If you don't follow through on your threats, they're meaningless; if your threats aren't meaningful, only action is. Action is more expensive, so it costs you more to accomplish a goal, so you can accomplish less. I happen to think this particular policy is unwise (dude, you need allies, and you think Europe won't help you regulate tech? C'mon), but the US has committed. Barring judicial intervention, it would be more unwise to back down now.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hawthornio 6y ago
  Well I guess it’s a good thing we didn’t back down on building a wall and making Mexico pay for it by that logic. /s I don’t think this reasoning makes sense. Wouldn’t it be better for the US to back down, showing that we are judicial and fair country that doesn’t lash out in petty ways? Trump makes insane claims all the time; no one would take any notice if he didn’t follow through on this one either.
hnaccy 6y ago
Are Apple and Google going to fight this and leave the app up? I hope they do, I dislike president having power to ban services and apps at will.
shadowgovt 6y ago
"""While the threats posed by WeChat and TikTok are not identical, they are similar. Each collects vast swaths of data from users, including network activity, location data, and browsing and search histories. Each is an active participant in China’s civil-military fusion and is subject to mandatory cooperation with the intelligence services of the CCP.""" It's funny that they're saying that like Room 641A isn't public knowledge. Of course, when it's the NSA cloning data out of AT&T to spy for Uncle Sam, it's the good spying. ;)
- badwolf 6y ago
  /gestures vaguely at Facebook, Google, every single digital ad network... That's different though because china scary
  - anonymousab 6y ago
    US megacorps are not de jure organs of the state in the same way as the Chinese megacorps. That is, it is seen as more acceptable to have corporate dominance of society than it is to have government-directed and controlled corporate dominance of society. The two systems are not the same, ideologically and in function and methods. It's fair to think they are equally evil, of course.
  - prichino 6y ago
    As a non-American, better to live in a world with the US as the superpower than one with China on top.
    - angio 6y ago
      As an European, I'd rather have no foreign government collect data about me. Legislation like the CLOUD Act should get more backslash from European leaders.
- drchopchop 6y ago
  In the spectrum of "evil", I'd rather an NSA run by American citizens to have my data than the Chinese government. I can, in theory, at least elect representatives to change the policies of the NSA. I have no such power over China, and China is actively censoring and repressing citizens who even mildly criticize the state. How are those the same?
cwhiz 6y ago
Can Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, Google Chat, Slack, Discord, and others operate freely in China? If the answer to that question is no, then we should treat Chinese apps the exact same way that China treats American apps. Otherwise we're just getting hilariously abused. Edit: It's called reciprocity. The US can operate a free market and trade with other countries that also operate free markets. We cannot, and should not, allow the US free market to be abused by foreign governments. If China does not want American companies to operate in China the US should reciprocate. Otherwise we're just being taken advantage of. It's not a violation of American free market principles. Just look at the whole fiasco with AirBus subsidies. The US should only engage with foreign governments that respect free trade.
- kodablah 6y ago
  This is a cost of liberty, as is disagreeable speech, anti-government literature, etc. Opponents of those have long cried "we're getting abused" to stifle such things. One hopes your attitude towards reciprocity stops at software. "we should treat Chinese [NOUN] the exact same way that China treats American [NOUN]" is a scary Mad Lib.
  - eganist 6y ago
    Not sure I agree with this. Intolerance of intolerance is a hallmark of a tolerant society, and we see it everywhere with bans against inciteful speech — if we're to use that example. If China and other governments are intolerant of our content, code, and signals, why should we be tolerant of theirs?
    - samthecoy 6y ago
      This is a misapplication of Popper's tolerance paradox. You do not describe our "being intolerant of their intolerance of our products (content, code, and signals)", but rather our "being intolerant of their products (content, code, and signals".
      - 6y ago
sidibe 6y ago
If this stick, it could be very bad for Apple. This is something that can make lots of people switch off of iPhones. Millions of Chinese abroad probably want to have sideloading WeChat as an option
- balola 6y ago
  It's easier to work around than you think, it didn't stop Chinese from installing banned VPN tools on iPhones afterall, all you need is shared or registered foreign Apple IDs.
bosswipe 6y ago
I've been suspicious of Trump's motivations on Tiktok ever since the story came out about teens using tiktok to disrupt a Trump rally in June https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/21/politics/tiktok-trump-tulsa-rally/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/21/politics/tiktok-trump-tulsa-r...
aaron695 6y ago
So we have all weekend to find a security exploit. That as of Monday can't be patched in the USA?
Semaphor 6y ago
I’m reading a lot about reciprocity. I don’t really know about international trade, does anyone have other examples where US reciprocity includes banning (specifically, not because they are breaking a law) certain goods? And are there examples of consumer goods amongst them?
xnx 6y ago
Would be nice if we could turn this into an argument over data portability. If there was a service an app that migrated data out of TikTok to a clone service, I'd switch. Imagine if users could easily move their posts, photos, friends, etc. out of Facebook to another system.
freddybobs 6y ago
So thinking beyond their stated reasoning - which doesn't make much sense unless they do something similar to facebook and co, which they won't - makes me wonder. With this administration everything is overtly political and typically defensive and/or misdirection. * To ban something 'from China' appeals to his base. * Tiktok was used to 'humiliate' the president at his Tulsa 'comeback rally' * Trump is having 'issues' with Twitter and to a lesser extent Facebook and other social media. They are marking and removing posts for example. https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/08/01/is-this-the-real-reason-why-trump-wants-to-ban-tiktok/#3960f9a44aed https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/08/01/is-this-t... Perhaps the larger theme here is to fire a warning shot at Twitter, Facebook and to a lesser extent Google. If you mess with us and don't do what we want - we can and will shut you down. Because 'national security'. Does that seem a leap? Not really because foreign entities (in particular Russia) actively and successfully use social media, against US interests. Is this good? No. It's really bad. This is classic Trump - distracting, destructive, coercing, nonsensical, abusive and chaotic. With even a small amount of thought it can be seen to be smoke and mirrors. A strong argument can be made that social media is a big problem in the US, for a variety of reasons, including national security. That this step is nothing to do with trying to fix that, and everything to do with the failing and flailing administration.
imchillyb 6y ago
> Tencent is the world's largest video game vendor, as well as one of the most financially valuable companies. It is among the largest social media, venture capital, and investment corporations. Its services include social network, music, web portals, e-commerce, mobile games, internet services, payment systems, smartphones, and multiplayer online games. Is it any wonder /at all/ why the US Federal government, and every single competitor in the US is worried about them? Chinese Government is Tencent is Wechat, Fortnite, PubG along with many other Game&Tech companies. Allowing more influence in our markets, by the Chinese government is a /horri-bad/ idea; period. Blah blah blah, tech companies. Blah blah blah, open markets. You DO realize how large a threat to open markets the Chinese State is, right? https://www.wired.com/story/chinese-hackers-taiwan-semiconductor-industry-skeleton-key/ https://www.wired.com/story/chinese-hackers-taiwan-semicondu... Right?!?!?
naiveprogrammer 6y ago
I have no doubt that had TikTok been a Russian app and its ultimate stakeholder were the Russian government, some of you here would have no problem with the ban. I am really tired of the double standard. But most importantly, what the US is applying is plain and old-fashioned Reciprocity trade rules. It is a completely valid and accepted course of action. If China closes its market to US-based social network companies, then the US should do the same. It happens everywhere and you don't see people screaming bloody murder because of it. In my opinion, it is about time. Not only we are creating a disadvantage to our local companies (FB, Whatsapp, etc), we are inviting a hostile agent to openly collect information on our citizens. I understand that some here want a more stringent policy concerning privacy and data collection. I think it is a fair point, but it is not mutually exclusive here.
sneak 6y ago
Once again we confront the terrible consequences of large corporate powers (e.g. App Store signing) being able to, in an instant upon legal demand or other state threat, function as a government censorship department. https://sneak.berlin/20200421/normalcy-bias/ https://sneak.berlin/20200421/normalcy-bias/ This is a huge ticking time bomb: insofar as the government can order large, centralized corporations to block, censor, alter, or otherwise impede your person-to-person communications, it's only a matter of time before it's a direct issue for health and safety, whether it be disaster, unrest, or war. Sure, it might be illegal, or might get unwound in court in the weeks or months or years to follow. But in the meantime, you're cut off from friends, family, and information, and your family might not survive the disaster or crisis that triggered the government demand long enough to have the wrong turned right in court, much later. This is an existential threat to a free society. The state must not be able to pick up the phone and have your communications tools shut off in bulk. What happens when there's a wildfire or a natural disaster or a war and the military demands that Facebook disable Messenger and WhatsApp and that Apple disable iMessage in a certain region, on national security grounds? We built a network designed to survive a nuclear war, and then somehow recentralized all of the node-to-node communications edges in an overlay network, squandering that whole benefit.
sneak 6y ago
Once again, we see "national security", which used to mean "public safety", being switched out to mean "state security": security of the government itself. They'd like there to be a monopoly on bulk surveillance of US persons: only companies friendly (or who can be forced to be friendly) to the US military are allowed to do it. Censoring people to further state security is abhorrent, and is yet another reason why businesses will increasingly choose to domicile outside of the US market. It's ridiculous that they can impose these sorts of heavyhanded restrictions on US companies.
perseusprime11 6y ago
Shutting TikTok is a good thing for the society at large.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
To all the people pontificating about who they'd rather have spy on them: This isn't about spying. This is about money and trade relations with china. The fact that the business in question has a side effect of spying is nice but it's not the primary motivator. TikTok is the first Chinese tech platform to strike it rich in the US and the administration sees itself as trying to give them a dose of their own medicine.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Bingo. ...and this point is made clear by the US demand that China fork over the TikTok source code - something China routinely demands of foreign companies.
throwaway4good 6y ago
I wonder what European country TikTok international will move to?
Simulacra 6y ago
Chinese American relations should be reciprocal, we should treat them the way they treat us. If our apps and services cannot operate freely in their country, they should not be allowed to abuse our country to collect data for their intelligence operations. I’m very confused why so many on HN are so pro China, despite it being the poster child for genocide and human rights abuses.
- president 6y ago
  > I’m very confused why so many on HN are so pro China, despite it being the poster child for genocide and human rights abuses. I go out of my way to comment on any posts related to China since it's a subject that I have studied immensely and am very interested in and I have noticed that anything I post that is slightly negative about China will get downvoted or flagged. I've chalked it up to the fact that HN is filled with people that are: - opposed to anything (and everything) Trump does including clamping down on China - opposed to anything (and everything) the US does. This includes US people and outsiders. - native Chinese HN users/bots downvoting any content that is negative about China
  - president 6y ago
    Looks like they've struck again ;). These people don't want discourse or facts, they just want to shape the narrative. Shame on them.
bamboozled 6y ago
The Great Wall of America Freedom is slipping away...
jampa 6y ago
I fear they honestly wont stop at app banning now that it has a precedent and apparently lots of people are cheering for it, like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... poem: "First they came for chinese apps, but I didn't speak up for I didn't use chinese apps.[...] Then they came for E2E apps..." Honestly this all could be mitigated if we had less dependency on app stores, if iOS could send notifications from mobile Safari, WeChat could just migrate to PWA and its most loyal users would follow. It seems like yesterday (it was) that people on HN were supporting a digital boomer equivalency of not allowing notifications because the web apparently must always be a document serving thing just cause, and a UX problem of websites asking a lot for notification must be met with removal of the function.
dirtyid 6y ago
Is tiktok web getting the ban hammer as well, will US implement their own great firewall in response. Wonder if the future is more native web apps to circumvent app store layer, which erode US control over mobile ecosystem.
president 6y ago
A lot of people in this thread are missing the important context behind all of this, which is that China has been declared an adversary to the US. It's not just your average case of data privacy issues. It's an issue of a hostile foreign adversary that is collecting data on users and utilizing these platforms as propaganda tools.
perennate 6y ago
When the US imposes tariffs on other countries, like Canada, we expect Canada to reciprocate. Reciprocal countermeasures are crucial for discouraging the original activity, whether it be tariffs or bans on foreign internet service companies. Thus, in response to the CCP's effective ban on foreign companies, we should absolutely expect India, the US, and other countries to reciprocate. Failing to reciprocate would only serve to encourage actors to engage more in the activity (whether it be tariffs or bans on internet services), and in this case lead to a more greatly fragmented internet. Just as reciprocal tariffs protect the free flow of trade by discouraging further tariffs, here, the US reciprocating CCP bans protects the free flow of information on the internet.
notmynormalacc5 6y ago
I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, the executive shouldn't have the ability to just randomly start "banning" apps without going through some sort of formal, public process to prove that these apps are facilitating criminal activity by the Chinese Communist Party. On the other hand, earlier this year my partner and I were on the receiving end of this criminal activity. A friend of mine who happened to have a politically-connected family in China and who suffered from borderline personality disorder became obsessed with me to an unhealthy extent. Using his family connection, he was able to download a huge report on my partner from the Chinese government's mass surveillance database. This report included every place we had ever been to when traveling in China (likely sourced from a Chinese map app), communications over WeChat between my partner and others, a list of every purchase we had made recently (likely sourced from Chinese payment services), personal details like knowing exactly which visa my partner was applying for (unclear how this information was obtained), and most shockingly, a list of every person my partner had ever had sex with (as if to somehow "prove" that my partner wasn't worthy of me) which data seems to have been sourced from Grindr or Tinder. Worst of all, my partner had produced some works that weren't overtly critical of the Chinese government but were on a subject that it could perhaps view as critical, and my friend-turned-stalker's government report noted this. The stalker said that if I don't promise to dump my partner, he will have my partner detained for three months in China on the basis of producing these critical works. The day at the airport was terrifying but ultimately we got out. I reported the stalker to the police and the FBI, and everything seems to be fine now, although my stalker's threat to punish me — for not dating him — by messing with my partner's family in China still stands. And of course I have to keep this all vague and anonymous since he threatened to do much worse if I share anything with the world about him or his political family. But this incident illustrates some pretty amazing things: the Chinese government is vacuuming up as much data as it can, though obviously it has much more access to its own citizens' data than ours; random Chinese nationals living in the United States who are lucky to have political connections in China have the ability to ruin the lives of US citizens using this vast database, which despite incredible sophistication apparently has few access safeguards; American dating apps like Grindr or Tinder, and possibly many more apps, have already been compromised and the Chinese government is building a network of Americans' personal relationships. Just think about the damage this stalker could have done if he were an intelligence officer and I had access to confidential information. Another interesting tidbit I left out from above is the technology side of this. My partner is not well-known at all, certainly not enough to warrant an actual person hunting down all this information, so apparently the Chinese government has some AI that goes around the Internet collecting all this information and making intelligent inferences about it — particularly regarding the works my partner had produced. This is unsurprising. More surprising: while I can't verify anything he said, the stalker told me that he needed to secure his iPhone in order to receive the government report, and that all it took was to give the secretary in China his phone number, after which his phone promptly restarted itself without any input from him. He claimed that this made his phone secure from US government surveillance. I didn't take this seriously as it sounded like BS. A most disturbing thing happened, however: unprompted by me, my Android phone (a top of the line model, not just some random low-end phone) randomly rebooted itself in the middle of a phone call with him. That shouldn't happen.
cblconfederate 6y ago
Time to take services gradually off US companies. Why get caught in the crossfire? I for one am glad my servers are in Germany.
dvduval 6y ago
Banning WeChat especially affects how average Chinese citizens view the US, and the overall effect is worse relations with China. In terms of bad actors, this will just create more of a black market, causing people who must do business with China to use apps and methods that they are less familiar with, enabling scammers.
- balola 6y ago
  WeChat isn't at all successful in the US, and it's known for its censorship even inside China, average Chinese are more concerned about iPhones and WeChat inside China. Tiktok on the other hand is a completely seperate product designed to obey foreign laws (not necessarily values), considered a spineless panderer back home, its disgraceful fall is what can be called a rude awakening.
  - lgats 6y ago
    In Chinese-American communities, WeChat is integral https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=accepts+wechat https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=accepts+wechat
    - balola 6y ago
      Foreign Chinese, usually rich and connected, are more often than not considered "traitors" by the masses, increasingly viewed with disdain, they are not even welcomed to visit China. >Trapped Abroad, China’s ‘Little Pinks’ Rethink Their Country >Young and patriotic, overseas students often defend their nation against its critics. But when many tried to return home during the pandemic, they became targets themselves. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/business/china-nationalist-students-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/business/china-nationalis...
ipsocannibal 6y ago
Lets hope someone doesn't have a now unpatchable zero day or two laying around for these apps.
ineedasername 6y ago
I'd much rather have strict privacy laws enforced with fines & bans than this type of ban by fiat. It would also be much less of a geo-political issue if it had the weight of law instead of just policy behind it: Pointing to a specific violation of law is much easier to justify than a vague sense that something with the app & data collection is not right. (and statutes can be much more consistently applied than vaguely justified ad-hoc policies)
matthewmcg 6y ago
The basis for this order is a statute that targets financial transactions, 50 USC 1702[1]. But the order claims to bar "provision of hosting services" and even "peering" after 9/20. This seems to plainly contradict Section 1702(b) of the statute which says the president has no authority to restrict "personal communication...which does not involve a transfer of anything of value" or importing or exporting "whether commercial or otherwise, regardless of format or medium of transmission...any information or informational materials[.]" Expect a quick legal challenge. If I were a government lawyer working on this, I would like to think that I would honor my oath of office and tell the President "sir, you don't have the authority to do this" rather than "yes sir, let me scour the US code for something that can be stretched to fit this," but this administration seems to be systematically purging anyone that doesn't follow the party line. [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1702 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1702
apta 6y ago
Good first step. Hopefully more stringent steps to follow. The CCP is murderous regime that needs to be dealt with.
helen___keller 6y ago
Putting aside the politics of it all, crappy day to be a part of the Chinese American community with friends and family overseas.
- bontaq 6y ago
  This seems like an underappreciated point, some of my coworkers have mentioned how much it sucks to have their main method of contact with family back in China stripped from them.
  - lgats 6y ago
    So long as they don't get a new iPhone, WeChat and TikTok are likely to continue functioning. They won't be able to be downloaded/updated from a US app store though. This order does seem to prohibit any [US] business from accepting WeChat pay or otherwise using WeChat for their services.
- jdm2212 6y ago
  If you were planning to get a new phone in the next year, buy it today while you can still install WeChat. On that note, off to the Apple Store... EDIT: I wonder if we'll be able to get around these restrictions while traveling -- Visit Canada for a weekend, download WeChat, and come home? Android users can just sideload apps in any case.
- chrisjc 6y ago
  Can't you still communicate with Whatsapp, Telegram or the myriad of other communication platforms?
  - jdm2212 6y ago
    Chinese people use WeChat pretty much exclusively. If you want to talk to someone there, it's WeChat or nothing. You can still make phone calls, but that's not how most people communicate these days.
  - idrios 6y ago
DLay 6y ago
TikTok’s interim CEO Vanessa Pappas asks Facebook and Instagram to support their litigation against Trump’s executive order: https://twitter.com/v_ness/status/1306956276761415681?s=21 https://twitter.com/v_ness/status/1306956276761415681?s=21
hujun 6y ago
come on, all these discussions focus on privacy, but this ban is never about protecting privacy.
supernova87a 6y ago
I remember when I was laughing at countries like Kyrgyzstan or Kenya or wherever, which "shut down the internet" for students taking exams or because the president for life decided it was a danger to public order. The arbitrariness and 3rd world country-ness of it all. Now I'm not laughing so much.
- xster 6y ago
  India might be a closer example to the western audience on HN "How India became the world’s leader in internet shutdowns" https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/08/19/1006359/india-internet-shutdowns-blackouts-pandemic-kashmir/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/08/19/1006359/india-in...
  - aszen 6y ago
    By the way the shutdown on high speed mobile internet is still ongoing in one territory, it's now been over a year
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
supernova87a 6y ago
By the way, how can ISPs shut down the traffic of WeChat? Is it using a specific port?

280 points by JacobHenner 6y ago

This is why, despite Apple's admirable record of OS updates, I refuse to buy a computer that's locked into a single source of software.

jocro 6y ago

Salient points here: --- As of September 20, 2020, the following transactions are prohibited: 1. Any provision of service to distribute or maintain the WeChat or TikTok mobile applications, constituent code, or application updates through an online mobile application store in the U.S.; 2. Any provision of services through the WeChat mobile application for the purpose of transferring funds or processing payments within the U.S. As of September 20, 2020, for WeChat and as of November 12, 2020, for TikTok, the following transactions are prohibited: 1. Any provision of internet hosting services enabling the functioning or optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; 2. Any provision of content delivery network services enabling the functioning or optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; 3. Any provision directly contracted or arranged internet transit or peering services enabling the function or optimization of the mobile application within the U.S.; 4.Any utilization of the mobile application’s constituent code, functions, or services in the functioning of software or services developed and/or accessible within the U.S. --- That last piece especially is quite concerning, and seems like a clear overreach of federal authority, no? Don't know that I've ever seen execution of software alone as an enforceable offense, and as written it seems to outlaw even opening up the app if you previously have it downloaded.

gruez 6y ago
>1. Any provision of service to distribute or maintain the WeChat or TikTok mobile applications, constituent code, or application updates through an online mobile application store in the U.S.; Does that mean the two apps are essentially banned from iOS?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- AgloeDreams 6y ago
  Yes.
benburleson 6y ago
I'm curious how that last part is possibly enforced.
- baryphonic 6y ago
  It seems at least as enforceable as GPL terms.
  - pc86 6y ago
    So not at all?
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  Apple reviews apps anyway, so that last bit could be enforced at the review stage. Android? You're right. I'm not seeing how they enforce that? Of course, one obvious solution is to force all the app stores to have some sort of review process that verifies all of the apps are functioning in a manner consistent with, um, "US government policy". Just depends on how far the guys in the Trump administration want to go.
sandworm101 6y ago
>> 2. Any provision of content delivery network services enabling the functioning or optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; That's the big one. That would suggest blocking by ISPs, something that is technically not easy and legally troubling. Do ISPs now have to block the activities of Chinese phones traveling to the US? That will take effort.
- trillic 6y ago
  They’ll just use edge locations in Canada
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    Canada and the US are pretty integrated. Do US ISPs need to block WeChat traffic that is transiting the US, say coming from China to a user standing in Canada or the UK? That sort of blocking could have serious impacts beyond wechat/tiktok.
- lgats 6y ago
  I would not interpret this as ISP blocking, just no peering or CDN services by U.S. companies/servers.
jelling 6y ago
How could we have an effective federal government if the execution of code is somehow exempt from their oversight? That would be a giant loophole. Also, pretty certain the execution of a worm or other malicious software is likewise illegal, whether it be by the execution or the result.
- Vivtek 6y ago
  This is analogous to saying it would be impossible to have an effective federal government if what people say is somehow exempt from their oversight. That would be a giant loophole. Which, true, is in fact an argument often made. Software execution itself is not the issue. Criminal intent is the issue.
AgloeDreams 6y ago
Could any of these items be used to prosecute VPN providers?
kanox 6y ago
Does this affect users outside the US?
- catacombs 6y ago
  A U.S. government department taking actions on behalf of the U.S. government for the U.S. population. What do you think?
  - kanox 6y ago
    I think it's not clear if Google or Apple can keep distributing WeChat and TikTok outside the US.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

excalibur 6y ago

> The President has provided until November 12 for the national security concerns posed by TikTok to be resolved. If they are, the prohibitions in this order may be lifted. Not seeing this bit being discussed elsewhere. The whole Oracle deal may not be dead after all.

Mindless2112 6y ago
Anything less than a sale will not assuage concerns, and the Chinese government has prevented TikTok from being sold. So no, it's dead.

crazygringo 6y ago

From the related NYT article [1]: > The prohibitions raise the question of whether Google and Apple, the major operators of American app stores, could sue the administration. > Tech companies have made clear that they don’t like the idea of blocking apps without a more organized policy process, and have suggested that they see this as a First Amendment issue, said Adam Segal, a cybersecurity expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. > Mr. Segal said it was not entirely clear why the administration had chosen to go after these two Chinese services, and not other similar ones. “A lot of it just feels to me to be improvisational,” he said. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/18/business/trump-tik-tok-wechat-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/18/business/trump-tik-tok-we...

eggsnbacon1 6y ago
> Tech companies have made clear that they don’t like the idea of blocking apps without a more organized policy process, and have suggested that they see this as a First Amendment issue, said Adam Segal, a cybersecurity expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. Yet they're both perfectly fine with blocking apps for arbitrary reasons citing "app store policy". Lets be blunt here, whether you agree with the Tiktok issue or not, for Apple and Google this is purely a money issue. They are probably afraid this will increase support for third party app stores among the masses
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Yes! I completely agree that this is a free speech issue, but that's also my (primary) issue with not allowing side-loading on iOS.
- pc86 6y ago
  > Yet they're both perfectly fine with blocking apps for arbitrary reasons citing "app store policy". Phrased less disingenuously: Private companies are fine making decisions based on their own internal policies, as opposed to blocking certain apps based on nebulous requests/pseudo-demands from the government.
  - 6y ago

Firebrand 6y ago

What good is temporarily banning TikTok if Oracle and Walmart are taking majority ownership? The user base will see the headlines that it’s being banned and then they’ll move to a rival service again like they did during the first scare. Especially since Triller just poached TikTok’s most popular creator, Charli D’Amelio, earlier this week. That coveted preteen demographic might never come back. It’s poisoning the well for Oracle.

Miner49er 6y ago
Under the proposed deal, Oracle is not taking majority ownership.
- Firebrand 6y ago
  My mistake. I left out the investment firms like Sequoia Capital, General Atlantic and Coatue, which would put majority ownership in U.S. hands. That’s what the Trump administration wants all along anyway.
  - hestefisk 6y ago
    But are they getting it? I thought it was just a somewhat vague ‘partnership’ between Oracle and TikTok.
Larrikin 6y ago
TikTok is a fad app, WeChat is the actual important app being targeted.
voidmain0001 6y ago
Why is preteen a coveted demographic for a business? Are you able to point me to something I can read that would explain why a business wants to court what to me seems like a financially handcuffed group? I understand that preteens can influence their guardians into making a purchase for a toy or some other small ticket item, but they're not going to influence big ticket purchases. Or do they?

whoevercares 6y ago

So could I switch region on App Store and download it to my phone within US? Or that’s physically blocked at the networking layer??

chrischen 6y ago
It’s possible they may be forced to detect by IP, at which point using a VPN may be necessary.
- whoevercares 6y ago
  Smells like an US version of GFW (but much benign, totally not Trying to make a comparison- don’t judge/downvote me)

detaro 6y ago

another thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515461

jariel 6y ago

I think there are legit issues with the CCP having access to massive amounts of US user data, particularly from WeChat. But the Commerce order does not highlight the risks, moreover, they don't bother to give specific examples of concern. The gov. should do a much, much better job at illustrating specific scenarios, cases, impacts, outcomes in order to legitimize the action.

jimktrains2 6y ago
I think there are legit issues with the US having access to a massive amount of US users' data, particularly from Facebook and Google.
- jariel 6y ago
  That's also fair. But there are laws, policies, judicial procedures regarding how the US gov. can access that data, specifically a warrant would be required for access to information. Moreover, information is accessed on the basis of some ostensible crime. Aside from basic censorship of anything and everything, the CCP can use (and does) WeChat information for absolutely whatever purposes it chooses at any time. If you say something about Hong Kong protests on WeChat - you will be flagged (and censored) and every one of your peers will be flagged as well. Your career, ability to move freely, future job prospects are in jeopardy, let alone the possibility of completely arbitrary imprisoned. There is no 'justice system' to speak of within that framework. And of course, there are more basic issues of trade - there are zero foreign entities that would be able to operate in China on basic, civil terms. They all have to operate as organs of the state. The CCP ensures compliance of it's authoritarian policies by having units within private organizations specifically for that purpose. Have a read [1]. It's not a 'conspiracy' it's just how they operate. There's no way on earth we can allow those types of organizations to operate freely here. So yes - just as TT and WeChat are banned or changed hands, there should be more action to at least have more transparency on who, what and how the US can access information from FB etc.. This is right at the core of the issue of the globalization of information and it has to be addressed, there's no way around it. [1] https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-the-role-of-chinese-communist-party-committees/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-th...

danimal88 6y ago

I have conflicted feelings about this but I do think that the 'spin' is poor. China doesn't allow Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. behind the great firewall. Why not just say we are blocking their pseudo-government social apps to be at economic/market access parity. It seems accurate and fair. Spinning it as national security, while potentially true (really don't know), seems like an unnecessary narrative.

angio 6y ago
China banned these apps because they don't follow the Chinese law in regard to sharing data with the government (FB was banned after some protests where they didn't collaborate with the police). It follows that if the US wanted to ban Chinese apps the same way China does, they would need to either 1) prove that TikTok is breaking the current law 2) pass new, stricter, privacy laws so that TikTok cannot operate/be a threat without breaking the law.
- ahiknsr 6y ago
  Does Chinese law also allow the government to hack into companies when they don't cooperate with government? " In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google." https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...
  - sbmthakur 6y ago
    Companies operating within PRC's borders have it much worse: https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas-cybersecurity-law-update-lets-state-agencies-pen-test-local-companies/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas-cybersecurity-law-updat...
- Aunche 6y ago
  Even if a foreign website complies with all of arbitrary rules in China, the government will ban them with no warning and explanation. Sometimes they get restored, but the damage is already done. Even Apple is not immune and ITunes got shut down in China. https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/23/18195200/microsoft-bing-search-engine-blocked-in-china-internet-censorship https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/23/18195200/microsoft-bing-s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store

Sodaware 6y ago

And iPhones with TikTok pre-installed are already going up on eBay.

jordache 6y ago
it's dumb. after nov 12, tiktok traffic will be ended as well
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  And then you'll just have to use a VPN, a proxy, or an alternate DNS depending on how it's made. Big deal.
  - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
    How big an overlap do you think the TikTok market and the "willing and able to set up and pay for a VPN on their phone" market is?
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Actually, quite big. And a VPN likely wouldn't be needed at all, it's a worst case scenario. In any case, if people are willing to pay for an iPhone with TikTok pre-installed, they're willing to pay 2$ a month (or less) for a VPN.
    - radicaldreamer 6y ago
      Well, it's about to get a lot bigger. For most teens, it would be trivial to learn.
  - tanilama 6y ago
    In US Would say the CDN will hurt TikTok the most.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      You know, just using a foreign CDN works. It's not optimal, but it works surprisingly well.

drummer 6y ago

This is why app stores and locked platforms such as Apple's are dangerous. Users are going to have difficulty installing banned apps. Sure, wechat and tik tok are basically spyware but this is just the beginning. Pretty soon other apps are going to follow. One day signal might be on the list.

abc-xyz 6y ago
This is why I’ve been supporting Apple and their App Store. It’s the most effective way to isolate an evil, authoritarian regime. Right now there’s zero reason to believe that the administration would target apps outside of China, and as long as that continue to be the case then we should cheer them on and be grateful we finally have a world leader willing and capable of standing up to China.

drummer 6y ago

> it will be illegal to host or transfer internet traffic associated with WeChat". I hope people realize how dangerous these developments are.

sudosysgen 6y ago
Pretty much means the Great American Firewall, doesn't it? Now Americans are going to have to use foreign VPNs too.
newacct583 6y ago
They don't. It's absolutely horrifying the extent to which posters even here want to treat this as a legitimate subject worthy of debate. The executive branch, with minimal warning, minimal justification, less than seven weeks out from an election, is just capriciously deciding to ban popular platforms for online interaction. There's no congressional oversight, there's no proposed legislation, it's not even a request to a court. It's just, "poof", you're banned. Of platforms that have hundreds of millions of users in the country! If that doesn't scare you imagine what your "enemies" might do with that power. I mean, it's true that I too don't personally don't see much value in these platforms and am genuinely confused by TikTok. But... yikes. People: this is a disaster. And once that power is uncorked it's not going back in the bottle.
- coldcode 6y ago
  TikTok is one thing, but WeChat is essentially an operating system for everyone in China. I wonder if they will demand WeChat be removed from the App Store everywhere. Given you can't do any commerce, a US company (like Apple) likely cannot comply with this ruling without banning the whole app.
  - Udik 6y ago
    At which point I think China should ban iPhones. You cannot allow a company to sell to your country a product from which your country's most important applications are banned.

jordache 6y ago

ha people in the US have to VPN now, to bypass the Great Trump Wall of U.S.?

bamboozled 6y ago
My thoughts exactly, the rest of the world will continue posting funny videos while Americans come up with creative ways to get around this.
zigh 6y ago
haha... build more walls... Bring the world back to isolation, then what follows? Wars, and destruction of what we have accomplished after the two world wars. Beware of the slippery slope, my friends. It sickens me to see people using silly rhetorics to rationalize this kind of dangerous moves: * We are doing this for your security... * Because C has been bad, we need to do the same BAD things... * We should attack Q because we believe they are planning something bad... ... Very disappointed, I thought democracy is better than this. What difference do you make when you adopt the same approach that you criticized? As far as I know, there are many people in China who once almost believe in democracy and freedom of speech, who managed to get across the Great Fire Wall, end up facing the same Great Trump Wall.
hujun 6y ago
there are already quite some VPN providers in China to provide service to people outside China to get back in, it was mainly for oversea Chinese to consume music/shows only available in China (believe it or not, China now has very strong copyright protection so those content are blocked from outside of China) but now these VPN service could be used to get around Trump wall

langitbiru 6y ago

I wonder whether it is possible to build TikTok as a web application so US citizens can use TikTok web application instead of TikTok mobile application? You know, Netflix has a web app and a mobile app. Of course, I'm aware that US could block the tiktok web URL.

kerng 6y ago
Current act being put in place seems to include the scenario
- xigency 6y ago
  So we would literally install a national firewall to enforce this policy? Regardless of the particulars, the big picture view of this is not pretty. Is there a legal group looking to challenge this yet, like the EFF?

kodablah 6y ago

This is disappointing yet expected from the executive. What's more disappointing is watching the thunderous applause from technologists here and elsewhere as software is outlawed which is not otherwise illegal and is not being litigated as illegal. We should not cheer on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms. Content is one thing, physical equipment another, but algorithms should be borderless. Most in the community disagree with encryption export restrictions, why can't they similarly disagree with software import restrictions? 2A groups recognize slippery slope precedents, why can't technologists? If the content/data is being harvested and/or managed illegally, then make that illegal and/or prosecute under that pretense (even if the evidence is subject to national security non-disclosure). Otherwise, it's obvious this is political posturing at the cost of digital freedom. It should be as widely condemned as government surveillance has been. (reposted from the now-buried https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24515461)

vsareto 6y ago
>why can't they similarly disagree with software import restrictions? It's easier to verify what a borderless, open algorithm does. It's a lot harder to do that with packaged software. Has TikTok posted the source of their app publicly the same as those borderless and open algorithms? Can we verify what we install is the same as that posted source with no changes? You can ban finished products without banning their constituent parts. American companies probably do many of the things that Tiktok does, but this is political and that's where the unfairness comes from.
- drchopchop 6y ago
  So, if American companies quietly send user data to repressive governments, that's totally fine? What if it was sending voter data to Russian state actors?
  - vsareto 6y ago
    No, that's why I said it was political unfairness.

shadowgovt 6y ago

A telling quote comes to us from the Commerce Secretary, via reporting by the New York Times: """What they collect are data on locality, data on what you are streaming toward, what your preferences are, what you are referencing, every bit of behavior that the American side is indulging in becomes available to whoever is watching on the other side.""" Well, shit. If that's the concern, I hope nobody's told them about blogs, YouTube, or the Internet.

sudosysgen 6y ago
Of course, that's not the concern, the concern is that they don't get that data, somebody else does. It's pure hypocrisy. They could have done the right thing by passing sweeping privacy laws that every company would be subjected to, but in reality the goal is to maintain the monopoly of the USG on espionage.
- bosswipe 6y ago
  I think the real concern is that social networks can be used for mass political opinion manipulation. Algorithmic recommendations and deplatforming have become political battlegrounds and the power of the social media companies is recognized more and more as being immense.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    > I think the real concern is that social networks can be used for mass political opinion manipulation Again, the concern is not that that is happening, but that it's happening by people not under control of the US elite. The hyper-partisan news organisations of the US engage in "opinion manipulation" just fine, as does Facebook.
    - bosswipe 6y ago
      Correct. The difference between Facebook and Tiktok is who can apply pressure and in what ways. For example many people believe that Trump's antitrust moves against Google are also political, different situation different techniques but same goal, a battle over the control of social networks.

sudosysgen 6y ago

It's not just a ban on import, but also a ban on execution! It's insane overreach. The government should have the power to manage armies, fiscal policies, and so on, but giving the State the power to decide which algorithms I should be allowed to run on my own computer is insane.

dragonelite 6y ago
Its not even that, Pompeo already talked about a quasi US version of the great firewall called the Clean network. Its kinda weird seeing the US being afraid of competition. Kinda had hoped that the scenario Kai Fu Lee wrote about in his book "AI superpowers" wouldn't happen that the tech world would bifurcate into the East vs the West.
- ericmay 6y ago
  Eh I don’t think the US is afraid of competition, but what competition exactly? Chinese companies can freely operate in the US, but American companies can’t freely operate in China? Obviously that isn’t going to go on forever. None of this would be happening if Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. we’re allowed to operate in China like TikTok is/was allowed to operate in the US.
  - angio 6y ago
    Chinese companies can operate in America as long as they follow American laws, likewise American companies can operate in China as long as they follow Chinese laws. Since America is a freer society that China, it follows that Chinese companies are more free to operate in America. The solution is obviously not to make America less free, but that's the path they've been going down for the past 20 years so no big surprise. If the American government were concerned about their citizens privacy they would have passed stricter privacy regulations and only then banned companies that didn't comply.
    - ericmay 6y ago
      > Chinese companies can operate in America as long as they follow American laws, likewise American companies can operate in China as long as they follow Chinese laws. Are you sure? What law does Youtube and Twitter need to follow to be allowed to operate in China? > The solution is obviously not to make America less free I don't view banning TikTok and WeChat as making America less free. We can just make our own. And we're only doing this to China and it's deserved. > If the American government were concerned about their citizens privacy they would have passed stricter privacy regulations and only then banned companies that didn't comply. Well, that's the wrong phrasing. If American citizens were concerned they would make their government pass stricter privacy regulations. But I don't believe that this is mutually exclusive to also banning Chinese companies due to other reasons as highlighted above.

foota 6y ago

I'm really confused about why the adminstration is doing this right before the election, seems like annoying a bunch of young people is a great way to get out the democratic vote.

jonplackett 6y ago
I guess looking 'tough on china' gets out a different vote. Plus LITERALLY ANYTHING to distract from how bad the Covid response is going.
- symlinkk 6y ago
  We are almost recovered from COVID, I don’t think it’s that.
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    I wish I shared your optimism. 2nd spike is coming.
  - root_axis 6y ago
    Um what? Based on what criteria?
    - jonplackett 6y ago
      Based on Donald Trump speeches only.
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    How? Deaths are still fairly constant https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/index.html#trends_dailytrends https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/index.html#trends_d...
  - vernie 6y ago
    Shirley you jest.
6y ago

curiousllama 6y ago

From a policy perspective, the states HAS to say this. Wisdom of the particular policy aside, once a country makes a really bold demand - "do X or we'll do Y" - they can't back down without losing a tremendous amount of credibility. If you don't follow through on your threats, they're meaningless; if your threats aren't meaningful, only action is. Action is more expensive, so it costs you more to accomplish a goal, so you can accomplish less. I happen to think this particular policy is unwise (dude, you need allies, and you think Europe won't help you regulate tech? C'mon), but the US has committed. Barring judicial intervention, it would be more unwise to back down now.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hawthornio 6y ago
Well I guess it’s a good thing we didn’t back down on building a wall and making Mexico pay for it by that logic. /s I don’t think this reasoning makes sense. Wouldn’t it be better for the US to back down, showing that we are judicial and fair country that doesn’t lash out in petty ways? Trump makes insane claims all the time; no one would take any notice if he didn’t follow through on this one either.

hnaccy 6y ago

Are Apple and Google going to fight this and leave the app up? I hope they do, I dislike president having power to ban services and apps at will.

shadowgovt 6y ago

"""While the threats posed by WeChat and TikTok are not identical, they are similar. Each collects vast swaths of data from users, including network activity, location data, and browsing and search histories. Each is an active participant in China’s civil-military fusion and is subject to mandatory cooperation with the intelligence services of the CCP.""" It's funny that they're saying that like Room 641A isn't public knowledge. Of course, when it's the NSA cloning data out of AT&T to spy for Uncle Sam, it's the good spying. ;)

badwolf 6y ago
/gestures vaguely at Facebook, Google, every single digital ad network... That's different though because china scary
- anonymousab 6y ago
  US megacorps are not de jure organs of the state in the same way as the Chinese megacorps. That is, it is seen as more acceptable to have corporate dominance of society than it is to have government-directed and controlled corporate dominance of society. The two systems are not the same, ideologically and in function and methods. It's fair to think they are equally evil, of course.
- prichino 6y ago
  As a non-American, better to live in a world with the US as the superpower than one with China on top.
  - angio 6y ago
    As an European, I'd rather have no foreign government collect data about me. Legislation like the CLOUD Act should get more backslash from European leaders.
drchopchop 6y ago
In the spectrum of "evil", I'd rather an NSA run by American citizens to have my data than the Chinese government. I can, in theory, at least elect representatives to change the policies of the NSA. I have no such power over China, and China is actively censoring and repressing citizens who even mildly criticize the state. How are those the same?

cwhiz 6y ago

Can Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, Google Chat, Slack, Discord, and others operate freely in China? If the answer to that question is no, then we should treat Chinese apps the exact same way that China treats American apps. Otherwise we're just getting hilariously abused. Edit: It's called reciprocity. The US can operate a free market and trade with other countries that also operate free markets. We cannot, and should not, allow the US free market to be abused by foreign governments. If China does not want American companies to operate in China the US should reciprocate. Otherwise we're just being taken advantage of. It's not a violation of American free market principles. Just look at the whole fiasco with AirBus subsidies. The US should only engage with foreign governments that respect free trade.

kodablah 6y ago
This is a cost of liberty, as is disagreeable speech, anti-government literature, etc. Opponents of those have long cried "we're getting abused" to stifle such things. One hopes your attitude towards reciprocity stops at software. "we should treat Chinese [NOUN] the exact same way that China treats American [NOUN]" is a scary Mad Lib.
- eganist 6y ago
  Not sure I agree with this. Intolerance of intolerance is a hallmark of a tolerant society, and we see it everywhere with bans against inciteful speech — if we're to use that example. If China and other governments are intolerant of our content, code, and signals, why should we be tolerant of theirs?
  - samthecoy 6y ago
    This is a misapplication of Popper's tolerance paradox. You do not describe our "being intolerant of their intolerance of our products (content, code, and signals)", but rather our "being intolerant of their products (content, code, and signals".
    - 6y ago

sidibe 6y ago

If this stick, it could be very bad for Apple. This is something that can make lots of people switch off of iPhones. Millions of Chinese abroad probably want to have sideloading WeChat as an option

balola 6y ago
It's easier to work around than you think, it didn't stop Chinese from installing banned VPN tools on iPhones afterall, all you need is shared or registered foreign Apple IDs.

bosswipe 6y ago

I've been suspicious of Trump's motivations on Tiktok ever since the story came out about teens using tiktok to disrupt a Trump rally in June https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/21/politics/tiktok-trump-tulsa-rally/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/21/politics/tiktok-trump-tulsa-r...

aaron695 6y ago

So we have all weekend to find a security exploit. That as of Monday can't be patched in the USA?

Semaphor 6y ago

I’m reading a lot about reciprocity. I don’t really know about international trade, does anyone have other examples where US reciprocity includes banning (specifically, not because they are breaking a law) certain goods? And are there examples of consumer goods amongst them?

xnx 6y ago

Would be nice if we could turn this into an argument over data portability. If there was a service an app that migrated data out of TikTok to a clone service, I'd switch. Imagine if users could easily move their posts, photos, friends, etc. out of Facebook to another system.

freddybobs 6y ago

So thinking beyond their stated reasoning - which doesn't make much sense unless they do something similar to facebook and co, which they won't - makes me wonder. With this administration everything is overtly political and typically defensive and/or misdirection. * To ban something 'from China' appeals to his base. * Tiktok was used to 'humiliate' the president at his Tulsa 'comeback rally' * Trump is having 'issues' with Twitter and to a lesser extent Facebook and other social media. They are marking and removing posts for example. https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/08/01/is-this-the-real-reason-why-trump-wants-to-ban-tiktok/#3960f9a44aed https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/08/01/is-this-t... Perhaps the larger theme here is to fire a warning shot at Twitter, Facebook and to a lesser extent Google. If you mess with us and don't do what we want - we can and will shut you down. Because 'national security'. Does that seem a leap? Not really because foreign entities (in particular Russia) actively and successfully use social media, against US interests. Is this good? No. It's really bad. This is classic Trump - distracting, destructive, coercing, nonsensical, abusive and chaotic. With even a small amount of thought it can be seen to be smoke and mirrors. A strong argument can be made that social media is a big problem in the US, for a variety of reasons, including national security. That this step is nothing to do with trying to fix that, and everything to do with the failing and flailing administration.

imchillyb 6y ago

> Tencent is the world's largest video game vendor, as well as one of the most financially valuable companies. It is among the largest social media, venture capital, and investment corporations. Its services include social network, music, web portals, e-commerce, mobile games, internet services, payment systems, smartphones, and multiplayer online games. Is it any wonder /at all/ why the US Federal government, and every single competitor in the US is worried about them? Chinese Government is Tencent is Wechat, Fortnite, PubG along with many other Game&Tech companies. Allowing more influence in our markets, by the Chinese government is a /horri-bad/ idea; period. Blah blah blah, tech companies. Blah blah blah, open markets. You DO realize how large a threat to open markets the Chinese State is, right? https://www.wired.com/story/chinese-hackers-taiwan-semiconductor-industry-skeleton-key/ https://www.wired.com/story/chinese-hackers-taiwan-semicondu... Right?!?!?

naiveprogrammer 6y ago

I have no doubt that had TikTok been a Russian app and its ultimate stakeholder were the Russian government, some of you here would have no problem with the ban. I am really tired of the double standard. But most importantly, what the US is applying is plain and old-fashioned Reciprocity trade rules. It is a completely valid and accepted course of action. If China closes its market to US-based social network companies, then the US should do the same. It happens everywhere and you don't see people screaming bloody murder because of it. In my opinion, it is about time. Not only we are creating a disadvantage to our local companies (FB, Whatsapp, etc), we are inviting a hostile agent to openly collect information on our citizens. I understand that some here want a more stringent policy concerning privacy and data collection. I think it is a fair point, but it is not mutually exclusive here.

sneak 6y ago

Once again we confront the terrible consequences of large corporate powers (e.g. App Store signing) being able to, in an instant upon legal demand or other state threat, function as a government censorship department. https://sneak.berlin/20200421/normalcy-bias/ https://sneak.berlin/20200421/normalcy-bias/ This is a huge ticking time bomb: insofar as the government can order large, centralized corporations to block, censor, alter, or otherwise impede your person-to-person communications, it's only a matter of time before it's a direct issue for health and safety, whether it be disaster, unrest, or war. Sure, it might be illegal, or might get unwound in court in the weeks or months or years to follow. But in the meantime, you're cut off from friends, family, and information, and your family might not survive the disaster or crisis that triggered the government demand long enough to have the wrong turned right in court, much later. This is an existential threat to a free society. The state must not be able to pick up the phone and have your communications tools shut off in bulk. What happens when there's a wildfire or a natural disaster or a war and the military demands that Facebook disable Messenger and WhatsApp and that Apple disable iMessage in a certain region, on national security grounds? We built a network designed to survive a nuclear war, and then somehow recentralized all of the node-to-node communications edges in an overlay network, squandering that whole benefit.

sneak 6y ago

Once again, we see "national security", which used to mean "public safety", being switched out to mean "state security": security of the government itself. They'd like there to be a monopoly on bulk surveillance of US persons: only companies friendly (or who can be forced to be friendly) to the US military are allowed to do it. Censoring people to further state security is abhorrent, and is yet another reason why businesses will increasingly choose to domicile outside of the US market. It's ridiculous that they can impose these sorts of heavyhanded restrictions on US companies.

perseusprime11 6y ago

Shutting TikTok is a good thing for the society at large.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

To all the people pontificating about who they'd rather have spy on them: This isn't about spying. This is about money and trade relations with china. The fact that the business in question has a side effect of spying is nice but it's not the primary motivator. TikTok is the first Chinese tech platform to strike it rich in the US and the administration sees itself as trying to give them a dose of their own medicine.

koheripbal 6y ago
Bingo. ...and this point is made clear by the US demand that China fork over the TikTok source code - something China routinely demands of foreign companies.

throwaway4good 6y ago

I wonder what European country TikTok international will move to?

Simulacra 6y ago

Chinese American relations should be reciprocal, we should treat them the way they treat us. If our apps and services cannot operate freely in their country, they should not be allowed to abuse our country to collect data for their intelligence operations. I’m very confused why so many on HN are so pro China, despite it being the poster child for genocide and human rights abuses.

president 6y ago
> I’m very confused why so many on HN are so pro China, despite it being the poster child for genocide and human rights abuses. I go out of my way to comment on any posts related to China since it's a subject that I have studied immensely and am very interested in and I have noticed that anything I post that is slightly negative about China will get downvoted or flagged. I've chalked it up to the fact that HN is filled with people that are: - opposed to anything (and everything) Trump does including clamping down on China - opposed to anything (and everything) the US does. This includes US people and outsiders. - native Chinese HN users/bots downvoting any content that is negative about China
- president 6y ago
  Looks like they've struck again ;). These people don't want discourse or facts, they just want to shape the narrative. Shame on them.

bamboozled 6y ago

The Great Wall of America Freedom is slipping away...

jampa 6y ago

I fear they honestly wont stop at app banning now that it has a precedent and apparently lots of people are cheering for it, like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... poem: "First they came for chinese apps, but I didn't speak up for I didn't use chinese apps.[...] Then they came for E2E apps..." Honestly this all could be mitigated if we had less dependency on app stores, if iOS could send notifications from mobile Safari, WeChat could just migrate to PWA and its most loyal users would follow. It seems like yesterday (it was) that people on HN were supporting a digital boomer equivalency of not allowing notifications because the web apparently must always be a document serving thing just cause, and a UX problem of websites asking a lot for notification must be met with removal of the function.

dirtyid 6y ago

Is tiktok web getting the ban hammer as well, will US implement their own great firewall in response. Wonder if the future is more native web apps to circumvent app store layer, which erode US control over mobile ecosystem.

president 6y ago

A lot of people in this thread are missing the important context behind all of this, which is that China has been declared an adversary to the US. It's not just your average case of data privacy issues. It's an issue of a hostile foreign adversary that is collecting data on users and utilizing these platforms as propaganda tools.

perennate 6y ago

When the US imposes tariffs on other countries, like Canada, we expect Canada to reciprocate. Reciprocal countermeasures are crucial for discouraging the original activity, whether it be tariffs or bans on foreign internet service companies. Thus, in response to the CCP's effective ban on foreign companies, we should absolutely expect India, the US, and other countries to reciprocate. Failing to reciprocate would only serve to encourage actors to engage more in the activity (whether it be tariffs or bans on internet services), and in this case lead to a more greatly fragmented internet. Just as reciprocal tariffs protect the free flow of trade by discouraging further tariffs, here, the US reciprocating CCP bans protects the free flow of information on the internet.

notmynormalacc5 6y ago

I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, the executive shouldn't have the ability to just randomly start "banning" apps without going through some sort of formal, public process to prove that these apps are facilitating criminal activity by the Chinese Communist Party. On the other hand, earlier this year my partner and I were on the receiving end of this criminal activity. A friend of mine who happened to have a politically-connected family in China and who suffered from borderline personality disorder became obsessed with me to an unhealthy extent. Using his family connection, he was able to download a huge report on my partner from the Chinese government's mass surveillance database. This report included every place we had ever been to when traveling in China (likely sourced from a Chinese map app), communications over WeChat between my partner and others, a list of every purchase we had made recently (likely sourced from Chinese payment services), personal details like knowing exactly which visa my partner was applying for (unclear how this information was obtained), and most shockingly, a list of every person my partner had ever had sex with (as if to somehow "prove" that my partner wasn't worthy of me) which data seems to have been sourced from Grindr or Tinder. Worst of all, my partner had produced some works that weren't overtly critical of the Chinese government but were on a subject that it could perhaps view as critical, and my friend-turned-stalker's government report noted this. The stalker said that if I don't promise to dump my partner, he will have my partner detained for three months in China on the basis of producing these critical works. The day at the airport was terrifying but ultimately we got out. I reported the stalker to the police and the FBI, and everything seems to be fine now, although my stalker's threat to punish me — for not dating him — by messing with my partner's family in China still stands. And of course I have to keep this all vague and anonymous since he threatened to do much worse if I share anything with the world about him or his political family. But this incident illustrates some pretty amazing things: the Chinese government is vacuuming up as much data as it can, though obviously it has much more access to its own citizens' data than ours; random Chinese nationals living in the United States who are lucky to have political connections in China have the ability to ruin the lives of US citizens using this vast database, which despite incredible sophistication apparently has few access safeguards; American dating apps like Grindr or Tinder, and possibly many more apps, have already been compromised and the Chinese government is building a network of Americans' personal relationships. Just think about the damage this stalker could have done if he were an intelligence officer and I had access to confidential information. Another interesting tidbit I left out from above is the technology side of this. My partner is not well-known at all, certainly not enough to warrant an actual person hunting down all this information, so apparently the Chinese government has some AI that goes around the Internet collecting all this information and making intelligent inferences about it — particularly regarding the works my partner had produced. This is unsurprising. More surprising: while I can't verify anything he said, the stalker told me that he needed to secure his iPhone in order to receive the government report, and that all it took was to give the secretary in China his phone number, after which his phone promptly restarted itself without any input from him. He claimed that this made his phone secure from US government surveillance. I didn't take this seriously as it sounded like BS. A most disturbing thing happened, however: unprompted by me, my Android phone (a top of the line model, not just some random low-end phone) randomly rebooted itself in the middle of a phone call with him. That shouldn't happen.

cblconfederate 6y ago

Time to take services gradually off US companies. Why get caught in the crossfire? I for one am glad my servers are in Germany.

dvduval 6y ago

Banning WeChat especially affects how average Chinese citizens view the US, and the overall effect is worse relations with China. In terms of bad actors, this will just create more of a black market, causing people who must do business with China to use apps and methods that they are less familiar with, enabling scammers.

balola 6y ago
WeChat isn't at all successful in the US, and it's known for its censorship even inside China, average Chinese are more concerned about iPhones and WeChat inside China. Tiktok on the other hand is a completely seperate product designed to obey foreign laws (not necessarily values), considered a spineless panderer back home, its disgraceful fall is what can be called a rude awakening.
- lgats 6y ago
  In Chinese-American communities, WeChat is integral https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=accepts+wechat https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=accepts+wechat
  - balola 6y ago
    Foreign Chinese, usually rich and connected, are more often than not considered "traitors" by the masses, increasingly viewed with disdain, they are not even welcomed to visit China. >Trapped Abroad, China’s ‘Little Pinks’ Rethink Their Country >Young and patriotic, overseas students often defend their nation against its critics. But when many tried to return home during the pandemic, they became targets themselves. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/business/china-nationalist-students-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/business/china-nationalis...

ipsocannibal 6y ago

Lets hope someone doesn't have a now unpatchable zero day or two laying around for these apps.

ineedasername 6y ago

I'd much rather have strict privacy laws enforced with fines & bans than this type of ban by fiat. It would also be much less of a geo-political issue if it had the weight of law instead of just policy behind it: Pointing to a specific violation of law is much easier to justify than a vague sense that something with the app & data collection is not right. (and statutes can be much more consistently applied than vaguely justified ad-hoc policies)

matthewmcg 6y ago

The basis for this order is a statute that targets financial transactions, 50 USC 1702[1]. But the order claims to bar "provision of hosting services" and even "peering" after 9/20. This seems to plainly contradict Section 1702(b) of the statute which says the president has no authority to restrict "personal communication...which does not involve a transfer of anything of value" or importing or exporting "whether commercial or otherwise, regardless of format or medium of transmission...any information or informational materials[.]" Expect a quick legal challenge. If I were a government lawyer working on this, I would like to think that I would honor my oath of office and tell the President "sir, you don't have the authority to do this" rather than "yes sir, let me scour the US code for something that can be stretched to fit this," but this administration seems to be systematically purging anyone that doesn't follow the party line. [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1702 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1702

apta 6y ago

Good first step. Hopefully more stringent steps to follow. The CCP is murderous regime that needs to be dealt with.

helen___keller 6y ago

Putting aside the politics of it all, crappy day to be a part of the Chinese American community with friends and family overseas.

bontaq 6y ago
This seems like an underappreciated point, some of my coworkers have mentioned how much it sucks to have their main method of contact with family back in China stripped from them.
- lgats 6y ago
  So long as they don't get a new iPhone, WeChat and TikTok are likely to continue functioning. They won't be able to be downloaded/updated from a US app store though. This order does seem to prohibit any [US] business from accepting WeChat pay or otherwise using WeChat for their services.
jdm2212 6y ago
If you were planning to get a new phone in the next year, buy it today while you can still install WeChat. On that note, off to the Apple Store... EDIT: I wonder if we'll be able to get around these restrictions while traveling -- Visit Canada for a weekend, download WeChat, and come home? Android users can just sideload apps in any case.
chrisjc 6y ago
Can't you still communicate with Whatsapp, Telegram or the myriad of other communication platforms?
- jdm2212 6y ago
  Chinese people use WeChat pretty much exclusively. If you want to talk to someone there, it's WeChat or nothing. You can still make phone calls, but that's not how most people communicate these days.
- idrios 6y ago

DLay 6y ago

TikTok’s interim CEO Vanessa Pappas asks Facebook and Instagram to support their litigation against Trump’s executive order: https://twitter.com/v_ness/status/1306956276761415681?s=21 https://twitter.com/v_ness/status/1306956276761415681?s=21

hujun 6y ago

come on, all these discussions focus on privacy, but this ban is never about protecting privacy.

supernova87a 6y ago

I remember when I was laughing at countries like Kyrgyzstan or Kenya or wherever, which "shut down the internet" for students taking exams or because the president for life decided it was a danger to public order. The arbitrariness and 3rd world country-ness of it all. Now I'm not laughing so much.

xster 6y ago
India might be a closer example to the western audience on HN "How India became the world’s leader in internet shutdowns" https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/08/19/1006359/india-internet-shutdowns-blackouts-pandemic-kashmir/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/08/19/1006359/india-in...
- aszen 6y ago
  By the way the shutdown on high speed mobile internet is still ongoing in one territory, it's now been over a year

deleted 6y ago

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supernova87a 6y ago

By the way, how can ISPs shut down the traffic of WeChat? Is it using a specific port?