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Six months in, N95 mask shortages persist
- s9w 6y ago> Trump officials have talked a lot about > President Trump consistently ignores > Trump administration downplays top notch "journalism"
- AlexTWithBeard 6y agoIm also wondering... There's been a lot of criticism of federal folks and their reaction to covid. But what's about the states? They still have pretty wide powers and should have intervened. Isn't it within the power of individual states to stimulate manufacturing of masks.
- ceejayoz 6y agoStimulate, yes. Mandate, no. The Feds have special powers that are tailor-made for this sort of disaster, that aren't being used effectively. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 Most of the options for states would involve subsidies, which they can't really do as they can't run deficits, and are seeing tanking tax revenue.
- ethanbond 6y agoWhat powers would those be? AFAIK there’s no state level Defense Production Act, for example. If you mean just putting out guaranteed orders, not every state has the capacity to manufacture PPE, even fewer have money to pay for it. One might suggest that multiple states get together and induce manufacturing in the states where they have capacity. We did that. It’s called the federal government, and it’s choosing not to utilize those powers.
- blisterpeanuts 6y agoOffer them tax abatements and regulatory easement? At the very least, it means more local jobs, which should incentivize states & municipalities to compete for such plants.
- brsg 6y agoI guess it really depends on what you mean by "stimulating" manufacturing. They're only recourse, really, is to make purchases of the equipment (does increased demand count as stimulating?). The federal government, and only the federal government, has the power to compel industries to manufacture under the Defense Production Act. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 This was a major point of contention at the beginning of the outbreak in the US. Governor's were lobbying the feds to invoke the act, although the administration declined to do so. The end result was that states were competing with each other for heavily inflated PPE costs. In some cases, the feds themselves were outbidding states. https://news.wbfo.org/post/cuomo-asks-federal-defense-production-act-says-april-28-primary-might-be-mail-only https://news.wbfo.org/post/cuomo-asks-federal-defense-produc... https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-04-07/hospitals-washington-seize-coronavirus-supplies https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-04-07/hospitals-...
- AlexTWithBeard 6y agoBut somehow China manages to stimulate its' manufacturing without involving wartime laws. I don't know how they do it, but may be the US needs a bit of the same too.
- snarf21 6y agoThere is one fundamental difference. States don't control the currency. The federal government can print money to solve this issue. States can't, they can only raise taxes.
- scohesc 6y agoI mean it is an NPR article.
- HumblyTossed 6y agoThey're not wrong.
- blisterpeanuts 6y agoSuch unfair moderation. The author of this article has a whole string of anti-Trump pieces up at the npr.org site. He left out a lot of pertinent information, like the new Pennsylvania plant that's just started up. Furthermore, he's no medical expert. I'm disappointed in NPR for publishing such a puff piece.
- ssully 6y agoCan you refute what they are saying?
- s9w 6y agoThe tone of the article is clearly biased. There was a time when journalism was about facts and not feelings. This is "orange man bad" level
- ssully 6y agoHonestly, your comment does a better job of describing your original and follow up posts more then the article. Your original post pulled the following: "Still, President Trump consistently ignores that reality." This statement in the article is then followed up with facts on the current situation. It's pretty fine journalism.
- s9w 6y agoReally? That is absolutely not fine. The follow up is the trump quote "We've opened up factories". That has no direct connection to people unable finding masks. So the "ignores that reality" is completely unfounded. That formulation in itself is highly unprofessional, no matter what it is about. Contrasting his "ignoring" with "reality" is framing his actions as self-evidently wrong. And the word consistent implies that he is always wrong. That's at least three reasons why this sentence alone is nothing but propaganda.
- objectivetruth 6y ago"We've opened up factories" implies "So we're fine," but even with these new production lines, we'll still be shy a billion or so masks the first year. That's a connection, in my opinion, justifying the "ignores that reality." The dozens of clips circulating from March through last week where he publicly says the virus will just "disappear" are, pretty obviously, a conscious ignorance of the reality. (Since, as we've seen, warm weather nor a few months of time have stopped the pandemic.) The only way you could even charitably say that he's not "consistently ignoring the reality" of the pandemic would be by pointing out the exceptions to those public comments -- his private, recorded comments to Woodward earlier this year where he acknowledged the deadly impact and aerosol nature of the virus. There are tons of articles about Trump's handling of the virus with perspectives you might appreciate more; perhaps you could submit some to HN for discussion. Here are some helpful suggestions: The Daily Caller, Breitbart, and PatriotNewsEagleFreedom1776.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y agoI recommend Moldex. They are under the radar and their plastic mesh isn't readily counterfeited, which is happening now with 3M. They are crushable and pop back into shape. Plus the high end models have nicer sliding straps. Just beware they have no metal bridge and have two different forms to accommodate different nose shapes.
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago>... their plastic mesh isn't readily counterfeited, which is happening now with 3M Speaking of 3M and N95's, can anybody with some unbiased knowledge explain what exactly is the chinese manufactured 'KN95' mask? Are they just conveniently using the name or are the KN95 masks made to standard, to be P2/N95 grade masks?
- ceejayoz 6y agoKN95 is the Chinese version of the standard. Similar requirements, just a different regulatory body. There's a good comparison chart on page 2 of https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2-kn95-n95-filtering-facepiece-respirator-classes-tb.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2....
- _Microft 6y agoDid you know that e.g. Firefox's built-in PDF reader allows to jump directly into PDFs by appending (here) #page=2 to the URL? https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2-kn95-n95-filtering-facepiece-respirator-classes-tb.pdf#page=2 https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- londons_explore 6y agoBecause 'anti price gouging' laws prevent the price going high enough to make it worth someone going to extreme efforts to upscale production. Without those laws, the price going from $1 per mask to $10 per mask would still be very much affordable for everyone who really needs a mask, and factories who can successfully get decent production underway will earn lots, making it worthwhile to take on the risk of chasing a (possibly short lived) demand.
- kevin_b_er 6y ago$10 per mask is outrageous for a mask that only really lasts less than a day before becoming ineffective.
- ch4s3 6y agoWho pays for factories to purchase new equipment and hire more workers to produce more masks then? The companies selected by the government to do so have more or less flopped, as they had more political connections than skill in producing masks.
- gizmo686 6y agoHow do you define outrageous? The shortage is because of how short they last (and the massive spike in demand). If that is the price it takes for supply to meet demand, I can see calling it unnaceptable, but I don't see how it is outrageous, unless you can point to some other decision that led to the cost being nessasary. In practice, I don't think $10/mast is unnaceptable. That is about 15 minutes worth of an ICU nurse's time[0]. In terms of costs that this pandemic is causing, even "expensive" masks are a cheep. [0] https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-ICU-Registered-Nurse-Salary-by-State https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-IC...
- benjohnson 6y agoWe able to get five days of use out of ours if we let them rest and decontaminate for five days between usage. Even after still pass the fit-test and work well - we just throw them away out of an abundance of caution. Even the ones we get from 3M South Korea at about $20 each winds up costing just pennies per hour. Re-use Guidelines: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-strategy/decontamination-reuse-respirators.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-strategy/d...
- horsemessiah 6y agoThis is what is known as "anarchy of production" which is a key feature of capitalism. A global crisis like this is not compatible with our existing economic systems.
- AlexTWithBeard 6y agoOh, no. Pay ten bucks per mask - and soon enough in every basement there will be a masks factory. At least until OSHA comes after them.
- jschwartzi 6y agoBased on my experiences buying other things on Amazon, there will be a "masks" factory. People will be churning out tons and tons of counterfeit N95 masks. They will invest in printing believable CE marks and putting all the touches that would be present on a medical-grade mask. And people will buy them believing that the masks are high-quality and that they are safe wearing them.
- 11235813213455 6y agoWhen I see all the masks littered outside (in France), along the road, I can see one of the reasons for the shortage
- ceejayoz 6y agoLittering is a problem, for sure, but not the same one. These masks are disposable. They should be disposed of properly, but throwing them away isn't the cause of supply problems.
- deelowe 6y agoFYI, there are CDC guidelines for extended use/reuse: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hcwcontrols/recommendedguidanceextuse.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hcwcontrols/recommendedguid...
- ceejayoz 6y agoLimited reuse. If you read it, "extended" here means "several patients in the same day". Hours, not days/weeks.
- deelowe 6y agoI have read it. Have you? I'm trying to be helpful. Here are a few key quotes: Thus, the maximum length of continuous use in non-dusty healthcare workplaces is typically dictated by hygienic concerns (e.g., the respirator was discarded because it became contaminated) or practical considerations (e.g., need to use the restroom, meal breaks, etc.), rather than a pre-determined number of hours. Extended use alone is unlikely to degrade respiratory protection. If no manufacturer guidance is available, preliminary data(19, 20) suggests limiting the number of reuses to no more than five uses per device to ensure an adequate safety margin. The most significant risk is of contact transmission from touching the surface of the contaminated respirator. Basically, the major risk factors for extended use and reuse is contamination of the respirator resulting in infection from handling it and damage rendering the respirator inferior (e.g. due to improper seal). Also, these guidelines are for clinical settings where these specific risk factors significantly elevated. For a normal person who uses the mask maybe once per week (assuming they are rotating), a single n95 mask could last quite a long time.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tinus_hn 6y agoProbably related to the tricks pulled cancelling the order for 30000 ventilators for $650000000 from Philips. ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-31/philips-cuts-outlook-after-u-s-slashes-ventilator-contract https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-31/philips-c... ) If you’re not a reliable partner how can you expect people to invest? If someone builds a factory in the US, as soon as masks are available from China again the administration will just drop them like a rock and start ordering from China for rock bottom prices again.
- lotsofpulp 6y agoThe leadership in this administration has a many decades long history of screwing over and stealing from their “partners”.
- ciarannolan 6y agoAnd going back on previous agreements. No wonder no one trusts or wants to work with them.
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y agoI mean, this was the story from the guy in America who was selling the masks. He said he wasn't expanding or making his people pull overtime only for hospitals to go to China. How much was the cost difference? 10 cents versus 4 cents per mask.
- notyourday 6y agoI'm genuinely curious when was the last time someone voluntarily and constantly paid 250% of a cost of an equivalent product available from somewhere else?
- klodolph 6y agoUS government does strategic planning when they make large purchases. There are also a bunch of weird laws at play, so at times you might on one hand say that "the law requires" and on the other hand consider it voluntarily paying more, because it's the US government passing laws to restrict how its own purchases are made. You also might pay $5 for a hot dog at a stadium when you can buy them for $1 outside, so there's that.
- blisterpeanuts 6y agoCapacity is ramping up. It's surprising that the reporter (Joel Rose) didn't mention a new large Dräger plant in Pennsylvania that has begun manufacturing completely made-in-USA N-95 NIOSH-compliant masks. 3M and Honeywell are responding to HHS and DoD contracts by double or tripling their monthly output (admittedly, most of their factories are outside the U.S., in China and other places). According to Statistica, monthly production of these masks will rise from 45 million units in January 2020 to 180 million units by end of year. Maybe this is insufficient but it's certainly better than nothing. One issue is the difficulty and expense of producing meltblown textile, the material that traps microscopic particles so effectively. Currently this material is in shortage, and manufacturers are reluctant to build expensive machinery to make it when the demand may not exist a year from now. One could make a case that the government should guarantee such companies from loss, to encourage short term investment. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1135072/us-n95-mask-production/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1135072/us-n95-mask-prod... 2. https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-09-10/scarcity-of-key-material-squeezes-medical-mask-manufacturing https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-09-10/sca... 3. https://news.yahoo.com/dr-ger-increases-n95-respiratory-155500945.html https://news.yahoo.com/dr-ger-increases-n95-respiratory-1555...
- snarf21 6y agoThe government should have stepped in. We probably don't even need more N95. We could have a different kind of mask that is highly effective and made for comfort with kids and adult sizes. The government could have ordered and distributed these at cost. Then a national mask mandate is trivial. We could have greatly cut the spread and job losses. Instead they did basically nothing and said it would go away in a week or two.
- nicolashahn 6y agoI'm not seeing anyone here talk about the actual reason that a factory owner gave: no one knows if it's going to pay off, because if this whole thing blows over (because of a vaccine, or some other treatment, or we reach herd immunity sooner than expected, etc) then they've spent a huge investment on building supply, and there's no demand for it.
- diebeforei485 6y agoFace shields are largely useless, except perhaps for healthcare workers. They are relatively easy to manufacture, but what we really needed was mass-production of N95/KN95 masks for essential workers.
- 12xo 6y agoWait, I was under the impression that the spun material used to make the masks was the challenge, not the actual manufacturing of the masks. Which is actually rather simple.
- binarymax 6y agoI was able to buy 20 KN95 masks for $50 through an online retailer advertising through my local business journal. KN95 masks are the Chinese regulatory standard vs N95 which is the NIOSH standard, but KN95 sales in the US still need FDA approval. Here is a list of approved masks from the FDA: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19-emergency-use-authorizations-medical-devices/personal-protective-equipment-euas https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-disease-2019...
- jdm2212 6y agoMy local Korean grocery store and Ace Hardware both have KN95 masks in stock for $2 to $5 a piece. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've heard of them just being available in stores elsewhere too.
- techdevangelist 6y agoWe have the flat folded KN95 masks in Kroger costing 3 for $15
- vonmoltke 6y ago> KN95 sales in the US still need FDA approval Only for use in healthcare settings. The FDA doesn't have regulatory authority over masks and respirators for non-medical uses.
- ardy42 6y ago> I was able to buy 20 KN95 masks for $50 through an online retailer advertising through my local business journal. > KN95 masks are the Chinese regulatory standard vs N95 which is the NIOSH standard, but KN95 sales in the US still need FDA approval. We bought two brands of KN95s from Taobao, and I've found they don't fit my caucasian face very well. The bend strip around the nose is too short to get a good seal. This was earlier in the pandemic, and I believe they were off-brand ones, so they might be lower quality than others. We definitely didn't pay that much. I only consider them a marginal improvement over a surgical mask.
- curiousllama 6y agoFirst of all: "the market is glutted with face masks [and hand sanitizer]." This is a massive success of the free market, mitigated only by the unfortunate fact that, as it turns out, those are not the most useful bits of PPE. Second, contrary to the pro-price-gouging argument, the real issue is risk aversion: nobody will sign the long term contracts required for manufacturers to justify the investment (and, by the way, are functionally the same as a higher price). Why? Because providers in places where shortages actually manifest - largely poor & rural areas - are nearly bankrupt anyway. They can't guarantee payment for sh*t in the long term. Ultimately, this issue is exactly the type of thing we need collective action for: pool our resources & buy together to defray long-term costs. Bluntly, the government should be guaranteeing these contracts. But they don't AFAIK - and that's the failing.
- Terretta 6y ago> glutted with face masks ... not the most useful bits of PPE What are the most useful bits of PPE against an airborne (breathed, not sneezed/touched) virus?
- curiousllama 6y agoMasks Others are still useful (gowns, faceshields, sanitizer, etc.), but masks are the most useful, from what I can tell.
- ebg13 6y agoBut you just said that they weren't.
- curiousllama 6y agoShields I meant shields. Blech
- RIMR 6y agoBecause America has become destructively capitalist and if there isn't enough profit in making N95 masks, people aren't going to make them, even if it saves lives. It's the same reason talking heads were discussing how many dead grandmas and grandpas the stock market was worth in the face of COVID-19. It's because our society cares about money more than it cares about human life. We can blame our country's leadership all we want, but America has a culture of cruel, uncaring selfishness, and we never needed the financial incentives or the Defense Production Act to make us do the right thing: we chose not to.
- dang 6y agoPlease stop posting ideological flamewar comments. It's not what HN is for, we ban accounts that do it (because it destroys what it is for), and we've had to ask you about this more than once already. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.
- ciarannolan 6y agoNo mention of the Defense Production Act [1], which was talked about more during the early days of this. With the right declaration, the feds can make any American company manufacture anything. Why haven't they used it for N95's? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act
- jschwartzi 6y agoThe feds seemed more interested in using the DPA as a show piece to punish CEOs like Mary Barra for acknowledging there might be a need to build ventilators. There continues to be a complete lack of acknowledgement that more masks need to be created, and so people continue to get sick and die while treating patients.
- bleepblorp 6y agoThe DPA has not been used because the White House made an early decision that it was not politically necessary to raise a maximum-effort response to SARS-CoV-2. Because COVID-19 cases were primarily concentrated in Democratic states, it was seen as politically useful to do little and blame Democrats for the consequences. > Most troubling of all, perhaps, was a sentiment the expert said a member of > Kushner’s team expressed: that because the virus had hit blue states hardest, > a national plan was unnecessary and would not make sense politically. “The > political folks believed that because it was going to be relegated to > Democratic states, that they could blame those governors, and that would be > an effective political strategy,” said the expert.[0] [0] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/07/how-jared-kushners-secret-testing-plan-went-poof-into-thin-air https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/07/how-jared-kushners-s...
- danenania 6y agoBecause the Trump administration is historically corrupt and incompetent? Politics aside, it's become clear that they have absolutely no idea how to run the government. Any previous administration from any party would have done orders of magnitude better. Hell, many despotic third world regimes are doing better. They will be remembered as some of the worst fuck ups in human history.
- anthony_r 6y agoIs anyone tracking the current spot price of N95 masks on a chart? Would need a true price, i.e. what do you have to pay if you have no "special powers" like a hospital. Spot as close as is reasonable, maybe with 1 week delivery; I am assuming that the forward curve is still in backwardation. That would be the best tracker of shortage. The curve itself would be interesting, if it ever flips to contango without spot going meaningfully down that'd mean serious problems (nobody expects capacity increase).
- seanca 6y agoFrom a product perspective this feels a lot like blaming the market instead of taking responsibility that you didn't build the right product. "When Gujral and other domestic manufacturers saw an opportunity to help protect frontline workers ... many of them shifted gears to make face shields and hand sanitizer, which are relatively simple to produce." Right, you built what was easy (face shields) instead of what the market wanted most (N95 masks). Now your product isn't differentiated and the market is flooded with a product that doesn't best meet the market's needs. We knew six months ago that N95 masks were the critical product for frontline workers, not listening to that market feedback isn't the federal government's fault but rather your own.
- danenania 6y agoGiven there has been an essentially infinite demand for any PPE, even insufficient PPE, it's very possible that producing face shields and hand sanitizer was a better business decision from a purely financial perspective. That's why the government needs to take leadership in these scenarios--market incentives often aren't enough to produce what's needed in response to large-scale disasters.
- justin66 6y agoIsopropyl alcohol is still difficult to obtain in stores, which is interesting. It is insanely easy to make, unlike N95 masks, which are pretty specialized.
- indymike 6y agoThis was a problem in the past. Even the local gas stations and grocery stores are selling N95 masks (and KN95 masks and about thirty styles of fashion masks) here in the Midwest.
- ComputerGuru 6y agoISBE and IDPH asked us to open this school year with full in-person learning for at least up to third grade, but left us to deal with the resource shortage on our own. We scrounged for thermal scanners and face masks but the lead time on refills for our wall/stand-mounted hand sanitizer dispensers is still 26 weeks. Back in February before the US wisened up to the threat, I placed a large order that would have later qualified as “hoarding”† because I figured it was a calculated precaution worth the investment and because we are ultimately responsible for the health and safety of our students, teachers, and their families; this was sufficient for us to continue until we closed in March (of our own volition prior to the governor’s order shutting down all schools) and we had enough left over for us to reopen, but we’re basically out now. Anyone with ideas about how to procure more hand sanitizer in bulk for schools, please reach out! † No moral qualms here because there was no insane shortage in February, because it was not for myself or for personal/corporate profit, and because it wasn’t more than we could need in a worst case scenario which absolutely materialized (reopening school in a pandemic); imho it’s not unlike a governor who placed a large order for their state - for which they would be praised as prescient and not shot down as hoarding.
- blackrock 6y agoWell, what’s the point of an N95 mask, when every other idiot at the supermarket wears the mask on their chin, while walking around the store talking on their cell phones? Or they just pretend to wear it, by only covering their mouth, and leaving their noses exposed. Regardless, this issue does not fix stupidity.