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In EU by the law, limit inside towns and cities is 50km/h - so it is a spot on speed. By the way in cities average speed is very low. For instance in London th

In EU by the law, limit inside towns and cities is 50km/h - so it is a spot on speed. By the way in cities average speed is very low. For instance in London the average speed within a mile of the city center dropped 1.22mph from an average of 6.35mph in 2016 to just 5.13mph in 2017. https://fleetworld.co.uk/average-driving-speeds-plummet-in-uks-major-cities/#:~:text=The%20study%20by%20In%2Dcar,%E2%80%93%20a%20fall%20of%2019%25 https://fleetworld.co.uk/average-driving-speeds-plummet-in-u....

cesis 6y ago
The limit is 50km/h but everyone is driving at ~60km/h.
- _ZeD_ 6y ago
  well... it depends... try to do it in my old town with small streets and devious curves...
frostburg 6y ago
The issue stems from the fact that in Italy if you actually drive at merely 50 km/h in average roads you're perceived as an antisocial menace.
- amatecha 6y ago
  Seems same in Bosnia, I traveled there and ppl said I should follow the speed limit at all times due to likelihood of police punishing with big fines. Uhh.. that didn't last long. I was getting tailgated and passed angrily by basically every single person on the road, and even when I did get pulled over by the police (wasn't speeding or violating any driving rule there -- I read up on them), they just sent me on my way once I acted totally oblivious and also they could barely understand my English... heh! Too much hassle to try to get a bribe out of me I guess?
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    A car I was in was stopped three times in 10 minutes the moment it crossed into the "other" part of Sarajevo. Just before, the driver suggested I watch his speed, which was 5km/h below the limit the whole time. The police were simply taking money from the other ethnic group.
    - Symbiote 6y ago
      Someone downvoted this, so I'll provide this quote from the UK FCO: > Taxi drivers from the Republika Srpska might be unwilling to drive to a destination in the Federation, and vice versa. https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/bosnia-and-herzegovina/safety-and-security https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/bosnia-and-herzegov... Or Wikipedia > police conduct around the Inter-Entity Boundary Line separating the two entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republika Srpska, had been the "greatest obstacle to freedom of movement", including intimidation and arbitrary fines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of... There are plenty of anecdotes similar to mine on TripAdvisor etc.
- huhtenberg 6y ago
  It's simply not true for the cities, people largely drive around 50 km/h if that's the limit. On the highways however going 30+ over the limit is a norm.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  > The issue stems from the fact that in Italy if you actually drive at merely 50 km/h in average roads you're perceived as an antisocial menace. Where did you get that? The reality is that if you are scared to drive or unfocused in a city like Rome or Milan, you are a menace even at very low speed. At 10 km/h a car kills a pedestrian. At 15 km/h without safety bells if you hit a wall you're thrown out from the windshield.
  - frostburg 6y ago
    I used to live in Florence, I'm familiar. Yes, cars are dangerous even at low speeds, but I find it annoying that if I drive at 50 km/h in a low-vis, twisty and narrow hill road the car before me will almost invariably ignore the safety distance to signal displeasure towards my slowness.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      > but I find it annoying that if I drive at 50 km/h in a low-vis, twisty and narrow hill road the car before me will almost invariably ignore the safety distance to signal displeasure towards my slowness. I guess you meant the car behind you. It is called tailgating. It is very annoying, I agree, but if I can offer en explanation, in those conditions to overtake you wanna cover the less possible distance, being closer to the car in front of you is a way to make it possible. Having said that: compared to the population the most dangerous cities in Italy are, in order, Genoa, Florence and Milan. That could explain it too. To deal with a taligater, according to the experts, you should > Brake slowly before stopping. Avoid tailgaters when possible by changing lanes. If you cannot change lanes, slow down enough to encourage the tailgater to go around you. If this does not work, pull off the road when safe and let the tailgater pass.
      - frostburg 6y ago
        Yes, tailgating, exactly. I'm mostly talking about narrow roads where you need to slow down and maybe go a bit outside of the paved area to let another car pass in the opposite direction; these are common in the hills of Tuscany and overtaking is impossible. My approach if I'm not in a hurry and there is just one car behind me is to slow down to 10 km/h until the tailgater gets the message.
mkl 6y ago
50km/h would be spot on for speed. 45km/h will just hold up the traffic behind you and lead to dangerous behaviour from frustrated drivers. I don't think this would be very safe to drive in NZ, but if it went 50km/h it would be fine (our traffic really does go 50km/h, and those averages must include waiting at lights, etc.).
- wffurr 6y ago
  Frustrated drivers need to learn to calm down instead of engaging in dangerous behavior. That's really the root of the safety problem that is big powerful cars.
  - mkl 6y ago
    True, but antagonising them isn't going to make that happen, and making this go just 5km/h faster is an easy way to avoid the problem entirely. Maybe "dangerous" isn't quite the right word, but certainly more aggressive, and it's not fun being on the receiving end, even if you're physically safe.
    - wffurr 6y ago
      Someone who can't handle going 5 km/h under the speed limit (aka maximum) shouldn't be trusted to operate a motor vehicle. Sadly, that describes all too many drivers. Enforcement and normalization of slower speeds through a critical mass of slower vehicles could change things. Ultimately, people have shown that the need to be "tamed" while driving cars.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        > Someone who can't handle going 5 km/h under the speed limit shouldn't be trusted to operate a motor vehicle Neither should someone who can't handle going at 5km/h faster than the speed limit. It will happen one day that they'll need to and maybe that day it will rain and that will be the day they cause an accident, possibly involving others. Limits are not there because that's the maximum speed you should be _able_ to drive, they are there for pedestrian safety and to reduce the noise. > . Enforcement and normalization of slower speeds through a critical mass of slower vehicles could change things. On the contrary, I hope there will be way faster vehicles, underground, only for those trained to drive them or machine operated. Everyone else should just ride a bike or walk or catch a bus or a (slow) cab. The need for speed won't go back, we need to move faster and faster, the more our lives go faster. p.s. before someone says it, I live in a very expensive neighborhood just to be at walking distance from my office. Even though I love driving and are a semi professional trained pilot, I usually don't drive in the city, unless I have to. But I can understand why people forced to use a car want to drive them as fast as the limit permits.
ekianjo 6y ago
> By the way in cities average speed is very low. Most people don't respect the strict speed limits in Europe. As long as there's no radar and no heavy traffic around I can guarantee cars will go faster than 50km/h.
- lonelyasacloud 6y ago
  The thing is why should we need radar, cameras or ever people to behave like saints to obey speed limits? Every major vehicle manufacturers is working on self-driving. So just how difficult would it be for them to make cars now as an intermediate step that actually obeyed the speed laws? In the UK, The National Police Chiefs Council stated that speeding is believed to be a significant factor in 17 fatalities and 126 serious injuries on the country's roads each month. Globally ... I don't know how many people the vehicle makers should be allowed to kill and maim because of a speeding problem that is entirely technically preventable. But at the moment it feels like they are getting away with something that is uncomfortably close to murder.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    Firstly, it'll be ineffective. Going 60 in a 50 zone, which many people do, isn't going to result in many more fatalities, most speeding fatalities probably come from drivers who were going stupidly fast. That kind of driver is just going to go for used cars if new cars won't let you drive as you wish. Secondly, there's a more fundamental issue. Most people are not going to be ok with the lawmaker exerting that level of control over their cars, because it's 1984-y. Just because something kills people doesn't mean it always has to be completely stopped and eradicated. People die from eating too much junk food, should we forbid it? People die to stairs, are you going to legally force constructions to pad any staircases with cushions? People ruin their lives due to alcohol. People drown in pools. Kids get injured on playgrounds - think of the children. There's a line where you need to leave things up to individuals, even if some of them are going to fuck up, because otherwise you end up creating a draconian state, which is way worse than any possible outcome created by people misusing their agency. Trying to enforce speed limits this hard is way over that line.
kube-system 6y ago
I agree with what you’re saying, but average (assuming it’s a mean) speed is not really a useful figure to determine if someone would be holding up traffic, because traffic doesn’t go a constant speed, especially in a city. Something like an 80 percentile speed might be better.

cesis 6y ago

The limit is 50km/h but everyone is driving at ~60km/h.

_ZeD_ 6y ago
well... it depends... try to do it in my old town with small streets and devious curves...

frostburg 6y ago

The issue stems from the fact that in Italy if you actually drive at merely 50 km/h in average roads you're perceived as an antisocial menace.

amatecha 6y ago
Seems same in Bosnia, I traveled there and ppl said I should follow the speed limit at all times due to likelihood of police punishing with big fines. Uhh.. that didn't last long. I was getting tailgated and passed angrily by basically every single person on the road, and even when I did get pulled over by the police (wasn't speeding or violating any driving rule there -- I read up on them), they just sent me on my way once I acted totally oblivious and also they could barely understand my English... heh! Too much hassle to try to get a bribe out of me I guess?
- Symbiote 6y ago
  A car I was in was stopped three times in 10 minutes the moment it crossed into the "other" part of Sarajevo. Just before, the driver suggested I watch his speed, which was 5km/h below the limit the whole time. The police were simply taking money from the other ethnic group.
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    Someone downvoted this, so I'll provide this quote from the UK FCO: > Taxi drivers from the Republika Srpska might be unwilling to drive to a destination in the Federation, and vice versa. https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/bosnia-and-herzegovina/safety-and-security https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/bosnia-and-herzegov... Or Wikipedia > police conduct around the Inter-Entity Boundary Line separating the two entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republika Srpska, had been the "greatest obstacle to freedom of movement", including intimidation and arbitrary fines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of... There are plenty of anecdotes similar to mine on TripAdvisor etc.
huhtenberg 6y ago
It's simply not true for the cities, people largely drive around 50 km/h if that's the limit. On the highways however going 30+ over the limit is a norm.
romanoderoma 6y ago
> The issue stems from the fact that in Italy if you actually drive at merely 50 km/h in average roads you're perceived as an antisocial menace. Where did you get that? The reality is that if you are scared to drive or unfocused in a city like Rome or Milan, you are a menace even at very low speed. At 10 km/h a car kills a pedestrian. At 15 km/h without safety bells if you hit a wall you're thrown out from the windshield.
- frostburg 6y ago
  I used to live in Florence, I'm familiar. Yes, cars are dangerous even at low speeds, but I find it annoying that if I drive at 50 km/h in a low-vis, twisty and narrow hill road the car before me will almost invariably ignore the safety distance to signal displeasure towards my slowness.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    > but I find it annoying that if I drive at 50 km/h in a low-vis, twisty and narrow hill road the car before me will almost invariably ignore the safety distance to signal displeasure towards my slowness. I guess you meant the car behind you. It is called tailgating. It is very annoying, I agree, but if I can offer en explanation, in those conditions to overtake you wanna cover the less possible distance, being closer to the car in front of you is a way to make it possible. Having said that: compared to the population the most dangerous cities in Italy are, in order, Genoa, Florence and Milan. That could explain it too. To deal with a taligater, according to the experts, you should > Brake slowly before stopping. Avoid tailgaters when possible by changing lanes. If you cannot change lanes, slow down enough to encourage the tailgater to go around you. If this does not work, pull off the road when safe and let the tailgater pass.
    - frostburg 6y ago
      Yes, tailgating, exactly. I'm mostly talking about narrow roads where you need to slow down and maybe go a bit outside of the paved area to let another car pass in the opposite direction; these are common in the hills of Tuscany and overtaking is impossible. My approach if I'm not in a hurry and there is just one car behind me is to slow down to 10 km/h until the tailgater gets the message.

mkl 6y ago

50km/h would be spot on for speed. 45km/h will just hold up the traffic behind you and lead to dangerous behaviour from frustrated drivers. I don't think this would be very safe to drive in NZ, but if it went 50km/h it would be fine (our traffic really does go 50km/h, and those averages must include waiting at lights, etc.).

wffurr 6y ago
Frustrated drivers need to learn to calm down instead of engaging in dangerous behavior. That's really the root of the safety problem that is big powerful cars.
- mkl 6y ago
  True, but antagonising them isn't going to make that happen, and making this go just 5km/h faster is an easy way to avoid the problem entirely. Maybe "dangerous" isn't quite the right word, but certainly more aggressive, and it's not fun being on the receiving end, even if you're physically safe.
  - wffurr 6y ago
    Someone who can't handle going 5 km/h under the speed limit (aka maximum) shouldn't be trusted to operate a motor vehicle. Sadly, that describes all too many drivers. Enforcement and normalization of slower speeds through a critical mass of slower vehicles could change things. Ultimately, people have shown that the need to be "tamed" while driving cars.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      > Someone who can't handle going 5 km/h under the speed limit shouldn't be trusted to operate a motor vehicle Neither should someone who can't handle going at 5km/h faster than the speed limit. It will happen one day that they'll need to and maybe that day it will rain and that will be the day they cause an accident, possibly involving others. Limits are not there because that's the maximum speed you should be _able_ to drive, they are there for pedestrian safety and to reduce the noise. > . Enforcement and normalization of slower speeds through a critical mass of slower vehicles could change things. On the contrary, I hope there will be way faster vehicles, underground, only for those trained to drive them or machine operated. Everyone else should just ride a bike or walk or catch a bus or a (slow) cab. The need for speed won't go back, we need to move faster and faster, the more our lives go faster. p.s. before someone says it, I live in a very expensive neighborhood just to be at walking distance from my office. Even though I love driving and are a semi professional trained pilot, I usually don't drive in the city, unless I have to. But I can understand why people forced to use a car want to drive them as fast as the limit permits.

ekianjo 6y ago

> By the way in cities average speed is very low. Most people don't respect the strict speed limits in Europe. As long as there's no radar and no heavy traffic around I can guarantee cars will go faster than 50km/h.

lonelyasacloud 6y ago
The thing is why should we need radar, cameras or ever people to behave like saints to obey speed limits? Every major vehicle manufacturers is working on self-driving. So just how difficult would it be for them to make cars now as an intermediate step that actually obeyed the speed laws? In the UK, The National Police Chiefs Council stated that speeding is believed to be a significant factor in 17 fatalities and 126 serious injuries on the country's roads each month. Globally ... I don't know how many people the vehicle makers should be allowed to kill and maim because of a speeding problem that is entirely technically preventable. But at the moment it feels like they are getting away with something that is uncomfortably close to murder.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  Firstly, it'll be ineffective. Going 60 in a 50 zone, which many people do, isn't going to result in many more fatalities, most speeding fatalities probably come from drivers who were going stupidly fast. That kind of driver is just going to go for used cars if new cars won't let you drive as you wish. Secondly, there's a more fundamental issue. Most people are not going to be ok with the lawmaker exerting that level of control over their cars, because it's 1984-y. Just because something kills people doesn't mean it always has to be completely stopped and eradicated. People die from eating too much junk food, should we forbid it? People die to stairs, are you going to legally force constructions to pad any staircases with cushions? People ruin their lives due to alcohol. People drown in pools. Kids get injured on playgrounds - think of the children. There's a line where you need to leave things up to individuals, even if some of them are going to fuck up, because otherwise you end up creating a draconian state, which is way worse than any possible outcome created by people misusing their agency. Trying to enforce speed limits this hard is way over that line.

kube-system 6y ago

I agree with what you’re saying, but average (assuming it’s a mean) speed is not really a useful figure to determine if someone would be holding up traffic, because traffic doesn’t go a constant speed, especially in a city. Something like an 80 percentile speed might be better.