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For context, in many European countries (including Italy where I grew up) 14 year olds can drive mopeds or moto scooters up to 50cc and limited to a max speed o
by mastazi 6y ago
For context, in many European countries (including Italy where I grew up) 14 year olds can drive mopeds or moto scooters up to 50cc and limited to a max speed of 45km/h, however most of the times[1] those have post-market modifications installed, either at home or by unscrupulous mechanics, in order to go much faster.
A large portion of the public opinion in those countries see those mini-cars as a safer 4-wheel alternative.
I'm not saying that those mini-cars are safe or that they are great for the environment, just putting things into perspective for people who are not familiar with the situation in Europe.
[1] I don't have official statistics but anecdotally I can say that as a teenager, almost everyone I knew had modified their moped or scooter.
- occamrazor 6y agoModifications were extremely common with 2-strokes engines. Now (since about 10 years ago) mopeds must have 4-strokes engines and even with modifications they aren’t very fast or sprinting. Maybe for this reason I have seen many more electric mopeds in the last few years.
- andretti1977 6y agoI live in Bergamo and can confirm that at least in the 90’s it was common habit to have a modified scooter :)
- joking 6y agoIt was so easy, you only had to modify the variator (the automatic transmisión of the scooter) because the limitation was just a low gear that didn’t let you go faster (think of driving always on first gear). You removed a stop on the variator that let you use the full range and the limit was gone. Anyway, 2 stroke motors were also easily tunable, and people used to change the escape, carburetor, even sometimes the cilinder was changed to have more power on those little machines.
- eitland 6y agoNorwegian here: When I grew up (I was born in 1980) there was a thriving market for performance parts for "moped"s small motorcycles (max 2,5hp, 50ccm). You could get replacement cylinders and everything. According to what I heard if you upgraded everything you could get about 16hp out what used to be one of these underpowered machines.
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- turbinerneiter 6y agoThe 45km/h are pretty stupid. Of it was 60, there would be less pressure to mod. With 45km/h you are seen as an obstacle by cars and they overtake you in dangerous ways.
- adrianN 6y agoI have a theory that this is due to pressure from the car industry. All non-car alternatives are nerfed: The 45km/h for these things, the 25km/h limit for electric bicycles, the 20km/h limit for e-scooters. All are 5-10km/h too slow to drive on the road without impeding traffic, making them significantly less attractive.
- gambiting 6y agoOr you know....it's a smart move by the legislators. Want to drive at car-like speeds? Get a car licence with everything that it involves then. With bicycles it makes even more sense - since the reality is that despite what the law says, many people ride them on pavements - so the speed should be limited to what is safe for pedestrians.
- jablan 6y agoThat's ridiculous. The legislators don't have any reason (except being bribed by car industry) to encourage people to use cars instead of more human-friendly modes of transport. Also, if people are riding bikes on the pavement, it's a clear signal that they don't have a safe alternative.
- gambiting 6y ago>>The legislators don't have any reason (except being bribed by car industry) to encourage people to use cars instead of more human-friendly modes of transport. Wait, I'm confused now, are you arguing for or against this thing then? You do realize that the Ami is made by Citroen, which is a car company, right? So....which way is this alleged bribe supposed to flow, exactly? And really, like you can't see any reason at all? Just off the top of my head - legislators say, for the sake of safety, that if a vehicle of any type can reach 50km/h or higher, it's a car. That's a car speed, therefore it should require a car licence. Because of that, manufacturers artificially limit the speed to 45km/h, so you don't need a licence to drive one of these. I'm not sure how would the car manufacturers bribe here - for? Or against this law? Because honestly, I can make an argument for either. >>Also, if people are riding bikes on the pavement, it's a clear signal that they don't have a safe alternative. You're stating the obvious here. Equally obvious is that the councils "should just build more bike paths". But in reality there is no money to do this. Local councils have barely enough money to clean the streets and patch the worst potholes, and building new bike lanes is a far higher expenditure than this. The problem might be solved with time, or it might not. The law should reflect reality(and it does), not some made up utopia that doesn't exist.
- _Wintermute 6y agoAt least they'll be quieter than the mopeds, I couldn't open my window in Paris due to the noise of hundreds of those things.
- amatecha 6y agoRight? I cannot stand the sound of these loud buzzing things speeding past nonstop. Very grating and honestly stressful to listen to constantly :(
- lostlogin 6y agoYour comment reminded me of the piss-take someone made of moped noise. Once the exhaust system has been modified it’s awful. https://youtu.be/0UotZ_ZLB5A https://youtu.be/0UotZ_ZLB5A
- caro_douglos 6y agoYour comment reminded me that whistle tips go woo [1] [1] https://youtu.be/zUXow3d3-b0 https://youtu.be/zUXow3d3-b0
- kube-system 6y agoThat’s just for decoration.
- nogabebop23 6y agoanyone bothered by these early in the morning should already be up making breakfast
- nkrisc 6y agoNot everyone works 9-5. Some people work odd hours so you can, for example, go to the hospital at 0200.
- codetrotter 6y ago
- the-dude 6y ago16 years of age in NL.
- tda 6y agoAnd you need license (which you can get by taking an written exam, no actual driving skills required)
- galfarragem 6y ago16 in Portugal also. However the majority of users are old people without driving license. These mini-cars are funnily called "papa reformas" that translates as "retirement eater".
- the-dude 6y agoIn the same vein, motorcyclists are sometimes referred to as tree huggers in NL.
- orthoxerox 6y agoCrunches here in RU. And squids are those who don't wear protection.
- 082349872349872 6y agoreminds me of corpus sanum sine mente sana: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgdP5U28jHc&t=125 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgdP5U28jHc&t=125
- pteraspidomorph 6y agoI don't think you're right about Portugal. It's 14 for 50cc, 16 for 125cc.
- fsckboy 6y agoI'm in favor of spot checks and zero tolerance for speed limit evading modifications, and not because of 14yo's in France. It's because electric bikes, the silent killers, are flying all over NYC and we get immigrants from cultures that DGAF about human life, much like and augmenting our own populations of sociopaths and teenagers. I just find the callousness annoying, and if there is to be callousness, I would rather redirect it in the other direction.
- TheNorthman 6y ago> immigrants from cultures that DGAF about human life Just out of pure curiosity, what `cultures' are these?
- fsckboy 6y agoit's a set that defines itself, the title is descriptive.
- 082349872349872 6y agoThe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape might say an initial wave of dutch culture, rapidly supplanted, after the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Dutch_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Dutch_Wars, by english culture. (I am guessing adjectival phrases such as dutch uncle, dutch oven, dutch treat, etc. gained currency during that period.)
- heavenlyblue 6y agoAre you literally quoting a 18th century event as a reason for bad driving practices in 2020?
- monsieurbanana 6y agoI thought it was a fairly obvious joke, pointing out that there's no such thing as an immigration wave killing people in NYC through electric bikes.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y agoIn Italy, particularly in Bologna, I've seen a bunch of small three-wheeled cars, I think single-seaters, that look like miniature race cars, but seem to be electic urban mobility vehicles, easy to park etc. What are those, if you know what I'm talking about? Edit: Ah, never mind. I just had a look around myself. I think what I've seen are Renault Twizzys, judging from the pictures I found online. There seem to be quite a few of them in Bologna, for some reason.
- jaclaz 6y agoThe Twizy is 4 wheels, though. JFYI: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20506703 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20506703
- rbanffy 6y agoWhen I moved to Ireland I thought about one. Still kind of expensive for what it is when you add doors.
- elviejo 6y agoexactly I love the twizzy but how expensive it is with doors, and it didn't even have glass windows it was too much. Basically the twizzy was 18k usd for an electric two setter. wheread I bought a Dodge Attitude 3 pistons, extremely fuel efficient 4 setter. for 9k usd. I couldn't justify to my wife to buy half the car in twice the money... I tried
- rbanffy 6y agoThe two things going for it are the futuristic look and the fact it's an EV.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y agoTrue. I might be misremembering the number of wheels. Unfortunately Covid-19 kept me from going to Bologna this year, bloody thing, so it's been a year since I last saw the vehicle I'm talking about.
- yason 6y agoInstead of minicars or scooters, the absolutely safest option would be to use regular small cars that are re-registered with a speed limiter. Used small cars are cheap and they come with all the safety features that have been around and mandated for decades. They are infinitely more safe than these plastic boxes. Just tack a safety triangle in the back of the car to warn others of the slow speed. When the young person turns 18 they could just have the speed limiter removed and continue driving the same car. Sweden has a local exception that allows turning old cars into tractors that 16-year-olds can drive. There are other limitations and those are really slow, and building tractors out of old Volvos doesn't sound too unsafe.
- tom_mellior 6y agoAs your parent pointed out, many places have a deeply entrenched culture of owners and mechanics illegally tuning vehicles. A speed limiter would not last long.
- JoeAltmaier 6y agoThen add a monitor? Inspect them (deliver them to registry office regularly) to see that they've been running at safe speeds only.
- tom_mellior 6y agoIn my country at least, the regular vehicle inspections mandated by law are not performed by some theoretical incorruptible government office, but rather by the same mechanics who are willing to perform the illegal modifications. You can imagine how well that works in practice. (Which is not to say that I don't agree with you in theory, but people don't work that way.)
- JoeAltmaier 6y agoMake it digital then. Upload the device to a website using your cell phone. Nobody between you and the verification that way. And if you don't upload, the car won't start and you get a call from a friendly community officer to find out what went wrong.
- dariosalvi78 6y agoAll mopeds and all the mopeds of my friends were changed to 75cc. Some also changed the escape, and it used to be extremely noisy, but made the little engine faster. A friend of mine had a horrible unstable moped (Califfone), but it was tweaked to the level that it became dangerous to drive. That was in Naples in the 90s.
- slau 6y agoHow exactly does one increase the engine displacement on a moped? I’ve heard this claim many times, but more often than not it was just a random mechanic who charged a few hundred euros to put a different speedometer with inflated readings. I modded some of my own motorbikes to improve air intake, changing the exhaust, and other minor things but I consider those to be in the realm of “cosmetics” (audible cosmetics?) rather than real major performance changing. I just don’t see how you could bore out an extra 50% of displacement on engines made so cheaply.
- klausjensen 6y agoI am not an expert, but in Denmark I believe they literally "drilled" the combustion chamber bigger and replaced the pistons (among other modifications). Back in the early 90s when this was something my friends were into, several of them had Yamaha 4 gears capable to going over 100kph (60mph) while the legal limit was 30kph (~19mph).
- laurieg 6y agoSo called "big bore" kits are common for 50cc scooters. You replace part of the engine block and sometimes the cylinder head. 50cc is pretty small when you thing about it so you don't need a massive change to get a performance boost.
- tim333 6y agoHere's one online with a photo https://www.amazon.com/Glixal-ATMT1-011-Scooter-Cylinder-Rebuild/dp/B01303YV08/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=100cc+big+bore+kit+for+50cc+scooter&qid=1599912388&sr=8-5 https://www.amazon.com/Glixal-ATMT1-011-Scooter-Cylinder-Reb...
- Dahoon 6y agoIsn't it location specific you are thinking about? EU norm is 30km/h for mopeds and bikelane only, and car drivers-license for 45km/h on the road. 45km/h on a moped would cause a fine if the police sees you. Unless it is in a country not following the EU norm of course.
- odiroot 6y ago> For context, in many European countries (including Italy where I grew up) 14 year olds Isn't this 16 in most countries? > have post-market modifications installed, either at home or by unscrupulous mechanics, in order to go much faster. Which is ridiculously stupid, as it voids any insurance you have (obligatory at least in Germany) and may prevent you from ever getting a driving licence if caught by police.
- firebacon 6y agoThis "tiny cube" weighs 500kg. For comparison, the first car I owned, a Fiat Punto, also had 500kg. In hindsight, I'm happy that I wasn't allowed to drive it at age 14 without a license; I'm pretty sure that I would have killed somebody...
- znpy 6y agoIn fairness, it had to be said that in Italy (fiat Punto, I guess you're Italian?) in the time where no license was required to drive 50cc and no helmet was mandatory it was pretty much a anarchy on streets. I had to get a license at 16 to drive a 125cc (both theoretical and actual driving test) and many of my peers had taken a smaller test (theoretical only) at 14 to drive their 50cc. I am satisfied that such exams are now mandatory and helmets are mandatory too.
- dmitryminkovsky 6y agoYeah this thing is quite luxurious I’m not sure the authors realized this. Either that or this sponsored content. I know you’re not supposed to say that here, but it really felt like that. Seemed to be totally lacking any critical perspective. Couldn’t figure it out. I also don’t get how these are supposed to be safe for 14 year olds and pedestrians.
- user5994461 6y agoIt's really not luxurious. 6000 euros brand new.
- dmitryminkovsky 6y agoThat's a lot of euros... ...not to mention they focus on 14 year olds (like they're marketing to parents?). The idea that children should be driving around in vehicles that are the result of millions of man-hours of engineering and thousands of man-hours of labor (adults and likely other children in other countries in the supply chain)... well, that's intensely luxurious. End-of-days luxurious, in my opinion.
- C1sc0cat 6y ago18 in the UK and in some us states CA I believe you need a full Bike licence for a 50cc.
- bArray 6y agoA 50cc moped is 16 in the UK.
- Ancapistani 6y agoHere in Arkansas, a “Class MD” license - motorcycles up to 250cc - can be had at 14.
- Ntrails 6y ago[1] I don't have official statistics but anecdotally I can say that as a teenager, almost everyone I knew had modified their moped or scooter. Anecdotally neither me, nor anyone I knew, had their mopeds modded to exceed the limiter
- jeromenerf 6y ago50cc moped and scooter hacking and ricing is no longer fashionable. I see a lot more of suits-on-a-tmax and deliveroo-like drivers these days. Oh, and quite a few of those loud-right-out-of-the-box cars and motorcycles.
- mastazi 6y agoI haven't lived in Italy for 10 years, so I'm a bit out of the loop! Here in Australia I see a lot of the delivery guys, but very few maxi-scooters (I think one reason for that is the way cities/roads are built, which makes it more convenient to choose public transport or car over scooters).
- dehrmann 6y agoI wonder if 14-year-olds would drive these micro cars differently than mopeds because they're more enclosed. Does the inherent sense of danger with a moped limit you in some ways?
- analog31 6y agoI live near a university, so I would have to say no. Scooters tend to be ridden full throttle, limited only by the governor (which is often defeated) and the weight of the rider. If anything, the enclosed body might make it more boring, and thus more likely to be driven slowly.
- lultimouomo 6y agoAs a former italian 14-years-old, I can say that I did not perceive any inherent sense of danger driving a moped. If anything, I would say that a minicar would have prevented me from constantly zig-zaging between cars in the city traffic. OTOH, a couple of moped accidents have quickly taught me to pay a lot of attention to other vehicles and to somehow anticipate their behavior. It's a risky but effective school. As a parent of a current 14yo, I notice that her and her friends show almost no interest in mopeds or any form of autonomous transportation, while for us it was a must have - either you parents gave you one, or you kept relentlessly for fighting for it. I don't know what to make of it.
- dehrmann 6y ago> I notice that her and her friends show almost no interest in mopeds or any form of autonomous transportation Is this a broader thing? Are kids just not as interested in getting out of the house as they used to be? Less interested in being independent? Or maybe I'm reading too much into it and they're just more interested in being on TikTok.
- lultimouomo 6y ago> Are kids just not as interested in getting out of the house as they used to be? Less interested in being independent? That's a thought that often crosses my mind, but I try not to say it out loud because it makes me feel like an old fart.
- ponker 6y agoProbably safer for the 14 year old but not for the pedestrians
- mastazi 6y agoRight, this is a counter argument I heard a few times, I forgot to mention it in my comment.
- posedge 6y agoPlease don't say 'Europe' when you mean 'Italy'.
- rootusrootus 6y agoI think this is good advice in most any thread on HN. I have lost count of the number of "In Europe it is this way" posts that have immediate replies saying "umm, not in all of Europe" from some other European. There is a fair amount of difference even between various states in the US, and I imagine that the difference between European states is much more significant. Difficult to generalize.
- mastazi 6y agoBut I didn't mean Italy. "Seven countries require children to be 14 years (Estonia, France, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Poland and Portugal)" and this is only EU members, other non-members such as Switzerland also have 14yo minimum age for mopeds. In addition, "Ten Member States allow children aged 15 years to acquire a driving license for a moped (Austria, Czechia, Germany, Spain, Finland, Croatia, Lithuania, Sweden, Slovenia and Slovakia)." which is just one year older, so I would say it's a very similar situation. Source: https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements/drive-moped https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-ag...
- true_religion 6y agoAdding on to this, it shouldn't be very shocking even for Americans. Half the US states consider scooters to just be electric bikes, and have no restrictions beyond speed limits, and helmet laws. It's a shame scooters are illegal in NYC, it seems like it would be a great place for it. Edit: looks like NYC legalized in July 2020
- ajmurmann 6y agoI'll never understand what drove the decision to make the limit for these 45km/h. The speed limit on town frequently is 50km/h which puts these things maximum speed just an infuriatingly small amount below that. I think everyone would be safer if the maximum for the vehicles was 55km/h since it would reduce inventive for risky overtaking. Even doing the opposite and reducing it to 40km/h would be safer since it would make it easier to overtake therm
- ornornor 6y agoIt might have to do with the fact that more speed causes exponentially more damage and lethality. I don’t know the exact figures but something like hitting a pedestrian at 40kmh they’d have 90% chance of survival and that goes down to 25% at 50kmh (I don’t know the exact numbers but that’s the idea) Maybe 45kmh was the best trade off between lethality and speed?