6 ms·

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-au

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-aut... If they have the ability and the inclination to remotely disable features, you don't own the car.

derefr 6y ago
Sure you do. You can locally disable their ability to remotely disable the car. Perfectly legal.
- gentleman11 6y ago
  Not if it involves breaking any digital locks or decryption, iirc.
- sbierwagen 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#United_Stat... >Section 103 (17 U.S.C Sec. 1201(a)(1)) of the DMCA states: >No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Is your Tesla covered by DMCA? IANAL but I don't think so. This clause is talking about DRM, which I am fairly certain is about the duplication/distribution of copyrighted content, which is not what you're doing if you bypass protections on your Tesla.
    - kevingadd 6y ago
      The DMCA has been held to apply to physical hardware in the past. Until 2015 it was ambiguous whether you even had a right to hack your own motor vehicle if encryption was used to secure its firmware, since that would normally be a violation. We didn't get the right to have third parties (i.e. repair shops, professionals) do it until 2018. https://hackaday.com/2018/10/26/dmca-review-big-win-for-right-to-repair-zero-for-right-to-tinker/ https://hackaday.com/2018/10/26/dmca-review-big-win-for-righ... Tesla could probably try to argue that the DMCA applies to parts of their firmware, since as far as I'm aware it still holds for some parts of other vehicles.
    - sbierwagen 6y ago
      John Deere has vigorously asserted that the software in their tractors is copyrighted, and anyone who modifies them is violating the DMCA: https://boingboing.net/2017/04/22/drm-eschatology.html https://boingboing.net/2017/04/22/drm-eschatology.html https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-03-05/farmers-fight-john-deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-03-05/farmers-f...
    - beervirus 6y ago
      The software that runs on the car, without which the car cannot function, is copyrighted.
      - fastball 6y ago
        Right, and the point of DMCA is to prevent the duplication of copyrighted content. So as long as you don't duplicate their firmware, the grounds to not have you modify it are very questionable.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  this is overstretching what ownership means. In general, if you buy a product to own it means you don't need to hack into it first. If I buy a laptop and I have to crack all the passwords first to get access to the system then that would not be considered 'owning it' in any normal sense of the term. In fact the most likely case in which that would be necessary is if it had been stolen
  - TheRealPomax 6y ago
    This analogy breaks down at the point where you don't need to hack into a Tesla to use it for its intended purpose at all: it'll drive just fine. It's more as if you bought a laptop, and in order to overclock it, you had to void the warranty. (which is, of course, entirely the case for almost every laptop on the market).
    - smt88 6y ago
      Eh, overclocking is still not a great analogy. Overclocking can cause harm (worse battery life, excessive heat). That potential for harm is a plausible reason to void the warranty. Tesla is just voiding the warranty as a punishment for opting out of their software-gated features. Those features aren't harmful to activate.
      - imtringued 6y ago
        >Overclocking can cause harm (worse battery life, excessive heat). How is that different from increasing the maximum acceleration of a car? Worse battery life and excessive heat. It is entirely possible that people think Tesla is greedy instead of Tesla choosing one trade off at the expense of another in software. Tesla's more expensive models often share the same battery and motor but they tend to push the hardware closer to its limits which also results in higher wear and tear. High performance cars usually need more frequent maintenance. It is entirely possible that warranty on the cheaper model is longer than on the higher end model and by installing the upgrade Tesla can no longer guarantee that longer warranty or any warranty at all.
- coronadisaster 6y ago
  You have been brainwashed, sorry.
api 6y ago
Ownership is so 20th century. Now we have the cloud!
- takeda 6y ago
  poof and car refuses to operate.
  - bigiain 6y ago
    I'm now imagining sitting stationary in a tunnel while traffic tries to get around me with "us-east-1 is currently experiencing service disruption" prominently displayed on my "Infotainment" screen...

derefr 6y ago

Sure you do. You can locally disable their ability to remotely disable the car. Perfectly legal.

gentleman11 6y ago
Not if it involves breaking any digital locks or decryption, iirc.
sbierwagen 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#United_Stat... >Section 103 (17 U.S.C Sec. 1201(a)(1)) of the DMCA states: >No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.
- fastball 6y ago
  Is your Tesla covered by DMCA? IANAL but I don't think so. This clause is talking about DRM, which I am fairly certain is about the duplication/distribution of copyrighted content, which is not what you're doing if you bypass protections on your Tesla.
  - kevingadd 6y ago
    The DMCA has been held to apply to physical hardware in the past. Until 2015 it was ambiguous whether you even had a right to hack your own motor vehicle if encryption was used to secure its firmware, since that would normally be a violation. We didn't get the right to have third parties (i.e. repair shops, professionals) do it until 2018. https://hackaday.com/2018/10/26/dmca-review-big-win-for-right-to-repair-zero-for-right-to-tinker/ https://hackaday.com/2018/10/26/dmca-review-big-win-for-righ... Tesla could probably try to argue that the DMCA applies to parts of their firmware, since as far as I'm aware it still holds for some parts of other vehicles.
  - sbierwagen 6y ago
    John Deere has vigorously asserted that the software in their tractors is copyrighted, and anyone who modifies them is violating the DMCA: https://boingboing.net/2017/04/22/drm-eschatology.html https://boingboing.net/2017/04/22/drm-eschatology.html https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-03-05/farmers-fight-john-deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-03-05/farmers-f...
  - beervirus 6y ago
    The software that runs on the car, without which the car cannot function, is copyrighted.
    - fastball 6y ago
      Right, and the point of DMCA is to prevent the duplication of copyrighted content. So as long as you don't duplicate their firmware, the grounds to not have you modify it are very questionable.
Barrin92 6y ago
this is overstretching what ownership means. In general, if you buy a product to own it means you don't need to hack into it first. If I buy a laptop and I have to crack all the passwords first to get access to the system then that would not be considered 'owning it' in any normal sense of the term. In fact the most likely case in which that would be necessary is if it had been stolen
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  This analogy breaks down at the point where you don't need to hack into a Tesla to use it for its intended purpose at all: it'll drive just fine. It's more as if you bought a laptop, and in order to overclock it, you had to void the warranty. (which is, of course, entirely the case for almost every laptop on the market).
  - smt88 6y ago
    Eh, overclocking is still not a great analogy. Overclocking can cause harm (worse battery life, excessive heat). That potential for harm is a plausible reason to void the warranty. Tesla is just voiding the warranty as a punishment for opting out of their software-gated features. Those features aren't harmful to activate.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      >Overclocking can cause harm (worse battery life, excessive heat). How is that different from increasing the maximum acceleration of a car? Worse battery life and excessive heat. It is entirely possible that people think Tesla is greedy instead of Tesla choosing one trade off at the expense of another in software. Tesla's more expensive models often share the same battery and motor but they tend to push the hardware closer to its limits which also results in higher wear and tear. High performance cars usually need more frequent maintenance. It is entirely possible that warranty on the cheaper model is longer than on the higher end model and by installing the upgrade Tesla can no longer guarantee that longer warranty or any warranty at all.
coronadisaster 6y ago
You have been brainwashed, sorry.

api 6y ago

Ownership is so 20th century. Now we have the cloud!

takeda 6y ago
poof and car refuses to operate.
- bigiain 6y ago
  I'm now imagining sitting stationary in a tunnel while traffic tries to get around me with "us-east-1 is currently experiencing service disruption" prominently displayed on my "Infotainment" screen...