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Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

228 points by warpech 6y ago

ozim 6y ago
“There’s no borders at all for IT engineers. They can find a job anywhere.” Uhm yeah, but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends. Probably they might have some properties bought already. So as it may seem really advantageous to be in IT, one might not be able to move to another country just like that...
- arez 6y ago
  not all of them, but many engineers are willing to move if they don't have kids and can make it work
  - ozim 6y ago
    If this BS going on will end up in couple of months they might be able to move back soon. If not, living somewhere abroad without close ones is going to hurt them in the long run. I moved out from my home country and in the place I live now people are nice, but I am never going to be one of them (so there are also not nice people, but it is easier to deal with not nice people from your own country). Some people have it even worse, because I can go back to my own country and have my friends from school and family quite close by. There are people who are children of migrants that are still treated on the streets like they are not part of that society even though they grew up in that country. It gets even worse for them when they go to visit their parents country because they look familiar to people but when they speak they use English or broken local language which makes them foreign there as well. In the end they are not welcome in the place they grew up, they are not welcome in the place where they fit in by looks. They don't have a place in the entire world they can go and feel like home.
    - morelisp 6y ago
      The term for this in English is "third-culture kid." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      You have quite a negative view of immigration. It works well for many people (while for others it doesn't). Children are quite adaptable. The West is long ago not 100% white and it's only gonna become more pronounced the coming decades. It's mixed. Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants. Those children you describe may have a few rough episodes in their upbringing, but won't they have more rough episodes growing up in Belarus? Some proportion is needed.
      - throwaway5398 6y ago
        >Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants. 1. The US may become a white-minority country. Europe, not really. Whites are still the majority, and are going to remain so in the distant future. The "Great Replacement" isn't real. 2. Most immigrants to EU countries are from other countries within the EU and white themselves. 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people. 4. One's ability to integrate and be welcomed depends far more on cultural differences than "looking" different. This is why people from former colonies immigrate to the country that colonized them - lasting vestigial ties and a common language help far more than sticking to people who share one's skin color.
        skissane 6y ago
        > 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people. The US government officially considers Arab people to be "white". [1] Some Arab Americans disagree with this and believe they are not "white", other Arab Americans identify with the "white" label and want to keep it. The former group have been lobbying the US government to create a separate category, e.g. "Middle Eastern and North African", thus far non-successfully. Unlike the US, I don't believe most EU countries have a formally adopted definition of "white" (the EU as a whole certainly doesn't.) But, just like in the US, it would be wrong to think there would be a single viewpoint. So the statement that Arab people are "not considered 'white' by Westerners" is a bit dubious – some Westerners no doubt think that, other Westerners actually do think Arab people are "white", yet other Westerners just don't think about the concept "white" or its definition that much at all, or think that "white" is an arbitrary category which should not be used [1] https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html
    - pawelmurias 6y ago
      People in Belarous are white and their children can very easily blend in most places in the EU.
      - throwaway5398 6y ago
        As if one's ability to blend depended on one's skin color alone, and that wasn't trumped by culture and language.
        bonoboTP 6y ago
        The next gen can blend in very easily, if they go to kindergarten and school there. They will grow up bilingual and only use the original language at home, and may not even pass on the language to the 3rd generation (because it's seen as a useless extra burden and the 3rd gen can talk to their grandparents - the 1st gen - in the new language). Happens all the time in Europe.
      - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
        That's an extremely american response. I guarantee you someone from Belarus would pretty much never be seen as a native Pole unless they spoke flawless Polish (no accent at all).
- nomadrat 6y ago
  And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers".
  - ozim 6y ago
    Agree, it is no borders for "digital nomads" from first world countries having nice passports. Take into account COVID-19 pandemic and it is not as easy to move somewhere just now.
    - sam_lowry_ 6y ago
      Neighboring Lithuania and Ukraine already eased visa regimes for Belarusians in hope to attrack highly skilled workers fleeing Lukashenka.
      - useyourforce 6y ago
        Yet Lithuania requires all of moving staff to apply for the Blue Card. Minority of programmers are eligible for it.
    - nomadrat 6y ago
      yeah i'm from Belarus, so i know everything about borders and also pandemic-related visiting troubles. currently in Vilnius on almost expired residence permit
  - akira2501 6y ago
    Yea, whoever wrote that never heard of a "language barrier." IT is not some universal language.
    - sam_lowry_ 6y ago
      Language is not that much of a problem. They all speak Russian. Lithuania has a sizable minority of Russian speakers, and has historical ties to Belarus. Latvia is predominantly Russian-speaking. Ukraine as well. Knowing Belarusian, they can pick up Polish rather quickly. As a last resort, Russia is still freer than Belarus politically and better off economically. Smolensk is half an hour drive from the Belarusian border.
- nathanvanfleet 6y ago
  Yeah that is incredible. Minsk has been having the government shut down their internet and there are numerous other countries blocking people from contacting the outside world. Not to mention constraints around getting VISAs and also everything you are mentioning as well. There is a very real border around it. Even smaller issues would be language and time zone.
- slezyr 6y ago
  Not sure if he actually said this. There is no source and I can't find it in russian as well.
- dheera 6y ago
  > but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends + boyfriends, romantic partners I agree with the motivation of your statement, just wanted to complete it to reduce the (likely unintentional on your part but implicit) hetero-male stereotype of software engineers.
  - sam_lowry_ 6y ago
    Computer Programmers are almost all male in Belarus, but QA, Graphics Designers, Data Science, etc roles are very often female, which makes for a rather decent 70/30 gender distribution in headcount (2020 PVT numbers).
    - dheera 6y ago
      Sure, they may be almost all male now, but (a) there are still females and non-hetero people in the mix (b) I still think it is worth not propagating stereotypes in language. The first step toward positive change is to change the way people think about these roles, and remove the automatic mental picture of a hetero male when people say "software engineer". That feeds back into the hiring loop and worsens the problem. I have no intention to start a fuss, but I just think that it would be a nice gesture to make sure our language is as inclusive as possible, and so made a suggestion on a small change that would do that. (Also, I'm surprised at all the downvotes, I thought HN was a better crowd of people than that. I mean if you don't want to upvote it that's fine, but I'm really surprised that many people actively downvoted my comment. How would it hurt you for the language to be more inclusive? By downvoting it, did you want to maintain that we only mention "girlfriends"? By downvoting, you are part of the problem in tech today.)
      - imtringued 6y ago
        Honestly it's a matter of motivation and dedication. Boys like videos games so they end up using either consoles or computers a lot. Some of them want to make their own game and learn programming. Anyone who reads injustice into this doesn't understand anything about humans. People may think that career choice is something special and magical when it is not. Let's say you have become a successful developer. Now you want to work on a side project. There are so many choices and possibilities. Most of them are equally good. You choose something. Then you get stuck, bored or the rest of your life gets in the way. You scrap the old thing and do something new. Rinse and repeat. After 5 unfinished side projects you feel like you have accomplished nothing. The reality is that you didn't actually care about any of the side projects. If you cared about them you would have stuck with them until completion. Making a choice and staying with it is difficult at any stage in your life. Unless... it is extremely obvious and necessary. Suddenly there is no question about it. You you know very little about electronics but think you absolutely need to design a custom PCB for this important project and you're not going to compromise on this at all. You read up on electronics theory for 3 whole weeks without even thinking a single thought about your final design, pick some components and feel lost reading the datasheet. Start up your EDA suite get mad and feel like everything is hopeless the first few days. Two weeks later you have finally designed a good enough schematic and then suddenly everything is easy in hindsight. You didn't have the qualifications to finish this project but did so anyway, all you needed was a little motivation and dedication. If there is a need, it will be met. If you think someone should do X, then give them a reason to do X. This applies to "software engineers" and all other professions equally. The overlap between talented and motivated students exists for a reason. Talent is just motivation in disguise.
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > Probably they might have some properties bought already. Are you talking about properties bought as investments?
- baybal2 6y ago
  > Uhm yeah, but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends. Probably they might have some properties bought already. So as it may seem really advantageous to be in IT, one might not be able to move to another country just like that... > And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers". 1. Qualification: 1.1 University degree, usually means a Western university degree, or a few top tier ones in your own country. Lots of people from the East choose Western education not because they think so highly of it, but because a Western degree contributes to their visa eligibility. 1.2 Even if you have a Western degree, your troubles don't end there. Eligibility criteria often cover the most trendy topics as usual, but may stumble at something dumb as a requirement for a verbatim match of the degree title: i.e. the most dumb on my memory was "Electronics Engineering" getting a pass, but "Microelectronics Engineering" not, while this very much being the originaly intended criteria. The inviting countries are obviously more than content with the amount of people they can cherry pick with the utmost capriciousness. 1.3 Your usual age, health, crime check, marriage status check, security check (telling them you are not a spy, and not alkayeda) 1.3.1 The last few former may involve waiting for completely idiotic paper on your side of your border. A fake crime check note costs 1000 roubles cash ($20) to get from every cop, but may take few months if you want to get it legally, especially if you are from a far away province. 1.3.1.1 A completely innocent note on the former, like being a witness in a court case, or a traffic ticket will subject you to months of pain, and if some countries 100% denial rate, after being flagged in every international rogue person database. 1.4 Regulatory capture works in immigration too. This is they way Microsoft handwrote much of non-public selection criteria for professional evaluation in BC, Canada to unfairly gain advantage attracting foreign labour who are using MS stack. 2. Life situations: 2.1 Lots of Western countries outright deny family applicants, some on other hand given huge bonus. 2.2 Lots of Western countries use immigration programs to repopulate their dying, depopulating regions. Canada will happily settle any amount of Chinese, Indians, and Africans if they agree to live somewhere in New Brunswick 2.3 Lots of Western countries will never allow you to settle down, or pretend to say they will, but then repeatedly change the goalpost in their immigration programs: Canada, Australia. 2.4 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants older than forties to mid thirties 2.5 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women 2.6 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women with children 2.7 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women who are single 2.8 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women who are not single 2.9 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants with just any health condition 3. Incentives: 3.1 Prime majority of countries don't want any more of their own people, let alone strangers. In such, immigration programs are ran as a token sign to say "hey, we are so International, we are not bigots at all!" 3.2 The minority of countries who are actively soliciting immigration are not much better, and some times worse. They obviously have their own agendas. Very often have an interest to crush their own labour into submission, or serve a political agenda. Less frequently, outright exploitation: Gulf, much of East Asia. 3.3 Incentives often are a carrot on a stick, with this stick being constantly moved forward: you a just 1 month away from a permanent residency, a month passes... wham! now qualify for 1 more year for something else 3.4 Countries providing incentives often do so, when their industries don't do well. You will be moving to a country with an already present oversupply of professionals after a downturn. Some times problems will be structural, i.e. Singapore (negative selection, where best leave, and create more openings for cheaper helloworld webdevs to move it.) 3.4 Accordingly, countries that already do well, rarely invite. 3.5 Wages today vary much in between top employers, not so much localities. Earning post tax $10k USD a month somewhere in China, India, or Vietnam is INCOMPARABLY better deal than in the West. 3.6 Accordingly, top companies in the West are no longer eager to employ foreigners in hopes to get top talent anymore. Why hire them for $10k in USA with its unions, labour rights, sjw storm, when you can hire the same guy in your captive outsourcing centre in every major 3rd world country? 3.7 Moving internationally is still freaking expensive, for a person with an already established life, a move from the depth of a third world country to USA can take anywhere up to $40k. This alone may be one years' profit of that man/woman. 3.8 Following 3.7, top tier professionals have much better odds of further progression at home. I knew like 10 guys in China who worked on $10k+ USD jobs in Googles, Amazons, and others who managed to start their business after a single year savings from such jobs. Now, try opening a business yourself as an immigrant abroad. 3.9 A lot of immigration programs outright state that you are being prohibited from running any enterprise. 3.10 A lot of immigration programs for higher calibre talents wanting to setup their businesses in the country are an outright robbery, like a requirement for 51% local capital, waving your patents to inviting research institution, or specifically waving some of your shareholder rights.
robinduckett 6y ago
I used to contract for a firm which made heavy use of Belarusian software dev teams, hopefully all is cool with the guys I used to work with :S
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Same. It also seems like Belarus is killing the goose that laid the golden egg here, not that that’s surprising behavior from an authoritarian regime fighting for its life.
  - robinduckett 6y ago
    Crazy to see it's EPAM which is the company my old client used. Also crazy to see Yandex evacuated staff (presumably back to Russia?) which kind of feels like being tossed from the frying pan into the fire...
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    > It also seems like Belarus is killing the goose that laid the golden egg here If some kind of deeper integration with Russia is on the horizon, as many have expected for years, then this might hardly matter. The overall Russian economy is so based on the export of natural resources, that the ruling stratum is hardly worried about other industries like the IT sector. All those Russians except for the ~10 million needed to run and support the oil and gas sector, have sometimes been described as "superfluous population" by commentators. Obviously this situation sucks for the ordinary citizen, but what can you do?
    - hpkuarg 6y ago
      Man, Russia has way more people than I thought. For some reason I expected it to be less than 100 million total.
      - juniper_strong 6y ago
        The Germans had that delusion too.
Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
For those that hit a paywall/ no-script block, here are some alternative links to what I presume to be pretty much the same article https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-tech-idUKKBN25M1MO https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-tech-idUK... https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/europe/belarus-it-workers-move-abroad-as-lukashenkos-forces-crackdown-on-mas.html https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/europe/belarus-it-w... https://icotalknews.com/business/tech-workers-flee-belarus-as-it-haven-takes-authoritarian-turn/ https://icotalknews.com/business/tech-workers-flee-belarus-a... P.P.S This was one of things I used to use the now defunct 'Web' button for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23762479 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23762479
- ShorsHammer 6y ago
  most news articles can be traced beck to Reuters verbatim, it's strange how few people go to the actual source and seek out a rose-tinted alternative
YarickR2 6y ago
They felt fine with Lukashenko for the last four years, they'll be fine with Lukashenko for the next four years. Actually, I don't think Daddy will hold up for the whole term, Russia will play smart and integrate Belarus , one way or another. Not as part of Russia, but I'd expect closer ties in finances and planning; and, possibly, heavy industry
vikramkr 6y ago
It was already authorization- its the "last dictatorship in europe" - what did they think it was before?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > its the "last dictatorship in europe" Well, I mean, if you ignore the country that takes up 39% (maybe a little more de facto after recent unilateral border alterations) of Europe, sure.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - fabatka 6y ago
    In the quote I think Europe is meant in the cultural sense, and I guess you are talking about Europe in the geographical sense.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Belarus is no more (or less) culturally in Europe than Russia or any of the other cultures descending from historical Rus.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    The ‘last dictatorship in Europe’ moniker dates back to a time when the general impression was that Russia was democratising. It’s definitely more dubious now.
  - vikramkr 6y ago
    I used the scare quotes for a reason- Belarus definitely isn't the only dictatorship in Europe, but its a common enough nickname for it that you really should be surprised if a country that's nicknamed the "last" dictatorships is authoritarian. Also, you could probably argue that Russia is Asian, or that turkey is European, its not like there's a clear historical or geographic border, so there's some flexibility in how many dictatorships or authoritarian leaning countries you include
WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
I have a theory that when news orgs nurture soft authoritarians (Bush/Patriot Act, Obama/espionage charges for whistleblowers) their weakened journalistic instincts leave a vacuum that's easy for harder line authoritarians to fill. That's what I believed happened in the US. I wonder if a similar process happened in Belarus.
- jwilber 6y ago
  Curious why the onus is on journalists and not complacent political parties or branches/members of government. Sure, newsrooms can sway public opinion, but they’re also basically the only reason we know about those problems to begin with. Blaming them seems akin to treating a symptom, not the cause. Not trying to disagree. I do think journalists today are partially responsible for our current situation - especially White House correspondents, whom are wholly ineffective at challenging any statements from the president or calling out outright lies.
  - spamizbad 6y ago
    Also thinking journalists are at the root of society's ills is probably a sign you're buying into authoritarian propaganda.
    - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
      Authoritarian propaganda alleges that journalists are fabricating news. I'm not alleging fraud but neglect and passive collusion. That is, journalists are allowing certain US Gov misdeeds to go largely unreported while amplifying US Gov voices w/o ever vetting if official claims are true.
      - spamizbad 6y ago
        A lot of misdeeds are documented but nobody is really outraged by them. There's certainly lots of bad stuff happening that doesn't have a legion of takery behind it to drive a certain narrative but... the reporting is there.
deleted 6y ago
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evv555 6y ago
>Despite the authoritarian rule of Alexander Lukashenko, Belarus’s tech companies have prospered. The common argument I hear is they prospered because of authoritarian rule. Belarus never had to deal with oligarchs created by a power vacuum like in Ukraine or other EE countries. As a result a large portion of outsourcing labor for other EE countries is technically done through Belarussian companies(EPAM).
- sam_lowry_ 6y ago
  If you go to Belarus, you would rather hear that IT prospered because Lukashenka could not figure out how to extract money from it easily. There were a few attempts at hostile takeovers of IT companies by state actors, but the state could seize only used equipment. Staff moved on, clients fled. So, at some point, the state just decided to let IT free at the effective tax rate of 9% (against 52% for the rest of the country).
  - SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
    Living in Central Asia, I'd say, although Lukashenko was/is a corrupt leader, amount of corruption in educational system was relatively low compared to those in -stans of the former USSR, or even Russia. This a necessary prerequisite for high tech companies to appear and grow.
    - evv555 6y ago
      I think it's a qualitative difference. Belarus has corruption but it's consolidated to the top even if there's more of it. Compare with Ukraine where IT business will be killed off before it gets off the ground because every small time bureaucrat wants their pound of flesh. As a result a significant portion of Ukrainian talent goes through companies that are/were Belarussian even though Ukraine has the center of gravity in terms of talent concentration.
- ivan_gammel 6y ago
  Absence of oligarchs has nothing to do with this. Belarus and Russia have very different political situation but IT industry is strong in both countries, even stronger in Russia. There are several reasons for it: strong educational system and engineering culture, piracy and almost no law enforcement of copyright, favorable taxation, government policies. It’s hard to underestimate the effects of investment in digitalization of government services in Russia and influence of it on the Russian-speaking IT ecosystem, including neighboring countries - to the point where Russian speaking conferences or meetups are way more interesting than English speaking ones.
jakozaur 6y ago
Emigrating from Belarus to Poland is easy. Even if one of your grandparents has Polish origins you can get easily equivalent of USA green card. Polish governament is working on new law to make it even easier and available more broadly. Given Poland borders before World War II were covering huge part of today Belarus a lot of people can take of the advantage. Regular work permit for IT proffesional is also rubber stamp. Nothing compared to cruel H1B. I guess same as after Ukraine revolution, a lot of Belarusians will end up in Poland.
- newsbinator 6y ago
  There is the matter of family records having been lost in fires during/after WW2, and having to take a Polish language test.
- andyroid 6y ago
  From my friends in Poland I hear many of them are considering moving after the latest election and the direction the country seems to be heading. Good to know there are tech workers from Belarus to step into their positions.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    If they get an EU citizenship, they may not stay in Poland for long.
    - crispyporkbites 6y ago
      Most likely they will want to stay close to Belarus, as most will have family that remains and be hopeful that their country improves in the future.
      - severino 6y ago
        > be hopeful that their country improves in the future Yes, but things can go into the other direction too, if for example the EU takes over and their good old country turns into another failed state ala Ukraine...
rbanffy 6y ago
There's a Spanish proverb, “Cria cuervos y te sacarán los ojos”, “Raise crows and they will poke your eyes out.” How many entrepreneurs and companies fell for the "law and order" discourse every authoritarian uses to gain power?
mrslave 6y ago
There is at least a degree of cowardice in those who leave their home country when things get difficult.
- auslegung 6y ago
  I don’t know that that’s always true, but it may seem frequently true. The time to do something is before things get bad, but it’s difficult to convince oneself to act when things aren’t “that bad”. In short, it’s complicated.
- postingawayonhn 6y ago
  I think everyone has the right to make the best possible life for themselves. Life is short and if I was in that situation I'd rather not waste it living under a dictator.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  A notion of duty to your country is well and good, but consider this: 1) Greater duty to family, what are you going to tell your wife when she asks you how is she meant to feed the kids and keep a roof while you serve a 20 year sentence for protesting? Or worse yet if you are maimed or killed. 2) This isn't like a 'normal' war, the course of action is not clear. Should I take up arms and attack government buildings, or would that backfire in terms of public support? Should I protest peacefully, or does that just give the dictator more time to prepare? If I already live outside, should I return to Belarus and put my body on the like, or would I be more effective donating cash that I am privileged to earn?
person_of_color 6y ago
One of my favourite cameras, the Agat 18k, is Belarussian. These guys are smart!
samunism 6y ago
This is a harbinger for the western world too. Can any of us in the tech industry claim that silicon valley "authoritarianism" is not an issue? Working in tech now is fraught with peril, especially if one says anything outside of the overton window. I wouldn't be surprised if this starts happening in America as well in a few years.
- pas 6y ago
  The issue is that currently public discourse happens on semi-public spaces. (Eg. Facebook, reddit, YouTube.) All slightly different mediums, different rules, different communities (and meta-communities, and other aggregates and hierarchies and moderation/reporting systems). And the owners of these places want to extract profit from these places, they on one hand like the money, but they reasonably must police their places. Virtually millions of people can shout at the same time at the same place. Bullying, doxxing, harassment, SWATing, spam, scam, porn, gore, really fucked up ideologies, racism/xenophobia, and whatnot are cropping up. And it's clear that people are not really interested in going back to the typewriter and mailing letters to various publications. This large scale "politicing" is likely truly unprecedented. Bored and angry people can comment, like, upvote, downvote whatever anyone wrote/posted/created/asked. > Working in tech now is fraught with peril, especially if one says anything outside of the overton window. That's "fake news" - because the base rate is low, even if there are clear examples of it. (Eg Google firing Damore who pointed out that Google's diversity group/effort is very inefficient because it's unscientific, so inadvertently exposed it as a simple PR effort.)
Nginx487 6y ago
Fleeing from Belarus to Russia, from one lifetime president and authoritarian regime to another is a strange choice.
ibobev 6y ago
It is a very smart turn of the Polish side to support the political crysis is Belarus. When the country is turned into chaos it will be beneficial for the Polish economy when many Belarussian workers go to Poland. "IT haven takes authoritarian turn". Really? Isn't the so called IT haven exists under the exactly same government? What changed? What changed is the situation of foreign instigated chaos intended to weaken a key Russian ally with the additional benefit that when many Belarussian workers leave the country they will serv someone's else economy. The competition of Belarussian IT industry will also be eliminated.

228 points by warpech 6y ago

ozim 6y ago

“There’s no borders at all for IT engineers. They can find a job anywhere.” Uhm yeah, but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends. Probably they might have some properties bought already. So as it may seem really advantageous to be in IT, one might not be able to move to another country just like that...

arez 6y ago
not all of them, but many engineers are willing to move if they don't have kids and can make it work
- ozim 6y ago
  If this BS going on will end up in couple of months they might be able to move back soon. If not, living somewhere abroad without close ones is going to hurt them in the long run. I moved out from my home country and in the place I live now people are nice, but I am never going to be one of them (so there are also not nice people, but it is easier to deal with not nice people from your own country). Some people have it even worse, because I can go back to my own country and have my friends from school and family quite close by. There are people who are children of migrants that are still treated on the streets like they are not part of that society even though they grew up in that country. It gets even worse for them when they go to visit their parents country because they look familiar to people but when they speak they use English or broken local language which makes them foreign there as well. In the end they are not welcome in the place they grew up, they are not welcome in the place where they fit in by looks. They don't have a place in the entire world they can go and feel like home.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    The term for this in English is "third-culture kid." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    You have quite a negative view of immigration. It works well for many people (while for others it doesn't). Children are quite adaptable. The West is long ago not 100% white and it's only gonna become more pronounced the coming decades. It's mixed. Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants. Those children you describe may have a few rough episodes in their upbringing, but won't they have more rough episodes growing up in Belarus? Some proportion is needed.
    - throwaway5398 6y ago
      >Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants. 1. The US may become a white-minority country. Europe, not really. Whites are still the majority, and are going to remain so in the distant future. The "Great Replacement" isn't real. 2. Most immigrants to EU countries are from other countries within the EU and white themselves. 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people. 4. One's ability to integrate and be welcomed depends far more on cultural differences than "looking" different. This is why people from former colonies immigrate to the country that colonized them - lasting vestigial ties and a common language help far more than sticking to people who share one's skin color.
      - skissane 6y ago
        > 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people. The US government officially considers Arab people to be "white". [1] Some Arab Americans disagree with this and believe they are not "white", other Arab Americans identify with the "white" label and want to keep it. The former group have been lobbying the US government to create a separate category, e.g. "Middle Eastern and North African", thus far non-successfully. Unlike the US, I don't believe most EU countries have a formally adopted definition of "white" (the EU as a whole certainly doesn't.) But, just like in the US, it would be wrong to think there would be a single viewpoint. So the statement that Arab people are "not considered 'white' by Westerners" is a bit dubious – some Westerners no doubt think that, other Westerners actually do think Arab people are "white", yet other Westerners just don't think about the concept "white" or its definition that much at all, or think that "white" is an arbitrary category which should not be used [1] https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html
  - pawelmurias 6y ago
    People in Belarous are white and their children can very easily blend in most places in the EU.
    - throwaway5398 6y ago
      As if one's ability to blend depended on one's skin color alone, and that wasn't trumped by culture and language.
      - bonoboTP 6y ago
        The next gen can blend in very easily, if they go to kindergarten and school there. They will grow up bilingual and only use the original language at home, and may not even pass on the language to the 3rd generation (because it's seen as a useless extra burden and the 3rd gen can talk to their grandparents - the 1st gen - in the new language). Happens all the time in Europe.
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
      That's an extremely american response. I guarantee you someone from Belarus would pretty much never be seen as a native Pole unless they spoke flawless Polish (no accent at all).
nomadrat 6y ago
And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers".
- ozim 6y ago
  Agree, it is no borders for "digital nomads" from first world countries having nice passports. Take into account COVID-19 pandemic and it is not as easy to move somewhere just now.
  - sam_lowry_ 6y ago
    Neighboring Lithuania and Ukraine already eased visa regimes for Belarusians in hope to attrack highly skilled workers fleeing Lukashenka.
    - useyourforce 6y ago
      Yet Lithuania requires all of moving staff to apply for the Blue Card. Minority of programmers are eligible for it.
  - nomadrat 6y ago
    yeah i'm from Belarus, so i know everything about borders and also pandemic-related visiting troubles. currently in Vilnius on almost expired residence permit
- akira2501 6y ago
  Yea, whoever wrote that never heard of a "language barrier." IT is not some universal language.
  - sam_lowry_ 6y ago
    Language is not that much of a problem. They all speak Russian. Lithuania has a sizable minority of Russian speakers, and has historical ties to Belarus. Latvia is predominantly Russian-speaking. Ukraine as well. Knowing Belarusian, they can pick up Polish rather quickly. As a last resort, Russia is still freer than Belarus politically and better off economically. Smolensk is half an hour drive from the Belarusian border.
nathanvanfleet 6y ago
Yeah that is incredible. Minsk has been having the government shut down their internet and there are numerous other countries blocking people from contacting the outside world. Not to mention constraints around getting VISAs and also everything you are mentioning as well. There is a very real border around it. Even smaller issues would be language and time zone.
slezyr 6y ago
Not sure if he actually said this. There is no source and I can't find it in russian as well.
dheera 6y ago
> but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends + boyfriends, romantic partners I agree with the motivation of your statement, just wanted to complete it to reduce the (likely unintentional on your part but implicit) hetero-male stereotype of software engineers.
- sam_lowry_ 6y ago
  Computer Programmers are almost all male in Belarus, but QA, Graphics Designers, Data Science, etc roles are very often female, which makes for a rather decent 70/30 gender distribution in headcount (2020 PVT numbers).
  - dheera 6y ago
    Sure, they may be almost all male now, but (a) there are still females and non-hetero people in the mix (b) I still think it is worth not propagating stereotypes in language. The first step toward positive change is to change the way people think about these roles, and remove the automatic mental picture of a hetero male when people say "software engineer". That feeds back into the hiring loop and worsens the problem. I have no intention to start a fuss, but I just think that it would be a nice gesture to make sure our language is as inclusive as possible, and so made a suggestion on a small change that would do that. (Also, I'm surprised at all the downvotes, I thought HN was a better crowd of people than that. I mean if you don't want to upvote it that's fine, but I'm really surprised that many people actively downvoted my comment. How would it hurt you for the language to be more inclusive? By downvoting it, did you want to maintain that we only mention "girlfriends"? By downvoting, you are part of the problem in tech today.)
    - imtringued 6y ago
      Honestly it's a matter of motivation and dedication. Boys like videos games so they end up using either consoles or computers a lot. Some of them want to make their own game and learn programming. Anyone who reads injustice into this doesn't understand anything about humans. People may think that career choice is something special and magical when it is not. Let's say you have become a successful developer. Now you want to work on a side project. There are so many choices and possibilities. Most of them are equally good. You choose something. Then you get stuck, bored or the rest of your life gets in the way. You scrap the old thing and do something new. Rinse and repeat. After 5 unfinished side projects you feel like you have accomplished nothing. The reality is that you didn't actually care about any of the side projects. If you cared about them you would have stuck with them until completion. Making a choice and staying with it is difficult at any stage in your life. Unless... it is extremely obvious and necessary. Suddenly there is no question about it. You you know very little about electronics but think you absolutely need to design a custom PCB for this important project and you're not going to compromise on this at all. You read up on electronics theory for 3 whole weeks without even thinking a single thought about your final design, pick some components and feel lost reading the datasheet. Start up your EDA suite get mad and feel like everything is hopeless the first few days. Two weeks later you have finally designed a good enough schematic and then suddenly everything is easy in hindsight. You didn't have the qualifications to finish this project but did so anyway, all you needed was a little motivation and dedication. If there is a need, it will be met. If you think someone should do X, then give them a reason to do X. This applies to "software engineers" and all other professions equally. The overlap between talented and motivated students exists for a reason. Talent is just motivation in disguise.
bergstromm466 6y ago
> Probably they might have some properties bought already. Are you talking about properties bought as investments?
baybal2 6y ago
> Uhm yeah, but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends. Probably they might have some properties bought already. So as it may seem really advantageous to be in IT, one might not be able to move to another country just like that... > And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers". 1. Qualification: 1.1 University degree, usually means a Western university degree, or a few top tier ones in your own country. Lots of people from the East choose Western education not because they think so highly of it, but because a Western degree contributes to their visa eligibility. 1.2 Even if you have a Western degree, your troubles don't end there. Eligibility criteria often cover the most trendy topics as usual, but may stumble at something dumb as a requirement for a verbatim match of the degree title: i.e. the most dumb on my memory was "Electronics Engineering" getting a pass, but "Microelectronics Engineering" not, while this very much being the originaly intended criteria. The inviting countries are obviously more than content with the amount of people they can cherry pick with the utmost capriciousness. 1.3 Your usual age, health, crime check, marriage status check, security check (telling them you are not a spy, and not alkayeda) 1.3.1 The last few former may involve waiting for completely idiotic paper on your side of your border. A fake crime check note costs 1000 roubles cash ($20) to get from every cop, but may take few months if you want to get it legally, especially if you are from a far away province. 1.3.1.1 A completely innocent note on the former, like being a witness in a court case, or a traffic ticket will subject you to months of pain, and if some countries 100% denial rate, after being flagged in every international rogue person database. 1.4 Regulatory capture works in immigration too. This is they way Microsoft handwrote much of non-public selection criteria for professional evaluation in BC, Canada to unfairly gain advantage attracting foreign labour who are using MS stack. 2. Life situations: 2.1 Lots of Western countries outright deny family applicants, some on other hand given huge bonus. 2.2 Lots of Western countries use immigration programs to repopulate their dying, depopulating regions. Canada will happily settle any amount of Chinese, Indians, and Africans if they agree to live somewhere in New Brunswick 2.3 Lots of Western countries will never allow you to settle down, or pretend to say they will, but then repeatedly change the goalpost in their immigration programs: Canada, Australia. 2.4 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants older than forties to mid thirties 2.5 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women 2.6 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women with children 2.7 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women who are single 2.8 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women who are not single 2.9 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants with just any health condition 3. Incentives: 3.1 Prime majority of countries don't want any more of their own people, let alone strangers. In such, immigration programs are ran as a token sign to say "hey, we are so International, we are not bigots at all!" 3.2 The minority of countries who are actively soliciting immigration are not much better, and some times worse. They obviously have their own agendas. Very often have an interest to crush their own labour into submission, or serve a political agenda. Less frequently, outright exploitation: Gulf, much of East Asia. 3.3 Incentives often are a carrot on a stick, with this stick being constantly moved forward: you a just 1 month away from a permanent residency, a month passes... wham! now qualify for 1 more year for something else 3.4 Countries providing incentives often do so, when their industries don't do well. You will be moving to a country with an already present oversupply of professionals after a downturn. Some times problems will be structural, i.e. Singapore (negative selection, where best leave, and create more openings for cheaper helloworld webdevs to move it.) 3.4 Accordingly, countries that already do well, rarely invite. 3.5 Wages today vary much in between top employers, not so much localities. Earning post tax $10k USD a month somewhere in China, India, or Vietnam is INCOMPARABLY better deal than in the West. 3.6 Accordingly, top companies in the West are no longer eager to employ foreigners in hopes to get top talent anymore. Why hire them for $10k in USA with its unions, labour rights, sjw storm, when you can hire the same guy in your captive outsourcing centre in every major 3rd world country? 3.7 Moving internationally is still freaking expensive, for a person with an already established life, a move from the depth of a third world country to USA can take anywhere up to $40k. This alone may be one years' profit of that man/woman. 3.8 Following 3.7, top tier professionals have much better odds of further progression at home. I knew like 10 guys in China who worked on $10k+ USD jobs in Googles, Amazons, and others who managed to start their business after a single year savings from such jobs. Now, try opening a business yourself as an immigrant abroad. 3.9 A lot of immigration programs outright state that you are being prohibited from running any enterprise. 3.10 A lot of immigration programs for higher calibre talents wanting to setup their businesses in the country are an outright robbery, like a requirement for 51% local capital, waving your patents to inviting research institution, or specifically waving some of your shareholder rights.

robinduckett 6y ago

I used to contract for a firm which made heavy use of Belarusian software dev teams, hopefully all is cool with the guys I used to work with :S

ashtonkem 6y ago
Same. It also seems like Belarus is killing the goose that laid the golden egg here, not that that’s surprising behavior from an authoritarian regime fighting for its life.
- robinduckett 6y ago
  Crazy to see it's EPAM which is the company my old client used. Also crazy to see Yandex evacuated staff (presumably back to Russia?) which kind of feels like being tossed from the frying pan into the fire...
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > It also seems like Belarus is killing the goose that laid the golden egg here If some kind of deeper integration with Russia is on the horizon, as many have expected for years, then this might hardly matter. The overall Russian economy is so based on the export of natural resources, that the ruling stratum is hardly worried about other industries like the IT sector. All those Russians except for the ~10 million needed to run and support the oil and gas sector, have sometimes been described as "superfluous population" by commentators. Obviously this situation sucks for the ordinary citizen, but what can you do?
  - hpkuarg 6y ago
    Man, Russia has way more people than I thought. For some reason I expected it to be less than 100 million total.
    - juniper_strong 6y ago
      The Germans had that delusion too.

Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago

For those that hit a paywall/ no-script block, here are some alternative links to what I presume to be pretty much the same article https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-tech-idUKKBN25M1MO https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-tech-idUK... https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/europe/belarus-it-workers-move-abroad-as-lukashenkos-forces-crackdown-on-mas.html https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/europe/belarus-it-w... https://icotalknews.com/business/tech-workers-flee-belarus-as-it-haven-takes-authoritarian-turn/ https://icotalknews.com/business/tech-workers-flee-belarus-a... P.P.S This was one of things I used to use the now defunct 'Web' button for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23762479 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23762479

ShorsHammer 6y ago
most news articles can be traced beck to Reuters verbatim, it's strange how few people go to the actual source and seek out a rose-tinted alternative

YarickR2 6y ago

They felt fine with Lukashenko for the last four years, they'll be fine with Lukashenko for the next four years. Actually, I don't think Daddy will hold up for the whole term, Russia will play smart and integrate Belarus , one way or another. Not as part of Russia, but I'd expect closer ties in finances and planning; and, possibly, heavy industry

vikramkr 6y ago

It was already authorization- its the "last dictatorship in europe" - what did they think it was before?

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dragonwriter 6y ago
> its the "last dictatorship in europe" Well, I mean, if you ignore the country that takes up 39% (maybe a little more de facto after recent unilateral border alterations) of Europe, sure.
- deleted 6y ago
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- fabatka 6y ago
  In the quote I think Europe is meant in the cultural sense, and I guess you are talking about Europe in the geographical sense.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Belarus is no more (or less) culturally in Europe than Russia or any of the other cultures descending from historical Rus.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  The ‘last dictatorship in Europe’ moniker dates back to a time when the general impression was that Russia was democratising. It’s definitely more dubious now.
- vikramkr 6y ago
  I used the scare quotes for a reason- Belarus definitely isn't the only dictatorship in Europe, but its a common enough nickname for it that you really should be surprised if a country that's nicknamed the "last" dictatorships is authoritarian. Also, you could probably argue that Russia is Asian, or that turkey is European, its not like there's a clear historical or geographic border, so there's some flexibility in how many dictatorships or authoritarian leaning countries you include

WarOnPrivacy 6y ago

I have a theory that when news orgs nurture soft authoritarians (Bush/Patriot Act, Obama/espionage charges for whistleblowers) their weakened journalistic instincts leave a vacuum that's easy for harder line authoritarians to fill. That's what I believed happened in the US. I wonder if a similar process happened in Belarus.

jwilber 6y ago
Curious why the onus is on journalists and not complacent political parties or branches/members of government. Sure, newsrooms can sway public opinion, but they’re also basically the only reason we know about those problems to begin with. Blaming them seems akin to treating a symptom, not the cause. Not trying to disagree. I do think journalists today are partially responsible for our current situation - especially White House correspondents, whom are wholly ineffective at challenging any statements from the president or calling out outright lies.
- spamizbad 6y ago
  Also thinking journalists are at the root of society's ills is probably a sign you're buying into authoritarian propaganda.
  - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
    Authoritarian propaganda alleges that journalists are fabricating news. I'm not alleging fraud but neglect and passive collusion. That is, journalists are allowing certain US Gov misdeeds to go largely unreported while amplifying US Gov voices w/o ever vetting if official claims are true.
    - spamizbad 6y ago
      A lot of misdeeds are documented but nobody is really outraged by them. There's certainly lots of bad stuff happening that doesn't have a legion of takery behind it to drive a certain narrative but... the reporting is there.

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evv555 6y ago

>Despite the authoritarian rule of Alexander Lukashenko, Belarus’s tech companies have prospered. The common argument I hear is they prospered because of authoritarian rule. Belarus never had to deal with oligarchs created by a power vacuum like in Ukraine or other EE countries. As a result a large portion of outsourcing labor for other EE countries is technically done through Belarussian companies(EPAM).

sam_lowry_ 6y ago
If you go to Belarus, you would rather hear that IT prospered because Lukashenka could not figure out how to extract money from it easily. There were a few attempts at hostile takeovers of IT companies by state actors, but the state could seize only used equipment. Staff moved on, clients fled. So, at some point, the state just decided to let IT free at the effective tax rate of 9% (against 52% for the rest of the country).
- SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
  Living in Central Asia, I'd say, although Lukashenko was/is a corrupt leader, amount of corruption in educational system was relatively low compared to those in -stans of the former USSR, or even Russia. This a necessary prerequisite for high tech companies to appear and grow.
  - evv555 6y ago
    I think it's a qualitative difference. Belarus has corruption but it's consolidated to the top even if there's more of it. Compare with Ukraine where IT business will be killed off before it gets off the ground because every small time bureaucrat wants their pound of flesh. As a result a significant portion of Ukrainian talent goes through companies that are/were Belarussian even though Ukraine has the center of gravity in terms of talent concentration.
ivan_gammel 6y ago
Absence of oligarchs has nothing to do with this. Belarus and Russia have very different political situation but IT industry is strong in both countries, even stronger in Russia. There are several reasons for it: strong educational system and engineering culture, piracy and almost no law enforcement of copyright, favorable taxation, government policies. It’s hard to underestimate the effects of investment in digitalization of government services in Russia and influence of it on the Russian-speaking IT ecosystem, including neighboring countries - to the point where Russian speaking conferences or meetups are way more interesting than English speaking ones.

jakozaur 6y ago

Emigrating from Belarus to Poland is easy. Even if one of your grandparents has Polish origins you can get easily equivalent of USA green card. Polish governament is working on new law to make it even easier and available more broadly. Given Poland borders before World War II were covering huge part of today Belarus a lot of people can take of the advantage. Regular work permit for IT proffesional is also rubber stamp. Nothing compared to cruel H1B. I guess same as after Ukraine revolution, a lot of Belarusians will end up in Poland.

newsbinator 6y ago
There is the matter of family records having been lost in fires during/after WW2, and having to take a Polish language test.
andyroid 6y ago
From my friends in Poland I hear many of them are considering moving after the latest election and the direction the country seems to be heading. Good to know there are tech workers from Belarus to step into their positions.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  If they get an EU citizenship, they may not stay in Poland for long.
  - crispyporkbites 6y ago
    Most likely they will want to stay close to Belarus, as most will have family that remains and be hopeful that their country improves in the future.
    - severino 6y ago
      > be hopeful that their country improves in the future Yes, but things can go into the other direction too, if for example the EU takes over and their good old country turns into another failed state ala Ukraine...

rbanffy 6y ago

There's a Spanish proverb, “Cria cuervos y te sacarán los ojos”, “Raise crows and they will poke your eyes out.” How many entrepreneurs and companies fell for the "law and order" discourse every authoritarian uses to gain power?

mrslave 6y ago

There is at least a degree of cowardice in those who leave their home country when things get difficult.

auslegung 6y ago
I don’t know that that’s always true, but it may seem frequently true. The time to do something is before things get bad, but it’s difficult to convince oneself to act when things aren’t “that bad”. In short, it’s complicated.
postingawayonhn 6y ago
I think everyone has the right to make the best possible life for themselves. Life is short and if I was in that situation I'd rather not waste it living under a dictator.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
A notion of duty to your country is well and good, but consider this: 1) Greater duty to family, what are you going to tell your wife when she asks you how is she meant to feed the kids and keep a roof while you serve a 20 year sentence for protesting? Or worse yet if you are maimed or killed. 2) This isn't like a 'normal' war, the course of action is not clear. Should I take up arms and attack government buildings, or would that backfire in terms of public support? Should I protest peacefully, or does that just give the dictator more time to prepare? If I already live outside, should I return to Belarus and put my body on the like, or would I be more effective donating cash that I am privileged to earn?

person_of_color 6y ago

One of my favourite cameras, the Agat 18k, is Belarussian. These guys are smart!

samunism 6y ago

This is a harbinger for the western world too. Can any of us in the tech industry claim that silicon valley "authoritarianism" is not an issue? Working in tech now is fraught with peril, especially if one says anything outside of the overton window. I wouldn't be surprised if this starts happening in America as well in a few years.

pas 6y ago
The issue is that currently public discourse happens on semi-public spaces. (Eg. Facebook, reddit, YouTube.) All slightly different mediums, different rules, different communities (and meta-communities, and other aggregates and hierarchies and moderation/reporting systems). And the owners of these places want to extract profit from these places, they on one hand like the money, but they reasonably must police their places. Virtually millions of people can shout at the same time at the same place. Bullying, doxxing, harassment, SWATing, spam, scam, porn, gore, really fucked up ideologies, racism/xenophobia, and whatnot are cropping up. And it's clear that people are not really interested in going back to the typewriter and mailing letters to various publications. This large scale "politicing" is likely truly unprecedented. Bored and angry people can comment, like, upvote, downvote whatever anyone wrote/posted/created/asked. > Working in tech now is fraught with peril, especially if one says anything outside of the overton window. That's "fake news" - because the base rate is low, even if there are clear examples of it. (Eg Google firing Damore who pointed out that Google's diversity group/effort is very inefficient because it's unscientific, so inadvertently exposed it as a simple PR effort.)

Nginx487 6y ago

Fleeing from Belarus to Russia, from one lifetime president and authoritarian regime to another is a strange choice.

ibobev 6y ago

It is a very smart turn of the Polish side to support the political crysis is Belarus. When the country is turned into chaos it will be beneficial for the Polish economy when many Belarussian workers go to Poland. "IT haven takes authoritarian turn". Really? Isn't the so called IT haven exists under the exactly same government? What changed? What changed is the situation of foreign instigated chaos intended to weaken a key Russian ally with the additional benefit that when many Belarussian workers leave the country they will serv someone's else economy. The competition of Belarussian IT industry will also be eliminated.