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Digital pregnancy tests have an internal paper test
- uniqueid 6y agoOuch, that's pathetic. I've noticed companies that build medical devices have followed the lead of big tech companies like Apple. First it was devices with non-replaceable batteries, and now: subscription services. It's crummy.
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoYup, or adding bluetooth and connect with an app just because they can then charge a premium. I mean it's a toothbrush, come on.
- askvictor 6y agoWhile the waste is lamentable, perhaps it's also worth considering this as a UI/UX problem. How many people mis-read the paper test vs how much extra error % does the circuitry introduce?
- blendergeek 6y agoWould it be possible to make a paper one have words (such as pregnant/not pregnant) instead of one/two lines?
- philips 6y agoHave an app that uses the phone camera?
- blendergeek 6y agoNo. I'm talking about designing a paper pregnancy test that has words instead of lines.
- maccard 6y agoThat's not an awful idea, and a step forward from the idea of replaceable strips on a reader that the thread suggests!
- pedrow 6y agoI suspect it is difficult to get the 'raw' output from a cell-phone camera so you are dependent on the phone's processing (contrast enhancement etc), which might vary between models. Not impossible (e.g. having control lines) but needs thinking about.
- refurb 6y agoNot for this test. It's a lateral flow assay [1]. The urine is absorbed by the strip and then moves along with capillary action. If there is hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) in the urine, then the it binds to linked-antibodies (often linked to gold atoms) and drags them along, then those antibodies bind to the actual assay and a control assay (antibodies to the antibodies). I supposed you could make the line words, but they'd be pretty small. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_flow_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_flow_test
- Johnny555 6y agoI don't think that would solve the problem. "The word "not" is faintly showing, what does that mean?" It it was trivial to show a single clear indicator word, they could just show a clear indicator line, then there'd be no ambiguity. It's not the second line that confuses people, it's figuring out if that line is really visible enough.
- srtjstjsj 6y agoBut when the line is faint you get false negative from the machine.
- Johnny555 6y agoDo you? The entire point of the machine is to read the test to the limits of what the test strip can detect. It the digital reader can't detect the line, that should be a limitation of the test strip, not the automation. And it should do better than an untrained human.
- guruz 6y agoThis is explained in the tweet here: https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1301799439921590273 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/130179943992159027...
- srtjstjsj 6y agoWhere does it say how much extra error % does the circuitry introduce?
- Benjamin_Dobell 6y agoI'm not too sure why this is supposed to be surprising. When chemical reactions are involved, you often need chemicals. A significant portion of digital meters used for servicing swimming pools require servicing/replacement of strips/chemicals (reagents) within the device. Yes, there are also digital meters that work without chemicals per se, and have special electrodes that measure electric current. However, this approach quite simply doesn't work for all chemical reactions.
- Thorrez 6y agoIt's surprising because the electronics are essentially useless. Most people would expect the electronic version would have some type of advantage, because those electronics cost extra money to produce.
- mrtksn 6y agoThe advantage is the UX. On a regular stripe test you are responsible to conduct the experiment and interpret the outcome which can be intimidating. "Is there a line? I think I see a line? But it's fainter from the last time? What does it mean?" This is replaced by an algorithm that's written by people who know what are they doing to save you from analysing a chemical reaction and have a straight answer. edit: Just Google for "Is this pregnancy test positive" to see how many people are having trouble interpreting the results. Here is an example from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TFABLinePorn/comments/4pxghm/conflicting_pregnancy_test_one_positive_faint/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TFABLinePorn/comments/4pxghm/confli... Ironically, on this example the commenters claim that the inaccurate one is the digital one and the tester confirms. Anyway, the point stands: It is hard to interpret the outcome of chemical reactions.
- watwut 6y agoThis is first time I hear about pregnancy test being "intimidating". The only pregnancy test intimidating reference I knew about so far was "omg, shit I am pregnant shit".
- philips 6y agoI wonder if there is an opportunity to make a mobile app that interpreted the results from these tests in a similar manner and sell tests that are app enabled.
- 082349872349872 6y agoMy 3rd world country has pregnancy tests[1] available in almost all vending machines, but unfortunately they're the paper kind. Obviously we managed to get them evenly distributed, but utterly failed to provide the future. [1] For the convenience of both those hoping for positive results and those hoping for negative. I'm guessing there are more of the latter than the former, because they're invariably located in the slot next to the condoms.
- bpiche 6y agoThe street finds its own use for things eh
- 082349872349872 6y agoTIL Tally Isham doesn't have an insta but image search does turn up some of her titles. Thoughts from a not-as-fictional Rikki: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24349454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24349454
- srtjstjsj 6y agoWhy unfortunate? Paper are the good kind. No reason to assume that being near condoms means people don't want to be pregnant.
- IndrekR 6y agoThis kind of makes sense in a strange way. Inexpensive red LED's have relatively narrow spectral line half width (~20nm) and you can set detection thresholds against measured values. This is much better than "I think I saw something in a dimly lit bathroom". This means that in the readout part (UI) it is hard to get wrong results ("Is it one or two?"). Then again it is a wasteful and overpriced product that can leave wrong impression of superiority to the customer.
- jsymolon 6y ago> it is a wasteful On one hand, what a marvelous thing it is. On the other, what a waste, single use of silicon, battery and LCD that'll go straight to the landfill.
- azinman2 6y agoAnd a lithium battery nevertheless! So so wasteful and toxic! I can’t believe this is legal.
- srtjstjsj 6y agoWhy do you have to do it in a dimly lit bathroom?
- tobinfricke 6y agoPeople often have the idea that a digital readout implies a more precise measurement. I see this often in scales, thermometers, etc.
- Doxin 6y agoTo be fair, it's true for scales and thermometers.
- sratner 6y agoIt is often more precise, not necessarily more accurate. People often don't distinguish between the two.
- throwaway744678 6y agoNot a native speaker; I think I understand your point, though I fail to see a distinction between these two words: if the output is a number to the nth decimal, but it is not "accurate" (ie. the numbers are actually wrong), can it still be said to be "precise" ?
- 74ls00 6y agoPrecise means lots of fine-grained information; accurate means close to the truth. If the weather is 20° exactly and one thermometer reads 20.2° and another 20.562° the first can be described as more accurate and the latter as more precise. Hence the expression, “precisely wrong”.
- JorgeGT 6y agoYes, here's the typical example used to explain the difference between the two: https://blog.forecast.it/hs-fs/hubfs/accuracy-precision.jpg https://blog.forecast.it/hs-fs/hubfs/accuracy-precision.jpg In terms of probability density: https://www.allsensors.com/images/engineering/figure-1.png https://www.allsensors.com/images/engineering/figure-1.png
- tobinfricke 6y agoI like the part where it uses the conductivity of pee as the power switch. https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1301709777383292928/photo/1 https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1301709777383292928/photo/1
- tobinfricke 6y agoI also like the part that it has as much CPU power as the original IBM PC but it's literally something you pee on and then throw away!
- runbyfruity 6y agoAnd then it sits in a landfill for eternity! Imagine how many millions of tiny computers (and batteries - oof) are just sitting in dumps right now. That's the most egregious part for me: this test is exactly the same as the analog one, but it generates eWaste.
- titzer 6y agoIf there is an engineer afterlife, then we got some serious hell to pay for how wasteful we are collectively.
- pedrow 6y agoI wonder if it would be possible to also use it as the electrolyte in a cell, and generate enough current to run the test
- blablablub 6y agoThis is basically the definition of plastic waste.
- 1001101 6y agoAnd are people supposed to tear it down and dispose of the battery separately? (the battery is hazardous and has markings indicating it is not to be thrown away).
- runbyfruity 6y agoI guarantee literally nobody removes the batteries before throwing these out. It's a shame, really. I'm sure there are bulkier sources of eWaste, but still. Someone pees on a computer for 30 seconds and then it gets thrown away forever.
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoI'm confident that kinda thing happens at the waste processing plant. But that's making assumptions about waste disposal.
- 0latency 6y agoPregnancy/Motherhood groups are swarmed with the same "can you read this, I think I see a faint line" + photo question every single day because of the cheap tests. The strip results are NOT easy to interpret, because you may still see a faint line on the paper when not pregnant, and it's kind of an important emotional question as some couples have been trying to get pregnant for years. Your OB does you a mercy if they tell you "just buy the digital one".
- zucker42 6y agoIs the digital sensor more accurate than a human?
- freeone3000 6y agoIt's less sensitive, but more objective.
- senectus1 6y agoimagine applying that standard to Covid testing..
- Johnny555 6y agokind of an important emotional question as some couples have been trying to get pregnant for years And for some just the opposite... like 19 year old me decades ago -- ambiguous test result, and no 24 hour drugstores at the time so led to a sleepless night for both of us until we could get a second test the next day. It was negative. Would have much rather had an unambiguous POS/NEG result.
- christinamltn 6y agoIf it was ambiguous, these digital tests may have told you it was negative even when it would be positive a day or two later. You might have slept better but it wouldn’t have been based on accurate data.
- mikewarot 6y agoSo there we were... expecting a + or - on the test... we got a vertical bar | and a 2 day wait because we were in the middle of nowhere... Yellowstone. Sproutlet is 14 now. 8)
- dusted 6y agosuch a waste of resources
- jsmith99 6y agoAt the end of the teardown, after all those CPU datasheeets and speculation , my favourite was https://twitter.com/gparker/status/1301711548193230849 https://twitter.com/gparker/status/1301711548193230849 @gparker: @DelMurice @Foone Congratulations! When is the endianness reveal party?
- tobyhinloopen 6y agowhat did the guy expect to find inside? I didn’t expect otherwise. It’s just that an excited or horrified human is really bad at reading faint lines. The rule is (afaik) if you see the second line AT ALL, even if reaaally faint, it’s time to get some bed rest because you’ll need it in a few months
- superasn 6y agoReminds me of that juicer which basically just squeezed a packet and costs hundreds of dollars. Thank god for hackers exposing these shenanigans!
- Johnny555 6y agoWhat's the shenanigans? Lots of lab tests run on paper, the skill is in interpreting the result.
- superasn 6y ago> What's the shenanigans? I think pricing a 20c device for $12, to trick people that since it's digital/more expensive it is more accurate is the shenanigans.
- Johnny555 6y agoI just checked on cvs.com, a 2 pack of CVS branded "blue line" style pregnancy tests cost $13.99, a 2 pack of "clear blue" digital tests costs $17.79. You can buy bulk strips for around 50 cents each, but many people would rather pay for the convenience of peeing on a stick than peeing in a cup and them dipping a test strip in it.
- nelaboras 6y agoYou could also pee straight on the paper.
- Johnny555 6y agoMany people are squeamish enough about their own urine to not want to hold a 2" long test strip in the stream, a 6" plastic device gives more clearance. But in any case, test strips vary in how they work - some require a couple drops of urine in a specific spot on the strip, some say to dip in the urine cup until a dye mark appears. Is holding the test strip in the stream going to give the same result? I don't know.
- oe 6y agoI didn't find it mentioned here or in the Twitter thread, but the digital test also keeps track of previous results and alerts you when the scores are ramping up. Of course you could do this manually by keeping all the strips and comparing them but the device makes it a bit easier.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- leto_ii 6y agoGoing over the conversation here I'm a bit surprised by how many people seem to prefer an unnecessarily complicated and obfuscating solution to the straight-forward one. The Twitter thread clearly points out that the electronics serve strictly as an intermediary layer between the paper test and the user. They just binarize the paper reading. This in turn gives a false psychological sense of security ("it's the computer that says it, not me"), without any credible benefit. Why should I trust the people who calibrated the electronic device more than my own eyes? More generally, why are people so eager to discount the reliability of their own senses? You have eyes and a mind which are the product of billions of years of evolutionary refinement. If you're not sure whether it's || or |+, pee again on a different test and compare; or wait a few days. If the lighting in your bathroom is bad, take the test in natural light or a better lit room. My personal instinct is to rely first and foremost on my own mind and senses. It's of course important to defer to expert knowledge, but we need to use our critical thinking when deciding if something is the result of expert knowledge, or simply a marketing gimmick.
- shawnz 6y ago> Why should I trust the people who calibrated the electronic device more than my own eyes? Do you as a layperson know how sensitive the test strip is, or how blue it needs to turn to have a reasonable guarantee against false positives? It seems like the engineers of the device would have a much better perspective on those things.
- leto_ii 6y agoI know that whoever made the test, if it's a reasonably competent enterprise, made it with human capacities in mind. I don't think the threshold between positive and negative is easier to tell for an engineer than for anybody else with reasonable eyesight. I might change my mind if it would surface that the paper tests used in the electronic devices were somehow different from those available to the general public and they were tailor made for the sensors and diodes in order to make the results more reliable. I doubt this is the case, however.
- 6y ago
- stuaxo 6y agoAs pointed out on the twitter thread. If a digital test is wanted, there's no reason it couldn't accept exactly the kind of disposable strip it contains. That way the part that is going to become ewaste could at least be re-usable.
- dwighttk 6y agoSingle use is (/can be) sterile when used once. How do you make sure it is clean on second use? Do paper test strips include a wick?
- titzer 6y agoIf only there existed ways of cleaning things.
- underbluewaters 6y agoYou'd have to make sure the diodes were exactly lined up with the strip in order to avoid false negatives. That doesn't seem like a risk worth taking to save a few bucks. Maybe some sort of cartridge system could be developed.
- kortex 6y agoThat's what the control strip is for. Use that for registration. What you really care about is the relative intensities of the control and test.
- elliebike 6y agoThe issue here is that paper tests require the user to read and properly understand instructions. Teenagers in a panic can and will misread and misunderstand, as people often do when under duress. It may seem "pointless", but making the tests more user friendly and less prone to user error is super important.
- throw_away 6y agoHere is a paper showing how these tests have 99% sensitivity in the lab, but this drops to 91% when the test is read in the field by a volunteer, and down to 75% when the test is read by the subject themselves: https://archive.is/20081206110632/http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=9755740 https://archive.is/20081206110632/http://archfami.ama-assn.o... Moreover, if it's such that even a trace of a line indicates a high confidence of pregnancy, users may misinterpret a faint result as somehow meaning "kinda" pregnant.
- srtjstjsj 6y agoBut what's the accuracy of electronic tests in the field?
- lightlyused 6y agoI wouldn't say super important. I'll probably get down voted for my opinion, but if we had proper sex education for everyone and valued women's health care than this wouldn't be an issue.
- srtjstjsj 6y agoMaybe digital tests are cheaper than that.
- s1artibartfast 6y agoI don't think that sex education and accessible abortions stops people from being emotionally invested in finding out if they are pregnant. This can be a stressful question whether you want a child, don't want a child, or don't know!
- BrianOnHN 6y agoReminds me of this bic stick lighter image (yes, there's a disposable bic lighter insider) https://i.imgur.com/3eGaQZT.jpg https://i.imgur.com/3eGaQZT.jpg Edit: replace Reddit link.
- swebs 6y agoNon-reddit link: https://i.imgur.com/3eGaQZT.jpg https://i.imgur.com/3eGaQZT.jpg
- hidroto 6y agostill better then toads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_test#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_test#History
- fortran77 6y agoOr rabbits! (I'm old enough to remember people joking by saying "the rabbit died" to mean they have an unplanned pregnancy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_test
- Htmlmaster666 6y agoYou swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless bag of filth. I wager you couldn't empty a boot of excrement were the instructions on the heel. You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you. Try to edit your responses of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly. You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs. You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid, nasty and profane. You are foul and disgusting. You're a fool, an ignoramus. And what meaning do you expect your delusional self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have to us who think and reason? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake? You are a waste of flesh. You have no rhythm. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are sour and senile. You are a disease, you puerile one-handed slack-jawed , drooling meatslapper. You smarmy lagerlout git. You bloody woofter sod. Bugger off, pillock. You grotty wanking oik artless base-court apple-john. You clouted boggish foot-licking twit. You dankish clack-dish plonker. You gormless crook-pated tosser. You churlish boil-brained clotpole ponce. You cockered bum-bailey poofter. You gob-kissing gleeking flap-mouthed coxcomb. You dread-bolted fobbing beef-witted clapper-clawed flirt-gill. You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you, and I wish you would go away. I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while. I don't have enough strength left to deride your ignorant questions and half-baked comments about unimportant trivia, or any of the rest of this drivel. Duh. I mean, really, stringing together a bunch of insults among a load of babbling was hardly effective. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us "normal" people take for granted that everyone has an easy time of mastering. But we sometimes forget that there are "challenged" persons in this world who find these things more difficult. If I had known, that this was your case then I would have never read your post. It just wouldn't have been "right". Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you. You're an idiot. A moron of the highest order. You're so stupid it's a wonder and a pity you can remember to breath. Intelligent ideas bounce off your head as if it were coated with teflon. Creative thoughts take alternate transportation in order to avoid even being in the same state as you. If you had an original thought it would die of loneliness before the hour was out. 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You are a poison in need of being vomited. You are a tooth so rotten it infects the whole body. You are sperm that should have been captured in a condom and flushed down a toilet. I don't like you. I don't like anybody who has as little respect for others as you do. Go away, you swine. You're a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, and a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon. You are a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. Meaningful to no one, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts that sired you and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done. I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I wretch at the very thought of you. You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You are a weed, a fungus, and the dregs of this earth. And did I mention you smell? Monkeys look down on you. Even sheep won't have sex with you. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot. You are a waste of flesh. On a good day you're a halfwit. You are deficient in all that lends character. You have the personality of wallpaper. You are dank and filthy. You are asinine and benighted. You are the source of all unpleasantness. You spread misery and sorrow wherever you go. You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you, and I wish you would go away. I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. The only thing worse than your logic is your manners. Maybe later in life, after you have learned to read, write, study, spell, and count, you will have more success. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us "normal" people take for granted that everyone has an easy time of mastering. It just wouldn't have been "right". Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you. You are hypocritical, greedy, violent, malevolent, vengeful, cowardly, deadly, mendacious, meretricious, loathsome, despicable, belligerent, opportunistic, barratrous, contemptible, criminal, fascistic, bigoted, racist, sexist, avaricious, tasteless, idiotic, brain-damaged, imbecilic, insane, arrogant, deceitful, demented, lame, self-righteous, byzantine, conspiratorial, satanic, fraudulent, libellous, bilious, splenetic, spastic, ignorant, clueless, illegitimate, harmful, destructive, dumb, evasive, double-talking, devious, revisionist, narrow, manipulative, paternalistic, fundamentalist, dogmatic, idolatrous, unethical, cultic, diseased, suppressive, controlling, restrictive, malignant, deceptive, dim, crazy, weird, dystrophic, stifling, uncaring, plantigrade, grim, unsympathetic, jargon-spouting, censorious, secretive, aggressive, mind-numbing, abrasive, poisonous, flagrant, self-destructive, abusive, and socially-retarded. Shut up and go away lest you achieve the physical retribution your behaviour merits. Thank you for your kind attention to and expected cooperation in this matter.
- Hitton 6y agoIdea: Make image recognition app that does the same. Market it as environmentally friendly solution. You are welcome.
- csilverman 6y agoI saw the beginnings of this on Twitter last night; not surprised it wound up here. If anyone here isn’t already following @foone, I highly recommend it. Their teardowns are fascinating. One of the more interesting comments: “This thing [the chip in the device] is probably faster at number crunching and basic I/O than the CPU used in the original IBM PC, and this one is in something you pee on and throw away.” (Unfortunately, “...there's no reprogramming this chip to run other programs. We can't run Doom on this pregnancy tester, I'm sorry.”)
- dec0dedab0de 6y agoSo It's basically like the blood sugar testers diabetics use, except they want you to buy a new reader with every strip. There is now an opportunity for one of the manufacturers of pregnancy tests to make a reusable reader. The add could be like "We know you're going to test more than once, we won't force you to buy a reader every time." or "instead of asking the strangers if they see a line (cut to forum posts of tests) , let {product name} be your second opinion" Or even "Don't wait until you've missing your period, test every week for an entire year for less than the cost of 3 of the competitors digital tests"
- ashtonkem 6y agoPregnancy tests and blood sugar tests have pretty different usage patterns. Blood sugar tests will (should) be used every day by diabetics; the cost per test matters a lot. Women on the other hand go through pregnancy tests much less frequently, and care much more about accuracy than cost. The impact of a false positive or negative from a pregnancy test can be massive, and even the perception of increased accuracy is good marketing.
- srtjstjsj 6y agoThat's a bad idea. Jamming paper into the machine is more error prone than not using the machine.
- timerol 6y ago"Pregnancy tests are 99% accurate in the lab, 75% accurate in the wild due to misreads- mistakes which are highly dependent on education and socioeconomic status. No, it is not stupid or wasteful to use a hardware interface to help women with this." https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1301786032136835072 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/130178603213683507...
- nathias 6y agopeople can't believe others would use this, and go on using their GUIs instead of terminals
- moonbug 6y agovery much enjoying a bunch of men argue about how easy their pregnancy tests were.