28 ms·

30-35 percent of Covid-19-positive Big Ten athletes had myocarditis

193 points by pella 6y ago

eloff 6y ago
This is basically my biggest objection to the young people (it's weird to write that as a young person) not taking Covid19 precautions. Yeah it won't likely kill you (your morning commute is higher risk) but it has a high probability of leaving you with permanent damage that could knock an unknown amount of time off your life. This is even true for the flu by the way, just likely much less so. It's a nebulous risk that's hard to quantify, so people tend to not even consider it. It's still a risk though, and it could even be a very large risk, we really just don't know.
- umanwizard 6y ago
  Nowhere does the article linked claim that the heart inflammation described is serious permanent damage. I’m not a doctor, and don’t know one way or the other. Is there a reason you’re claiming this represents “permanent damage”?
  - 0xEFF 6y ago
    "Severe myocarditis can permanently damage your heart muscle, possibly causing: Heart failure. Heart attack or stroke. Rapid or abnormal heart rhythms (arrhythmias). Sudden cardiac death." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...
    - just-juan-post 6y ago
      > can
    - umanwizard 6y ago
      Sure, but the linked post didn’t say the inflammation was “severe”.
      - biolurker1 6y ago
        You understand how much you wanting it not to be true guides your argument?
        creaghpatr 6y ago
        and vice versa
        umanwizard 6y ago
        Huh? That’s completely out of left field. Attacking my motives rather than actually responding to the point.
        dang 6y ago
        No personal attacks on HN, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        biolurker1 6y ago
        I'm sure the guidelines forbid trolling too and that's what the user is doing
        dang 6y ago
        They do, but it doesn't work to point at the person when you've broken the rules yourself. Otherwise we'd end up in a downward spiral, because it always feels like the other person started it and did worse and you were just reacting. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=downward%20spiral%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... We do try to do both-sides moderation when we can, because it makes the medicine easier for everybody, but we don't see everything that gets posted here. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=likeliest%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Re trolling: people are too quick to invoke the t-word when other users are propagating views that seem wrong, especially when they seem perversely wrong. We seem generally to be able to handle disagreement that's within (say) a standard deviation from our own views, but outside that, it's hard to assume good faith anymore—it feels obvious that the other person must be manipulating or lying somehow. That's not a trustworthy feeling. It probably comes from our being hard-wired for smaller groups than the ones we encounter online. In much larger groups that are spread over many places, the distribution of opinions is much wider, meaning that each of us is certain to encounter opinions that seem perversely wrong to us, just by the natural functioning of the community. In reality, the world is a much larger place than our spectrum of feels-like-normal opinion allows for, and HN is a large enough sample of the world that this mismatch comes up here a lot. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=standard%20deviation%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098
- turing_complete 6y ago
  There is no evidence that there is a "high probability of leaving you with permanent damage". What you are saying is all based on some anecdotes. Take Covid seriously, assess your risk based on actual data. Don't spread misinformation.
  - biolurker1 6y ago
    This thread does indeed contain actual data
    - umanwizard 6y ago
      Can you cite the data on the probability of it causing serious permanent damage? I’m not seeing it anywhere in the thread.
      - biolurker1 6y ago
        It is causing myocarditis and myocarditis is causing permanent damage to some %that you can Google.
        umanwizard 6y ago
        How can I determine that percentage without knowing (1) what fraction of people get myocarditis or (2) how serious it is in those cases?
        biolurker1 6y ago
        again, there are available studies with results freely available to the public. dyor instead of just arguing on internet forums
  - eloff 6y ago
    Actually there is some data surfacing and so far it's indicating as much as 1/3 of people have lingering effects - even of those who did not develop symptoms - and some percentage of those will be permanent. You are actually the one spreading misinformation here by saying there is no data. We all wish there was higher quality data, but it's definitely not no data.
- hwillis 6y ago
  I'm 28 and got it mid-March (from a roommate, I was already isolating at home but just sharing an apartment was enough). Last week I tested 60% of the expected level of gas diffusion at the Boston COVID pulmunology clinic. That's about it. There's no treatment, there's no medication, and if it were to get worse the only option is a lung transplant. I have to learn to breathe more deeply and my heart will wear out significantly faster due to the higher arterial pressure and faster pulse. I've got to be careful exercizing; 50% diffusion is considered the point where a light jog drives you into hypoxia. My o2 sensor says I drop down to the low 80s if I miss a breath at the wrong time. That's just going to be the new normal for the next 50 years, should I be so lucky. Honestly the oxygen is the least inconvenient thing. Each breath gets me a bit more air than a normal person would get on top of Mt Ranier, but I've already pretty much adjusted to that. Low oxygen is hard to notice and adjusted for quickly, but nobody talks about the CO2. CO2 is being locked into my blood by the same scars/thickening that are keeping oxygen out. Many people can relate to extended altitude sickness (and how much it sucks) but very very few people my age have elevated CO2 like this. The closest you can get is sprinting until you're sucking air, and you can't catch your breath even if you take the biggest breath you can, until your ribs creak. I have been living in that moment for six months. I highly recommend against it. At the best times I'm anxious and forgetful; at the worst I'm just lying down for hours trying to breathe as quickly and deeply as possible with an intense sensation of being on the verge of passing out. It sucks, its cutting into my lifespan and it's very seriously affecting my quality of life. Long hauler effects like this seem to be in the double digit percentages, which puts the number of people around a hundred times higher than the fatalities. Seriously, it's very not fucking worth it. Even if I recover partially -which is unlikely, at this point- or even if you "only" get a less physical impact like postviral syndrome, its going to severely fuck up years of your life, FAR worse than whatever quarantine is doing to you.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    Can you use an oxygen tank to improve your O2 levels? Or is your rate of absorption a limiting factor?
    - hwillis 6y ago
- akira2501 6y ago
  > we really just don't know. We also don't know the health of these players prior to contracting COVID. I also wonder about factors like drug and alcohol abuse and possibly steroid use.
- hkai 6y ago
  This is basically the problem with jumping to conclusions based on some guy's claim, because the guy then retracts his claim but most people will still believe that covid causes myocarditis. > Key quote: "at this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in COVID-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State."
dhosek 6y ago
This is the thing that's frustrated me from the beginning. So many people assume that it's like the flu, that you get sick and maybe you die but otherwise you go back to normal and there's been abundant evidence that this simply isn't the case. And I'm just some schmuck who reads a lot. We're going to see a lot of people with long-term impacts on their health from this on top of all the dead and we still have people claiming it's no big deal.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Most of the population wants to take risks with their health for activities that they find enjoyable. Heart disease and other chronic conditions are the direct result of that. It's not surprising that people are rebelling against lockdowns based on the current culture in western countries.
  - colanderman 6y ago
    Heart disease isn't transmissible.
    - just-juan-post 6y ago
      If your aim is public safety then I suggest you start lobbying to outlaw alcohol.
    - yokaze 6y ago
      Myocarditis can be directly the result of transmissible diseases, even the common cold. That is, if you shrug off the cold and think your tougher than that, a myocarditis can a complication of it. Wonder how many sportspeople continued to train while having initial symptoms... https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...
      - creaghpatr 6y ago
        Most athletes undergo a physical at the beginning of their respective seasons, which probably includes testing for irregular heart conditions. That's how these cases get discovered.
brightball 6y ago
If this is true, it should have been in the news long before now. Why hasn’t it been? EDIT: I stand corrected. It did, just not the Big 10 specific numbers.
- eloff 6y ago
  If you're still relying on the news to inform you, you're in trouble. The media is both biased and incompetent. I'm so disillusioned with the media in general.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    This is a case where the media has very much covered this issue.
  - manishsharan 6y ago
    Yes. Instead various accredited media publications and science journals from around the world, we should all be looking to random Youtubers and Facebook posters for the real truth about Covid . /S
    - eloff 6y ago
      That's a false dichotomy. I wouldn't recommend that either. But the media treatment of covid, specifically with regard to treatment with hydroxychloroquine is biased and completely out of touch with how medical experts consider it. If you've been getting for information from the media on that topic you almost certainly have the mistaken impression that it is not effective nor in wide use. The reality might surprise you. I think they just want Trump to be wrong so badly that they're blind to the alternative. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The media in general is a shadow of what it once was. Good journalism is very nearly dead. That has serious repercussions for both society and democracy.
- mackey 6y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/08/athletes-coronavirus-heart-complications/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/08/athletes-co... This article covered it a few weeks ago. Another before that https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/07/27/coronavirus-heart/ https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/07/27/coronavirus-he...
pwned1 6y ago
Curious what the mechanism would be for causing this condition, especially if someone is asymptomatic.
- jhayward 6y ago
  SARS-Cov-2 binds to ACE receptors, which are present in cardiac muscle. The inflammation seems to be typical of how the immune system responds to this virus.
  - vanc_cefepime 6y ago
    This is not directed to the comments above. Just FYI to anyone reading this thread, this type of myocarditis isn’t only seen in coronaviruses or specifically COVID-19. Rheumatic fever/Rheumatic carditis is well documented as a cause of molecular mimicry when dealing with Group A streptococcal bacterial respiratory tract infections. Similar things are seen with Coxsackie B virus causing pericarditis amongst other things. Other viruses have been implicated in the past. Some (in other sites) seem to think this a covid only issue.
- hwillis 6y ago
  Lower respiratory infections cause myocarditis extremely often. Subclinical myocarditis may well be universal in lower respiratory (lung) infections. Its one of the larger risk factors for heart attack- a flu vaccine can reduce your risk of heart attack for the entire year by 10-20%. Thats an insane return on investment. When the lungs are infected, the heart works harder to pump blood through them. Virus-bearing blood flows directly from the lungs to the heart, and even if it isn't infected there will be a large local immune response. That means inflammation. Its nearly unavoidable once your lungs are infected. Even in young people, theres a huge difference between throat strep and lung strep (or flu)! It just isn't apparent until 20/30/40/50 years down the road.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    That explains why I had heart palpitations last time I had flu. They continued for months afterwards too at random intervals with episodes of stabbing chest pain. Got told by multiple doctors I was fine and probably over stressed.
haubey 6y ago
I'm a young guy, 25, with no underlying health conditions. Could stand to lose 10-15 pounds. Covid put me on my back for a good two weeks. Even now, five and a half months after I had it, I still get some headaches and chest pain if I do anything too strenuous. I don't really consider myself a long-hauler, based on what I've read of their symptoms I'm way better off. I know at some point reading stuff like this is fear mongering because anybody can drop dead for any reason at any time. But I still check everything every day, to make sure that I'm alright. It's hard to communicate to people who haven't had it yet that you don't know what's going to set it off.
- EarthIsHome 6y ago
  Could you describe what you mean by "too strenuous"? I don't know if I ever had it (I still get tested occasionally), but I don't ever feel 100% anymore. I don't know if this feeling is psychological or if it has something to do with COVID-19.
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    You should read the article on so called "long-haulers," by Ed Yong, a fantastic science writer: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-coronavirus-longterm-symptoms-months/612679/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-... > COVID-19 has existed for less than six months, and it is easy to forget how little we know about it. The standard view is that a minority of infected people, who are typically elderly or have preexisting health problems, end up in critical care, requiring oxygen or a ventilator. About 80 percent of infections, according to the World Health Organization, “are mild or asymptomatic,” and patients recover after two weeks, on average. Yet support groups on Slack and Facebook host thousands of people like LeClerc, who say they have been wrestling with serious COVID-19 symptoms for at least a month, if not two or three. Some call themselves “long-termers” or “long-haulers.” > I interviewed nine of them for this story, all of whom share commonalities. Most have never been admitted to an ICU or gone on a ventilator, so their cases technically count as “mild.” But their lives have nonetheless been flattened by relentless and rolling waves of symptoms that make it hard to concentrate, exercise, or perform simple physical tasks. Most are young. Most were previously fit and healthy. “It is mild relative to dying in a hospital, but this virus has ruined my life,” LeClerc said. “Even reading a book is challenging and exhausting. What small joys other people are experiencing in lockdown—yoga, bread baking—are beyond the realms of possibility for me.”
coldcode 6y ago
It would be interesting to compare those with heart issue problems with covid infection, with those who had no issues at all, to see what the difference was. I still wonder if the initial viral quantity makes a difference, factors in your immune system, prior exposure to other coronaviruses, or some other factor that explains the highly varied response.
altcognito 6y ago
For the doctors out there, how serious is this condition? What do the measurements from the paper look like? Is it possible that these athletes due to their serious training already carry around significant inflammation from training or is the observed myocarditis not even close to the same nature as something you could induce through training?
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Per my cardiologist (I'm unfortunately familiar with myocarditis through pericarditis) it is not caused by exercise. I asked him because I'd been diagnosed with peri, and that has implications down the road for myo. He told me exercise would not cause myocarditis, but if I ever developed myo, exercise could exacerbate it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
lymeeducator 6y ago
It's good that the athletic departments are getting tests like this done for their athletes to provide more information about systemic damage for symptomatic & asymptomatic infections. Most insurance plans and doctors would not pay/call for MRI imaging for hearts. More systemic testing/data is needed.
NovaS1X 6y ago
As someone who has had perimyocarditis in the past, this is quite terrifying to hear. I don't know how my heart would handle another bout if it was serious.
meddlepal 6y ago
Eduardo Rodriguez of the Red Sox had his season derailed because of covid inflicted myocarditis. There’s serious questions about whether hell ever be able to pitch again in the MLB.
x87678r 6y ago
I get occasional palpitations. In June suddenly it went 20x more frequent for 2-3 weeks, no other symptoms. Would love to know if it was the rona.
- sov 6y ago
  Same here--same for some members of my immediate family as well. Had a few days in a row where I got virtually no sleep and wasn't tired, either. Haven't had any symptoms and am in a low-risk area though.
- Herodotus38 6y ago
  Donate your blood through the American Red Cross and they automatically test everyone for antibodies since June 15th and will tell you.
- war1025 6y ago
  My heart rate was wonky for the first month or so of lockdown. It has since returned to normal and all signs point to it just being anxiety. But I also had a point in July where I felt really wiped out for two or three days, and at the same time my neighbor tested positive with Coronavirus. I thought that I should probably get tested, but no one I talked to thought my symptoms warranted getting checked, so I guess I don't know. I would also like to know, but I'm more interested in the antibody test than the "am I currently sick" test.
- ohm 6y ago
  I saw a post on slashdot about a phenomenon called "Broken Heart Syndrome" https://science.slashdot.org/story/20/07/10/2211209/broken-heart-syndrome-has-increased-during-covid-19-pandemic-small-study-suggests https://science.slashdot.org/story/20/07/10/2211209/broken-h...
  - x87678r 6y ago
    > leading to chest pain and shortness of breath. Thanks, I didn't get these symptoms luckily.
jdminhbg 6y ago
A Twitter thread here gives more context: https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1301591392473538560 https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1301591392473538560 > Wayne Sebastianelli was clear that B10 hasn't cardiac MRI'd every athlete who tested positive for Covid. However, among ones that were cardiac MRI'd (don't know number or why they were MRI'd) about 1/3 "had the level of inflammation that was determined to be myocarditis." ... > One more thing: it wasn’t a “study.” It appears he got this info somewhat informally from other athletic doctors from other schools, which may explain the rough numbers. Among other things. So I'd recommend at least changing the title, as it's not actually the case (that we know of) that 1/3 of covid-positive players have myocarditis, just 1/3 of covid-positive players who were MRIed. Update: It doesn't seem like any other schools are actually seeing this according to reports here: https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multiple-b1g-schools-say-were-not-experiencing-high-levels-of-myocarditis-among-student-athletes/ https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multip...
- jdminhbg 6y ago
  In a further update, Sebastianelli (via Penn State) has walked the entire thing back: https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608 https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608
  - mrfusion 6y ago
    But the fear has been stoked. No one will see the retraction.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - disown 6y ago
    From 30-35% in all big ten athletes with covid to... "At this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in covid-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State." So walked back from the entire conference to a single university which didn't have a single case. What is going on?
rmason 6y ago
Numerous other Big10 schools are saying they're not seeing this in their athletes that have tested positive for COVID-19. https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multiple-b1g-schools-say-were-not-experiencing-high-levels-of-myocarditis-among-student-athletes/ https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multip...
- balthasar 6y ago
  We have investigated ourselves and found that we have done nothing wrong.
- creaghpatr 6y ago
  NFL now saying 0 of the 171 players that had COVID have been diagnosed with myocarditis. https://twitter.com/JohnKryk/status/1299400099332841473 https://twitter.com/JohnKryk/status/1299400099332841473
  - slg 6y ago
    Are they actually looking for it or do they just assume no one has it because no one has reported a problem yet? There has been at least one confirmed case among MLB players[1]. It is also interesting to note that this cites a 10-20% number for the occurance of myocarditis among people with COVID-19. [1] - https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29579222/boston-red-sox-pitcher-eduardo-rodriguez-done-season-due-heart-issue https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29579222/boston-red-sox-...
    - jeremyjh 6y ago
      Your question is answered in the link GP posted. All were tested for it.
      - slg 6y ago
        My bad. I read the link about the Big 10 which didn't mention anything about who was tested and didn't click through on the response about the NFL since it was a Twitter link and I assumed it wouldn't have any additional info.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
I had myocarditis in my twenties. It was completely debilitating. Even walking up the stairs was a struggle. It took more than a year before I felt normal again. I came quite close to loosing my job over it. I had been fit and healthy before.
balthasar 6y ago
I hope the athletes sue the school for a hefty fee.
CyanLite2 6y ago
Easy resolution here--give all athletes an echocardiogram when they first walk in the door as a freshman (to also check for structural/enlarged defects). And then give them one to compare it against for the ones that test positive for Covid-19. If you have myocarditis, then you get a medical redshirt.
avsteele 6y ago
This is 100% not correct. It is just made up, fake. https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608 https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608
gizmo 6y ago
This is obvious nonsense, and the statement has been retracted. Key quote: "at this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in COVID-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State." https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608 https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608
mrfusion 6y ago
This says the opposite https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multiple-b1g-schools-say-were-not-experiencing-high-levels-of-myocarditis-among-student-athletes/ https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multip...
njarboe 6y ago
Now this article has posted a correction but has not changed the headline: "CORRECTION: Penn State Health later clarified that the 30-35% figure pertaining to COVID-19-positive Big Ten athletes verbally shared with Dr. Wayne Sebastianelli by a colleague was actually published at the lower rate of 15%. He was unaware of that when he made his comments at the State College school board meeting, and when he confirmed his comments to the Centre Daily Times."

193 points by pella 6y ago

This is basically my biggest objection to the young people (it's weird to write that as a young person) not taking Covid19 precautions. Yeah it won't likely kill you (your morning commute is higher risk) but it has a high probability of leaving you with permanent damage that could knock an unknown amount of time off your life. This is even true for the flu by the way, just likely much less so. It's a nebulous risk that's hard to quantify, so people tend to not even consider it. It's still a risk though, and it could even be a very large risk, we really just don't know.

umanwizard 6y ago
Nowhere does the article linked claim that the heart inflammation described is serious permanent damage. I’m not a doctor, and don’t know one way or the other. Is there a reason you’re claiming this represents “permanent damage”?
- 0xEFF 6y ago
  "Severe myocarditis can permanently damage your heart muscle, possibly causing: Heart failure. Heart attack or stroke. Rapid or abnormal heart rhythms (arrhythmias). Sudden cardiac death." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...
  - just-juan-post 6y ago
    > can
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    Sure, but the linked post didn’t say the inflammation was “severe”.
    - biolurker1 6y ago
      You understand how much you wanting it not to be true guides your argument?
      - creaghpatr 6y ago
        and vice versa
      - umanwizard 6y ago
        Huh? That’s completely out of left field. Attacking my motives rather than actually responding to the point.
      - dang 6y ago
        No personal attacks on HN, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        biolurker1 6y ago
        I'm sure the guidelines forbid trolling too and that's what the user is doing
        dang 6y ago
        They do, but it doesn't work to point at the person when you've broken the rules yourself. Otherwise we'd end up in a downward spiral, because it always feels like the other person started it and did worse and you were just reacting. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=downward%20spiral%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... We do try to do both-sides moderation when we can, because it makes the medicine easier for everybody, but we don't see everything that gets posted here. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=likeliest%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Re trolling: people are too quick to invoke the t-word when other users are propagating views that seem wrong, especially when they seem perversely wrong. We seem generally to be able to handle disagreement that's within (say) a standard deviation from our own views, but outside that, it's hard to assume good faith anymore—it feels obvious that the other person must be manipulating or lying somehow. That's not a trustworthy feeling. It probably comes from our being hard-wired for smaller groups than the ones we encounter online. In much larger groups that are spread over many places, the distribution of opinions is much wider, meaning that each of us is certain to encounter opinions that seem perversely wrong to us, just by the natural functioning of the community. In reality, the world is a much larger place than our spectrum of feels-like-normal opinion allows for, and HN is a large enough sample of the world that this mismatch comes up here a lot. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=standard%20deviation%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098
turing_complete 6y ago
There is no evidence that there is a "high probability of leaving you with permanent damage". What you are saying is all based on some anecdotes. Take Covid seriously, assess your risk based on actual data. Don't spread misinformation.
- biolurker1 6y ago
  This thread does indeed contain actual data
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    Can you cite the data on the probability of it causing serious permanent damage? I’m not seeing it anywhere in the thread.
    - biolurker1 6y ago
      It is causing myocarditis and myocarditis is causing permanent damage to some %that you can Google.
      - umanwizard 6y ago
        How can I determine that percentage without knowing (1) what fraction of people get myocarditis or (2) how serious it is in those cases?
        biolurker1 6y ago
        again, there are available studies with results freely available to the public. dyor instead of just arguing on internet forums
- eloff 6y ago
  Actually there is some data surfacing and so far it's indicating as much as 1/3 of people have lingering effects - even of those who did not develop symptoms - and some percentage of those will be permanent. You are actually the one spreading misinformation here by saying there is no data. We all wish there was higher quality data, but it's definitely not no data.
hwillis 6y ago
I'm 28 and got it mid-March (from a roommate, I was already isolating at home but just sharing an apartment was enough). Last week I tested 60% of the expected level of gas diffusion at the Boston COVID pulmunology clinic. That's about it. There's no treatment, there's no medication, and if it were to get worse the only option is a lung transplant. I have to learn to breathe more deeply and my heart will wear out significantly faster due to the higher arterial pressure and faster pulse. I've got to be careful exercizing; 50% diffusion is considered the point where a light jog drives you into hypoxia. My o2 sensor says I drop down to the low 80s if I miss a breath at the wrong time. That's just going to be the new normal for the next 50 years, should I be so lucky. Honestly the oxygen is the least inconvenient thing. Each breath gets me a bit more air than a normal person would get on top of Mt Ranier, but I've already pretty much adjusted to that. Low oxygen is hard to notice and adjusted for quickly, but nobody talks about the CO2. CO2 is being locked into my blood by the same scars/thickening that are keeping oxygen out. Many people can relate to extended altitude sickness (and how much it sucks) but very very few people my age have elevated CO2 like this. The closest you can get is sprinting until you're sucking air, and you can't catch your breath even if you take the biggest breath you can, until your ribs creak. I have been living in that moment for six months. I highly recommend against it. At the best times I'm anxious and forgetful; at the worst I'm just lying down for hours trying to breathe as quickly and deeply as possible with an intense sensation of being on the verge of passing out. It sucks, its cutting into my lifespan and it's very seriously affecting my quality of life. Long hauler effects like this seem to be in the double digit percentages, which puts the number of people around a hundred times higher than the fatalities. Seriously, it's very not fucking worth it. Even if I recover partially -which is unlikely, at this point- or even if you "only" get a less physical impact like postviral syndrome, its going to severely fuck up years of your life, FAR worse than whatever quarantine is doing to you.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  Can you use an oxygen tank to improve your O2 levels? Or is your rate of absorption a limiting factor?
  - hwillis 6y ago
akira2501 6y ago
> we really just don't know. We also don't know the health of these players prior to contracting COVID. I also wonder about factors like drug and alcohol abuse and possibly steroid use.
hkai 6y ago
This is basically the problem with jumping to conclusions based on some guy's claim, because the guy then retracts his claim but most people will still believe that covid causes myocarditis. > Key quote: "at this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in COVID-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State."

dhosek 6y ago

This is the thing that's frustrated me from the beginning. So many people assume that it's like the flu, that you get sick and maybe you die but otherwise you go back to normal and there's been abundant evidence that this simply isn't the case. And I'm just some schmuck who reads a lot. We're going to see a lot of people with long-term impacts on their health from this on top of all the dead and we still have people claiming it's no big deal.

ketamine__ 6y ago
Most of the population wants to take risks with their health for activities that they find enjoyable. Heart disease and other chronic conditions are the direct result of that. It's not surprising that people are rebelling against lockdowns based on the current culture in western countries.
- colanderman 6y ago
  Heart disease isn't transmissible.
  - just-juan-post 6y ago
    If your aim is public safety then I suggest you start lobbying to outlaw alcohol.
  - yokaze 6y ago
    Myocarditis can be directly the result of transmissible diseases, even the common cold. That is, if you shrug off the cold and think your tougher than that, a myocarditis can a complication of it. Wonder how many sportspeople continued to train while having initial symptoms... https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...
    - creaghpatr 6y ago
      Most athletes undergo a physical at the beginning of their respective seasons, which probably includes testing for irregular heart conditions. That's how these cases get discovered.

brightball 6y ago

If this is true, it should have been in the news long before now. Why hasn’t it been? EDIT: I stand corrected. It did, just not the Big 10 specific numbers.

eloff 6y ago
If you're still relying on the news to inform you, you're in trouble. The media is both biased and incompetent. I'm so disillusioned with the media in general.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  This is a case where the media has very much covered this issue.
- manishsharan 6y ago
  Yes. Instead various accredited media publications and science journals from around the world, we should all be looking to random Youtubers and Facebook posters for the real truth about Covid . /S
  - eloff 6y ago
    That's a false dichotomy. I wouldn't recommend that either. But the media treatment of covid, specifically with regard to treatment with hydroxychloroquine is biased and completely out of touch with how medical experts consider it. If you've been getting for information from the media on that topic you almost certainly have the mistaken impression that it is not effective nor in wide use. The reality might surprise you. I think they just want Trump to be wrong so badly that they're blind to the alternative. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The media in general is a shadow of what it once was. Good journalism is very nearly dead. That has serious repercussions for both society and democracy.
mackey 6y ago
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/08/athletes-coronavirus-heart-complications/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/08/athletes-co... This article covered it a few weeks ago. Another before that https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/07/27/coronavirus-heart/ https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/07/27/coronavirus-he...

pwned1 6y ago

Curious what the mechanism would be for causing this condition, especially if someone is asymptomatic.

jhayward 6y ago
SARS-Cov-2 binds to ACE receptors, which are present in cardiac muscle. The inflammation seems to be typical of how the immune system responds to this virus.
- vanc_cefepime 6y ago
  This is not directed to the comments above. Just FYI to anyone reading this thread, this type of myocarditis isn’t only seen in coronaviruses or specifically COVID-19. Rheumatic fever/Rheumatic carditis is well documented as a cause of molecular mimicry when dealing with Group A streptococcal bacterial respiratory tract infections. Similar things are seen with Coxsackie B virus causing pericarditis amongst other things. Other viruses have been implicated in the past. Some (in other sites) seem to think this a covid only issue.
hwillis 6y ago
Lower respiratory infections cause myocarditis extremely often. Subclinical myocarditis may well be universal in lower respiratory (lung) infections. Its one of the larger risk factors for heart attack- a flu vaccine can reduce your risk of heart attack for the entire year by 10-20%. Thats an insane return on investment. When the lungs are infected, the heart works harder to pump blood through them. Virus-bearing blood flows directly from the lungs to the heart, and even if it isn't infected there will be a large local immune response. That means inflammation. Its nearly unavoidable once your lungs are infected. Even in young people, theres a huge difference between throat strep and lung strep (or flu)! It just isn't apparent until 20/30/40/50 years down the road.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  That explains why I had heart palpitations last time I had flu. They continued for months afterwards too at random intervals with episodes of stabbing chest pain. Got told by multiple doctors I was fine and probably over stressed.

haubey 6y ago

I'm a young guy, 25, with no underlying health conditions. Could stand to lose 10-15 pounds. Covid put me on my back for a good two weeks. Even now, five and a half months after I had it, I still get some headaches and chest pain if I do anything too strenuous. I don't really consider myself a long-hauler, based on what I've read of their symptoms I'm way better off. I know at some point reading stuff like this is fear mongering because anybody can drop dead for any reason at any time. But I still check everything every day, to make sure that I'm alright. It's hard to communicate to people who haven't had it yet that you don't know what's going to set it off.

EarthIsHome 6y ago
Could you describe what you mean by "too strenuous"? I don't know if I ever had it (I still get tested occasionally), but I don't ever feel 100% anymore. I don't know if this feeling is psychological or if it has something to do with COVID-19.
- faitswulff 6y ago
  You should read the article on so called "long-haulers," by Ed Yong, a fantastic science writer: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-coronavirus-longterm-symptoms-months/612679/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-... > COVID-19 has existed for less than six months, and it is easy to forget how little we know about it. The standard view is that a minority of infected people, who are typically elderly or have preexisting health problems, end up in critical care, requiring oxygen or a ventilator. About 80 percent of infections, according to the World Health Organization, “are mild or asymptomatic,” and patients recover after two weeks, on average. Yet support groups on Slack and Facebook host thousands of people like LeClerc, who say they have been wrestling with serious COVID-19 symptoms for at least a month, if not two or three. Some call themselves “long-termers” or “long-haulers.” > I interviewed nine of them for this story, all of whom share commonalities. Most have never been admitted to an ICU or gone on a ventilator, so their cases technically count as “mild.” But their lives have nonetheless been flattened by relentless and rolling waves of symptoms that make it hard to concentrate, exercise, or perform simple physical tasks. Most are young. Most were previously fit and healthy. “It is mild relative to dying in a hospital, but this virus has ruined my life,” LeClerc said. “Even reading a book is challenging and exhausting. What small joys other people are experiencing in lockdown—yoga, bread baking—are beyond the realms of possibility for me.”

coldcode 6y ago

It would be interesting to compare those with heart issue problems with covid infection, with those who had no issues at all, to see what the difference was. I still wonder if the initial viral quantity makes a difference, factors in your immune system, prior exposure to other coronaviruses, or some other factor that explains the highly varied response.

altcognito 6y ago

For the doctors out there, how serious is this condition? What do the measurements from the paper look like? Is it possible that these athletes due to their serious training already carry around significant inflammation from training or is the observed myocarditis not even close to the same nature as something you could induce through training?

ineedasername 6y ago
Per my cardiologist (I'm unfortunately familiar with myocarditis through pericarditis) it is not caused by exercise. I asked him because I'd been diagnosed with peri, and that has implications down the road for myo. He told me exercise would not cause myocarditis, but if I ever developed myo, exercise could exacerbate it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

lymeeducator 6y ago

It's good that the athletic departments are getting tests like this done for their athletes to provide more information about systemic damage for symptomatic & asymptomatic infections. Most insurance plans and doctors would not pay/call for MRI imaging for hearts. More systemic testing/data is needed.

NovaS1X 6y ago

As someone who has had perimyocarditis in the past, this is quite terrifying to hear. I don't know how my heart would handle another bout if it was serious.

meddlepal 6y ago

Eduardo Rodriguez of the Red Sox had his season derailed because of covid inflicted myocarditis. There’s serious questions about whether hell ever be able to pitch again in the MLB.

x87678r 6y ago

I get occasional palpitations. In June suddenly it went 20x more frequent for 2-3 weeks, no other symptoms. Would love to know if it was the rona.

sov 6y ago
Same here--same for some members of my immediate family as well. Had a few days in a row where I got virtually no sleep and wasn't tired, either. Haven't had any symptoms and am in a low-risk area though.
Herodotus38 6y ago
Donate your blood through the American Red Cross and they automatically test everyone for antibodies since June 15th and will tell you.
war1025 6y ago
My heart rate was wonky for the first month or so of lockdown. It has since returned to normal and all signs point to it just being anxiety. But I also had a point in July where I felt really wiped out for two or three days, and at the same time my neighbor tested positive with Coronavirus. I thought that I should probably get tested, but no one I talked to thought my symptoms warranted getting checked, so I guess I don't know. I would also like to know, but I'm more interested in the antibody test than the "am I currently sick" test.
ohm 6y ago
I saw a post on slashdot about a phenomenon called "Broken Heart Syndrome" https://science.slashdot.org/story/20/07/10/2211209/broken-heart-syndrome-has-increased-during-covid-19-pandemic-small-study-suggests https://science.slashdot.org/story/20/07/10/2211209/broken-h...
- x87678r 6y ago
  > leading to chest pain and shortness of breath. Thanks, I didn't get these symptoms luckily.

jdminhbg 6y ago

A Twitter thread here gives more context: https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1301591392473538560 https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1301591392473538560 > Wayne Sebastianelli was clear that B10 hasn't cardiac MRI'd every athlete who tested positive for Covid. However, among ones that were cardiac MRI'd (don't know number or why they were MRI'd) about 1/3 "had the level of inflammation that was determined to be myocarditis." ... > One more thing: it wasn’t a “study.” It appears he got this info somewhat informally from other athletic doctors from other schools, which may explain the rough numbers. Among other things. So I'd recommend at least changing the title, as it's not actually the case (that we know of) that 1/3 of covid-positive players have myocarditis, just 1/3 of covid-positive players who were MRIed. Update: It doesn't seem like any other schools are actually seeing this according to reports here: https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multiple-b1g-schools-say-were-not-experiencing-high-levels-of-myocarditis-among-student-athletes/ https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multip...

jdminhbg 6y ago
In a further update, Sebastianelli (via Penn State) has walked the entire thing back: https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608 https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608
- mrfusion 6y ago
  But the fear has been stoked. No one will see the retraction.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- disown 6y ago
  From 30-35% in all big ten athletes with covid to... "At this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in covid-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State." So walked back from the entire conference to a single university which didn't have a single case. What is going on?

rmason 6y ago

Numerous other Big10 schools are saying they're not seeing this in their athletes that have tested positive for COVID-19. https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multiple-b1g-schools-say-were-not-experiencing-high-levels-of-myocarditis-among-student-athletes/ https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multip...

balthasar 6y ago
We have investigated ourselves and found that we have done nothing wrong.
creaghpatr 6y ago
NFL now saying 0 of the 171 players that had COVID have been diagnosed with myocarditis. https://twitter.com/JohnKryk/status/1299400099332841473 https://twitter.com/JohnKryk/status/1299400099332841473
- slg 6y ago
  Are they actually looking for it or do they just assume no one has it because no one has reported a problem yet? There has been at least one confirmed case among MLB players[1]. It is also interesting to note that this cites a 10-20% number for the occurance of myocarditis among people with COVID-19. [1] - https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29579222/boston-red-sox-pitcher-eduardo-rodriguez-done-season-due-heart-issue https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29579222/boston-red-sox-...
  - jeremyjh 6y ago
    Your question is answered in the link GP posted. All were tested for it.
    - slg 6y ago
      My bad. I read the link about the Big 10 which didn't mention anything about who was tested and didn't click through on the response about the NFL since it was a Twitter link and I assumed it wouldn't have any additional info.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

I had myocarditis in my twenties. It was completely debilitating. Even walking up the stairs was a struggle. It took more than a year before I felt normal again. I came quite close to loosing my job over it. I had been fit and healthy before.

balthasar 6y ago

I hope the athletes sue the school for a hefty fee.

CyanLite2 6y ago

Easy resolution here--give all athletes an echocardiogram when they first walk in the door as a freshman (to also check for structural/enlarged defects). And then give them one to compare it against for the ones that test positive for Covid-19. If you have myocarditis, then you get a medical redshirt.

avsteele 6y ago

This is 100% not correct. It is just made up, fake. https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608 https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608

gizmo 6y ago

This is obvious nonsense, and the statement has been retracted. Key quote: "at this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in COVID-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State." https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608 https://twitter.com/BonaguraESPN/status/1301644428025540608

mrfusion 6y ago

This says the opposite https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multiple-b1g-schools-say-were-not-experiencing-high-levels-of-myocarditis-among-student-athletes/ https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multip...

njarboe 6y ago

Now this article has posted a correction but has not changed the headline: "CORRECTION: Penn State Health later clarified that the 30-35% figure pertaining to COVID-19-positive Big Ten athletes verbally shared with Dr. Wayne Sebastianelli by a colleague was actually published at the lower rate of 15%. He was unaware of that when he made his comments at the State College school board meeting, and when he confirmed his comments to the Centre Daily Times."