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> and that is what an only-fans account is: entertainment While trivially true, this is extremely reductive. People don't attend basketball games, operas, or g

by dvt 6y ago

> and that is what an only-fans account is: entertainment While trivially true, this is extremely reductive. People don't attend basketball games, operas, or go eat at Michelin star restaurants because they're lonely. People donate thousands to streamers and models because they are.

compiler-guy 6y ago
People wear Golden State Warriors gear and party at Oracle after the game because they want to be a part of the crowd. That is exactly a search for connection. The Warriors don't care about you (at least not more than anyone else).
sbarre 6y ago
> People donate thousands to streamers and models because they are [lonely]. Speaking of being reductive... Consider the possibility that people also do it because they enjoy the interaction they get out of it, however shallow and/or fleeting. The same way some people pay top dollar for a "meet and greet" with rock stars or athletes before a show or game, where you get to shake hands, take selfies and trade platitudes with famous people and then they never see you or think of you again. People donate to streams to hear the streamer thank them or call them out by name or interact with them, in some manner, for some amount of time. I'm not saying loneliness is not a factor, but it's definitely not the only factor. Like everything else to do with human interactions, it's complicated.
- dvt 6y ago
  > The same way some people pay top dollar for a "meet and greet" with rock stars or athletes before a show or game, where you get to shake hands, take selfies and trade platitudes with famous people and then they never see you or think of you again. Famous people aren't exempt from fostering parasocial relationships (see Taylor Swift's iPhone app), and Eminem famously wrote/performed "Stan" about a hypothetical overzealous fan that was in a parasocial relationship with him. I don't think I'm being reductive when I say that I think most Onlyfans subscribers -- especially those that give significant percentages of their income to models for a modicum of attention -- are "stans."
  - chii 6y ago
    > are "stans" the new name for this is SIMPs
- slg 6y ago
  >People donate to streams to hear the streamer thank them or call them out by name or interact with them, in some manner, for some amount of time. Let's get one more accusation of reductiveness in here. You are still viewing it through a lens of parasocial behavior. The token thanks isn't the only motivating factor. People don't donate to NPR just to get tote bags. They donate because they recognize the content has both value and costs. Those donations are part of recognizing that value and supporting future content creation. The same applies to streaming. Some donations are a means of thanking the streamer and providing them with both a means and a motivation to continue making content. The interactive nature of the content on a site like Twitch doesn't necessarily make it any different than non-interactive content you might find on a site like Patreon.
  - dvt 6y ago
    > People don't donate to NPR just to get tote bags. [...] The interactive nature of the content on a site like Twitch doesn't necessarily make it any different than non-interactive content you might find on a site like Patreon. Comparing someone like Pokimane or Amouranth to NPR is laughably disingenuous. There are amazing content creators out there (ranging from math, to dance, to music, to films, to politics) that don't exploit parasocial relationships with their audience. Onlyfans is, arguably, positioned to specifically exploit parasocial relationships.
    - slg 6y ago
      I'm not comparing their content. I am comparing their business models. I don't see many differences between the business model of NPR and many Twitch streamers. They give their content away for free knowing most people will never pay for it, they ask for donations knowing only a small percentage would be willing to donate, and they give donators a few token gifts as a thank you. You admit yourself there are "amazing content creators out there... that don't exploit parasocial relationships" so why are you judging everyone by the standards of the worst examples you can find? That is why you were also accused of being reductive.
      - dvt 6y ago
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  > Consider the possibility that people also do it because they enjoy the interaction they get out of it, however shallow and/or fleeting. Uh, how is this different than loneliness?
  - KineticLensman 6y ago
    In some cases the interaction may have a sexual element that isn't available from friends in real life
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    That's not remotely the same thing. I enjoy talking with other programmers, not because I'm lonely.
echelon 6y ago
I donate to musicians and artists on Patreon and programmers on Github and Ko-fi because I like what they're doing and I want them to keep doing it and getting better. Especially to those just starting in their careers. It's validation that I felt I never had and that I wished for. I hope that I'm paying it forward. It feels more tangible than donating to a giant, faceless charity. And it feels good. I might be getting music or ML models or whatever out of it, but at the core, it feels like I've made a positive contribution. It's personal, and I can imagine its direct impact in the recipient's life. In the case of art and music, there's also the touch of living vicariously through other creatives that are building a different skill set than I chose. I picked programming, and though it's too late to go back with all that I've got going on in my life, it's fun to imagine what could have been if I'd practiced sketching every day. I don't know about Twitch and OnlyFans users, but I can totally imagine donating for motivations other than loneliness. Maybe it's validation. Maybe showing off. Or maybe they're simply saying "I like what you do, please keep it up." And maybe the donors are getting a fun in-game commentary or something else as an added bonus. Don't decry it. I think these evolutions in patronage are interesting and exciting.
- xiaolingxiao 6y ago
  Unrelated but Patreon just raised 100million at 1.2B pre-money. So you're not the only one
baddox 6y ago
I don't know, I bet plenty of people are feeling lonely when they go out for some entertainment and that entertainment makes them feel less lonely. I don't see why that's such a bad thing. I recently supported the new Patreon page created by a podcast host who I have been listening to for over 10 years. He sent all his supporters a short personalized video, and watching that video gave me the feeling of an authentic personal connection. Of course there's no deception going on here, I do believe that he genuinely appreciates my (very small financial) support, but there's no expectation that we're now "actually friends" in the traditional sense (he has hundreds of supporters). But still, it's a nice feeling of personal connection, and it doesn't feel like an indictment of major social problems plaguing society (other than perhaps the obvious lockdown-associated reduction in human contact). Of course, in my example there's nothing remotely flirtatious or sexual going on, which as I understand it is common on OnlyFans. Maybe that detail makes it completely unlike my example, but it really doesn't feel that different to me.
nemothekid 6y ago
>People don't attend basketball games, operas, or go eat at Michelin star restaurants because they're lonely. I think it's reductive to consider that people are only on OnlyFans because they're lonely. People frequented strip clubs forever but I don't think everyone at a Vegas strip club is there because they are lonely.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  Maybe not everyone, but the “going to a strip club out of loneliness” thing is an age-old meme, whereas I’m unaware of any such memes about going to an NBA game out of loneliness.
  - pyuser583 6y ago
    The idea of someone going to an NBA game by themselves conjures a sad and lonely image. Strip clubs are social - you go to them with your friends. The performers are paid, of course, just like all professional entertainers. Cam sites are different. Can you imagine going to a cam site for a bachelor party? It’s not as far out as it sounds. I spent my bachelor party playing video games and watching Netflix. There’s certainly some group socializing in adult media, but it’s vastly overshadowed by paradoxical group performers.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > People frequented strip clubs forever but I don't think everyone at a Vegas strip club is there because they are lonely. Strip clubs are notorious for monetizing parasocial behavior, being places where men literally throw money to buy some attention and are scolded if they ever think of approaching the same person in other contexts that don't involve monetization of that interaction.
wnevets 6y ago
> People donate thousands to streamers and models because they are. or they view it as another form of entertainment and want to support it.
TheMagicHorsey 6y ago
Some people might not be lonely. They might just be horny, and have a fetish to see specific individuals, whose erotic content might not be available elsewhere. Your model when thinking about this is to assume everyone thinks nude people are fungible, but people used to buy specific gossip magazines at the grocery store to see SPECIFIC celebrities caught in the nude. So this is not something new.
Semaphor 6y ago
> People donate thousands to streamers and models because they are [lonely]. Or because they like the entertainment? Some guy on twitch donated over $20k, over half of it for college students to do push-ups in exchange for free food (about the other half was tips to the workers of the streaming food truck [0]). A happily married couple both watch a food streamer [1], they donated hundreds of dollar, probably over 1k. Hell, I donated around $300 between the two mentioned streams, I’m happily married as well. When people donate to FOSS authors, it’s because they want to support their work, but when they donate to streamers it’s because they are lonely? Now certainly. There are those, and probably a lot more on streams featuring scantily clad women. But reducing it to that level is just wrong. [0]: https://www.twitch.tv/grubtruckers https://www.twitch.tv/grubtruckers [1]: https://www.twitch.tv/kattskitchen https://www.twitch.tv/kattskitchen
- UweSchmidt 6y ago
  Underlying this discussion seems to be the free market/free will idea that refuses to judge decisions in a free market, because how could it? If someone spends money, they must get this objective, intangible benefit from it and who are we to judge. "You are not my mom". Yet there is an objective difference in everything we do. You've listed a few nuances yourself; somethings are better than others. The underlying psychological circumstances are also true: There is a better, healthier way to live, feel and interact and there are many pathological, harmful ways too. I would approach it like this and ask: "Would you rather play a game with a group of awesome friends (as hard as it may seem to find such a group, and even if that requires some effort and personality development to make such friends), or watch that streamer?" "Would you rather have a real relationship with another person (as discouraged by the idea you might be right now) than hang out in that chatroom and pay money to a stranger?"
  - Semaphor 6y ago
    But who is saying it has to be either or? When I have a roleplaying session (roll20 tabletop), I don’t watch streams. Some people like to watch TV by themselves sometimes. It’s simply not that different from any other type of entertainment.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> People don't attend basketball games, operas, or go eat at Michelin star restaurants because they're lonely. If you don't think a big part of the appeal of sports fandom is artificial group connection of much the same type as the kinds of artificial individual connection some people seek through the entertainment you are denigrating, I think you are quite mistaken. But, again just as for sports, just being entertained is a big part of this, too.
watwut 6y ago
I did watched tv and movies because I was lonely, because those contained people speaking and interacting. I never used OnlyFans, but from my point of view, if those using it are mostly lonely guys, then it does not sound that bad. Had they had girlfriends who would objected, I can see relationship issue there. But other then that, lonely guy using strip porn made by someone who did porn voluntary does not strikes me as massive problem.

by dvt 6y ago

compiler-guy 6y ago

People wear Golden State Warriors gear and party at Oracle after the game because they want to be a part of the crowd. That is exactly a search for connection. The Warriors don't care about you (at least not more than anyone else).

sbarre 6y ago

> People donate thousands to streamers and models because they are [lonely]. Speaking of being reductive... Consider the possibility that people also do it because they enjoy the interaction they get out of it, however shallow and/or fleeting. The same way some people pay top dollar for a "meet and greet" with rock stars or athletes before a show or game, where you get to shake hands, take selfies and trade platitudes with famous people and then they never see you or think of you again. People donate to streams to hear the streamer thank them or call them out by name or interact with them, in some manner, for some amount of time. I'm not saying loneliness is not a factor, but it's definitely not the only factor. Like everything else to do with human interactions, it's complicated.

dvt 6y ago
> The same way some people pay top dollar for a "meet and greet" with rock stars or athletes before a show or game, where you get to shake hands, take selfies and trade platitudes with famous people and then they never see you or think of you again. Famous people aren't exempt from fostering parasocial relationships (see Taylor Swift's iPhone app), and Eminem famously wrote/performed "Stan" about a hypothetical overzealous fan that was in a parasocial relationship with him. I don't think I'm being reductive when I say that I think most Onlyfans subscribers -- especially those that give significant percentages of their income to models for a modicum of attention -- are "stans."
- chii 6y ago
  > are "stans" the new name for this is SIMPs
slg 6y ago
>People donate to streams to hear the streamer thank them or call them out by name or interact with them, in some manner, for some amount of time. Let's get one more accusation of reductiveness in here. You are still viewing it through a lens of parasocial behavior. The token thanks isn't the only motivating factor. People don't donate to NPR just to get tote bags. They donate because they recognize the content has both value and costs. Those donations are part of recognizing that value and supporting future content creation. The same applies to streaming. Some donations are a means of thanking the streamer and providing them with both a means and a motivation to continue making content. The interactive nature of the content on a site like Twitch doesn't necessarily make it any different than non-interactive content you might find on a site like Patreon.
- dvt 6y ago
  > People don't donate to NPR just to get tote bags. [...] The interactive nature of the content on a site like Twitch doesn't necessarily make it any different than non-interactive content you might find on a site like Patreon. Comparing someone like Pokimane or Amouranth to NPR is laughably disingenuous. There are amazing content creators out there (ranging from math, to dance, to music, to films, to politics) that don't exploit parasocial relationships with their audience. Onlyfans is, arguably, positioned to specifically exploit parasocial relationships.
  - slg 6y ago
    I'm not comparing their content. I am comparing their business models. I don't see many differences between the business model of NPR and many Twitch streamers. They give their content away for free knowing most people will never pay for it, they ask for donations knowing only a small percentage would be willing to donate, and they give donators a few token gifts as a thank you. You admit yourself there are "amazing content creators out there... that don't exploit parasocial relationships" so why are you judging everyone by the standards of the worst examples you can find? That is why you were also accused of being reductive.
    - dvt 6y ago
throwaway894345 6y ago
> Consider the possibility that people also do it because they enjoy the interaction they get out of it, however shallow and/or fleeting. Uh, how is this different than loneliness?
- KineticLensman 6y ago
  In some cases the interaction may have a sexual element that isn't available from friends in real life
- Supermancho 6y ago
  That's not remotely the same thing. I enjoy talking with other programmers, not because I'm lonely.

echelon 6y ago

I donate to musicians and artists on Patreon and programmers on Github and Ko-fi because I like what they're doing and I want them to keep doing it and getting better. Especially to those just starting in their careers. It's validation that I felt I never had and that I wished for. I hope that I'm paying it forward. It feels more tangible than donating to a giant, faceless charity. And it feels good. I might be getting music or ML models or whatever out of it, but at the core, it feels like I've made a positive contribution. It's personal, and I can imagine its direct impact in the recipient's life. In the case of art and music, there's also the touch of living vicariously through other creatives that are building a different skill set than I chose. I picked programming, and though it's too late to go back with all that I've got going on in my life, it's fun to imagine what could have been if I'd practiced sketching every day. I don't know about Twitch and OnlyFans users, but I can totally imagine donating for motivations other than loneliness. Maybe it's validation. Maybe showing off. Or maybe they're simply saying "I like what you do, please keep it up." And maybe the donors are getting a fun in-game commentary or something else as an added bonus. Don't decry it. I think these evolutions in patronage are interesting and exciting.

xiaolingxiao 6y ago
Unrelated but Patreon just raised 100million at 1.2B pre-money. So you're not the only one

baddox 6y ago

I don't know, I bet plenty of people are feeling lonely when they go out for some entertainment and that entertainment makes them feel less lonely. I don't see why that's such a bad thing. I recently supported the new Patreon page created by a podcast host who I have been listening to for over 10 years. He sent all his supporters a short personalized video, and watching that video gave me the feeling of an authentic personal connection. Of course there's no deception going on here, I do believe that he genuinely appreciates my (very small financial) support, but there's no expectation that we're now "actually friends" in the traditional sense (he has hundreds of supporters). But still, it's a nice feeling of personal connection, and it doesn't feel like an indictment of major social problems plaguing society (other than perhaps the obvious lockdown-associated reduction in human contact). Of course, in my example there's nothing remotely flirtatious or sexual going on, which as I understand it is common on OnlyFans. Maybe that detail makes it completely unlike my example, but it really doesn't feel that different to me.

nemothekid 6y ago

>People don't attend basketball games, operas, or go eat at Michelin star restaurants because they're lonely. I think it's reductive to consider that people are only on OnlyFans because they're lonely. People frequented strip clubs forever but I don't think everyone at a Vegas strip club is there because they are lonely.

throwaway894345 6y ago
Maybe not everyone, but the “going to a strip club out of loneliness” thing is an age-old meme, whereas I’m unaware of any such memes about going to an NBA game out of loneliness.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  The idea of someone going to an NBA game by themselves conjures a sad and lonely image. Strip clubs are social - you go to them with your friends. The performers are paid, of course, just like all professional entertainers. Cam sites are different. Can you imagine going to a cam site for a bachelor party? It’s not as far out as it sounds. I spent my bachelor party playing video games and watching Netflix. There’s certainly some group socializing in adult media, but it’s vastly overshadowed by paradoxical group performers.
rumanator 6y ago
> People frequented strip clubs forever but I don't think everyone at a Vegas strip club is there because they are lonely. Strip clubs are notorious for monetizing parasocial behavior, being places where men literally throw money to buy some attention and are scolded if they ever think of approaching the same person in other contexts that don't involve monetization of that interaction.

wnevets 6y ago

> People donate thousands to streamers and models because they are. or they view it as another form of entertainment and want to support it.

TheMagicHorsey 6y ago

Some people might not be lonely. They might just be horny, and have a fetish to see specific individuals, whose erotic content might not be available elsewhere. Your model when thinking about this is to assume everyone thinks nude people are fungible, but people used to buy specific gossip magazines at the grocery store to see SPECIFIC celebrities caught in the nude. So this is not something new.

Semaphor 6y ago

> People donate thousands to streamers and models because they are [lonely]. Or because they like the entertainment? Some guy on twitch donated over $20k, over half of it for college students to do push-ups in exchange for free food (about the other half was tips to the workers of the streaming food truck [0]). A happily married couple both watch a food streamer [1], they donated hundreds of dollar, probably over 1k. Hell, I donated around $300 between the two mentioned streams, I’m happily married as well. When people donate to FOSS authors, it’s because they want to support their work, but when they donate to streamers it’s because they are lonely? Now certainly. There are those, and probably a lot more on streams featuring scantily clad women. But reducing it to that level is just wrong. [0]: https://www.twitch.tv/grubtruckers https://www.twitch.tv/grubtruckers [1]: https://www.twitch.tv/kattskitchen https://www.twitch.tv/kattskitchen

UweSchmidt 6y ago
Underlying this discussion seems to be the free market/free will idea that refuses to judge decisions in a free market, because how could it? If someone spends money, they must get this objective, intangible benefit from it and who are we to judge. "You are not my mom". Yet there is an objective difference in everything we do. You've listed a few nuances yourself; somethings are better than others. The underlying psychological circumstances are also true: There is a better, healthier way to live, feel and interact and there are many pathological, harmful ways too. I would approach it like this and ask: "Would you rather play a game with a group of awesome friends (as hard as it may seem to find such a group, and even if that requires some effort and personality development to make such friends), or watch that streamer?" "Would you rather have a real relationship with another person (as discouraged by the idea you might be right now) than hang out in that chatroom and pay money to a stranger?"
- Semaphor 6y ago
  But who is saying it has to be either or? When I have a roleplaying session (roll20 tabletop), I don’t watch streams. Some people like to watch TV by themselves sometimes. It’s simply not that different from any other type of entertainment.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> People don't attend basketball games, operas, or go eat at Michelin star restaurants because they're lonely. If you don't think a big part of the appeal of sports fandom is artificial group connection of much the same type as the kinds of artificial individual connection some people seek through the entertainment you are denigrating, I think you are quite mistaken. But, again just as for sports, just being entertained is a big part of this, too.

watwut 6y ago

I did watched tv and movies because I was lonely, because those contained people speaking and interacting. I never used OnlyFans, but from my point of view, if those using it are mostly lonely guys, then it does not sound that bad. Had they had girlfriends who would objected, I can see relationship issue there. But other then that, lonely guy using strip porn made by someone who did porn voluntary does not strikes me as massive problem.