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Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Certainly some are, but as a parent researching schools I have been really surprised by how many European

Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Certainly some are, but as a parent researching schools I have been really surprised by how many European colleges are a bit mediocre by the criteria I was evaluating. For example, Spain and Italy have some of the oldest colleges in the world. But in many ways there are four or five colleges in California that are better, four or five colleges in Texas, and across the US many many colleges than any college in those countries. I know a lot of people will disagree because there are so many ways to compare colleges. But what I look for is the strength of the top faculty (not necessarily the teachers but who you might work with as you get more advanced), the facilities, the quality of the research that comes out of that University. The US really has an impressive number of schools that attract top faculty from around the world and produce world class research in many fields. A lot of European colleges seem to give you a good education. But if you really wanted to be an expert in something, or just get the experience of working with top people, it is amazing how relatively strong US colleges are. I know I am making a lot of generalizations, perhaps unfairly. So if you disagree or see it a different way please correct me. This is something I am really trying to learn about.

alexpotato 6y ago
Speaking as a dual US/Italian citizen there are some things I would add to your picture (which surprised me when I first learned them). I should also add, my picture is a bit dated since I last looked at this in the early 2000's but a lot of this is still true: US vs Italian "high school" - Finishing Italian secondary education is most equivalent to US high school + at least the first year of most US universities - I believe this is true for most major European countries and boils down to the expectations for students being higher in Europe than in the US US vs Italian universities - It's true that Italian university is free - It's also true that "anyone" can attend - However, there is a mandatory "advancement" exam at the end of the first year that MOST (~70% in the early 2000's) students fail which bars them from continuing - The above is what sometimes skews comparisons between US and Italian colleges - To complete university, you are required to do a "thesis" and then defend it. Historically, this was done orally in front of a panel - There is also the effect that because university is free and housing is usually paid for by parents, taking 5+ years to finish is both normal and somewhat socially acceptable (this is more of an interesting side bar) Long story short, this means the Italian university is really Sophomore year of an American university plus some graduate level work. A good example of this is how there is(was?) no separate law school in Italy since you are essentially doing advanced level courses in "undergrad". Another comparison: at the time (early 2000s) multiple people in senior level positions in European companies mentioned to me that in their opinion, having an MBA from a top US school was equivalent to a degree from a top Italian economics school like Bocconi University. Since most US companies thought of the MBA as the "advanced" degree, they weighed it more heavily so it did "matter" in that sense but not from an education only perspective.
- andreilys 6y ago
  “ Another comparison: at the time (early 2000s) multiple people in senior level positions in European companies mentioned to me that in their opinion, having an MBA from a top US school was equivalent to a degree from a top Italian economics school like Bocconi University” HBS and GSB have much more brand value than Bocconi university. Whether the economics education you get is on par is debatable but it’s clear one of the selling points of an elite US MBA is the signaling. I’m skeptical of the claim that Bocconi university has anywhere near the signaling effect of HBS/GSB.
  - vikramkr 6y ago
    Bocconi might have more signaling value to European or Italian companies perhaps, but American companies have European companies thoroughly beat in terms of number, size, power, global influence, etc. One of the "benefits" of valuing capitalism as much as we have is that the opinion of American company management carries quite a bit more weight around the world, and they would pick harvard over bocconi any day.
- yolovoe 6y ago
  US high school education is not uniform throughout the country. Are you going by some states' requirements here or are you assuming some amount of AP credits?
eecc 6y ago
Well that indeed is a problem. I graduated Engineering from an Italian university and I must say much of my curriculum consisted of mind-bending exercises meant to keep us busy and out of the way. The currency we lacked most was context, insight, and an understanding of why some particular detail mattered. I do think that of all that was thrown at me, something stuck after all; but admittedly the most insightful and profound opportunities that I missed are to be blamed on me, and on the precious little attention to students that the scarce funding allowed for.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
I think the US collages you say are stronger than European ones just boils down to money. It's amazing how having more money just buys you more and better facilities and teaching talent, not to mention the US Gov. investing far more into STEM R&D (for defense) than Europe plus all that sweet private R&D money from all the fortune 500 companies. It all ads up in the end.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  Also admissions criteria. Italian colleges are known for having little control over who they admit (and graduate). Almost all students attend a local university, often without leaving the house. The universities are essentially required to admit (and graduate) large numbers of locals.
ju-st 6y ago
At least in Germany research is often done by e.g. Max Planck or Fraunhofer Society. These are public research organizations which are practically part of the universities but their research output is not counted in rankings.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Anecdote from a friend studying biochemistry in Milan, but mind-blowing. Apparently, he was the only one in his graduate class to know how to use a pipette and other basic lab equipment. Until that point, their training had been purely theoretical. There are a lot of other problems in a similar vein. But the quality of American high-access, high-quality higher education from a practical perspective is a solid counterpoint to the European model of high-access, low-cost.
- tinco 6y ago
  That's weird, basic glassware use including pipette is part of the national final grading in The Netherlands, I guess there's differences across the EU.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  Reminds me of the Feynman story where he goes to Brazil. May be a southern/latin Europe thing? https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education
lordnacho 6y ago
My issue with the rankings is how they emphasise research. Why would it matter to an undergraduate how highly decorated his prof is? We used to joke that the more titles a guy had, the worse he was at teaching. I think this is true because the guys with the titles have moved on to managing research and finding funding, rather than having daily tasks to do with the research. I went to a very well known university that's known for giving tutorials with just a couple of students, and this always seemed to be the case. Top prof = doesn't have time or motivation to teach. If you look at it, everything you do in undergrad is fairly well known anyway. There's no reason why a course at one uni would be much different from another, the fields have decided long ago what is and isn't important. What might affect your kid is what peers they end up with. If you go to a top uni, people are used to doing well and tend to come from backgrounds that allow them to succeed.
- ummonk 6y ago
  This depends whether you go to college to be taught or you go to college to network and get involved in research.
- noodlesUK 6y ago
  One of the problems that universities need to contend with is that they’re simultaneously meant to be research institutions and educational institutions. I think universities tend to do better if they focus on research first and let that lead their (comparatively smaller) teaching responsibilities.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  Well, a few things: 1. Research is part of the pedagogy. Getting involved in a research lab as an undergraduate is a great way to land in the top 5-10 percentile. 2. I think what you're saying is roughly correct, but would warn that you can very easily go way too far in the other direction. For example, check out some of the smaller colleges and state branch campuses launching data science departments staffed entirely by non-stats/non-CS faculty who have 0 days of work experience. Mostly because their math courses are under-subscribed and they've gotta do something with those bodies. The quality of these programs is about what you'd expect. So, you don't need top-tier faculty. However, you do need faculty who have at least a relevant terminal degree and/or significant work experience. Otherwise, it's the blind leading the blind. 3. Curriculum does vary radically between universities! C.f., Stanford and a random branch campus of a state school. 4. As you noted, cohorts can also vary even more radically.
pa7x1 6y ago
Top European universities provide pretty good education pre-PhD level, in many cases the first 3-5 years in European schools is superior and more focused than the equivalent US curriculum. The first 1 or 2 years in US universities seem spent filling the gaps left by a mediocre High School education. US universities are then miles ahead of most European schools in their PhD programs bare a few exceptions (Oxford, Cambridge, ETH...).
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  PhD programs in the US and elsewhere are often not directly comparable. Doing a PhD in the US typically involves 1-3 years still taking classes. Doing one in the UK means starting thesis-forming research immediately. Not really the same thing at all.
  - google234123 6y ago
    Most programs I've seen have students starting research immediately. Sometimes you might have a few months of rotations through different groups.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      Every friend I have (or ex-wife :) with a US PhD (this spans physics, history, computer science, physiology, geology) did classes for the first 2 years (roughly).
      - google234123 6y ago
        You can do both at the same time.
  - pyuser583 6y ago
    US and UK degrees in general are not comparable.
  - ianmiers 6y ago
    Uk CS PhD: spend one year figuring out what you are doing, 1/1.5 years doing research. 1 year writing up. Thats the summary I've gotten from several faculty. On top of that, you have to go do a few postdocs if you want to do academia.(maybe a good thing, but not necessary in hot areas in the US for PhDs from highly ranked schools) There's a reason the UK is trying to go over to centers for doctoral training and 5 year PhDs. Yes, in those and the US system, you spend 2 years taking classes. But in that time you are also getting spun up and then doing research.
pyuser583 6y ago
Spain and Italy have a reputation for crappy universities. Italy especially.
galaxyLogic 6y ago
It may very well be the that the 10 best universities are in the USA so if you want your kid in the best university rather than sending them to Europe that might be the way to go. That doesn't mean that in general the quality of education, for the general public in Europe would not be higher. It's a bit like the US healthcare system, the best in the world, but only for those who can afford it.
GlennS 6y ago
I always find it a little suspicious that all the university rankings in English-speaking newspapers rate English-speaking unversities the highest. That said, there are definitely opportunities in the USA that aren't available elsewhere.
realusername 6y ago
> The quality of the research that comes out of that University Research in continental Europe does not come from universities but mainly from research institutes, so I'm not sure what you are comparing here...
ridaj 6y ago
US is great for Masters levels and above, where there is indeed such a thing as a world-class specialists helping shape the next generation of experts. If you're thinking about college though, that doesn't churn out experts. The material is well-known, and IMO it's more important to have great teachers available to answer your questions than to have world-class research experts on the brochure. Great teachers are also not everywhere, but they are in far higher abundance than the so-called "top faculty", and maybe good teaching doesn't even correlate very strongly with research brilliance. Some of the classes in which I learned the most had teachers who were (I now see in retrospect) relatively middling postdoc folks, or long-tenured professors who didn't really have much more research "juice" in them... but they had a well constructed syllabus, were able to cleanly articulate concepts, give examples, give exercises, give encouragement, etc. I've also taken classes with world-class researchers, and some of them were outstanding, while others had sloppy syllabus prep, didn't adequately coordinate with TA's, gave lectures that weren't engaging as they jumped into long solo calculations at the blackboard that they had trouble making their way out of... In short, they couldn't be bothered. So I wouldn't generalize from my experience either, but I think that especially for college, teaching quality, and student body quality (peers are an important source of motivation) are more important than world-class research renown. Working in tech in the US, I see enough high-performing European and Asian immigrants that I think it could be good for an American kids today to consider getting a degree from a school abroad for a fraction of what it would've cost them in the US.
- baskire 6y ago
  The best math professor I had was atrocious at teaching. If not down right abusive. Taught me how to ask the right questions. How to capture requirements and learn on my own. Top Universities aren’t their to teach. They are their to empower you to teach yourself and explore deep in areas. While also learning the fundamentals that are necessary for this enablement. That is drastically different than the average ranked schools.
rscho 6y ago
Europe educates people. The US let you believe your child can bring in his little league bat and get to play with the Yankees. I'd be most surprised if the progress you make as a student was correlated to having the rock stars of the field in your school. In the age of the internet, if you're good and motivated you can work with pretty much anyone in the world.
alkonaut 6y ago
> what I look for is the strength of the top faculty I think most people getting doing normal undergraduate program rarely notice where the top factulty is strong and where it isn't. I sure didn't in the first years of an education. Every university has better and worse departments (those with some reputation for its research, and "others"). I have seen nothing that suggests that the undergraduate education given by staff at the less-known departmenmts is worse than the education given at the "good" ones. Of course, if you want to get a PhD or even take an advanced undergrad or PhD-class in a 4th or 5th year at a university, you'll notice where the skilled academics are. But the vast majority of the education done at an university is in the basic undergraduate classes given to hundreds of students every semester. It's the quality of that I think is most important, and I'm going to argue that it's probably not dependent on the number of Nobel Prize medals in the department.
jillesvangurp 6y ago
Nonsense, there are a lot of universities in Europe to choose from that have been around for centuries with excellent reputations that also publish world class research, rake in nobel prices, attract foreign students & researchers, etc. US universities tend to be better at marketing because their core business is separating their students from their cash and making them feel good about that. That does not automatically translate into a better academic performance. There are a lot of second and third rate institutions that are perhaps better at their marketing than actual academic performance. Arguably the smart move for a US school kid would be to opt for the life experience, language skills and education at a university abroad instead of opting into a mortage to get an education from some local college.
pjmlp 6y ago
My degree was 5 years with professional Software Engineering accreditation (legal title in Portugal), and it had a level of data structures, systems programming, distributed computing, graphics and programming languages that I still find people missing out in online discussions. So naturally there are bad ones as well, it is a matter of doing the research, and in Portugal's case, having the required grades to get in.
etripe 6y ago
I haven't done a STEM education, but it seems to me like the quality of research output is dependent on the field, to start with. Second, doesn't it really only become relevant at the PhD level, not bachelor's or master's degrees? Seems to me like nothing precludes you from going for a good education in Europe and then getting good research opportunities in the US.

alexpotato 6y ago

Speaking as a dual US/Italian citizen there are some things I would add to your picture (which surprised me when I first learned them). I should also add, my picture is a bit dated since I last looked at this in the early 2000's but a lot of this is still true: US vs Italian "high school" - Finishing Italian secondary education is most equivalent to US high school + at least the first year of most US universities - I believe this is true for most major European countries and boils down to the expectations for students being higher in Europe than in the US US vs Italian universities - It's true that Italian university is free - It's also true that "anyone" can attend - However, there is a mandatory "advancement" exam at the end of the first year that MOST (~70% in the early 2000's) students fail which bars them from continuing - The above is what sometimes skews comparisons between US and Italian colleges - To complete university, you are required to do a "thesis" and then defend it. Historically, this was done orally in front of a panel - There is also the effect that because university is free and housing is usually paid for by parents, taking 5+ years to finish is both normal and somewhat socially acceptable (this is more of an interesting side bar) Long story short, this means the Italian university is really Sophomore year of an American university plus some graduate level work. A good example of this is how there is(was?) no separate law school in Italy since you are essentially doing advanced level courses in "undergrad". Another comparison: at the time (early 2000s) multiple people in senior level positions in European companies mentioned to me that in their opinion, having an MBA from a top US school was equivalent to a degree from a top Italian economics school like Bocconi University. Since most US companies thought of the MBA as the "advanced" degree, they weighed it more heavily so it did "matter" in that sense but not from an education only perspective.

andreilys 6y ago
“ Another comparison: at the time (early 2000s) multiple people in senior level positions in European companies mentioned to me that in their opinion, having an MBA from a top US school was equivalent to a degree from a top Italian economics school like Bocconi University” HBS and GSB have much more brand value than Bocconi university. Whether the economics education you get is on par is debatable but it’s clear one of the selling points of an elite US MBA is the signaling. I’m skeptical of the claim that Bocconi university has anywhere near the signaling effect of HBS/GSB.
- vikramkr 6y ago
  Bocconi might have more signaling value to European or Italian companies perhaps, but American companies have European companies thoroughly beat in terms of number, size, power, global influence, etc. One of the "benefits" of valuing capitalism as much as we have is that the opinion of American company management carries quite a bit more weight around the world, and they would pick harvard over bocconi any day.
yolovoe 6y ago
US high school education is not uniform throughout the country. Are you going by some states' requirements here or are you assuming some amount of AP credits?

eecc 6y ago

Well that indeed is a problem. I graduated Engineering from an Italian university and I must say much of my curriculum consisted of mind-bending exercises meant to keep us busy and out of the way. The currency we lacked most was context, insight, and an understanding of why some particular detail mattered. I do think that of all that was thrown at me, something stuck after all; but admittedly the most insightful and profound opportunities that I missed are to be blamed on me, and on the precious little attention to students that the scarce funding allowed for.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

I think the US collages you say are stronger than European ones just boils down to money. It's amazing how having more money just buys you more and better facilities and teaching talent, not to mention the US Gov. investing far more into STEM R&D (for defense) than Europe plus all that sweet private R&D money from all the fortune 500 companies. It all ads up in the end.

pyuser583 6y ago
Also admissions criteria. Italian colleges are known for having little control over who they admit (and graduate). Almost all students attend a local university, often without leaving the house. The universities are essentially required to admit (and graduate) large numbers of locals.

ju-st 6y ago

At least in Germany research is often done by e.g. Max Planck or Fraunhofer Society. These are public research organizations which are practically part of the universities but their research output is not counted in rankings.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Anecdote from a friend studying biochemistry in Milan, but mind-blowing. Apparently, he was the only one in his graduate class to know how to use a pipette and other basic lab equipment. Until that point, their training had been purely theoretical. There are a lot of other problems in a similar vein. But the quality of American high-access, high-quality higher education from a practical perspective is a solid counterpoint to the European model of high-access, low-cost.

tinco 6y ago
That's weird, basic glassware use including pipette is part of the national final grading in The Netherlands, I guess there's differences across the EU.
mixmastamyk 6y ago
Reminds me of the Feynman story where he goes to Brazil. May be a southern/latin Europe thing? https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

lordnacho 6y ago

My issue with the rankings is how they emphasise research. Why would it matter to an undergraduate how highly decorated his prof is? We used to joke that the more titles a guy had, the worse he was at teaching. I think this is true because the guys with the titles have moved on to managing research and finding funding, rather than having daily tasks to do with the research. I went to a very well known university that's known for giving tutorials with just a couple of students, and this always seemed to be the case. Top prof = doesn't have time or motivation to teach. If you look at it, everything you do in undergrad is fairly well known anyway. There's no reason why a course at one uni would be much different from another, the fields have decided long ago what is and isn't important. What might affect your kid is what peers they end up with. If you go to a top uni, people are used to doing well and tend to come from backgrounds that allow them to succeed.

ummonk 6y ago
This depends whether you go to college to be taught or you go to college to network and get involved in research.
noodlesUK 6y ago
One of the problems that universities need to contend with is that they’re simultaneously meant to be research institutions and educational institutions. I think universities tend to do better if they focus on research first and let that lead their (comparatively smaller) teaching responsibilities.
throwawaygh 6y ago
Well, a few things: 1. Research is part of the pedagogy. Getting involved in a research lab as an undergraduate is a great way to land in the top 5-10 percentile. 2. I think what you're saying is roughly correct, but would warn that you can very easily go way too far in the other direction. For example, check out some of the smaller colleges and state branch campuses launching data science departments staffed entirely by non-stats/non-CS faculty who have 0 days of work experience. Mostly because their math courses are under-subscribed and they've gotta do something with those bodies. The quality of these programs is about what you'd expect. So, you don't need top-tier faculty. However, you do need faculty who have at least a relevant terminal degree and/or significant work experience. Otherwise, it's the blind leading the blind. 3. Curriculum does vary radically between universities! C.f., Stanford and a random branch campus of a state school. 4. As you noted, cohorts can also vary even more radically.

pa7x1 6y ago

Top European universities provide pretty good education pre-PhD level, in many cases the first 3-5 years in European schools is superior and more focused than the equivalent US curriculum. The first 1 or 2 years in US universities seem spent filling the gaps left by a mediocre High School education. US universities are then miles ahead of most European schools in their PhD programs bare a few exceptions (Oxford, Cambridge, ETH...).

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
PhD programs in the US and elsewhere are often not directly comparable. Doing a PhD in the US typically involves 1-3 years still taking classes. Doing one in the UK means starting thesis-forming research immediately. Not really the same thing at all.
- google234123 6y ago
  Most programs I've seen have students starting research immediately. Sometimes you might have a few months of rotations through different groups.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    Every friend I have (or ex-wife :) with a US PhD (this spans physics, history, computer science, physiology, geology) did classes for the first 2 years (roughly).
    - google234123 6y ago
      You can do both at the same time.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  US and UK degrees in general are not comparable.
- ianmiers 6y ago
  Uk CS PhD: spend one year figuring out what you are doing, 1/1.5 years doing research. 1 year writing up. Thats the summary I've gotten from several faculty. On top of that, you have to go do a few postdocs if you want to do academia.(maybe a good thing, but not necessary in hot areas in the US for PhDs from highly ranked schools) There's a reason the UK is trying to go over to centers for doctoral training and 5 year PhDs. Yes, in those and the US system, you spend 2 years taking classes. But in that time you are also getting spun up and then doing research.

pyuser583 6y ago

Spain and Italy have a reputation for crappy universities. Italy especially.

galaxyLogic 6y ago

It may very well be the that the 10 best universities are in the USA so if you want your kid in the best university rather than sending them to Europe that might be the way to go. That doesn't mean that in general the quality of education, for the general public in Europe would not be higher. It's a bit like the US healthcare system, the best in the world, but only for those who can afford it.

GlennS 6y ago

I always find it a little suspicious that all the university rankings in English-speaking newspapers rate English-speaking unversities the highest. That said, there are definitely opportunities in the USA that aren't available elsewhere.

realusername 6y ago

> The quality of the research that comes out of that University Research in continental Europe does not come from universities but mainly from research institutes, so I'm not sure what you are comparing here...

ridaj 6y ago

US is great for Masters levels and above, where there is indeed such a thing as a world-class specialists helping shape the next generation of experts. If you're thinking about college though, that doesn't churn out experts. The material is well-known, and IMO it's more important to have great teachers available to answer your questions than to have world-class research experts on the brochure. Great teachers are also not everywhere, but they are in far higher abundance than the so-called "top faculty", and maybe good teaching doesn't even correlate very strongly with research brilliance. Some of the classes in which I learned the most had teachers who were (I now see in retrospect) relatively middling postdoc folks, or long-tenured professors who didn't really have much more research "juice" in them... but they had a well constructed syllabus, were able to cleanly articulate concepts, give examples, give exercises, give encouragement, etc. I've also taken classes with world-class researchers, and some of them were outstanding, while others had sloppy syllabus prep, didn't adequately coordinate with TA's, gave lectures that weren't engaging as they jumped into long solo calculations at the blackboard that they had trouble making their way out of... In short, they couldn't be bothered. So I wouldn't generalize from my experience either, but I think that especially for college, teaching quality, and student body quality (peers are an important source of motivation) are more important than world-class research renown. Working in tech in the US, I see enough high-performing European and Asian immigrants that I think it could be good for an American kids today to consider getting a degree from a school abroad for a fraction of what it would've cost them in the US.

baskire 6y ago
The best math professor I had was atrocious at teaching. If not down right abusive. Taught me how to ask the right questions. How to capture requirements and learn on my own. Top Universities aren’t their to teach. They are their to empower you to teach yourself and explore deep in areas. While also learning the fundamentals that are necessary for this enablement. That is drastically different than the average ranked schools.

rscho 6y ago

Europe educates people. The US let you believe your child can bring in his little league bat and get to play with the Yankees. I'd be most surprised if the progress you make as a student was correlated to having the rock stars of the field in your school. In the age of the internet, if you're good and motivated you can work with pretty much anyone in the world.

alkonaut 6y ago

> what I look for is the strength of the top faculty I think most people getting doing normal undergraduate program rarely notice where the top factulty is strong and where it isn't. I sure didn't in the first years of an education. Every university has better and worse departments (those with some reputation for its research, and "others"). I have seen nothing that suggests that the undergraduate education given by staff at the less-known departmenmts is worse than the education given at the "good" ones. Of course, if you want to get a PhD or even take an advanced undergrad or PhD-class in a 4th or 5th year at a university, you'll notice where the skilled academics are. But the vast majority of the education done at an university is in the basic undergraduate classes given to hundreds of students every semester. It's the quality of that I think is most important, and I'm going to argue that it's probably not dependent on the number of Nobel Prize medals in the department.

jillesvangurp 6y ago

Nonsense, there are a lot of universities in Europe to choose from that have been around for centuries with excellent reputations that also publish world class research, rake in nobel prices, attract foreign students & researchers, etc. US universities tend to be better at marketing because their core business is separating their students from their cash and making them feel good about that. That does not automatically translate into a better academic performance. There are a lot of second and third rate institutions that are perhaps better at their marketing than actual academic performance. Arguably the smart move for a US school kid would be to opt for the life experience, language skills and education at a university abroad instead of opting into a mortage to get an education from some local college.

pjmlp 6y ago

My degree was 5 years with professional Software Engineering accreditation (legal title in Portugal), and it had a level of data structures, systems programming, distributed computing, graphics and programming languages that I still find people missing out in online discussions. So naturally there are bad ones as well, it is a matter of doing the research, and in Portugal's case, having the required grades to get in.

etripe 6y ago

I haven't done a STEM education, but it seems to me like the quality of research output is dependent on the field, to start with. Second, doesn't it really only become relevant at the PhD level, not bachelor's or master's degrees? Seems to me like nothing precludes you from going for a good education in Europe and then getting good research opportunities in the US.