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Players are fixing Microsoft Flight Simulator’s monuments with Google Maps
- cableshaft 6y agoI knew this would happen eventually, only a matter of time. I'm really excited for how souped up everything will look in a year or two.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- panpanna 6y agoIs MSFS was just a front to improve Bing Maps for free?
- LeoPanthera 6y agoOnly if developing a modern flight simulator is free.
- bronco21016 6y agoI would imagine it’s at least a break even right? They do charge for it after all.
- penagwin 6y agoThey charge a full $59.99 too. But I know the target audience would happily pay full price.
- masklinn 6y ago$60 seems pretty low for a sim as complete as it seems to be, apparently there’s multiple PB if sim data?
- xmprt 6y agoMy only worry is if one day they decide to stop supporting it (even if it's 10 years in the future) and all of a sudden it's not possible to fly around because the service that streamed map data from the cloud isn't running.
- Voliokis 6y agoAfaik, there's an offline mode. It seems like you're forced to complete an online update before you're allowed to start the game proper though and you might be stuck with the original data on the discs even if you could skip that, which would sort of suck.
- Sohcahtoa82 6y agoThis is correct. The game client is about a 91 gigabyte download which will include all the aircraft and a low-resolution copy of the entire world. This offline data is fully functional. You only need to be online for multiplayer, live air traffic data, and to stream high-quality versions of the world. Also, the game has an option to manually add areas of the world to the high quality data cache, so if you know you're going to be without Internet for a while, but still want to be able to fly over certain areas with high-quality imagery, you can do that.
- Voliokis 6y agoIsn't there an online check to ensure you have a license?
- Sohcahtoa82 6y agoI would hope that if the game servers were being taken offline permanently, then the license check would be removed. Even if Microsoft chose not to remove the license check, it would certainly get cracked. Cracks likely exist already.
- netsharc 6y ago
- bhupy 6y agoIt’s actually $120 for the highest deluxe edition, which includes the 787, SFO airport, and Heathrow. I imagine a decent chunk of folks on this site wouldn’t want to play without the decked out SFO experience.
- throwaway43234 6y agoCurious, whats so special about SFO? I searched for some images and it doesn't seem terribly special (certainly not 2x price special).
- GoOnThenDoTell 6y agoFor me, it’s the airport I’ve flown in-out of as a passenger the highest number of times. I suspect that’s true of a lot of people on this site
- leoedin 6y agoMy guess from the list of premium airports is that Microsoft has made a judgement based on wealthy geek density. People love to fly their local or familiar airports, and the kind of people in San Francisco who play flight simulator are wealthier than most. All the premium airports are either tech or financial hubs. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eurogamer.net/amp/2020-07-30-whats-the-deal-with-microsoft-flight-simulators-premium-airports https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eurogamer.net/amp/2020-07-3...
- michaelnik 6y agoMaybe because KSFO is covered by PilotEdge* ATC? [*] professional air traffic control for flight simulators
- joshschreuder 6y agoDo you know if thia edition comes with the monthy Xbox Game Pass (which is considerably cheaper if you don't mind "renting" the game)
- Scramblejams 6y ago
- priomsrb 6y agoIf Xbox game pass is available for you, you can also get it for free with a $5 monthly membership.
- selectodude 6y agoYeah, and as a way to advertise the crazy cool stuff you can do with Azure Maps.
- DevKoala 6y agoHow much do you think it cost to build the software?
- notatoad 6y agothat was my first thought too, but the article says these models are being used by users saving them to the "community" folder in their game install. the models aren't being submitted for inclusion into the official map. (if they were, google might have something to say about all this)
- mastax 6y agoMicrosoft doesn't get to import the data. This all ends up in user made mods.
- giancarlostoro 6y agoIts Open Street Maps who benefits most. Microsoft uses OSM data from what I can tell, they get their imagery from other companies.
- AmericanChopper 6y agoI think the best solution would be for Microsoft to allow the public to submit models for review to be included in Bing maps. I don’t think they want FS to become the sort of “game” where you install it, and then you have to also install hundreds of mods to get the proper experience from it (like Cities: Skylines). It would also have the knock-on benefit to MS of having lots of motivated people to crowdsource Bing maps improvements from.
- TylerE 6y agoFlight Sim modding was a thing long before modding for other games... FS engines are basically mod hosts. High-end aircraft addons use it for little more than a graphics engine - they have their own code to run instruments, systems, engines, and even the actual flight model.
- masklinn 6y ago> Flight Sim modding was a thing long before modding for other games... That’s unlikely to be true, game modding is at least as old as the flight sim franchise.
- TylerE 6y agoThe first version of Flight Sim dates from 1983. I remember commercial addons being sold IN STORES by the mid 90s.
- actuator 6y agoIsn't Super Missile Attack mod for Missile Command from 1981, the first mod for a game?
- occamrazor 6y agoThis could become a problem if users use Google’s data to create the models they submit to MS.
- northwest65 6y ago
- sillysaurusx 6y agoAlso see this 212-floor monolith added by accident in Melbourne, Australia: https://twitter.com/liamosaur/status/1296305264870662144 https://twitter.com/liamosaur/status/1296305264870662144
- fireattack 6y agoThis is interesting. I thought they use aerial/satellite data to generate 3D models, didn't know they rely on things like floor number. But isn't floor height vary a lot? Also I guess it's not the only info they use either?
- Macha 6y agoThe problem comes from a typo by an OSM editor, as they also import OSM data for some areas (this is a 2 way relationship, they allow OSM to trace their satellite images to build out OSM's database)
- coding123 6y agoFloor heights do, but from the perspective of just getting as much usable data as they can so you can see the 3d buildings, whatever works, right?
- ehnto 6y agoI'm pretty sure it's a mixture, as not all cities will have LIDAR/3D scan data available. The Melbourne CBD is accurately modeled, but the outskirts look like procedural generation.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- hetspookjee 6y agoI wonder if Google or Microsoft would stop this indirect way of copying through Google Maps. I think Google would claim copyright on the 3d scanned data that is available through Google Maps. Without this the Open Source community wouldn't be able to as easily shovel this over through programs into MSFS. Though I think Microsoft would be out of harms way for as long as they don't blatantly paste back the user improved buildings. However, obviously not all improvements are gathered from Google Maps and dependent on the scale this might become an issue in detecting these.
- cma 6y agoThere would be no copyright on a 3D scan in most jurisdictions, but maybe on any manual cleanup work.
- sgtnoodle 6y agoA 3D scan seems like it would be as copyrightable as a photograph would be.
- roywiggins 6y agoThe argument is that a photograph is a creative work (there are lots of decisions that go into it) whereas a scan is a mechanical reproduction, and therefore isn't creative, and so can't be copyrighted at all. I don't know what the state of the law on this is. https://boingboing.net/2016/06/01/why-3d-scans-arent-copyright.html https://boingboing.net/2016/06/01/why-3d-scans-arent-copyrig...
- systemvoltage 6y agoAside: I wish FS2020 had more indepth tutorials, more focus towards learning how to fly properly and a ground school with missions. The built-in tutorial is so lacking, it doesn't even teach you how to use a VOR for navigation. I think they've done simulation/realism of the physics right and the way the airplane feels is very real - just the education part should be more of a focus than the pure entertainment bits.
- aaomidi 6y agoAnd just more specific tutorials for plane types. But YouTube has been great for that.
- mhh__ 6y agoDCS is quite like that, in that if you want to learn the systems there are some decent lessons for some planes but none of them cover things like BFM or (server!) etiquette. Luckily there is a thriving online community to help you learn the ropes, although it is rather annoying sometimes to be just fumbling around. The F-14's AI RIO "Jester" can actually guide you through startup, which is very cool
- ethbro 6y agoDCS? https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/ https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/ ? (It's been Janes-90s since I sim'd)
- mhh__ 6y agoYep. It's a bit of a rough diamond but it's a good game nonetheless.
- kitteh 6y agoDCS has put some great training tutorials that come with it. That combined with Chuck's super detailed and colorful PDFs guides for each aircraft as amazing. Agree that multiplayer how-to's is lacking.
- 6y ago
- chinhodado 6y agoI don't understand. Are the models actually missing from Bing maps, or did MS remove them for copyright reasons?
- notatoad 6y agothe models aren't missing so much as just terrible. bing doesn't have detailed 3d representations of every building and geographical feature on earth, they're creating them algorithmically from aerial photography. sometimes, that results in things like the sydney harbour bridge being rendered as a featureless rectangle.
- colejohnson66 6y ago> they're creating them algorithmically from aerial photography. Google does the same thing. You used to be able to use SketchUp to model buildings for them, but, a few years ago, they switched to computer generated models. It was very obvious from the pointy trees and rough edges on buildings.
- lucb1e 6y agoAnd the suddenly widespread availability rather than a select few building. There's something to say for either approach.
- rasz 6y agoGoogle doesnt use AI/ML for automagic photogrammetry, as a result they are really bad at things like balconies looking more like a glitch than a building feature. They also dont feed 3d models back into their maps. My building stopped existing on Google 2D map sometime 10 years ago despite having fairly accurate 3d model.
- lucb1e 6y agoIf you're into that sort of thing, OpenStreetMap supports 3D mapping as well. I haven't looked into it but while from my understanding it's fairly basic, at least you're sure that your data will be around in ten years and openly available for people to use and display.
- Mountain_Skies 6y agoMaybe in a year or so from now once they have enough usage telemetry and have cleaned up some of the errors, they'll be willing to release an Ultimate Edition on a terabyte SSD that includes the sim and the scenery that is most commonly used. That would make a nicer "out of the box" experience and would make things better for those with limited bandwidth or data caps.
- ec109685 6y agoAmazing that would only cost $34 for the drive: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08FGZBCWQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_axitFb9ETAKE1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08FGZBCWQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_ax...
- raphlinus 6y agoThat's not a 1TB USB drive, it's a tapestry. Then they took the listing for that and changed it to a USB drive so they could harvest the 5 star reviews. Amazon has turned into a flea market.
- recursion 6y agoAmazingly, as far as I can tell anyway, there's not even a "report listing" button. Incredible.
- whynaut 6y agoThey are actually selling a USB drive through this listing now, though. From a review: "Attractive case, but the guts are actually just a 16 GB drive with the memory addresses looped around to try and hide the fact that it's a low-mid capacity drive. It'll make folder structures just fine, but as soon as you hit 16 GB, BAM! It starts overwriting from the lowest address. Made for a nasty, nasty surprise when I was collecting data only to check it later and find nothing there but empty folders."
- dawnerd 6y agoThat's such a total scam.
- alphanumeric0 6y agoNow Microsoft just needs to update their flight modeling to use blade element simulation like X-Plane.
- strogonoff 6y agoI’d rather see X-Plane improve graphics instead. Feels better to support a small shop rather than give my money to one behemoth of a corporation. X-Plane dev team are chill and host live video Q&A sometimes, I think they have been porting graphics from OpenGL to Vulcan & Metal lately so there’s hope.
- johnghanks 6y agoWhat a stupid comment. Who cares who makes the games you enjoy?
- arcticfox 6y agoApparently the person you responded to? I also care, at least somewhat, who makes the games I play. If I know or like the team who made the game, I tend to get a bit more into the game / community. As an extreme example, I made a (really bad) Quidditch game in Flash when I was in high school that I played for dozens of hours... pretty much only because I made it. (It was kind of surreal at the time having simple AIs that I coded outplay me.)
- Talanes 6y agoDid you play it because you liked the creator, or because the creator had a strong insight into what you like?
- strogonoff 6y agoNot OP but I find I’d easily get a game because I empathize with its creator in some way. It’s more likely what they make may align with me, though even the act of choosing to acquire a game makes it more likely I would enjoy it (mere-exposure and you can’t enjoy a game you wouldn’t buy). I’m hardly a gamer at all, but that’s how I ended up getting Disco Elysium—and it didn’t disappoint. I think Patreon takes it to the extreme—you can literally support a game developer, and get whatever they make without knowing what it will be. (Related: buying merch of your favorite band, even if you don’t really need those T-shirts and rarely wear them.) With X-Plane it’s different; I got it for state-of-the-art flight model simulation (surprisingly low price point pushed me) and only recently started paying attention to who makes it. It’s really cool: I reckon they must make most profit from selling FAA-certified version for professional pilot training, but they still choose to offer pretty much the same program (sans some really specialized hardware support) for peanuts to enthusiasts. Supporting non-enterprise consumers must cost them, though I suppose they get bug reports in return. Liking the creator doesn’t only cause one to buy a product, but significantly increases the chances they will champion it to support the creator further.
- rosywoozlechan 6y agoI was curious as to what the impact would be on Bing's map product. The flight sim community is fixing these landmarks and creating files that players then have to import locally, this doesn't bring improvements over into Bing. Microsoft doesn't gain anything from this.
- kabacha 6y ago> Microsoft doesn't gain anything from this Of course they do. They get PR and at worst case scenario they get quality QA.
- johnghanks 6y agoIsn't the joke on Google in this case as MS has successfully gameified "stealing" assets from Google to be used in Bing Maps?
- seventhtiger 6y agoIsn't that what Ingress tried to do first? And the Google local guide program seems quite successful.
- demarq 6y agoI hope someone at MS is doing this intentionally. This could be the ultimate tactical move by Microsoft Getting your competitors most loyal customers to build your platform willingly
- giancarlostoro 6y agoIt would wind up in OSM which means it will wind up helping much more than just Microsoft.
- endless1234 6y ago"To be used in Bing Maps" is a bit of a stretch. They're models shared by users you can import one by one into your install of MSFS.
- bitL 6y agoWhile I see FS2020 as a monumental achievement and a great version 1, my main gripes with it are mostly related to the 3D elevation data handling, simplification and rendering: - steep surfaces are both too rounded and textures look like a stretched pixel strip across the whole surface; most mountains look very underwhelming when nearby and flying inside Grand Canyon/Marble Canyon looks weird - some 3D tiles aren't linked properly, leading to sudden discontinuities in the surface; try to e.g. fly through the Remarkables mountains north to Queenstown, NZ - some water bodies are upside down, instead of being in a valley they were processed as "aqueducts"; see Victoria Falls in Africa for a very long "aqueduct" - certain geographic locations have invisible borders one can crash into; try to land in the Badwater basin in Death Valley - when cities switch from procedural to photogrammetry, the detailed city doesn't match its surroundings color-wise and usually ends up very dark - many bridges include water underneath as a wall; SF Bay is full of them - satellite imagery is not consistent (usually corresponds to Bing Maps one) and in many places one can see sharp borders between tiles coming from different satellite scans - some interesting parts of the world don't have consistently high resolution like Maldives or Kamchatka - roads are often projected as textures onto a steep terrain and no effort was made to carve them out - certain type of green is sometimes misidentified as a forest, leading to obscuring some great views like Kalalau lookout on Kauai etc. - some taller buildings end up looking like pyramids from a distance due to the used shape simplification algorithm; I saw German pyramids near Mannheim that way
- Stevvo 6y ago"certain geographic locations have invisible borders one can crash into; try to land in the Badwater basin in Death Valley" The technical reason behind this bug is that Badwater Basin is below sea level; the game thinks you have crashed into the ocean.
- aimor 6y agoI'm surprised the game doesn't make more use of Microsoft's existing building data and aerial photography. Maybe someone can explain. But Bing maps has very detailed 3D building shape data and aerial "Birds Eye" photography. But in MFS2020 when I fly over neighborhoods with lots of trees the houses get mangled in ridiculous ways. Why would they only use low fidelity satellite imagery for this?
- fjfaase 6y agoIt might be that architectural designs are copyrighted as well in the countries and maybe that different rules apply when you want to use a design in a game than using it in an information service, such as a mapping service.
- kebman 6y agoHave they fixed the castle (Kastro) in Myrina / Μύρινα on Lemnos yet (Kavala in Arma 3)? I saw a nice vide of it here, complete with a comparison with Arma 3: Exploring Arma 2's Chernarus and Arma 3's Altis' REAL WORLD AREAS in Microsoft Flight Sim 2020! by OperatorDrewski https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGcMyYL17PQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGcMyYL17PQ I think a lot of Arma 3 fans owning MS Flight Sim will want to fly over there. :)
- tjungblut 6y agoFlying over the Redmond campus over the weekend, I found it quite sad that they didn't really put some effort into it. It looks quite flat and unpolished.