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Funny piece. It can be so easy to waste time when we have the internet. I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actu
by voidhorse 6y ago
Funny piece. It can be so easy to waste time when we have the internet. I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actually work toward your goals. For example, browsing hacker news. Such an activity is useful every now and then, but at least for myself I often scroll around only to realize later that it was a massive waste of time I could’ve spent working on something I care about. I think the brain justifies it since hey, at least I’m “learning” something (not really).
Even something like an addictive videogame is designed to make you feel productive by giving you levels to progress through etc—fundamentally I think we all have a desire to produce, it’s just easy to spend time putting that energy into the wrong forms of productive activity, since these are usually easier and less isolating than actually producing crafts or products.
- bjo590 6y agoI find browsing hackernews to be one of the more beneficial activities I can do for 5-20 minutes as a break between more mentally taxing activities. Meditation, going for a walk, getting a snack or a drink, and a quick chat with a friend are other activities I consider both beneficial and short duration.
- etrautmann 6y agoYep, I rarely think of HN reading time as wasted afterwards.
- pensiveharsh 6y agoPerhaps you haven't spent an absurd amount of time on HN
- snazz 6y agoYeah, I agree that 5-20 minutes is purely beneficial, but it can be more addictive than that.
- TeMPOraL 6y agoBut I had, and I can tell from experience, it's the one Internet activity where I find it hard to determine its net value. With anything else - TV shows, Reddit, Facebook, browsing memes - I can tell the marginal value becomes negative very quickly (after satiating the basic need to relax/unwind). So it makes sense to spend some, but only a little time on this. But with HN... it feels like the above, except every other week I'll find some thought that will improve my understanding of the world. Every other month I'll find a tool that solves a problem or improves something in the projects I'm working on. Every couple years I hit something that essentially alters the course of my career. And around people I work with, I'm known to be the guy that, when told a problem, half of the time will point out a solution mentioned in some HN comment a year earlier (thank $deity for Algolia making finding it again easier). So bottomline, I suspect the total net value of HN for me, after accounting for opportunity costs, is actually slightly positive. At least the procrastinator in me keeps saying that, conveniently omitting the confidence interval, which is absurdly wide.
- lifeisstillgood 6y agoI like to think that gamification will help my kids get "addicted" to useful things like maths homework or exercise. I worry it is just teaching them to get gamified... But the idea is nice - banks that enforce aging and budgets, shops that put fresh produce at the checkouts and never sell chocolate bars...
- emteycz 6y agoI would advise you to fight any addiction your kids might have, especially gaming/other internet points addictions. Gamification is a fix that people addicted to dopamine rushes need, but children shouldn't require it. Instead I would work on framing work in a positive way.
- pjfin123 6y agoThe gamification of Duolingo is something that has really worked for me (as an adult). It has all the parts of an addictive mobile game that keep you coming back: a streak that notifies you if you're in danger of losing it (this is the one that really works for me), social rankings, fun graphics, in game currency. I have a 410 day Spanish streak as of this morning! I took French in middle/high school with the standard lecture/hw school structure and was a lot less successful than I've been with Duolingo. Duolingo alone probably isn't enough to really learn a language but combined with other resources it provides a great structure to keep you committed and provides a great foundation to build from.
- hammock 6y agoI believe his point is not that gamification doesn't work for learning, but rather that it has a nasty side effect of training your brain to be more susceptible to addiction/gamification everywhere, even where you don't want it.
- pjfin123 6y agoI understand that and definitely a valid point especially for kids. I'm just making the point that in some situations there can be real benefits of using gamification. Like most things balance is important.
- threatofrain 6y ago> I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actually work toward your goals. For example, browsing hacker news. This is why I question curiosity as the prescribed value from HN leadership. In its place one could've easily said learning or mastery.
- gas9S9zw3P9c 6y ago> I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actually work toward your goals. For example, browsing hacker news. Time to set up my emacs config to manage my life and stop wasting time.
- arsome 6y agoI mean org-mode is pretty amazing for that kind of thing...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- juanuys 6y agoYes, and time for me to finally start my webcomic, but first I need to build myself a webcomic framework...
- arthurcolle 6y agoNo no we use webcomic framework factories now. That's much more webscale.
- voisin 6y ago> I often scroll around only to realize later that it was a massive waste of time I could’ve spent working on something I care about. Increasing the signal to noise ratio would help reduce time spent scrolling. A “filter” by keyword feature would be massively helpful.
- Viliam1234 6y agoWhen you increase the signal to noise ratio, it makes it even harder to stop reading. For all practical purposes, the internet is infinite; no matter how high you set your standards, gradually you will find enough sources to fill all your free time. During the last few years, I switched from reading low quality content to reading high quality content. I am better informed about various things. But the problem of spending too much time reading remains unchanged.
- simonsarris 6y agoEven among people trying to be productive you sometimes see vortexes of distraction, for instance around note-taking. I like note taking (apps and paper) but I think there is such thing as an over-reliance on them. They promote collecting over being. Perhaps also they stop people from completing their own ideas. One becomes Penelope, weaving the burial shroud of a thought forever. Note taking can be pernicious because it feels like doing something but it also gives an excuse to not put forth your own thoughts until you have all the pieces. Then they become so large they are unweildy. The more notes, the less supple.
- TeMPOraL 6y agoIt's ironic because the same tools can be used to empower your thinking[0]. Instead of collecting notes, note taking utilities can be used as a sort of L2 cache when you're trying to think something through. E.g. most of my problem solving involves repeated sessions with a text file, in which I dump my stream of thought and refine it. Sometimes it means literally talking with myself via a text file, sometimes it's constructing an artifact (like a prioritized list of things to do). Same tool, slightly different approach. -- [0] - Or damage your brain. The fact that I can't think things through unless I'm writing thoughts down or drawing diagrams may be a sign of improved quality of thoughts, or a sign of me no longer being able to think without a crutch.
- noah_buddy 6y agoI think your [0] note points to a hard truth of life. You have to be aware of how you're used to thinking so you can challenge yourself to make your brain work in new ways. I don't think this is by any means essential but I think it can be immensely useful to not always default to the same habit. 80% of the time, it's ok to exploit what you know, but maybe that remaining 20% of the time try thinking in a new way. The hard part is finding those new ways and not being too lazy or rushed to skip it.
- formerly_proven 6y ago"The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Pen and Paper in the Process of Thinking"
- comprev 6y agoHN, Facebook, Reddit, Messenger, YouTube, news websites and dozens of other sites are on a block list from 0900-1800 M-F via a super useful plugin for Firefox (on mobile now and I can't remember it!)
- moneywoes 6y agoDoes the term action faking describe it?
- type0 6y agowhat sort of gamification is there on HN, upvotes not much else? Maybe it's plausible to strike a deal with oneself not to look at upvotes or downvotes, I think that would make comments more sincere. It would be great to have a setting not to display upvotes and down-votes on your own comments but to still be able to respond on threads tab Generally I'm glad that HN has minimal gamification, at least compared to the worst offenders reddit, fb, twitter etc.
- alexfromapex 6y agoWatching sports and memorizing athletes’ stats is another waste of time a lot of people partake in. Here’s to hoping people are more productive during this hiatus.
- papito 6y agoPeople are now terrified of putting down a screen and being left alone with their own thoughts for more than 30 seconds. It's horrifying what's bouncing around up in that dome, and having to process it. But this is exactly what we did before. We got bored, we were wasting time, we were experimenting, and that's how great ideas came around.
- tayo42 6y agoIdk if it's just terrified, but I think we're addicted. This probably sounds ridiculous but I recently blocked some apps and sites on my phone and actually felt a little off for a day, like my sleep was weird. I think there was a slight withdrawal from the constant bombardment of stuff. It is helping kill my Facebook habit. I don't even really like the site, I just check it impulsively. It's weird. Reddit is another one, the infinite scroll I think is addictive. Trying to kill that habit. But there is useful information on there so it's hard to disable it completely.
- jeffnv 6y agoWhat information on reddit is useful?
- papito 6y agoOr Facebook. I use Twitter for doomscrolling, at least it has real time info. Facebook has been utterly useless for years now.
- bosie 6y agoI have taken 3 photography related courses that all have private groups on FB. I don't use FB in any other capacity but the value of those groups is probably among the highest ROIs on the internet for me (hobby wise at least).
- criddell 6y agoIs the Facebook algorithm, social graph, or anything else that is unique to Facebook coming into play in those private groups?
- shaklee3 6y agoI have the complete opposite feeling. As long as you filter yourself fairly well on which topics you read, HN can be immensely useful. You can learn about new things that can help you a lot in your career, that you otherwise may have missed.
- blobbers 6y agoBut usually you missed them for a reason. They just aren’t directly relevant to you. ... but I made a technical decision because of an idea on hacker news. You should have researched that decision outside of hacker news. Less aggregate time spent.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- heisenbit 6y agoThere is a lot that I know which was relevant but is not anymore. A large percentage of knowledge needs constant replacing and often I do not know with what until I‘m exposed. HN gives me exposure. It is part of my solution to staying on top of developments. It does not provide answers to questions I have but to questions I should have had.
- shaklee3 6y agoExcellent way to phrase it. For lock of a better way of saying it, you don't know what you don't know. You can become comfortable with certain things, but the pace at which stuff moves in this industry makes you stale if you don't at least look at the trends every few months or so. you could always be in the camp that says you should look at new trends, but I'm of the complete opposite viewpoint. Some of these new trends which people love to hate ended up working really well in production for me, and being on HN gave me the exposure I needed to them. It also gives you people that have used these technologies in production, and have opinions on them that might be helpful.
- shaklee3 6y agoOf course I researched the decision outside of HN. But just the superficial exposure you have to so many different things that you wouldn't have by just browsing around is invaluable. And just by hearing something like a name can take you on a tangent that can be very fruitful. Case in point: I'm very familiar with Kafka, and the discussions on here usually lead to hinting about new technologies that you may not hear of just by reading a Kafka threat. Things like NATS, Jetstream, liftbridge, pulsar, and the list goes on. Having that kind of exposure just knowing that alternatives are out there, and people having real-world experience with them is really useful.
- Osiris 6y agoI don't think we should think in terms like that. We don't always have to be working toward a goal. There's nothing won't with reading, taking a nap, it sound other unproductive activities. Also, not everyone has big lofty goals of self accomplishment. For some, constant goal seeking can be both stressful and emotionally difficult when goals aren't met. We should be careful to paint with such a broad brush.
- imtringued 6y agoThe worst mistake a lot of people make is put stuff on a backlog aka procrastination. If what you want to do is worth doing then do it today.
- l0ner 6y agoOn the other hand, why do so many highly skilled people push themselves so hard? I do not have any stats, it's just an observation looking at all the people in my environment, and then some public exponents. I've grown up in a family where there was always enough, yet not much in excess. Most grown up people I knew in my childhood would probably complain that they would want more, yet they mostly just did their job, had enough and enjoyed their family life. That is also true for some of the people I later met at university and then in business, but I get the impression that quite a lot of them, even though they have much better jobs than the people from my childhood, invest a lot of their free time trying to pursue their goal. And it is extremely rare that I see someone actually reaching it. It is far more often that their life becomes a lot more miserable, think divorce or similar. Now don't ge me wrong, I think pursuing ones goals can be extremely valuable. But for a lot of people, pursuing a goal and trying to be productive with it while at the same time being married, raising kids, earning money, staying healthy and doing chores is most likely not going to lead anywhere good. So why is it so hard for smart people to accept that fact, and enjoy one or two hours of lazyness every day? Why do people take Elon Musk as an example, if even he himself decribes his life as not too nice?
- arvinsim 6y ago> On the other hand, why do so many highly skilled people push themselves so hard? In this day and age, being productive is considered a virtue.
- wincent 6y ago> I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actually work toward your goals. For example, browsing hacker news. Browsing HN has never felt productive to me. At times useful, entertaining, informative, thought-provoking, and at others less so, when it can seem annoying, repetitive, pointless and so on. But never "productive".
- jedberg 6y ago> It can be so easy to waste time when we have the internet. I'm just really glad I did college when the only thing distracting on the internet was Slashdot and you could only access it with a computer attached to an ethernet cable. I'm almost certain I would not have made it past Freshman year if I had a smartphone.
- ip26 6y agoI realized recently after many years puttering around online that I frequently couldn't name anything I had just read over the last four hours. I haven't taken full control of myself back yet, but that thought was a strong wake-up call to me.
- vocram 6y agoExactly. This happens to me so often. I put my phone back and then ask myself: “what did I just read / watched?” Most of the time I don’t remember.
- Apocryphon 6y agoWhat have you been doing to fight against it?
- nicbou 6y agoI have the opposite experience. I can recall discussions I've read months or years ago. In aggregate, it added a bit of depth to my perception of the world. They gave me a lot more vocabulary to process the world around me, as do good books.
- agumonkey 6y agoLife recently told the meaning of 'know-how' and real life has no competitor. I spent countless hours fiddling with git tutorials, the best branching, workflow.. Nothing was even close to when I had to actual work with it on a tight rope. Curiosity intellect is mostly dead baggage in ones head, knowing how to apply ideas as tools, to actually do something, and even have it in mind when you work so that you know you wrote enough, commit will be long, or merge will be ugly. It all balances out on itself and you actually feel light and capable.
- unix_fan 6y agoReddit was a huge time waste for me. I'd spend entire mornings and nearly all night browsing the site and arguing with other users. I wish I could get all of it back.
- powersnail 6y agoI don't know if internet is really the culprit to how easy it is to waste time. We have long created enough distraction to fill a entire lifespan. Before I've encountered any digital computing device, I used to just play Sudoku during class. Or read novels; I had a textbook that carved, inside which hid a small novel. Or, just day-dream and think about stuff. On the other hand, I enjoyed Sudoku and novels. I don't consider them to be a complete waste of time. In retrospect, they made my childhood better.
- zuhayeer 6y agoIts funny because its hard to gauge – the things you think are the most productive feed strongly into your confirmation bias, so maybe they aren't really that productive after all. But that's fine. In general though, I prefer the idea of going "all in" in whatever I'm doing. If I'm going to play video games, I'm making sure I have a damn good time doing it. If I'm going to put in work, I'm gonna make sure it gets done. Distractions will do you in in both cases. Ruin your fun time and mess up your productivity.
- kokey 6y agoI worked for a big multinational bank and was reasonably comfortable but sometimes not very busy and most of the usual online distractions was blocked except for hacker news. I spent so much time reading hacker news that it was probably a big influence in me deciding to quit my job to join a bootstrapped startup as a CTO. Also probably the biggest mistake of my life. In the aftermath I ended up working as a contractor in a remote office for a tech company to recover my finances. During that time I used to spend my afternoon coffee break reading a newsletter from Matt Levine and I think that's probably one of the primary influences that made me end up working in finance again.
- MichaelBosworth 6y agoWhy was the CTO move a mistake? The biggest mistake of your life, at that.
- nudpiedo 6y agoI completely agree with you. Some other distractions are the many intelectual hobbies overpraised out there, two of them which I know very closely: learning languages and reading lots of books (novels). These activities by itself don’t yell any value by themselves and still free like a super productive to the extent of feeling incredibly productive. One should not forget that intelectual hobbies are in fact still hobbies.