5 ms·

is asbestos really that bad? or is it the long term affects. if charlemagne just used it a show off thing in the diner would it have really mattered?

t3rabytes 6y ago
My understanding is that it's only bad if disturbed and in the air. That's why popcorn ceilings, roof tiles, and insulation with asbestos is all "fine" and not mandated to be removed. But yes, the long-term effects are the real problem.
aspett 6y ago
Yes. Breathing it's fibers can cause serious disease and cancer. Asbestos was used as a common building material in New Zealand for insulation, roof tiles, ceiling tiles and texturing and more in the 1950-1990 period. If you do any renovation or changes that interact with asbestos, it basically has to be handled by a hazmat team. https://ehs.oregonstate.edu/asb-when https://ehs.oregonstate.edu/asb-when > When is Asbestos Dangerous?
liability 6y ago
I think it was particularly lethal to miners and factory workers. One of my great grandfathers died years after working in a factory that made mittens out of asbestos. Any process that disturbs the asbestos is going to be risky.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  The Navy. It was used to insulate pipes and stop fires from spreading. Ships are basically one giant confined space full of pipes and fire barriers.
  - liability 6y ago
    It's sadly ironic that a fireproofing material meant to save lives has killed so many (a great deal more than it plausibly ever saved.)
    - dekhn 6y ago
      I don't know what the actual rates of lived saved by asbestos vs lives taken in. It's one of the classic risk evaluation problems: fires are big, scary and dramatic, people know who died in them, and so a tool that prevents it is welcome. On the other hand, asbestos being dangerous really only came into being after people noticed a pattern of increased early death in asbestos mining towns. We just don't process the risk of a statistically significant increase in early death, compared to the obvious risk of not using fire insulation.
      - dylan604 6y ago
        I like being able to stop my car when I hit the brake pedal. https://www.brakepartsinc.com/raybestos.html https://www.brakepartsinc.com/raybestos.html
      - liability 6y ago
        I don't have a citation for that claim but mesothelioma kills tens of thousands a year. I think it's a safe guess that asbestos fireproofing hasn't been saving that many lives, at least not per year.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Citation please.
  - joezydeco 6y ago
    The first 40 floors of the World Trade Center, both towers, had every steel beam covered in asbestos. The collapse released 2,000 tons of fibers into the atmosphere on 9/11/01.
bjoli 6y ago
I lived in a house with an asbestos facade. As long as you don't need to change anything it is even better than bricks. Easier to clean. Fire safe. Doesn't age much in 50 years. They used it everywhere: facade, insulation, floor glue. If it breaks however, the fibers go everywhere, especially to your lungs where they stay. People working with it died of all kinds of problems, but mostly cancer in the lungs iirc.
- sgt 6y ago
  Also for asbestos roof - if it has been maintained and properly sealed once a decade or so, and is in good state, there is no reason to be worried. In that case it's actually much worse to remove it, and it is a great roofing material. However keep an eye on it if it shows signs of brittleness.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Exactly, it is the dust that is dangerous, not the bulk material. Avoid scratching, grinding, sanding, cutting, drilling and another kind of operation that turns some of the material into dust, especially airborne dust. Always wear a respirator when you have to work with it, always meticulously clean the area around it keep everybody (including pets!) out and if at all avoidable: simply don't touch it. There are companies that specialize in asbestos removal and safe work on it, it is one of the things I check for very carefully when looking at real estate. Finally, you find it in the most unexpected places. Floor coverings, roof coverings, liners, chimneys, stoves, ovens, as spray-on covering of steel beams and girders (and floor joists), the list if endless. If you don't know what you're looking at in an older building and it's gray stop until you are 100% sure that it isn't asbestos.
paulgerhardt 6y ago
Yes, but in insidious ways. In the era of Charlemagne, many other things would have had significantly higher micromorts. As a dinner guest, I would have enjoyed the show rather than headed for the doors. At a dinner party today? No way. According to the official CDC report which was used by the EPA to ban new uses of asbestos [1] the gist is that asbestos isn't a traditional poison. We measure most "poisons" in terms of Lethal Dose (LD50) or roughly paraphrased "how much of this would it take to kill 50% of subjects." We tend to think of something, like cyanide, as "very poisonous" if a small amount of something will kill you very quickly. But we measure lethality in other ways - "lethal concentration" (LC0 - whats the lowest concentration in air that has been observed to caused a fatality, LC50 at what concentration is 50% affected), lowest observed adverse affects level (will this mess you up like lead poisoning?), lethal time (LT0 - lowest amount of time observed to cause fatality, LT50 - time to cause fatality in 50% of population), and a host of others. Asbestos doesn't have an observed LD50 (at least not in that report). No one has died within a few hours of inhaling asbestos like they would if, say, they ate Fugu pufferfish. What it does have, is a very low LC0 and very long LT0 numbers. Only a little bit needs to get into your lungs, which unlike the pathway we observe in cigarettes, will stick around for a very long time, where it will eventually (on a long enough timeline) cause cancer. Exposure makes these numbers go up. 10% of asbestos mill workers die of mesothelioma, 2% of people who work with asbestos insulating boats and planes die of mesothelioma or related cancers - most within 5-20 years. If you're a smoker, the synergistic effects can further increase your risk of cancer by 90x(!). Other figures in other reports are a bit lower, but the panic was over the issue that there was no 'safe' dose of asbestos unlike with other toxins and no trivial environmental remediation. I only gave it a scan; happy to be corrected by someone more informed on the subject. [1] https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp61.pdf https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp61.pdf - since updated in 2001
- pottertheotter 6y ago
  Interesting info. Thanks! By the way, whatever happened with Lockitron? I backed it in 2012 and the device I received never really worked. Reached out and was told there was a fix coming but nothing ever happened. I've never backed any sort of crowdfunding since.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>is asbestos really that bad? Yes and no. There's a lot of other nastier industrial products. Asbestos is in the public consciousness as particularly bad because it was used widely before we know it reliably caused cancer. That said, it also reliably gives people cancer so it's bad reputation is not exactly undeserved.
purple_ferret 6y ago
All it takes to give you cancer is one asbestos fiber. Just has to punch through a lung cell and alter the DNA in just the right way. That said, the probability is low for any given fiber. There is asbestos in aftermarket break pads, meaning if you live in a major city, you probably breath in small amounts regularly.
- mypalmike 6y ago
  > All it takes to give you cancer is one asbestos fiber. This is oft repeated, but is there evidence that it is true? Are the statistical odds of getting cancer from asbestos really modeled on the risk that you will encounter a single particularly insidious individual fiber?
  - kristofferR 6y ago
    The issue is that the lungs doesn't always manage to clean the asbestos fibers at all, so some may be stuck in the lungs forever. One stuck fiber might lead to a cancer. It's very unlikely of course, but it could happen. A thousand stuck fibers are a thousand times more likely to cause cancer, but just one could still be enough to do it. With cigarettes for example it's different, since the self-cleaning process will clean and remove the remains of the cigarettes from the lungs fairly quickly unless the smoking is repeated over a long period of time and the system gets over-saturated and gradually breaks down.

t3rabytes 6y ago

My understanding is that it's only bad if disturbed and in the air. That's why popcorn ceilings, roof tiles, and insulation with asbestos is all "fine" and not mandated to be removed. But yes, the long-term effects are the real problem.

aspett 6y ago

Yes. Breathing it's fibers can cause serious disease and cancer. Asbestos was used as a common building material in New Zealand for insulation, roof tiles, ceiling tiles and texturing and more in the 1950-1990 period. If you do any renovation or changes that interact with asbestos, it basically has to be handled by a hazmat team. https://ehs.oregonstate.edu/asb-when https://ehs.oregonstate.edu/asb-when > When is Asbestos Dangerous?

liability 6y ago

I think it was particularly lethal to miners and factory workers. One of my great grandfathers died years after working in a factory that made mittens out of asbestos. Any process that disturbs the asbestos is going to be risky.

sandworm101 6y ago
The Navy. It was used to insulate pipes and stop fires from spreading. Ships are basically one giant confined space full of pipes and fire barriers.
- liability 6y ago
  It's sadly ironic that a fireproofing material meant to save lives has killed so many (a great deal more than it plausibly ever saved.)
  - dekhn 6y ago
    I don't know what the actual rates of lived saved by asbestos vs lives taken in. It's one of the classic risk evaluation problems: fires are big, scary and dramatic, people know who died in them, and so a tool that prevents it is welcome. On the other hand, asbestos being dangerous really only came into being after people noticed a pattern of increased early death in asbestos mining towns. We just don't process the risk of a statistically significant increase in early death, compared to the obvious risk of not using fire insulation.
    - dylan604 6y ago
      I like being able to stop my car when I hit the brake pedal. https://www.brakepartsinc.com/raybestos.html https://www.brakepartsinc.com/raybestos.html
    - liability 6y ago
      I don't have a citation for that claim but mesothelioma kills tens of thousands a year. I think it's a safe guess that asbestos fireproofing hasn't been saving that many lives, at least not per year.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Citation please.
- joezydeco 6y ago
  The first 40 floors of the World Trade Center, both towers, had every steel beam covered in asbestos. The collapse released 2,000 tons of fibers into the atmosphere on 9/11/01.

bjoli 6y ago

I lived in a house with an asbestos facade. As long as you don't need to change anything it is even better than bricks. Easier to clean. Fire safe. Doesn't age much in 50 years. They used it everywhere: facade, insulation, floor glue. If it breaks however, the fibers go everywhere, especially to your lungs where they stay. People working with it died of all kinds of problems, but mostly cancer in the lungs iirc.

sgt 6y ago
Also for asbestos roof - if it has been maintained and properly sealed once a decade or so, and is in good state, there is no reason to be worried. In that case it's actually much worse to remove it, and it is a great roofing material. However keep an eye on it if it shows signs of brittleness.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Exactly, it is the dust that is dangerous, not the bulk material. Avoid scratching, grinding, sanding, cutting, drilling and another kind of operation that turns some of the material into dust, especially airborne dust. Always wear a respirator when you have to work with it, always meticulously clean the area around it keep everybody (including pets!) out and if at all avoidable: simply don't touch it. There are companies that specialize in asbestos removal and safe work on it, it is one of the things I check for very carefully when looking at real estate. Finally, you find it in the most unexpected places. Floor coverings, roof coverings, liners, chimneys, stoves, ovens, as spray-on covering of steel beams and girders (and floor joists), the list if endless. If you don't know what you're looking at in an older building and it's gray stop until you are 100% sure that it isn't asbestos.

paulgerhardt 6y ago

Yes, but in insidious ways. In the era of Charlemagne, many other things would have had significantly higher micromorts. As a dinner guest, I would have enjoyed the show rather than headed for the doors. At a dinner party today? No way. According to the official CDC report which was used by the EPA to ban new uses of asbestos [1] the gist is that asbestos isn't a traditional poison. We measure most "poisons" in terms of Lethal Dose (LD50) or roughly paraphrased "how much of this would it take to kill 50% of subjects." We tend to think of something, like cyanide, as "very poisonous" if a small amount of something will kill you very quickly. But we measure lethality in other ways - "lethal concentration" (LC0 - whats the lowest concentration in air that has been observed to caused a fatality, LC50 at what concentration is 50% affected), lowest observed adverse affects level (will this mess you up like lead poisoning?), lethal time (LT0 - lowest amount of time observed to cause fatality, LT50 - time to cause fatality in 50% of population), and a host of others. Asbestos doesn't have an observed LD50 (at least not in that report). No one has died within a few hours of inhaling asbestos like they would if, say, they ate Fugu pufferfish. What it does have, is a very low LC0 and very long LT0 numbers. Only a little bit needs to get into your lungs, which unlike the pathway we observe in cigarettes, will stick around for a very long time, where it will eventually (on a long enough timeline) cause cancer. Exposure makes these numbers go up. 10% of asbestos mill workers die of mesothelioma, 2% of people who work with asbestos insulating boats and planes die of mesothelioma or related cancers - most within 5-20 years. If you're a smoker, the synergistic effects can further increase your risk of cancer by 90x(!). Other figures in other reports are a bit lower, but the panic was over the issue that there was no 'safe' dose of asbestos unlike with other toxins and no trivial environmental remediation. I only gave it a scan; happy to be corrected by someone more informed on the subject. [1] https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp61.pdf https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp61.pdf - since updated in 2001

pottertheotter 6y ago
Interesting info. Thanks! By the way, whatever happened with Lockitron? I backed it in 2012 and the device I received never really worked. Reached out and was told there was a fix coming but nothing ever happened. I've never backed any sort of crowdfunding since.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

>is asbestos really that bad? Yes and no. There's a lot of other nastier industrial products. Asbestos is in the public consciousness as particularly bad because it was used widely before we know it reliably caused cancer. That said, it also reliably gives people cancer so it's bad reputation is not exactly undeserved.

purple_ferret 6y ago

All it takes to give you cancer is one asbestos fiber. Just has to punch through a lung cell and alter the DNA in just the right way. That said, the probability is low for any given fiber. There is asbestos in aftermarket break pads, meaning if you live in a major city, you probably breath in small amounts regularly.

mypalmike 6y ago
> All it takes to give you cancer is one asbestos fiber. This is oft repeated, but is there evidence that it is true? Are the statistical odds of getting cancer from asbestos really modeled on the risk that you will encounter a single particularly insidious individual fiber?
- kristofferR 6y ago
  The issue is that the lungs doesn't always manage to clean the asbestos fibers at all, so some may be stuck in the lungs forever. One stuck fiber might lead to a cancer. It's very unlikely of course, but it could happen. A thousand stuck fibers are a thousand times more likely to cause cancer, but just one could still be enough to do it. With cigarettes for example it's different, since the self-cleaning process will clean and remove the remains of the cigarettes from the lungs fairly quickly unless the smoking is repeated over a long period of time and the system gets over-saturated and gradually breaks down.