16 ms·

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or the ridesharing businesses.

theroo 6y ago
This is a key point, well made.
piptastic 6y ago
I think they do allow them to set rates now in CA https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/
apsec112 6y ago
Uber and Lyft already did this in California after the passage of AB5 earlier this year. That's why they now have price estimates instead of giving exact values ahead of time.
- smsm42 6y ago
  So how that works in practice? One of the major advantages of Uber for me was fixed price upfront. So now I don't know the price until I order the ride? What if the driver sets an excessive price - can I decline the ride?
  - grandmczeb 6y ago
    See https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ My understanding is that the rider is presented with a range of possible fares before searching (e.g. $9-10). If they are matched with a driver asking for a higher fare than that range they have the option to decline.
    - coding123 6y ago
      So basically they will keep declining until they get the best price. It sounds like the proposed strategy is hogwash.
      - admax88q 6y ago
        Isn't that just supply and demand finding the market price for something?
      - chairmanwow1 6y ago
        I will use Uber and Lyft less because of this. I don’t really want to go through the process of negotiating the rate. This is much more tedious.
        grandmczeb 6y ago
        Do you live in CA? Because this has already been rolled out for a while. If you don’t, you don’t have to worry about it.
        jocker12 6y ago
        > you don’t have to worry about it. ...yet!
        mcguire 6y ago
        A market economy is indeed a pain.
      - grandmczeb 6y ago
        Who will keep declining? Drivers set their prices up front (they don’t even get requests outside of their price) and riders auto accept if it’s in the range they were shown.
- jkarneges 6y ago
  Indeed Uber allows drivers to set fares in California. I'm not sure if that's true of Lyft though? https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-to-Lyft-You-can-t-ride-with-us-on-15410954.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-to-Lyft-Yo...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- wwweston 6y ago
  Sounds like a positive impact of AB5?
mehrdadn 6y ago
> Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Does the model of IC have to imply that every ride is a new, independent contract? Is there no other reasonable model in which multiple rides are part of one contract? Why?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- wtallis 6y ago
  What would such a contract look like? How would Uber or Lyft hold up their end of a N-ride contract if they don't end up having enough riders that day?
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    > What would such a contract look like? The obvious answer: perhaps more similar to the way it looks like right now? I just don't see why IC implies "let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform".
    - kelnos 6y ago
      I don't think it directly implies that, but I think many of the policies in place chip away at things that should be a part of an IC's experience. Imposing penalties from declining rides means that their power to set rates is reduced.
- ttymck 6y ago
  What does the alternative look like? A contract for 10 rides? A contract for one week at a time? What if the driver wants to serve one ride, and then never again: what contract models allow that single ride to fulfill a "contract"?
  - Swizec 6y ago
    The alternative is traditionally called a retainer. You hire the contractor for “various tasks over a set period of time up to N tasks and at least M tasks” This is the indie version of being salaried. Very common among software engineers, for example.
bsimpson 6y ago
We expect eBay/Amazon/Etsy to enforce standards on their platforms, but no one would argue that their sellers are employees. I'm not convinced that having price and ride quality standards invalidates the contractor relationship.
- Dobbs 6y ago
  In all of your listed examples people set their own standards, list their own products, and set their own prices. I’m no way is it comparable.
- Retric 6y ago
  Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.
  - bgorman 6y ago
    This is just fundamentally wrong. As a kid I refereed soccer games. There was a set cost structure for each game depending on age group and whether I was assistant referee or center referee. There was a system where I could sign up in advance if I wanted the work or not. Uber drivers know exactly what they are getting into and they are free to quit at any time. I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an independent contractor who was able to work for multiple leagues if I wanted to and who was able to quit at any time. There is a fundamental role in society for temporary work. The employer will always set the price in any kind of business relationship. If I hire a contractor to remodel my house for 4 weeks does this mean he is a full time employee of mine and I need to provide him benefits. If he doesn't want the work, he doesn't need to be there.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Uber drivers know exactly what they are getting into and they are free to quit at any time. New Uber drivers don’t know what their pay will be. They can eventually keep a running average to get some idea, but that’s only meaningful as part of an ongoing relationship. Surge pricing seems like a benefit to the drivers, but as they can’t simply decline endless non surge prices that’s not an individual price negotiation. Essentially, their options are quit the platform or accept the vast majority of whatever is being handed to them.
sixothree 6y ago
Also, doesn't Lyft require drivers to have an Lyft sign on their car?
- pishpash 6y ago
  It's the government that requires a trade dress: https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/tncinfo/ https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/tncinfo/
strbean 6y ago
Regarding the whole declining rides thing... Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. With regards to unemployment insurance, this is really a hole in our safety net. Regardless of whether Uber drivers should be considered independent contractors, we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. The easiest way to allow drivers to set rates, and I'm not sure if there is some reason they haven't already done this, is to just let the driver tell the app their rate, so that they wouldn't even be offered rides below it (which naturally might mean they don't get as many), and the service would just give the ride to the driver in the area with the best rate. Obviously that would mean that if you set a lower rate you'd get more rides. > we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work. It's kind of non-applicable to the situation though, because when you have market pricing like this, you never really get put out of work, it's just that the amount you get paid may vary (and fall below the point where you seek other employment). Does Uber even do layoffs of contractors?
  - bhupy 6y ago
    Uber now lets drivers set their own rates, with a multiplier: https://therideshareguy.com/set-your-own-rates-uber-feature/ https://therideshareguy.com/set-your-own-rates-uber-feature/
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  > we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work. We have one age old solution for this problem. It's called savings.
manquer 6y ago
I understand that there is significant power disparity , however this is true for most contract gigs . If you turn down some projects and/or get back feedback most companies will give you less work . Consultants have to be really niche and highly skilled , hard to replace to be able to meaningfully negotiate their own terms .
ng12 6y ago
> Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform The independent contractor model works both ways. Uber has the right to avoid working with contractors who continually refuse work. You can't be picky about your work but also demand the company keep contracting you like you weren't. The independent contractor model doesn't map perfectly to gig work but it's much closer than traditional employees.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  The point of Uber's alleged model is that Uber is not employing the driver, but rather that it is simply matching up drivers to passengers as a marketplace. If that's the case, then Uber has no right to avoid working with contractors simply because they continually refuse work. That indicates a non-independent agency arrangement between Uber and the driver (aka "employee") and that's what they're claiming they don't have.
  - saalweachter 6y ago
    I think the one exception there is that you need to distinguish between people who don't take contracts and people who break contracts -- refusing to take a job is one thing, but if a driver frequently accepts a job then cancels it halfway through (eg, they are driving to the pickup and suddenly get offered a better job, on the competing platform), that is a horse of a different color.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    I disagree. Solely from the perspective of the person running the platform, it makes lots of sense to factor in "likelihood of accepting" into your driver selection algorithm. If I know driver X rejects all rides from a certain area, I'm going to stop showing them rides in that area. That way the user gets their driver faster.
    - Supermancho 6y ago
      > That way the user gets their driver faster. How is that relevant? If you are an agency, you are advertising availability both ways. If you filter on behavior, you are no longer acting as an independent agency but as an agent for one side. Disclosing pattern behavior (has rejected 12 rides this hour) is the correct way to provide value-add, not silently making decisions for parties.
brian_cloutier 6y ago
> these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or the ridesharing businesses. The state could also pay for it, through tax revenue. Unemployment insurance seems like a great fit for a government, since any kind of massive correlated unemployment, as we're experiencing now, would absolutely wipe out any private insurer.
- _jal 6y ago
  And that is the way it works, in functional countries. And I absolutely agree, divorcing healthcare from employment is the single best thing the US could do to help fix several different issues. But "We could massively restructure the US economy" is only an answer to "how should rideshare employees be classified" if you want to ensure nothing changes.
  - rayhendricks 6y ago
    More specifically we need to totally decouple health insurance from employment. This is not post-ww2 anymore. No more Cadillac plans from FAANG companies either unless your paying for it out of your own pocket. This would immediately solve half of the problems with healthcare in this country if everyone had to use the health insurance exchanges to buy insurance.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      My health care plan was better and cheaper when I was working for a 50 person company than it is at a FAANG. Then again, I work for the one that is all about “frugality”.... It’s not bad, but no better than my jobs before the last one.
  - cbmuser 6y ago
    > And that is the way it works, in functional countries. In Germany, neither health insurance nor unemployment insurance are paid through taxes. Both are deducted from your salary. It is true, however, that the government subsidizes the public health insurance so that low-income households can afford an insurance. Also, we have similar laws in Germany (and most European) countries like AB5 that prohibit misclassification of employees as independent contractors: > https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheinselbst%C3%A4ndigkeit https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheinselbst%C3%A4ndigkeit
smabie 6y ago
We know how to solve this problem:just use an order book or auction.
EpicEng 6y ago
>Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform... As a contractor I can set my rate, but the company can also simply not hire me. As a contractor I can act as I wish, but the company can terminate my contract. As a contractor, I pay for my unemployment insurance if I want it. So... What's the practical difference? How is this any different than someone who decides to make a living by selling goods on eBay?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jeffbee 6y ago
  If your contract can be terminated at any time without cause, that supports the notion that you're an employee, not a contractor. That's one of the aspects of the Borello test. https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    > If your contract can be terminated at any time without cause, that supports the notion that you're an employee, not a contractor. How interesting. That inverts expectations: you need a reason to fire a contractor but no reason to fire an employee. Ah, I see it: > Whether the employer has a right to fire at will or whether a termination gives rise to an action for breach of contract; and... You can't fire a contractor when you haven't written in end-of-contract terms in there. i.e. when you contract with someone and you say "I hire this person from time X to time Y for money Z for delivery of A" you can't just abort sometime in the middle and be like "welp! off you go then". However, it is perfectly reasonable for you to have exit clauses in your contracts to say that you pay per ride and that either party can exit the contract at any time. i.e. it determines whether the 'firing' is a breach-of-contract situation Okay, that makes sense, but it's not a factor in this case. Only a naïve reading makes it work that way but that won't work if you have the exit stipulations.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
kyle_martin1 6y ago
I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a main issue for the SuperShuttle because they couldn't get their drivers to do adapt when Uber came around, including accepting work that more resembled Uber pool workloads.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  This is what we call "revealed preference". It doesn't really matter what ten thousand Uber drivers have told you (and some of the supposed first-hand field surveying claimed in this discussion stretches belief). The only thing that matters in the end is how the participants in the market actually behave.
  - Nydhal 6y ago
    Actions > Words. Such a simple concept yet many ignore it. Nowadays it's trendy to call such concepts "mental models".
    - SQueeeeeL 6y ago
      True! I use this concept a lot when arguing with people about minimum wage! I think those single Mom's should be happy to have a job, not complaining they can't pay rent! Like they can just learn to code if they don't want to make min wage
      - BoorishBears 6y ago
        I can't tell if this is a joke or someone incredibly out of touch with the reality of poverty (this being HN, there are enough people who fall in the latter group to make it unclear)
ezoe 6y ago
In my country, it's illegal for the taxi driver to decline the customer unless it has valid reasons(the customer is violent or threatening, does not satisfy the hygiene standard, road is damaged etc). I think it's a fair regulation for it will casually lead to the discrimination. Also, in my country, being a taxi driver requires special license and certified car so Uber/Lyft doesn't offer the service. They don't want to pay the cost of checking if the contractor satisfy the requirements of license and car.
- icebraining 6y ago
  How is that regulation enforced?
  - ezoe 6y ago
    By the usual law system. Police find the suspects, send it to the prosecutor, the court, lawyer, judge and all.
    - icebraining 6y ago
      You're missing the part of getting evidence. Seems downright impossible to prove.
      - SubuSS 6y ago
        I believe it will go along the lines of a sting. Get enough complaints, send enough undercover cops on said bad rides (short routes / racial differences - whatever the drivers are being accused of) and get em.
        rrdharan 6y ago
        I was going to say there's no way there's police budget for this kind of enforcement in the US but I would've been wrong: https://gothamist.com/news/undercover-taxi-fare-investigation-unit https://gothamist.com/news/undercover-taxi-fare-investigatio...
ArkVark 6y ago
If politicians really want to improve things for the working class: then lower sales taxes, extend land taxes (remove loopholes), support and encourage higher-density housing (including rooming houses), ban sugar, stop legal and illegal immigration from low and moderate-HDI countries, legalise safe drugs, and decriminalise all other drugs.
prepend 6y ago
Independent contractors can’t set their own rates or decline jobs. FedEx uses independent contractors with established rates and requirements to carry. There are many independent contractors who can’t set rates or choose not to do parts of the job. Even my local barber shop co-op makes independent contractors have price ranges and doesn’t let them refuse walk ins if they are on duty. When I was an independent contractor I paid into unemployment insurance so all these Uber drivers should have unemployment insurance that they pay themselves.
- ta455634 6y ago
  I think the distinction is that Uber is claiming to facilitate a contract between the driver and the user. In your examples, not being allowed to refuse work (I would guess) was given as terms of the contract, whereas the argument against Uber is that Uber is setting the rates that drivers are allowed to use to enter into a contract and penalizing them for not entering into a contract. That said in the system where contracts are made between drivers and riders if a drivers accepts a ride and then cancels it that would be a breach of contract and I think Uber would be right to use that as a reason for delisting drivers from their marketplace.
  - prepend 6y ago
    Uber is the market maker, so it’s a three part contract. Between driver and rider; between driver and uber; between rider and uber. Part of the market making function is matching prices offered and taken. Theoretically Uber is chopping off all the drivers with too high a price and riders who want too low of a price and “forcing a rate” is really just matching all the compatible rates that fall into a close range (“the algorithm”). Maybe Uber could do more to show all the incompatible rates. But I think they delist drivers who would ask too high.
- cbmuser 6y ago
  > Independent contractors can’t set their own rates or decline jobs. Yes, they can. If not, they're not independent.
CryptoPunk 6y ago
How about things stay how they are, and drivers are treated as the contract they agreed to stipulates. Mandated employment benefits are a completely unjustifiable imposition on private contracts.
spsful 6y ago
I'd just like to add here that Uber is now allowing drivers to set rates.
- meowface 6y ago
  This comment definitely shouldn't stay buried. I wasn't aware Uber was doing this anywhere. If they are, that changes the debate.
matthewowen 6y ago
I am as skeptical about uber as anyone, but didn't they do this already in california? Riders can choose their own rates, which leads to users being offered a "closer but more expensive" option. They also got rid of the decline penalty iirc. https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-makes-major-changes-to-California-rides-as-14957326.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-makes-majo...
kortilla 6y ago
Independent contractors have the same pricing ability as drivers. They can’t force people to pay higher rates any more than a driver, they can just reject jobs that don’t pay enough. If you’re a plumber and you’re charging $1,000/hr, you’ll certainly be punished for your high prices and for rejecting work after you’ve already accepted (your public reviews on Yelp, etc will take a hit). “Real independent contractors” have much less power than you think in a competitive market.

theroo 6y ago

This is a key point, well made.

piptastic 6y ago

I think they do allow them to set rates now in CA https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/

apsec112 6y ago

Uber and Lyft already did this in California after the passage of AB5 earlier this year. That's why they now have price estimates instead of giving exact values ahead of time.

smsm42 6y ago
So how that works in practice? One of the major advantages of Uber for me was fixed price upfront. So now I don't know the price until I order the ride? What if the driver sets an excessive price - can I decline the ride?
- grandmczeb 6y ago
  See https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ My understanding is that the rider is presented with a range of possible fares before searching (e.g. $9-10). If they are matched with a driver asking for a higher fare than that range they have the option to decline.
  - coding123 6y ago
    So basically they will keep declining until they get the best price. It sounds like the proposed strategy is hogwash.
    - admax88q 6y ago
      Isn't that just supply and demand finding the market price for something?
    - chairmanwow1 6y ago
      I will use Uber and Lyft less because of this. I don’t really want to go through the process of negotiating the rate. This is much more tedious.
      - grandmczeb 6y ago
        Do you live in CA? Because this has already been rolled out for a while. If you don’t, you don’t have to worry about it.
        jocker12 6y ago
        > you don’t have to worry about it. ...yet!
      - mcguire 6y ago
        A market economy is indeed a pain.
    - grandmczeb 6y ago
      Who will keep declining? Drivers set their prices up front (they don’t even get requests outside of their price) and riders auto accept if it’s in the range they were shown.
jkarneges 6y ago
Indeed Uber allows drivers to set fares in California. I'm not sure if that's true of Lyft though? https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-to-Lyft-You-can-t-ride-with-us-on-15410954.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-to-Lyft-Yo...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
wwweston 6y ago
Sounds like a positive impact of AB5?

mehrdadn 6y ago

> Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Does the model of IC have to imply that every ride is a new, independent contract? Is there no other reasonable model in which multiple rides are part of one contract? Why?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
wtallis 6y ago
What would such a contract look like? How would Uber or Lyft hold up their end of a N-ride contract if they don't end up having enough riders that day?
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  > What would such a contract look like? The obvious answer: perhaps more similar to the way it looks like right now? I just don't see why IC implies "let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform".
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I don't think it directly implies that, but I think many of the policies in place chip away at things that should be a part of an IC's experience. Imposing penalties from declining rides means that their power to set rates is reduced.
ttymck 6y ago
What does the alternative look like? A contract for 10 rides? A contract for one week at a time? What if the driver wants to serve one ride, and then never again: what contract models allow that single ride to fulfill a "contract"?
- Swizec 6y ago
  The alternative is traditionally called a retainer. You hire the contractor for “various tasks over a set period of time up to N tasks and at least M tasks” This is the indie version of being salaried. Very common among software engineers, for example.

bsimpson 6y ago

We expect eBay/Amazon/Etsy to enforce standards on their platforms, but no one would argue that their sellers are employees. I'm not convinced that having price and ride quality standards invalidates the contractor relationship.

Dobbs 6y ago
In all of your listed examples people set their own standards, list their own products, and set their own prices. I’m no way is it comparable.
Retric 6y ago
Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.
- bgorman 6y ago
  This is just fundamentally wrong. As a kid I refereed soccer games. There was a set cost structure for each game depending on age group and whether I was assistant referee or center referee. There was a system where I could sign up in advance if I wanted the work or not. Uber drivers know exactly what they are getting into and they are free to quit at any time. I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an independent contractor who was able to work for multiple leagues if I wanted to and who was able to quit at any time. There is a fundamental role in society for temporary work. The employer will always set the price in any kind of business relationship. If I hire a contractor to remodel my house for 4 weeks does this mean he is a full time employee of mine and I need to provide him benefits. If he doesn't want the work, he doesn't need to be there.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Uber drivers know exactly what they are getting into and they are free to quit at any time. New Uber drivers don’t know what their pay will be. They can eventually keep a running average to get some idea, but that’s only meaningful as part of an ongoing relationship. Surge pricing seems like a benefit to the drivers, but as they can’t simply decline endless non surge prices that’s not an individual price negotiation. Essentially, their options are quit the platform or accept the vast majority of whatever is being handed to them.

sixothree 6y ago

Also, doesn't Lyft require drivers to have an Lyft sign on their car?

pishpash 6y ago
It's the government that requires a trade dress: https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/tncinfo/ https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/tncinfo/

strbean 6y ago

Regarding the whole declining rides thing... Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. With regards to unemployment insurance, this is really a hole in our safety net. Regardless of whether Uber drivers should be considered independent contractors, we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. The easiest way to allow drivers to set rates, and I'm not sure if there is some reason they haven't already done this, is to just let the driver tell the app their rate, so that they wouldn't even be offered rides below it (which naturally might mean they don't get as many), and the service would just give the ride to the driver in the area with the best rate. Obviously that would mean that if you set a lower rate you'd get more rides. > we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work. It's kind of non-applicable to the situation though, because when you have market pricing like this, you never really get put out of work, it's just that the amount you get paid may vary (and fall below the point where you seek other employment). Does Uber even do layoffs of contractors?
- bhupy 6y ago
  Uber now lets drivers set their own rates, with a multiplier: https://therideshareguy.com/set-your-own-rates-uber-feature/ https://therideshareguy.com/set-your-own-rates-uber-feature/
perryizgr8 6y ago
> we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work. We have one age old solution for this problem. It's called savings.

manquer 6y ago

I understand that there is significant power disparity , however this is true for most contract gigs . If you turn down some projects and/or get back feedback most companies will give you less work . Consultants have to be really niche and highly skilled , hard to replace to be able to meaningfully negotiate their own terms .

ng12 6y ago

> Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform The independent contractor model works both ways. Uber has the right to avoid working with contractors who continually refuse work. You can't be picky about your work but also demand the company keep contracting you like you weren't. The independent contractor model doesn't map perfectly to gig work but it's much closer than traditional employees.

gamblor956 6y ago
The point of Uber's alleged model is that Uber is not employing the driver, but rather that it is simply matching up drivers to passengers as a marketplace. If that's the case, then Uber has no right to avoid working with contractors simply because they continually refuse work. That indicates a non-independent agency arrangement between Uber and the driver (aka "employee") and that's what they're claiming they don't have.
- saalweachter 6y ago
  I think the one exception there is that you need to distinguish between people who don't take contracts and people who break contracts -- refusing to take a job is one thing, but if a driver frequently accepts a job then cancels it halfway through (eg, they are driving to the pickup and suddenly get offered a better job, on the competing platform), that is a horse of a different color.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  I disagree. Solely from the perspective of the person running the platform, it makes lots of sense to factor in "likelihood of accepting" into your driver selection algorithm. If I know driver X rejects all rides from a certain area, I'm going to stop showing them rides in that area. That way the user gets their driver faster.
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    > That way the user gets their driver faster. How is that relevant? If you are an agency, you are advertising availability both ways. If you filter on behavior, you are no longer acting as an independent agency but as an agent for one side. Disclosing pattern behavior (has rejected 12 rides this hour) is the correct way to provide value-add, not silently making decisions for parties.

brian_cloutier 6y ago

> these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or the ridesharing businesses. The state could also pay for it, through tax revenue. Unemployment insurance seems like a great fit for a government, since any kind of massive correlated unemployment, as we're experiencing now, would absolutely wipe out any private insurer.

_jal 6y ago
And that is the way it works, in functional countries. And I absolutely agree, divorcing healthcare from employment is the single best thing the US could do to help fix several different issues. But "We could massively restructure the US economy" is only an answer to "how should rideshare employees be classified" if you want to ensure nothing changes.
- rayhendricks 6y ago
  More specifically we need to totally decouple health insurance from employment. This is not post-ww2 anymore. No more Cadillac plans from FAANG companies either unless your paying for it out of your own pocket. This would immediately solve half of the problems with healthcare in this country if everyone had to use the health insurance exchanges to buy insurance.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    My health care plan was better and cheaper when I was working for a 50 person company than it is at a FAANG. Then again, I work for the one that is all about “frugality”.... It’s not bad, but no better than my jobs before the last one.
- cbmuser 6y ago
  > And that is the way it works, in functional countries. In Germany, neither health insurance nor unemployment insurance are paid through taxes. Both are deducted from your salary. It is true, however, that the government subsidizes the public health insurance so that low-income households can afford an insurance. Also, we have similar laws in Germany (and most European) countries like AB5 that prohibit misclassification of employees as independent contractors: > https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheinselbst%C3%A4ndigkeit https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheinselbst%C3%A4ndigkeit

smabie 6y ago

We know how to solve this problem:just use an order book or auction.

EpicEng 6y ago

>Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform... As a contractor I can set my rate, but the company can also simply not hire me. As a contractor I can act as I wish, but the company can terminate my contract. As a contractor, I pay for my unemployment insurance if I want it. So... What's the practical difference? How is this any different than someone who decides to make a living by selling goods on eBay?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jeffbee 6y ago
If your contract can be terminated at any time without cause, that supports the notion that you're an employee, not a contractor. That's one of the aspects of the Borello test. https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm
- renewiltord 6y ago
  > If your contract can be terminated at any time without cause, that supports the notion that you're an employee, not a contractor. How interesting. That inverts expectations: you need a reason to fire a contractor but no reason to fire an employee. Ah, I see it: > Whether the employer has a right to fire at will or whether a termination gives rise to an action for breach of contract; and... You can't fire a contractor when you haven't written in end-of-contract terms in there. i.e. when you contract with someone and you say "I hire this person from time X to time Y for money Z for delivery of A" you can't just abort sometime in the middle and be like "welp! off you go then". However, it is perfectly reasonable for you to have exit clauses in your contracts to say that you pay per ride and that either party can exit the contract at any time. i.e. it determines whether the 'firing' is a breach-of-contract situation Okay, that makes sense, but it's not a factor in this case. Only a naïve reading makes it work that way but that won't work if you have the exit stipulations.
  - jeffbee 6y ago

kyle_martin1 6y ago

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a main issue for the SuperShuttle because they couldn't get their drivers to do adapt when Uber came around, including accepting work that more resembled Uber pool workloads.

jeffbee 6y ago
This is what we call "revealed preference". It doesn't really matter what ten thousand Uber drivers have told you (and some of the supposed first-hand field surveying claimed in this discussion stretches belief). The only thing that matters in the end is how the participants in the market actually behave.
- Nydhal 6y ago
  Actions > Words. Such a simple concept yet many ignore it. Nowadays it's trendy to call such concepts "mental models".
  - SQueeeeeL 6y ago
    True! I use this concept a lot when arguing with people about minimum wage! I think those single Mom's should be happy to have a job, not complaining they can't pay rent! Like they can just learn to code if they don't want to make min wage
    - BoorishBears 6y ago
      I can't tell if this is a joke or someone incredibly out of touch with the reality of poverty (this being HN, there are enough people who fall in the latter group to make it unclear)

ezoe 6y ago

In my country, it's illegal for the taxi driver to decline the customer unless it has valid reasons(the customer is violent or threatening, does not satisfy the hygiene standard, road is damaged etc). I think it's a fair regulation for it will casually lead to the discrimination. Also, in my country, being a taxi driver requires special license and certified car so Uber/Lyft doesn't offer the service. They don't want to pay the cost of checking if the contractor satisfy the requirements of license and car.

icebraining 6y ago
How is that regulation enforced?
- ezoe 6y ago
  By the usual law system. Police find the suspects, send it to the prosecutor, the court, lawyer, judge and all.
  - icebraining 6y ago
    You're missing the part of getting evidence. Seems downright impossible to prove.
    - SubuSS 6y ago
      I believe it will go along the lines of a sting. Get enough complaints, send enough undercover cops on said bad rides (short routes / racial differences - whatever the drivers are being accused of) and get em.
      - rrdharan 6y ago
        I was going to say there's no way there's police budget for this kind of enforcement in the US but I would've been wrong: https://gothamist.com/news/undercover-taxi-fare-investigation-unit https://gothamist.com/news/undercover-taxi-fare-investigatio...

ArkVark 6y ago

If politicians really want to improve things for the working class: then lower sales taxes, extend land taxes (remove loopholes), support and encourage higher-density housing (including rooming houses), ban sugar, stop legal and illegal immigration from low and moderate-HDI countries, legalise safe drugs, and decriminalise all other drugs.

prepend 6y ago

Independent contractors can’t set their own rates or decline jobs. FedEx uses independent contractors with established rates and requirements to carry. There are many independent contractors who can’t set rates or choose not to do parts of the job. Even my local barber shop co-op makes independent contractors have price ranges and doesn’t let them refuse walk ins if they are on duty. When I was an independent contractor I paid into unemployment insurance so all these Uber drivers should have unemployment insurance that they pay themselves.

ta455634 6y ago
I think the distinction is that Uber is claiming to facilitate a contract between the driver and the user. In your examples, not being allowed to refuse work (I would guess) was given as terms of the contract, whereas the argument against Uber is that Uber is setting the rates that drivers are allowed to use to enter into a contract and penalizing them for not entering into a contract. That said in the system where contracts are made between drivers and riders if a drivers accepts a ride and then cancels it that would be a breach of contract and I think Uber would be right to use that as a reason for delisting drivers from their marketplace.
- prepend 6y ago
  Uber is the market maker, so it’s a three part contract. Between driver and rider; between driver and uber; between rider and uber. Part of the market making function is matching prices offered and taken. Theoretically Uber is chopping off all the drivers with too high a price and riders who want too low of a price and “forcing a rate” is really just matching all the compatible rates that fall into a close range (“the algorithm”). Maybe Uber could do more to show all the incompatible rates. But I think they delist drivers who would ask too high.
cbmuser 6y ago
> Independent contractors can’t set their own rates or decline jobs. Yes, they can. If not, they're not independent.

CryptoPunk 6y ago

How about things stay how they are, and drivers are treated as the contract they agreed to stipulates. Mandated employment benefits are a completely unjustifiable imposition on private contracts.

spsful 6y ago

I'd just like to add here that Uber is now allowing drivers to set rates.

meowface 6y ago
This comment definitely shouldn't stay buried. I wasn't aware Uber was doing this anywhere. If they are, that changes the debate.

matthewowen 6y ago

I am as skeptical about uber as anyone, but didn't they do this already in california? Riders can choose their own rates, which leads to users being offered a "closer but more expensive" option. They also got rid of the decline penalty iirc. https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-makes-major-changes-to-California-rides-as-14957326.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-makes-majo...

kortilla 6y ago

Independent contractors have the same pricing ability as drivers. They can’t force people to pay higher rates any more than a driver, they can just reject jobs that don’t pay enough. If you’re a plumber and you’re charging $1,000/hr, you’ll certainly be punished for your high prices and for rejecting work after you’ve already accepted (your public reviews on Yelp, etc will take a hit). “Real independent contractors” have much less power than you think in a competitive market.