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Apologies for the extreme swearing that ensues. Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists

Apologies for the extreme swearing that ensues. Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists. So what if Epic is big. Really, seriously shouldn't we have had alternative app stores available form the official ones. Why is this even a point of debate? All the time we hear stories of people one of our own getting fucked by these app stores and their lordship and now that we have an opportunity to make some noise, this is the response? Fuck that. Maybe we deserve these lords. Fuck your security and fuck your walled gardens. Fucking no alternative browser allowed. Fuck that, fuck you apple and fuck you google. Fuck your monopoly and chokehold on the devs.

calimac 6y ago
Why not sign this with your username
blunderkid 6y ago
fuck yeah brother.
banachtarski 6y ago
I'm sure the mods won't take kindly to your swearing but I agree with both you and your sentiment 100%
wmichelin 6y ago
I'm right with you. This is much worse than what Microsoft got in trouble for many years ago. They know what they're doing in wrong and I sure hope Epic gets their day in court. It's predatory and anti-consumer. Apple can eat shit.
- throwaway6000 6y ago
  Fortnite for Android just got axed from the Google Play Store too https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/13/fortnite-android-google-kicked-out/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/13/fortnite-android-google-ki... Oops! Apple Bad, Google Good? ;)
  - dannyw 6y ago
    Google Bad, Apple Worse. At least you can get other app stores on Android.
    - throwaway6000 6y ago
      How about Epic WRONG?
    - Bombthecat 6y ago
      I expect an elic store on android soon.. And they might have a chance! Fortnite will pull in a lot of people!
      - virgilp 6y ago
        That's an interesting question. Couldn't they distribute a "Fortnite loader" through Play store? Since Fortnite is free-to-play, the loader wouldn't charge anything, so it wouldn't technically violate any policy. Seems like an interesting workaround to avoid giving Google the paycut.
        lern_too_spel 6y ago
        Unfortunately, the Play Store has a policy that prevents publishers from distributing competing app stores via the Play Store.
        virgilp 6y ago
        But what if you distribute "Fortnite"? Free to play, no premium functionality, free "upgrade" - except that the upgrade is from outside the app store. And once you get it, you can start paying for stuff. I don't think this qualifies as "an app store", since it's not an app store/ you can't download other applications from it (just the premium version of this one).
  - deleted 6y ago
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throwaway6000 6y ago
1. Apple establishes rules that EVERY app publisher follows for YEARS. 2. Fortnite doesn't follow rule. 3. Apple kicks Fortnite out of the App store. What were they expecting?
- lostlogin 6y ago
  An exemption like the other big players got. The carefully crafted rules are re-written for the powerful.
- throwaway140820 6y ago
  I don't give a fuck about Epic. Let's get alternative app stores be present in the default app stores on my device. What are you even complaining about? I am on your side, are you on your side?
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for. Plenty of commenters are expressing views similar to yours without breaking the site guidelines. If you'd please read them and stick to the rules, we'd be grateful. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jhardy54 6y ago
  They were expecting to get kicked out of the app store so that they could file a lawsuit and challenge the app store monopoly. How is that unclear?
  - throwaway6000 6y ago
    app store "monopoly"? No one's forcing you to use the Apple ecosystem. it's called Android.
    - ben-schaaf 6y ago
      Where you're pretty much stuck google play store, which has also banned the app... There is side-loading, but there's a lot of friction there that I wouldn't expect normal users to withstand.
popeathlete 6y ago
Epic is no better. Trading one owner for another makes no difference in the best case. It's either free and open source and user-focused or nothing.
- throwaway140820 6y ago
  So if Epic wins, will Epic be able to stop other stores from coming up? In what scenario do you see US (you, me, we) winning? The one where Epic loses or one where it wins?
  - popeathlete 6y ago
    There's no win for us here. Just corporate bullshit.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Well, Epic pulls games from other stores and they make exclusive deals, so yes, they actually can stop other stores from coming up through indirect means.
- bitL 6y ago
  It's like with politics - you vote for the polarizing person that would eat the other ones so that there can't be a lasting consensus disadvantaging some group permanently. Politicians need to be at each other's throats and never sure about anything to minimize the damage they would do otherwise.
msh 6y ago
Why does epic single out two platforms and not also sue Microsoft (Xbox), Sony and Nintendo. Seems like double standards to me.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  Much harder to win against them. Depending on how this goes, they're probably next.
- throwaway140820 6y ago
  Can we please have a precedent set, once that starts I am confident other walled gardens will come down too. Also gaming consoles are not an essential part of life, at least not in my country where people usually can't afford to indulge in those luxuries.
  - etchalon 6y ago
    Android sort of proves that walled gardens won't come down. And Epic's lawsuit(s!) aren't about brining those gardens down. They're about Epic, and other developers, getting absolute control over their place in that garden. They don't care that the walled garden exists. They're just angry about the cost of the manure.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Why is an iPhone an essential part of life? Gaming consoles are cheaper than iPhones and you can often order previous gen Consoles like the 3DS directly from Nintendo's online store for an even lower price.
- gpm 6y ago
  Because those are the platforms they have standing on I assume. Did Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo perform similar anti-competitive actions against Epic Games? They can't sue just because they have an illegal policy, they also need to have been "personally" (as a company) affected by it. They also have limited amounts of money, and lawsuits are expensive. Better to get precedent established first before suing everyone else (I'm actually surprised that they picked two fights because of this).
staunch 6y ago
These people must also have no idea what Tim Sweeney (Epic founder) is like as a person. This guy is a genius programmer that never sought great wealth for its own sake but happened upon it through creating huge amounts of value and happiness in the world. He's someone who has been preserving wilderness by buying up large swaths of land to keep it safe. He's a good and principled person. He's NOT a money-grubbing two-faced CEO. He's the real deal and he clearly believes that what Apple and Google are doing is wrong. He's also willing to put his money where his mouth is, unlike anyone else. He deserves to be lauded and respected for what he's doing here. Someone has to stand up to Apple and Google and he's the only one putting in the time, effort, and money to do it. Tim Sweeney is the hero of this story and everyone should be backing him up. And in the grand scheme of things, users would be much better off without being restricted to app stores. The era of closed devices ought to be ended by laws. Running arbitrary software on personal computing devices should be protected by Right to Repair or Fair Use laws.
- camhart 6y ago
  I would like to learn more about Tim. Any suggestions?
- mindentropy 6y ago
  Good that you mentioned Tim Sweeney. He is someone I look upto because his work does a lot of talking. Fantastic programmer. I really wish the old world game engine programmers unite and support him such as Carmack, Romero etc.
jacobsenscott 6y ago
I truly believe apple pays people to comb through HN and down vote any comment critical of apple. The simple fact is that apple has done more than any other company in the history of computing to quash the freedom to control your own computing devices. It is impossible to fight apple in the way we fought microsoft years ago - by building out a good opensource ecosystem. The entire reason for the app store is to stop that from happening.
- staunch 6y ago
  HN's great flaw is that it has been allowed to be overrun by huge numbers of people from large organizations. There are tens of thousands of people from FAANG/YC acting as self-interested agents of their organizations without any kind of disclosure or counter-measures. These are, in effect, massive voting rings and propaganda efforts which are supposedly not allowed on HN. It's obvious how this results in the total dominance of FAANG/YC content, and how it skews the public conversation in Silicon Valley in their favor. HN could take a variety of counter-measures but they don't. Maybe because users would quickly point out the hypocrisy of ending FAANG voting rings/propaganda while permitting the YC voting rings/propaganda. HN is now the premier mouthpiece for tech corporate interests. It would be great for the world if someone were to create a replacement that was designed to prevent this problem, while preserving what is good about HN. Or if HN took action even if it was 5+ years late.
  - noahth 6y ago
    Many have tried. There's a simple reason that you glance at but don't directly confront in your post. The "voting rings" you outline are actually a huge constituency, thanks to the outlandish concentration of wealth and resources in the hands of these few companies (I mean FAANG - YC has a huge and unique network but I don't suspsect it's anywhere close to the same scale in dollars or current employees). No site can keep out so many skilled and knowledgeable techies and expect to keep up the level of quality that HN provides. This is one of those cases where culture flows pretty clearly from material reality - you can't have a better site until the titans are dethroned and dismembered. So, if you want a better HN, don't build an HN clone! Build political power that will target monopolies, monopsonies, and anything "too big to fail" for levelling and redistribution.
submeta 6y ago
> Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists. I am wondering if Apple pays a battery of social media / marketing guys to influence the discussions in their favor. Now let the downvotes begin.
dj_mc_merlin 6y ago
Preach.
spanhandler 6y ago
> Fuck your security and fuck your walled gardens. Sigh. I guess we're going to remove a product category (the relatively safe, very consistent, managed platform you can use when you just want to use a computer and not also manage a computer) and call that consumer choice, then? I'd prefer instead that more companies make something similarly-nice and compete with Apple. I have lots and lots of options I can use if I want to have to worry about a bunch of silly stuff like "will this .exe or 3rd-party repo pwn me?" or "is this payment prompt fake?" when I'm just trying to play the piano, make art, track recipes, balance my books, or whatever. I use them all the time, in fact. When I don't want to worry about that crap I use iOS. It's nice having any option in that category. I do not want to go back to having zero of them. I don't care that 3rd party browsers on it have to render with the WebKit engine. Not even a little.
- throwaway140820 6y ago
  I am sorry, I don't understand. Will you be suddenly forced to install all the shit from all the sources? Nobody is forcing you right? How does your position change with the new one? Are you arguing having firefox and ublock on iphone will suddenly make it more pleasant to browse the web and you don't like it? I am sure you are not.
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    > I am sorry, I don't understand. Will you be suddenly forced to install all the shit from all the sources? Nobody is forcing you right? How does your position change with the new one? No, but it may mean some apps will use different payment prompts & systems, different cancellation systems for subscriptions, have different return policies, and so on, and it may mean that sometimes an app I want requires me to either go sign up on another app store or else not use the app, while right now 100% of apps on the platform are on one store, so that is never an issue. If I want to deal with that mental overhead and risk I can go use my PC. I have options if I want that experience. I don't on my phone and tablets. > Are you arguing having firefox and ublock on iphone will suddenly make it more pleasant to browse the web and you don't like it? I am sure you are not. Effectively every site works alright in Safari. It has to. It might not anymore if Google can banner-ad enough of the iOS ecosystem onto Chrome using their own renderer instead of Webkit. My kindergartener's school iPad won't come with some cheaply-made app marketed to schools that contains an entire web engine (makes cross-platform easier, don't you know) that has a bug that lets it access the open web, bypassing the OS web controls. It can't, because if it uses a webview it has to use Webkit, which obeys the OS settings. That's a good thing. For that matter half the apps on the app store aren't the mobile equivalent of Electron, shipping with an entire browser on board, for the same reason of developer convenience, wasting my disk space and killing my battery, because they're simply not allowed to do that. Again, good thing. I don't want to have to try to figure out the damn stack an app was built on before clicking "buy". It's bad enough they let React Native and Phonegap and such through the review process. I wish they didn't. I don't know how it's so hard to understand that the locking down is a feature to many users. I want more devices that do that. Everyone worries about some dark future of only locked-down devices but here I am annoyed that there's a monopoly on those, while I've got a ton of options for my other computing needs. If I want a safe, low-maintenance, but still highly-capable machine for some non-tech-nerd in my life, which they'll be able to use pretty well totally independently, I have one option. That sucks.
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tommilukkarinen 6y ago
I was asked today, something with the lines: "Why don't you organize and fight? Why don't you build an open ecosystem, which you will use to replace stores." I was thinking after that a) we could make a store (that's the simple part) b) when enough of us were behind we could pressure for it to be accepted Because even if Epic wins and we can have some improvements, it wont fix the issues I would donate and work for the cause, what about the rest of you? How to get started, Apache Foundation? EDIT: I have to add, I would not work for this 'because it is the right thing to do', but to ensure that I can do business in the future without fear of A+G
- jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
  Basically we have to lobby the government to undo decades of case law going back to the late 90s and make it illegal for companies to run vertically integrated monopolies. That's the work. You ready for that? No. We cant just slink off into IRC and build our own store. We cant just do The Right Thing, we also have to make the Wrong Thing prohibitively expensive for the general population.
mvn9 6y ago
No, we shouldn't have had an alternative app store on iphones. Apple doesn't have a monopoly. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy an iphone to get online and make calls. If you start a company, and you have 50% market share [1], do you want to be treated like a monopoly? In a free market, Apple should be allowed to operate however they see fit, as long as they don't have a monopoly. Of course it is annoying that they can demand that much, but that's how open markets work. All those developers who want better conditions on an app store, nobody is preventing them from joining their forces and creating a better operating system that promotes their own store with more favourable conditions. Android is a sitting duck. Take objective c, the bsd kernel and the openstep libraries and link them up to your own mobile operating system. As long as Oracle doesn't win against Google, it can even have the same api as ios and thus all the existing apps from the apple app store. At first, offer it as a ROM for android devices, then start making your own. Apple's devices are expensive. Customers will love to buy cheaper alternatives. Judging by the upvotes of this story alone, there should be 1000 developers wanting to have their own app store. If half of them invest some time of their life to create a new objective c operating system, they should have something operational in a year or two. Most likely much faster than the legal proceedings that could create a second app store on ios, with the nice benefit of being in control of the process. [1] Research into Android vs iOS market share in the US shows that the market leader remains Google Android, with a 51.1% market share in June 2019. https://leftronic.com/android-vs-ios-market-share/ https://leftronic.com/android-vs-ios-market-share/
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Via the FTC[0]: > Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors. That is how that term is used here: a "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power. [0] https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
  - mvn9 6y ago
Accacin 6y ago
Correct. For me there are valid arguments for a walled garden (providing users can opt out) but this isn’t about any of that. This is about Apple not getting paid, the users are not ‘winning’ in this standoff. Apple are prepared to fuck over their users for them not getting paid, and I can’t see a good argument for anyone thinking that this is okay.
thdrdt 6y ago
Update policies on Android (I want to use my phone until it is completely broken) made me start to look at Apple. But then I realized it is not an alternative. In another thread someone compared Apple with a dictatorship and this is right. Maybe you will feel safe but there is no freedom. And when you don't do as the dictator pleases you are in trouble. Companies get too big and too powerful. Some say this is the beginning of a new world order, like the industrial revolution changed how the world was ordered.
eanzenberg 6y ago
Don’t force shit onto every Apple user. One app store is for security and privacy. Apple curates and that costs money. I don’t want my and my families and friend’s ios devices turning into the pile of hot garbage android devices. If you don’t like it, leave! Or make your own device to sell!
- mhh__ 6y ago
  > or make your own device to sell Bordering on bad faith.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    When you buy an Apple device you are supporting Apple and their restrictive platform. Why on earth would you buy an Apple device if you disagree with that?
abc-xyz 6y ago
I think the timing is very unfortunate. Shortly after Trump’s executive order targeting Tencent and ByteDance (hopefully with more to come) then Epic (heavily backed by Tencent) launch an attack against Apple. Tinfoil hat on: Apple is probably worried that if Trump gets re-elected then they would be forced out of the Chinese market unless they allow third-party app stores where people can download the Chinese apps that Trump would force them to remove. Apple will therefore opt to allow third-party app installations (which would hurt them a lot if we ignored the Chinese market) rather than lowering their fees or allowing third-party payment providers.
PakG1 6y ago
Epic being big is possibly the only reason why they had the balls to pull the trigger on this whole thing. Can't imagine indies doing it, not enough money and power. Gotta take fights you can handle.
- TakakiTohno 6y ago
  Agreed. I applaud Epic for taking this stance. Of course, they are likely doing it for their own interests. However, this fight can help all the indie developers who don't have the lawyers or the money to stand up, and hopefully lower the amount that Google Play and Apple take from hard-working devs that upload apps to their platform.
aero-glide 6y ago
I was very depressed over the last few months because I thought there is no one left who will stand against these big companies. Reading hackernews comments was very depressing since everyone was defending Apple. That changed today, after reading this thread. Looks like there is some hope left. Thanks for voicing your opinion, it makes me feel better for the future.
205guy 6y ago
Fine: fuck you all you greedy devs who can't understand that the platform exists only because of Apple investment in security and usability and fuck all you scummy devs who want to collect all my contacts and location info and sell it to spammers, and probably my microphone and camera and sell it to blackmailers. Yeah, fuck them too. Thank you, that was cathartic.
throwaway140820 6y ago
For some reason this is no longer the top post in the submission.
- dang 6y ago
  We moderate top posts when they break the site guidelines, such as by being unsubstantive rants. Please don't fulminate on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (No, we don't care one way or another about Apple. We just care about HN.)
allarm 6y ago
Couldn’t agree more. Also fuck you for writing it from a throwaway account.

calimac 6y ago

Why not sign this with your username

blunderkid 6y ago

fuck yeah brother.

banachtarski 6y ago

I'm sure the mods won't take kindly to your swearing but I agree with both you and your sentiment 100%

wmichelin 6y ago

I'm right with you. This is much worse than what Microsoft got in trouble for many years ago. They know what they're doing in wrong and I sure hope Epic gets their day in court. It's predatory and anti-consumer. Apple can eat shit.

throwaway6000 6y ago
Fortnite for Android just got axed from the Google Play Store too https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/13/fortnite-android-google-kicked-out/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/13/fortnite-android-google-ki... Oops! Apple Bad, Google Good? ;)
- dannyw 6y ago
  Google Bad, Apple Worse. At least you can get other app stores on Android.
  - throwaway6000 6y ago
    How about Epic WRONG?
  - Bombthecat 6y ago
    I expect an elic store on android soon.. And they might have a chance! Fortnite will pull in a lot of people!
    - virgilp 6y ago
      That's an interesting question. Couldn't they distribute a "Fortnite loader" through Play store? Since Fortnite is free-to-play, the loader wouldn't charge anything, so it wouldn't technically violate any policy. Seems like an interesting workaround to avoid giving Google the paycut.
      - lern_too_spel 6y ago
        Unfortunately, the Play Store has a policy that prevents publishers from distributing competing app stores via the Play Store.
        virgilp 6y ago
        But what if you distribute "Fortnite"? Free to play, no premium functionality, free "upgrade" - except that the upgrade is from outside the app store. And once you get it, you can start paying for stuff. I don't think this qualifies as "an app store", since it's not an app store/ you can't download other applications from it (just the premium version of this one).
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throwaway6000 6y ago

1. Apple establishes rules that EVERY app publisher follows for YEARS. 2. Fortnite doesn't follow rule. 3. Apple kicks Fortnite out of the App store. What were they expecting?

lostlogin 6y ago
An exemption like the other big players got. The carefully crafted rules are re-written for the powerful.
throwaway140820 6y ago
I don't give a fuck about Epic. Let's get alternative app stores be present in the default app stores on my device. What are you even complaining about? I am on your side, are you on your side?
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for. Plenty of commenters are expressing views similar to yours without breaking the site guidelines. If you'd please read them and stick to the rules, we'd be grateful. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jhardy54 6y ago
They were expecting to get kicked out of the app store so that they could file a lawsuit and challenge the app store monopoly. How is that unclear?
- throwaway6000 6y ago
  app store "monopoly"? No one's forcing you to use the Apple ecosystem. it's called Android.
  - ben-schaaf 6y ago
    Where you're pretty much stuck google play store, which has also banned the app... There is side-loading, but there's a lot of friction there that I wouldn't expect normal users to withstand.

popeathlete 6y ago

Epic is no better. Trading one owner for another makes no difference in the best case. It's either free and open source and user-focused or nothing.

throwaway140820 6y ago
So if Epic wins, will Epic be able to stop other stores from coming up? In what scenario do you see US (you, me, we) winning? The one where Epic loses or one where it wins?
- popeathlete 6y ago
  There's no win for us here. Just corporate bullshit.
- imtringued 6y ago
  Well, Epic pulls games from other stores and they make exclusive deals, so yes, they actually can stop other stores from coming up through indirect means.
bitL 6y ago
It's like with politics - you vote for the polarizing person that would eat the other ones so that there can't be a lasting consensus disadvantaging some group permanently. Politicians need to be at each other's throats and never sure about anything to minimize the damage they would do otherwise.

msh 6y ago

Why does epic single out two platforms and not also sue Microsoft (Xbox), Sony and Nintendo. Seems like double standards to me.

the_hoser 6y ago
Much harder to win against them. Depending on how this goes, they're probably next.
throwaway140820 6y ago
Can we please have a precedent set, once that starts I am confident other walled gardens will come down too. Also gaming consoles are not an essential part of life, at least not in my country where people usually can't afford to indulge in those luxuries.
- etchalon 6y ago
  Android sort of proves that walled gardens won't come down. And Epic's lawsuit(s!) aren't about brining those gardens down. They're about Epic, and other developers, getting absolute control over their place in that garden. They don't care that the walled garden exists. They're just angry about the cost of the manure.
- imtringued 6y ago
  Why is an iPhone an essential part of life? Gaming consoles are cheaper than iPhones and you can often order previous gen Consoles like the 3DS directly from Nintendo's online store for an even lower price.
gpm 6y ago
Because those are the platforms they have standing on I assume. Did Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo perform similar anti-competitive actions against Epic Games? They can't sue just because they have an illegal policy, they also need to have been "personally" (as a company) affected by it. They also have limited amounts of money, and lawsuits are expensive. Better to get precedent established first before suing everyone else (I'm actually surprised that they picked two fights because of this).

staunch 6y ago

These people must also have no idea what Tim Sweeney (Epic founder) is like as a person. This guy is a genius programmer that never sought great wealth for its own sake but happened upon it through creating huge amounts of value and happiness in the world. He's someone who has been preserving wilderness by buying up large swaths of land to keep it safe. He's a good and principled person. He's NOT a money-grubbing two-faced CEO. He's the real deal and he clearly believes that what Apple and Google are doing is wrong. He's also willing to put his money where his mouth is, unlike anyone else. He deserves to be lauded and respected for what he's doing here. Someone has to stand up to Apple and Google and he's the only one putting in the time, effort, and money to do it. Tim Sweeney is the hero of this story and everyone should be backing him up. And in the grand scheme of things, users would be much better off without being restricted to app stores. The era of closed devices ought to be ended by laws. Running arbitrary software on personal computing devices should be protected by Right to Repair or Fair Use laws.

camhart 6y ago
I would like to learn more about Tim. Any suggestions?
mindentropy 6y ago
Good that you mentioned Tim Sweeney. He is someone I look upto because his work does a lot of talking. Fantastic programmer. I really wish the old world game engine programmers unite and support him such as Carmack, Romero etc.

jacobsenscott 6y ago

I truly believe apple pays people to comb through HN and down vote any comment critical of apple. The simple fact is that apple has done more than any other company in the history of computing to quash the freedom to control your own computing devices. It is impossible to fight apple in the way we fought microsoft years ago - by building out a good opensource ecosystem. The entire reason for the app store is to stop that from happening.

staunch 6y ago
HN's great flaw is that it has been allowed to be overrun by huge numbers of people from large organizations. There are tens of thousands of people from FAANG/YC acting as self-interested agents of their organizations without any kind of disclosure or counter-measures. These are, in effect, massive voting rings and propaganda efforts which are supposedly not allowed on HN. It's obvious how this results in the total dominance of FAANG/YC content, and how it skews the public conversation in Silicon Valley in their favor. HN could take a variety of counter-measures but they don't. Maybe because users would quickly point out the hypocrisy of ending FAANG voting rings/propaganda while permitting the YC voting rings/propaganda. HN is now the premier mouthpiece for tech corporate interests. It would be great for the world if someone were to create a replacement that was designed to prevent this problem, while preserving what is good about HN. Or if HN took action even if it was 5+ years late.
- noahth 6y ago
  Many have tried. There's a simple reason that you glance at but don't directly confront in your post. The "voting rings" you outline are actually a huge constituency, thanks to the outlandish concentration of wealth and resources in the hands of these few companies (I mean FAANG - YC has a huge and unique network but I don't suspsect it's anywhere close to the same scale in dollars or current employees). No site can keep out so many skilled and knowledgeable techies and expect to keep up the level of quality that HN provides. This is one of those cases where culture flows pretty clearly from material reality - you can't have a better site until the titans are dethroned and dismembered. So, if you want a better HN, don't build an HN clone! Build political power that will target monopolies, monopsonies, and anything "too big to fail" for levelling and redistribution.

submeta 6y ago

> Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists. I am wondering if Apple pays a battery of social media / marketing guys to influence the discussions in their favor. Now let the downvotes begin.

dj_mc_merlin 6y ago

Preach.

spanhandler 6y ago

> Fuck your security and fuck your walled gardens. Sigh. I guess we're going to remove a product category (the relatively safe, very consistent, managed platform you can use when you just want to use a computer and not also manage a computer) and call that consumer choice, then? I'd prefer instead that more companies make something similarly-nice and compete with Apple. I have lots and lots of options I can use if I want to have to worry about a bunch of silly stuff like "will this .exe or 3rd-party repo pwn me?" or "is this payment prompt fake?" when I'm just trying to play the piano, make art, track recipes, balance my books, or whatever. I use them all the time, in fact. When I don't want to worry about that crap I use iOS. It's nice having any option in that category. I do not want to go back to having zero of them. I don't care that 3rd party browsers on it have to render with the WebKit engine. Not even a little.

throwaway140820 6y ago
I am sorry, I don't understand. Will you be suddenly forced to install all the shit from all the sources? Nobody is forcing you right? How does your position change with the new one? Are you arguing having firefox and ublock on iphone will suddenly make it more pleasant to browse the web and you don't like it? I am sure you are not.
- spanhandler 6y ago
  > I am sorry, I don't understand. Will you be suddenly forced to install all the shit from all the sources? Nobody is forcing you right? How does your position change with the new one? No, but it may mean some apps will use different payment prompts & systems, different cancellation systems for subscriptions, have different return policies, and so on, and it may mean that sometimes an app I want requires me to either go sign up on another app store or else not use the app, while right now 100% of apps on the platform are on one store, so that is never an issue. If I want to deal with that mental overhead and risk I can go use my PC. I have options if I want that experience. I don't on my phone and tablets. > Are you arguing having firefox and ublock on iphone will suddenly make it more pleasant to browse the web and you don't like it? I am sure you are not. Effectively every site works alright in Safari. It has to. It might not anymore if Google can banner-ad enough of the iOS ecosystem onto Chrome using their own renderer instead of Webkit. My kindergartener's school iPad won't come with some cheaply-made app marketed to schools that contains an entire web engine (makes cross-platform easier, don't you know) that has a bug that lets it access the open web, bypassing the OS web controls. It can't, because if it uses a webview it has to use Webkit, which obeys the OS settings. That's a good thing. For that matter half the apps on the app store aren't the mobile equivalent of Electron, shipping with an entire browser on board, for the same reason of developer convenience, wasting my disk space and killing my battery, because they're simply not allowed to do that. Again, good thing. I don't want to have to try to figure out the damn stack an app was built on before clicking "buy". It's bad enough they let React Native and Phonegap and such through the review process. I wish they didn't. I don't know how it's so hard to understand that the locking down is a feature to many users. I want more devices that do that. Everyone worries about some dark future of only locked-down devices but here I am annoyed that there's a monopoly on those, while I've got a ton of options for my other computing needs. If I want a safe, low-maintenance, but still highly-capable machine for some non-tech-nerd in my life, which they'll be able to use pretty well totally independently, I have one option. That sucks.

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tommilukkarinen 6y ago

I was asked today, something with the lines: "Why don't you organize and fight? Why don't you build an open ecosystem, which you will use to replace stores." I was thinking after that a) we could make a store (that's the simple part) b) when enough of us were behind we could pressure for it to be accepted Because even if Epic wins and we can have some improvements, it wont fix the issues I would donate and work for the cause, what about the rest of you? How to get started, Apache Foundation? EDIT: I have to add, I would not work for this 'because it is the right thing to do', but to ensure that I can do business in the future without fear of A+G

jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
Basically we have to lobby the government to undo decades of case law going back to the late 90s and make it illegal for companies to run vertically integrated monopolies. That's the work. You ready for that? No. We cant just slink off into IRC and build our own store. We cant just do The Right Thing, we also have to make the Wrong Thing prohibitively expensive for the general population.

mvn9 6y ago

No, we shouldn't have had an alternative app store on iphones. Apple doesn't have a monopoly. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy an iphone to get online and make calls. If you start a company, and you have 50% market share [1], do you want to be treated like a monopoly? In a free market, Apple should be allowed to operate however they see fit, as long as they don't have a monopoly. Of course it is annoying that they can demand that much, but that's how open markets work. All those developers who want better conditions on an app store, nobody is preventing them from joining their forces and creating a better operating system that promotes their own store with more favourable conditions. Android is a sitting duck. Take objective c, the bsd kernel and the openstep libraries and link them up to your own mobile operating system. As long as Oracle doesn't win against Google, it can even have the same api as ios and thus all the existing apps from the apple app store. At first, offer it as a ROM for android devices, then start making your own. Apple's devices are expensive. Customers will love to buy cheaper alternatives. Judging by the upvotes of this story alone, there should be 1000 developers wanting to have their own app store. If half of them invest some time of their life to create a new objective c operating system, they should have something operational in a year or two. Most likely much faster than the legal proceedings that could create a second app store on ios, with the nice benefit of being in control of the process. [1] Research into Android vs iOS market share in the US shows that the market leader remains Google Android, with a 51.1% market share in June 2019. https://leftronic.com/android-vs-ios-market-share/ https://leftronic.com/android-vs-ios-market-share/

heavyset_go 6y ago
Via the FTC[0]: > Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors. That is how that term is used here: a "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power. [0] https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
- mvn9 6y ago

Accacin 6y ago

Correct. For me there are valid arguments for a walled garden (providing users can opt out) but this isn’t about any of that. This is about Apple not getting paid, the users are not ‘winning’ in this standoff. Apple are prepared to fuck over their users for them not getting paid, and I can’t see a good argument for anyone thinking that this is okay.

thdrdt 6y ago

Update policies on Android (I want to use my phone until it is completely broken) made me start to look at Apple. But then I realized it is not an alternative. In another thread someone compared Apple with a dictatorship and this is right. Maybe you will feel safe but there is no freedom. And when you don't do as the dictator pleases you are in trouble. Companies get too big and too powerful. Some say this is the beginning of a new world order, like the industrial revolution changed how the world was ordered.

eanzenberg 6y ago

Don’t force shit onto every Apple user. One app store is for security and privacy. Apple curates and that costs money. I don’t want my and my families and friend’s ios devices turning into the pile of hot garbage android devices. If you don’t like it, leave! Or make your own device to sell!

mhh__ 6y ago
> or make your own device to sell Bordering on bad faith.
- imtringued 6y ago
  When you buy an Apple device you are supporting Apple and their restrictive platform. Why on earth would you buy an Apple device if you disagree with that?

abc-xyz 6y ago

I think the timing is very unfortunate. Shortly after Trump’s executive order targeting Tencent and ByteDance (hopefully with more to come) then Epic (heavily backed by Tencent) launch an attack against Apple. Tinfoil hat on: Apple is probably worried that if Trump gets re-elected then they would be forced out of the Chinese market unless they allow third-party app stores where people can download the Chinese apps that Trump would force them to remove. Apple will therefore opt to allow third-party app installations (which would hurt them a lot if we ignored the Chinese market) rather than lowering their fees or allowing third-party payment providers.

PakG1 6y ago

Epic being big is possibly the only reason why they had the balls to pull the trigger on this whole thing. Can't imagine indies doing it, not enough money and power. Gotta take fights you can handle.

TakakiTohno 6y ago
Agreed. I applaud Epic for taking this stance. Of course, they are likely doing it for their own interests. However, this fight can help all the indie developers who don't have the lawyers or the money to stand up, and hopefully lower the amount that Google Play and Apple take from hard-working devs that upload apps to their platform.

aero-glide 6y ago

I was very depressed over the last few months because I thought there is no one left who will stand against these big companies. Reading hackernews comments was very depressing since everyone was defending Apple. That changed today, after reading this thread. Looks like there is some hope left. Thanks for voicing your opinion, it makes me feel better for the future.

205guy 6y ago

Fine: fuck you all you greedy devs who can't understand that the platform exists only because of Apple investment in security and usability and fuck all you scummy devs who want to collect all my contacts and location info and sell it to spammers, and probably my microphone and camera and sell it to blackmailers. Yeah, fuck them too. Thank you, that was cathartic.

throwaway140820 6y ago

For some reason this is no longer the top post in the submission.

dang 6y ago
We moderate top posts when they break the site guidelines, such as by being unsubstantive rants. Please don't fulminate on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (No, we don't care one way or another about Apple. We just care about HN.)

allarm 6y ago

Couldn’t agree more. Also fuck you for writing it from a throwaway account.