13 ms·

I wonder if it is not so much "the cult of the free" as "the art of directionless misspending". Look at all the projects Mozilla got involved in that were not r

I wonder if it is not so much "the cult of the free" as "the art of directionless misspending". Look at all the projects Mozilla got involved in that were not really related to the browser. Also, from the list of jobs laid off there are some jobs that seem superfluous to the main core concept of browser development: Diversity and Inclusion Lead, Office and Culture Project Manager, Director of Strategic Alliances and Platform Strategy - Mixed Reality, Global Event Maker, Senior University Recruiter, Senior Product Designer + Growth, Staff Business Strategist, Lead UX Designer for Brand, Senior Brand Designer, Head of Design, Senior Executive Assistant, Brand Designer. I am not even sure what some of those jobs involve! Some even sound like invented jobs to me. I mean, is a "brand designer" someone who actually draws graphics or is it just someone who thinks what the "brand" should involve? ie. The Web, a browser. Education welcomed.

losvedir 6y ago
I mean, someone has to come up with "moz://a". It's cute, to be sure, but it felt like kind of a slap in the face when I saw that rebrand logo front and center on the blog post about Mozilla laying off 250 staff.
- sukilot 6y ago
  That logo was launched 3 years ago
  - KMag 6y ago
    Never let reality spoil a good selective-memory-based rant.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    Yes, and it is an icon of the priorities that got them in this mess.
acqq 6y ago
> the list of jobs laid off Where is it? I've seen in other posts that real developers (even "almost all Servo team") were laid off?
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  I browsed the list on mozillalifeboat.com; there's a discussion on here about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24135032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24135032
- pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
  Overwhelming sentiment seems to be the opinion that Mozilla should be focusing on Firefox but at the same time raising vague concerns about Servo being cut. Servo was an R&D project that fulfilled its purpose with respect to Firefox.
fnord123 6y ago
>Look at all the projects Mozilla got involved in that were not really related to the browser. Mozilla isn't just about the browser. It's about free and open internet. So of course they should be involved in authentication, search, messaging (mail, chat, and video), and secure dns. But they don't do any of those projects any more so whatever.
- wott 6y ago
  > Mozilla isn't just about the browser. It's about free and open internet. Which is contradictory with what they have actually been doing for a decade, which is pushing, pushing and pushing again for Web-everything and everything-Web everywhere. Even the items you list after, in Mozilla strategy, were meant be implemented inside and around a single piece of tech: a Web browser, over a single protocol (HTTP(S)); also replacing classical libraries with Web-tech (that's now new since the interface of their products has always been based on some form of it, but they kept on pushing the pedal of webisation).
- throwaways885 6y ago
  Man... Mozilla could've been it's own Google if they wanted to be. Maybe they even would've had the clout to produce a privacy friendly ad network. What a wasted opportunity.
  - krageon 6y ago
    > privacy friendly ad network Given that the ad industry is filled by the kind of people who are vocally hostile to privacy (especially when it comes to "targeting ads"), this is a product without a market.
    - throwaways885 6y ago
      Not really. Mozilla desperately needs a market to make money, and consumers desperately need privacy preserving ad technology so creators don't sink under a lack of funding. The advertisers won't really care since fraud/bad clicks/bad data will just get priced into the bid anyway. Ad fraud is only bad for ad dashboards.
pjc50 6y ago
> Diversity and Inclusion Lead, Office and Culture Project Manager Staff recruitment and retention roles. > Director of Strategic Alliances and Platform Strategy - Mixed Reality Easily mockable since it has "strategic" in it twice, but ultimately this role should either get money into FF or get FF into more platforms. Focus on mixed reality / AR seems questionable in retrospect. > Global Event Maker Did Mozilla have many events? I don't really remember hearing of any. > Senior University Recruiter Fairly obvious: recruit graduates from universities. > Senior Product Designer + Growth This actually sounds pretty core; someone has to define the product, and I don't think you really want that left to the forums. > Lead UX Designer for Brand, Senior Brand Designer, Head of Design, Brand Designer That may be one or two many designers, resulting in unnecessary UI churn. > Senior Executive Assistant Everywhere has one of these. PA to the boss. They tend to be surprisingly critical since they know what's going on even if they don't have formal responsibility.
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  > Staff recruitment and retention roles. The irony being that they themselves were made redundant. How will they possibly keep all the other staff now??
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    It’s pretty weird how the browser took off (and IMO was at its best) before most (all?) of these roles were involved, isn’t it?
- trabant00 6y ago
  > > Diversity and Inclusion Lead, Office and Culture Project Manager > Staff recruitment and retention roles. More like the exact opposite: annoy your staff with superficial stuff.
  - ffdjjjffjj 6y ago
    You don’t think those are important?
xtracto 6y ago
I lean more to setup nonprofits like Mozilla as Cooperatives, that way it will attract less the wrong kind of people (execs aiming to get millions of dollars in comps) and the money can be shared among the people doing the grinding.
konaraddi 6y ago
> Look at all the projects Mozilla got involved in that were not really related to the browser. Do you have some examples of this? Also, their mission is beyond the browser: "Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all. An Internet that truly puts people first, where individuals can shape their own experience and are empowered, safe and independent." [0] I've said it before but I'll say it again since it's relevant: The cost of building and maintaining a competitive browser is huge and it's hard for Mozilla/Firefox to compete with Google/Chrome. Firefox saw its monthly active users go down by ~6% in the last 12 months [1]. I think Mozilla should consider stopping Firefox development and fork Chromium to focus on accessibility and privacy (both in and out of the browser). It's far from ideal--there'll only be one popular browser engine--but it's a trade off that could help Mozilla put more money and time towards its true mission: "to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all". The cost of building/maintaining Firefox is holding them back from putting more money and effort toward that mission (and I think that's why they're reducing their workforce [2]). [0] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/mission/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/mission/ [1] 222M MAU in Aug. 2019 and 209M MAU as of Aug. 2, 2020 https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity [2] "Today we announced a significant restructuring of Mozilla Corporation. This will strengthen our ability to build and invest in products and services that will give people alternatives to conventional Big Tech. Sadly, the changes also include a significant reduction in our workforce by approximately 250 people." https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2020/08/11/changing-world-changing-mozilla/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2020/08/11/changing-world-chan...
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  How am I "empowered" on the Internet? If I do not use Mozilla products, am I powerless when I use the Internet? Are all Apple iPhone users powerless? Can I no longer "shape my own experience" if I use an iPhone with Safari? If I use Mozilla products, do I get given richer webpages where my experience is modifiable by me? If not, how do I "shape" my experience?? The mission statement is vague, which seems to have translated into liberal spending.
  - 6y ago
jstummbillig 6y ago
I find it somewhat off-putting that you would declare a bunch of standard tech industry jobs to be "superfluous", while at the same time admitting that you have no concept of what these roles even entail.
- jasode 6y ago
  >you would declare a bunch of standard tech industry jobs to be "superfluous", It looks like you're misquoting GP. Unless they edited it later and I didn't notice... the commenter said, "_seems_ superflous" not "_are_ superfluous". They said they were willing to be educated on what those roles did.
  - 72deluxe 6y ago
    Thanks. I did not edit it. I did indeed state that they "seemed superfluous" and that I am willing to be educated.
  - diffeomorphism 6y ago
    How do you think this makes it at all better? This "I only said you 'seem' like an <expletive>. That wasn't an insult." is something not even preschool children would be fooled by.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Read the next words as well. that seem superfluous to the main core concept of browser development. It wasn't claimed that "no company should ever have those jobs", just that they don't really seem central to browser development.
    - justwalt 6y ago
      I think we should assume the most charitable interpretation, unless we all want to sound like angry old men. Keeps interaction pleasant in spite of anonymity.
      - 6y ago
37eudeuheeu 6y ago
I don't get the heartbreak over Mozilla, the only people I know who use Mozilla products are tech enthusiasts and people who would fall into the political spectrum of "cyber activist". It's not sad when an org that ignored the bulk of users to chase idealism finds itself beaten out by corps that decided to focus on giving users what they want.
37eudeuheeu 6y ago
I don't get the heartbreak over Mozilla and I don't get why there's all these confused people who were apparently wearing rose tinted glasses until now. The last time Firefox mattered to the world at large was at least five years ago, the only people I know who use Mozilla products are tech enthusiasts and people who would fall into the political spectrum of "cyber activist". It's not sad when an org that ignored the bulk of users to chase idealism finds itself beaten out by corps that decided to focus on giving users what they want.

losvedir 6y ago

I mean, someone has to come up with "moz://a". It's cute, to be sure, but it felt like kind of a slap in the face when I saw that rebrand logo front and center on the blog post about Mozilla laying off 250 staff.

sukilot 6y ago
That logo was launched 3 years ago
- KMag 6y ago
  Never let reality spoil a good selective-memory-based rant.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Yes, and it is an icon of the priorities that got them in this mess.

acqq 6y ago

> the list of jobs laid off Where is it? I've seen in other posts that real developers (even "almost all Servo team") were laid off?

72deluxe 6y ago
I browsed the list on mozillalifeboat.com; there's a discussion on here about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24135032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24135032
pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
Overwhelming sentiment seems to be the opinion that Mozilla should be focusing on Firefox but at the same time raising vague concerns about Servo being cut. Servo was an R&D project that fulfilled its purpose with respect to Firefox.

fnord123 6y ago

>Look at all the projects Mozilla got involved in that were not really related to the browser. Mozilla isn't just about the browser. It's about free and open internet. So of course they should be involved in authentication, search, messaging (mail, chat, and video), and secure dns. But they don't do any of those projects any more so whatever.

wott 6y ago
> Mozilla isn't just about the browser. It's about free and open internet. Which is contradictory with what they have actually been doing for a decade, which is pushing, pushing and pushing again for Web-everything and everything-Web everywhere. Even the items you list after, in Mozilla strategy, were meant be implemented inside and around a single piece of tech: a Web browser, over a single protocol (HTTP(S)); also replacing classical libraries with Web-tech (that's now new since the interface of their products has always been based on some form of it, but they kept on pushing the pedal of webisation).
throwaways885 6y ago
Man... Mozilla could've been it's own Google if they wanted to be. Maybe they even would've had the clout to produce a privacy friendly ad network. What a wasted opportunity.
- krageon 6y ago
  > privacy friendly ad network Given that the ad industry is filled by the kind of people who are vocally hostile to privacy (especially when it comes to "targeting ads"), this is a product without a market.
  - throwaways885 6y ago
    Not really. Mozilla desperately needs a market to make money, and consumers desperately need privacy preserving ad technology so creators don't sink under a lack of funding. The advertisers won't really care since fraud/bad clicks/bad data will just get priced into the bid anyway. Ad fraud is only bad for ad dashboards.

pjc50 6y ago

> Diversity and Inclusion Lead, Office and Culture Project Manager Staff recruitment and retention roles. > Director of Strategic Alliances and Platform Strategy - Mixed Reality Easily mockable since it has "strategic" in it twice, but ultimately this role should either get money into FF or get FF into more platforms. Focus on mixed reality / AR seems questionable in retrospect. > Global Event Maker Did Mozilla have many events? I don't really remember hearing of any. > Senior University Recruiter Fairly obvious: recruit graduates from universities. > Senior Product Designer + Growth This actually sounds pretty core; someone has to define the product, and I don't think you really want that left to the forums. > Lead UX Designer for Brand, Senior Brand Designer, Head of Design, Brand Designer That may be one or two many designers, resulting in unnecessary UI churn. > Senior Executive Assistant Everywhere has one of these. PA to the boss. They tend to be surprisingly critical since they know what's going on even if they don't have formal responsibility.

72deluxe 6y ago
> Staff recruitment and retention roles. The irony being that they themselves were made redundant. How will they possibly keep all the other staff now??
- spanhandler 6y ago
  It’s pretty weird how the browser took off (and IMO was at its best) before most (all?) of these roles were involved, isn’t it?
trabant00 6y ago
> > Diversity and Inclusion Lead, Office and Culture Project Manager > Staff recruitment and retention roles. More like the exact opposite: annoy your staff with superficial stuff.
- ffdjjjffjj 6y ago
  You don’t think those are important?

xtracto 6y ago

I lean more to setup nonprofits like Mozilla as Cooperatives, that way it will attract less the wrong kind of people (execs aiming to get millions of dollars in comps) and the money can be shared among the people doing the grinding.

konaraddi 6y ago

> Look at all the projects Mozilla got involved in that were not really related to the browser. Do you have some examples of this? Also, their mission is beyond the browser: "Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all. An Internet that truly puts people first, where individuals can shape their own experience and are empowered, safe and independent." [0] I've said it before but I'll say it again since it's relevant: The cost of building and maintaining a competitive browser is huge and it's hard for Mozilla/Firefox to compete with Google/Chrome. Firefox saw its monthly active users go down by ~6% in the last 12 months [1]. I think Mozilla should consider stopping Firefox development and fork Chromium to focus on accessibility and privacy (both in and out of the browser). It's far from ideal--there'll only be one popular browser engine--but it's a trade off that could help Mozilla put more money and time towards its true mission: "to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all". The cost of building/maintaining Firefox is holding them back from putting more money and effort toward that mission (and I think that's why they're reducing their workforce [2]). [0] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/mission/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/mission/ [1] 222M MAU in Aug. 2019 and 209M MAU as of Aug. 2, 2020 https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity [2] "Today we announced a significant restructuring of Mozilla Corporation. This will strengthen our ability to build and invest in products and services that will give people alternatives to conventional Big Tech. Sadly, the changes also include a significant reduction in our workforce by approximately 250 people." https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2020/08/11/changing-world-changing-mozilla/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2020/08/11/changing-world-chan...

72deluxe 6y ago
How am I "empowered" on the Internet? If I do not use Mozilla products, am I powerless when I use the Internet? Are all Apple iPhone users powerless? Can I no longer "shape my own experience" if I use an iPhone with Safari? If I use Mozilla products, do I get given richer webpages where my experience is modifiable by me? If not, how do I "shape" my experience?? The mission statement is vague, which seems to have translated into liberal spending.
- 6y ago

jstummbillig 6y ago

I find it somewhat off-putting that you would declare a bunch of standard tech industry jobs to be "superfluous", while at the same time admitting that you have no concept of what these roles even entail.

jasode 6y ago
>you would declare a bunch of standard tech industry jobs to be "superfluous", It looks like you're misquoting GP. Unless they edited it later and I didn't notice... the commenter said, "_seems_ superflous" not "_are_ superfluous". They said they were willing to be educated on what those roles did.
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  Thanks. I did not edit it. I did indeed state that they "seemed superfluous" and that I am willing to be educated.
- diffeomorphism 6y ago
  How do you think this makes it at all better? This "I only said you 'seem' like an <expletive>. That wasn't an insult." is something not even preschool children would be fooled by.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Read the next words as well. that seem superfluous to the main core concept of browser development. It wasn't claimed that "no company should ever have those jobs", just that they don't really seem central to browser development.
  - justwalt 6y ago
    I think we should assume the most charitable interpretation, unless we all want to sound like angry old men. Keeps interaction pleasant in spite of anonymity.
    - 6y ago

37eudeuheeu 6y ago

I don't get the heartbreak over Mozilla, the only people I know who use Mozilla products are tech enthusiasts and people who would fall into the political spectrum of "cyber activist". It's not sad when an org that ignored the bulk of users to chase idealism finds itself beaten out by corps that decided to focus on giving users what they want.

37eudeuheeu 6y ago

I don't get the heartbreak over Mozilla and I don't get why there's all these confused people who were apparently wearing rose tinted glasses until now. The last time Firefox mattered to the world at large was at least five years ago, the only people I know who use Mozilla products are tech enthusiasts and people who would fall into the political spectrum of "cyber activist". It's not sad when an org that ignored the bulk of users to chase idealism finds itself beaten out by corps that decided to focus on giving users what they want.