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Without making the jump from washing plates/factory work to software I don't know how I would have escaped(still haven't) considering my pay increased 4 times.

Without making the jump from washing plates/factory work to software I don't know how I would have escaped(still haven't) considering my pay increased 4 times. Just brutal when you trade hours for money directly at a low rate, I was doing 70hrs washing plates before and it was nothing ha. Edit: there is the thought of living within your means, personally with a roommate I could live on $10-$20K a year which you can make doing labor jobs but not a lot saving. I'm lucky being single/having no direct responsibility eg. children. It is my opinion though that if you want to/have internet/time then you can alter your life for the better, but yeah can't just say "learn to code". But other options available. I see the point about opportunity because I had a friend to crash on his couch when I was technically homeless that is helpful/bare min opportunity. My jump was not fast, it took at least 2 years not including the 3 years before that of self-study/personal interest. I freelanced on the side while working as a dishwasher before first in office/full time job.

adventured 6y ago
What language/s did you teach yourself during that several year learning time? What did you choose to focus on? (I noticed this: ReactJS/Node-Express/MySQL/Python in your profile, but I'm not sure if that's what you started with)
- MaximumYComb 6y ago
  His stack indicates web dev, which is the typical path for self taught programmers. Plenty of work available that pays more than minimum wage.
  - jcun4128 6y ago
    Yeah I have not really gone down into the C/C++ that level and I haven't touched the Microsoft side eg. .NET Closest thing for "native" is using the wrappers for JS which for my needs works. I did have to force myself to figure out how to get a basic Android widget (Java) to work that was tough.
- jcun4128 6y ago
  Short answer: at the time learned LAMP stack, able to build interfaces, auth, ssl, setup servers, make db schemas/make APIs, etc... I remember I had to learn how DNS worked haha. I wasn't learning specifically to get hired. My first stuff was trying to build high traffic websites/make money through ads but my ideas were dumb. But I still learned in the process how to build websites. Full answer https://i.imgur.com/uAGMHkQ.png https://i.imgur.com/uAGMHkQ.png First full time in-office job 2018
  - adventured 6y ago
    I appreciate the story. Congrats on the excellent progress!
    - jcun4128 6y ago
      Thanks, yeah I am still not secure, always fear of incompetence. Not having a degree is a fear. But I just have to keep learning/save/make more money ha. Get that burn rate, entrepreneur, FiRe, etc... I'm fortunate to have gotten into this field though and enjoy it personally.
      - simonh 6y ago
        Really cool story. One of the best engineers I ever worked for started as a psychiatric nurse. He got to know the guys in the computer department at his hospital and got a job doing desktop support. When he hired me, he was running application support at a fin tech startup. He wrote their distributed application monitoring system from scratch in Perl (this was a while ago when that actually made sense).
        jcun4128 6y ago
        > distributed application monitoring system Dang that sounds nuts, I haven't made anything nearly that complex haha. There is something about architecting something and seeing it work "on its own". It's a cool feeling.
asdff 6y ago
This sort of perspective is very important, especially here on HN where I see plenty of ignorance on this topic. When you work these jobs, often the local cost of living is pinned to these minimum wages, where you stagnate and are unable to save. How can you possible afford to move when your rent increases? You have no savings to rent a vehicle to move your things, nothing to put down up front for a new apartment, and at no guarantee of finding a job at the end because a manager for working class work is only going to bother hiring local candidates. Throw in an unforeseen cost, and you can see how easy it is for people to end up missing payments and living in their car or a tent while still working that minimum wage job.
- jcun4128 6y ago
  Yeah I didn't have a car for a while, I didn't get a job back in 2015 or so for PHP because of that ha. First in office web developer job after restaurant, I had to bike 30 miles a day lol [1] round trip, that was brutal. On the plus side, 3 hrs of podcasts. I listened to the book Eccentric Orbits then that was good. Uber was like $60/day so yeah... although I only made it 4 days straight, never 5 days of bike riding so I would eat the Uber cost one day. I was lucky that friend loaned me $3K to get a car(opportunity). But I bought a bad car/sunk money into it(had to fix). I would bike home from the factory pitch black road at night(dumb) listening to Changelog haha good times. [1] https://i.imgur.com/cOZWquX.png https://i.imgur.com/cOZWquX.png
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    OT Graeme Obree biked 60 miles round trip for work. Due to the fitness gained he was able to come out of nowhere to break the hour record in cycling on a bike he built himself out of miscellaneous parts from things like washing machines.
    - q845712 6y ago
      that's super badass, but my recollection of having a commute slightly over 30 miles roundtrip is that it was thoroughly exhausting. Or in other words, the same difficult circumstances that inspire one person to remarkable success will still grind many other people down. We can all aspire to be great, be by definition most of us will hew pretty close to average for our circumstances. I think this thread is pointing out how difficult some circumstances can be, which doesn't need to discount the possibility for someone to transcend them, but you're pointing out an outlier in a discussion about median results.
e40 6y ago
Ever read the Zine from the 90's called Dishwasher? That is my favorite Zine of all time. I absolutely loved it.
- jcun4128 6y ago
  I have not read that. There is something nice about dishwasher jobs because they're high turnover rate/low barrier to entry/can get hired pretty quickly. Granted in some cases I had to go through some application process eg. take a quiz on running over 2 people or 1 on train tracks, etc... but yeah. I'm hoping at least by now, I have enough "value" as a developer to be able to worst case freelance hourly or something. At least now I'm paid well enough/working on saving. I almost welcome failure in a way because it's exciting/scrambling like needing to manifest a miracle. I have contingency plans you know sell everything I own, etc... but yeah. Worst outcome is prison/death I think. So I have no excuse but to try.
  - wahern 6y ago
    Have you heard of Dishwasher Pete? Many people, myself included, seemed to have learned about his zine after listening to one of his memorable public radio appearances: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/102/road-trip/act-one-0 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/102/road-trip/act-one-0 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/115/first-day/act-one-0 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/115/first-day/act-one-0 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10991537 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=109915... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_Pete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_Pete NOTE: This American Life audio didn't seem to work in Chrome, even after disabling uBlock Origin.
    - jcun4128 6y ago
      Thanks for the links I will read/take a listen as I have time. Ooh this will be good/will listen to it for my cooking/cleaning podcasts heh.
JAlexoid 6y ago
I spent about 10 years of studying before I landed my first quality job. I went through literal poverty at that time - having $10 per week for myself and my schizophrenic mother to live off. I was also lucky, because my sister left to work in Italy. That would make all of the difference... If I didn't have: - free education secondary and higher - low cost local transport - a suit given by my sister - 4 tickets to another city to interview(paid by my sister) - low cost internet - rent paid by my sister I would have been just another bum, because that 10y period included being kicked out onto the street... because some nice "rich people" used my schizophrenic mother in a tax avoidance scheme... and got away with it. There's a lot of luck that is involved in getting out of poverty, that most arrogant middle class individuals completely ignore.
- jcun4128 6y ago
  > having $10 per week Wow... how is that possible, I guess depends where/maybe what year. Glad to hear you got to a better situation
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    It's barely possible... but it is poverty of depressive proportions. Think of never having new clothes, only donated clothes.
- causehealth101 6y ago
  Wow, quite an experience. I'm curious: how did those rich people use your schizophrenic mother in tax avoidance scheme?

adventured 6y ago

What language/s did you teach yourself during that several year learning time? What did you choose to focus on? (I noticed this: ReactJS/Node-Express/MySQL/Python in your profile, but I'm not sure if that's what you started with)

MaximumYComb 6y ago
His stack indicates web dev, which is the typical path for self taught programmers. Plenty of work available that pays more than minimum wage.
- jcun4128 6y ago
  Yeah I have not really gone down into the C/C++ that level and I haven't touched the Microsoft side eg. .NET Closest thing for "native" is using the wrappers for JS which for my needs works. I did have to force myself to figure out how to get a basic Android widget (Java) to work that was tough.
jcun4128 6y ago
Short answer: at the time learned LAMP stack, able to build interfaces, auth, ssl, setup servers, make db schemas/make APIs, etc... I remember I had to learn how DNS worked haha. I wasn't learning specifically to get hired. My first stuff was trying to build high traffic websites/make money through ads but my ideas were dumb. But I still learned in the process how to build websites. Full answer https://i.imgur.com/uAGMHkQ.png https://i.imgur.com/uAGMHkQ.png First full time in-office job 2018
- adventured 6y ago
  I appreciate the story. Congrats on the excellent progress!
  - jcun4128 6y ago
    Thanks, yeah I am still not secure, always fear of incompetence. Not having a degree is a fear. But I just have to keep learning/save/make more money ha. Get that burn rate, entrepreneur, FiRe, etc... I'm fortunate to have gotten into this field though and enjoy it personally.
    - simonh 6y ago
      Really cool story. One of the best engineers I ever worked for started as a psychiatric nurse. He got to know the guys in the computer department at his hospital and got a job doing desktop support. When he hired me, he was running application support at a fin tech startup. He wrote their distributed application monitoring system from scratch in Perl (this was a while ago when that actually made sense).
      - jcun4128 6y ago
        > distributed application monitoring system Dang that sounds nuts, I haven't made anything nearly that complex haha. There is something about architecting something and seeing it work "on its own". It's a cool feeling.

asdff 6y ago

This sort of perspective is very important, especially here on HN where I see plenty of ignorance on this topic. When you work these jobs, often the local cost of living is pinned to these minimum wages, where you stagnate and are unable to save. How can you possible afford to move when your rent increases? You have no savings to rent a vehicle to move your things, nothing to put down up front for a new apartment, and at no guarantee of finding a job at the end because a manager for working class work is only going to bother hiring local candidates. Throw in an unforeseen cost, and you can see how easy it is for people to end up missing payments and living in their car or a tent while still working that minimum wage job.

jcun4128 6y ago
Yeah I didn't have a car for a while, I didn't get a job back in 2015 or so for PHP because of that ha. First in office web developer job after restaurant, I had to bike 30 miles a day lol [1] round trip, that was brutal. On the plus side, 3 hrs of podcasts. I listened to the book Eccentric Orbits then that was good. Uber was like $60/day so yeah... although I only made it 4 days straight, never 5 days of bike riding so I would eat the Uber cost one day. I was lucky that friend loaned me $3K to get a car(opportunity). But I bought a bad car/sunk money into it(had to fix). I would bike home from the factory pitch black road at night(dumb) listening to Changelog haha good times. [1] https://i.imgur.com/cOZWquX.png https://i.imgur.com/cOZWquX.png
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  OT Graeme Obree biked 60 miles round trip for work. Due to the fitness gained he was able to come out of nowhere to break the hour record in cycling on a bike he built himself out of miscellaneous parts from things like washing machines.
  - q845712 6y ago
    that's super badass, but my recollection of having a commute slightly over 30 miles roundtrip is that it was thoroughly exhausting. Or in other words, the same difficult circumstances that inspire one person to remarkable success will still grind many other people down. We can all aspire to be great, be by definition most of us will hew pretty close to average for our circumstances. I think this thread is pointing out how difficult some circumstances can be, which doesn't need to discount the possibility for someone to transcend them, but you're pointing out an outlier in a discussion about median results.

e40 6y ago

Ever read the Zine from the 90's called Dishwasher? That is my favorite Zine of all time. I absolutely loved it.

jcun4128 6y ago
I have not read that. There is something nice about dishwasher jobs because they're high turnover rate/low barrier to entry/can get hired pretty quickly. Granted in some cases I had to go through some application process eg. take a quiz on running over 2 people or 1 on train tracks, etc... but yeah. I'm hoping at least by now, I have enough "value" as a developer to be able to worst case freelance hourly or something. At least now I'm paid well enough/working on saving. I almost welcome failure in a way because it's exciting/scrambling like needing to manifest a miracle. I have contingency plans you know sell everything I own, etc... but yeah. Worst outcome is prison/death I think. So I have no excuse but to try.
- wahern 6y ago
  Have you heard of Dishwasher Pete? Many people, myself included, seemed to have learned about his zine after listening to one of his memorable public radio appearances: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/102/road-trip/act-one-0 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/102/road-trip/act-one-0 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/115/first-day/act-one-0 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/115/first-day/act-one-0 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10991537 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=109915... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_Pete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_Pete NOTE: This American Life audio didn't seem to work in Chrome, even after disabling uBlock Origin.
  - jcun4128 6y ago
    Thanks for the links I will read/take a listen as I have time. Ooh this will be good/will listen to it for my cooking/cleaning podcasts heh.

JAlexoid 6y ago

I spent about 10 years of studying before I landed my first quality job. I went through literal poverty at that time - having $10 per week for myself and my schizophrenic mother to live off. I was also lucky, because my sister left to work in Italy. That would make all of the difference... If I didn't have: - free education secondary and higher - low cost local transport - a suit given by my sister - 4 tickets to another city to interview(paid by my sister) - low cost internet - rent paid by my sister I would have been just another bum, because that 10y period included being kicked out onto the street... because some nice "rich people" used my schizophrenic mother in a tax avoidance scheme... and got away with it. There's a lot of luck that is involved in getting out of poverty, that most arrogant middle class individuals completely ignore.

jcun4128 6y ago
> having $10 per week Wow... how is that possible, I guess depends where/maybe what year. Glad to hear you got to a better situation
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  It's barely possible... but it is poverty of depressive proportions. Think of never having new clothes, only donated clothes.
causehealth101 6y ago
Wow, quite an experience. I'm curious: how did those rich people use your schizophrenic mother in tax avoidance scheme?