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Never owned a Remington myself, but they've not been held in high regard for a while. Some say it was linked to it's acquisition by Cerberus Capital. Ultimately

Never owned a Remington myself, but they've not been held in high regard for a while. Some say it was linked to it's acquisition by Cerberus Capital. Ultimately, though, it seem alike the company was asking customers to pay premium prices for average guns. What justifies spending 800 - 1200 dollars on a Remington 700 as compared to $500 on a Ruger American?

komali2 6y ago
Sounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just to see what all the fuss was about. Seems much ado about nothing, why would I drop 8,000$ on a slab of iron, not even made in the USA anymore, when I could get twice the bike at half the weight for the same price from Suzuki?
- FPGAhacker 6y ago
  You can get a Harley for $8k?
  - abfan1127 6y ago
    yeah, but its usually a cash deal on the side of the road where its broken down /s
  - komali2 6y ago
    I think the Streets go for that?
- lebaux 6y ago
  Plenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship: 1. More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. 2. Better and more accessible competition from around the world. 3. Influencers. I know it is cool to hate them, but there are many building a brand around "one of us". As an example, one of the most popular female youtubers is doing shopping "hauls" in regular shops. You probably don't know that, why would HN watch beauty youtubers. But consider this. Linus Tech Tips is also influence marketing and you can see him talking about Linux, cheap peripherals, bashing Intel. Every category has its Linus. These people have tremendous pull, especially since younger people don't watch TV at all. 4. COVID-19. I speculate that the pandemic exposed how many companies have no reserves (either to low profits or simple because the executives are draining profits). 5. ...and many more, feel free to add.
  - wahern 6y ago
    > Plenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship I only buy major brand-named items on Amazon, and only with Amazon as the seller. The one indispensable characteristic of branding, reputation, is more important than ever even though most brands' reputations are in the dumpster. Knock-offs of unknown or unreliable provenance just happen to be even worse. And even when you find a good non-branded item, reputation is still worse as non-branded items seem to change suppliers more regularly than the branded versions, and supply chain integrity is less trustworthy. In brick & mortar stores I always reach for the generic, in-house brand (assuming the price is lower) knowing that invariably they're made by the same manufacturer as one of the major brands. But contrast that with Amazon's in-house brands, where it's unlikely they source from the same manufacturer as the major brands, and also seem to change suppliers more regularly. American gun manufacturers have been outsourcing production for years. But that doesn't mean people no longer care about brands. Rather, many of those suppliers have made a name for themselves outright, or improved upon their previously lackluster reputation; those are the brands you often hear about today when people give recommendations.
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      This has mostly been my experience (discounting the guns, as I don't have any interest in them). Amazon's actual brands like AmazonBasics seem to be relatively consistent in quality, but they have an awful lot of stuff sold by resellers whose names are clearly random capital letters strung together. During the pandemic, I've shifted more and more of my online shopping to Walmart.com, which -- while it has an increasing share of weird third-party sellers -- doesn't seem to have nearly the same level of out-and-out scams, and to ordering from manufacturers directly. Not only do I feel I'm more likely to get the real thing when I'm ordering that way, it's become surprisingly common for me to find cheaper prices than Amazon's.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. It's also a factor that so many companies nowadays see their brand built over decades by previous generations of workers and management as just another resource to suck dry. Shareholders are blinded to this but they ought to be angry, that is the long-term value of their investment being burnt to paper over management's lack of strategic vision.
- takeda 6y ago
  But does Suzuki make noise as if a muffler fell off?
  - mPReDiToR 6y ago
    I know you were joking, but having ridden a Fat Boy and currently owning a 1l V-Strom I can say that the ridiculously noisy cans on my Suki are nicer to listen to at anything over 1,200 RPM. The Harley burbling away is really cool, but not when you're draging it up to cruising speed.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    Stock Harleys aren't loud either. The loud ones are all aftermarket mods than any bike can have.
    - ultrarunner 6y ago
      Eh… I was just in a Harley dealer last weekend and a salescritter was riding one around the showroom (…yeah…) and it was loud. I know they have db requirements to be imported or whatever, but I don't get the sense that Harley-Davidson is just now building quiet bikes.
      - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
        Dealers will swap out pipes so what you heard wasn't necessarily stock.
- zrobotics 6y ago
  Speaking as someone who owns a 64 panhead and owned a 72 ironhead (rebuilt both from parts): Harleys have almost always been inferior bikes that have a strange sort of charm. Realistically, they occupy the same place as Ural, outdated bikes that have appeal mostly for style. The last time that Harley had anything cutting-edge (ignoring Buell) was likely the knucklehead, which was developed in the 30s. $8k will buy you a used one (not new), but there is a damn good reason there are used Harleys with essentially zero miles avaliable everywhere. I have fun riding my antique crap, but the new ones are such crappy bikes for the money. A new BMW is the same money, for a more comfortable bike that is less maintenance cost. However, I used to live on the route to Sturgis for most of Colorado, Arizona, and western Texas, and I saw probably 80% trailers vs bikes. People don't buy them to ride them, they buy them to fulfill their midlife crisis. To further derail, I would argue Jack Daniel's, Levis, and REI are in the same boat- they are grossly overpriced compared to superior competitors and mostly trade on name brand and perception of past quality.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    REI, really? What are the superior competitors? And do you mean specifically the house-branded gear or the store as a whole? Genuinely curious, since I still shop there. Prices aren't the best but I like the selection and the return policy. Plus the salesdroids actually seem familiar with the gear.
    - topkai22 6y ago
      I’m with you- REI does premium retail really well and that involves more then being just a brand. You can save money elsewhere for equivalent gear, but you won’t get the same service.
      - jacobkania 6y ago
        I’m a big REI fan. I’m not one of those people who hikes every week or anything, but I like to go backpacking and hiking when I can. I also have met lots of people who do the same, and REI is pretty highly regarded among most people. Their products might not be the top-end in every category, but I’ve rarely had an issue with anything bought from them. Plus their service is so outstanding, I’ve been taken care of any time there’s been a problem. It’s totally worth it to me to spend a little more, to get the peace of mind that it’s a fairly good product (they don’t sell anything horrible like you’ll get on amazon or a dept store), and that they’ll take care of any issue that does happen.
- donw 6y ago
  Harley screwed themselves in a lot of different ways. First, they fought to protect their market with tariffs on imported bikes -- okay, fair enough -- but then did absolutely nothing to either grow that market, or innovate on their products at all. They just kept making the same bike, the same way, for a looooooooong time. Harley's branding was 100% focused on the "60's Rebel". The Hells Angel, or the dentist that wanted to pretend he was. The plethora of Japanese manufacturers, instead, worked to bring bikes to the masses. They made more reliable bikes, which were cheaper and easier to own, and marketed them to everybody. Dads. Moms. University students. Normal people, the kind that aren't keen on a Friday-night bar fight. If Harley had been run by forward-thinking management, they would have worked to create affiliate brands aimed at a variety of different demographics, and really worked to innovate on their reliability and quality. Buell was an attempt at this, but it was too little, too late.
  - jacobush 6y ago
    And more efficient manufacturing for the conservative stuff. And better reliability, because really why not?
- emmelaich 6y ago
  Yes! Reminds of the AMF years of HD.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  Sounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just to see what all the fuss was about. Seems much ado about nothing, why would I drop 8,000$ on a slab of iron, not even made in the USA anymore, when I could get twice the bike at half the weight for the same price from Suzuki? Even the Hell's Angels regret choosing Harley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Barger#2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Barger#2000s
- wcarron 6y ago
  I'll do ya 1 better: I had the displeasure of actually buying a new Harley (I was young and stupid). The street 500/750 are the worst of the worst from HD. The Iron 883 is the smallest "real" harley. And it's a completely different feel from the streets. However, it was a trashcan of a bike. I was always fixing weird issues, the HD dealership absolutely sucked in every facet from timeliness of service, to prices, to the guy at the service desk just not being a cunt. I upgraded many parts just to get the damn thing to perform at a reasonable level. Thankfully, I was hit by a car and my bike was totalled. This freed me to purchase a KTM 790 duke which is 160lbs lighter, with double the horsepower, 20% more torque, 80% longer service intervals, all for significantly less than the Iron 883. Harley-Davidson is literally hemmorhaging cash. Their main demo is aging out of the market and they haven't been able to sell to millenials because millenials aren't stupid and go buy a Yamaha MT-09 or Suzuki, etc for waaay less. And I'm hearing whispers that H-D willl be axing their new forays into ADV, standard, and E-bikes.
  - jdhn 6y ago
    >I'm hearing whispers that H-D willl be axing their new forays into ADV, standard, and E-bikes. At that point they might as well start winding down the company. I read reviews of the Livewire (their e-bike) and most people seemed to like it despite the very high price.
    - wcarron 6y ago
      Yeah, sure. The fit and finish on the Livewire is great. But who can afford a $30k+ ebike? Especially one that gets barely 100 miles to the tank? Not young americans, that's for sure. Personally, I can't wait until H-D bites the dust. Hopefully once and for all. They're incredibly overpriced, underpowered, overweight, technologically obsolete bikes (aside from their 1 electric model that sold terribly) with dealerships that suck at customer service (and also charge way too much per hour)
  - dharmab 6y ago
    You know reliability is bad when the KTM is an upgrade! (Former 390 owner who had to warranty their bike...) Even if you stay in cruisers- Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha and Indian quality compared to Harley is insane. It's as if the bikes were made in a different century.
gnarbarian 6y ago
Spot on. They are mostly a brand. None I've seen hold a candle to my 300wm Tikka t3 lite stainless I picked up for $600.
- throwaway4711 6y ago
  I’m sure that can’t hold a candle to my tactical warhead I picked up for 10k BTC.
- borkt 6y ago
  Good buy! I have a Sako finnlight 300 WSM and kinda wish I went with the WM just for ease of finding ammo, but the kick on the finnlight is pretty fatiguing as is. Completely pays off in the mountains though, How is 300wm on the tikka lite?
  - gnarbarian 6y ago
    Painful. Rifle weighs around 6.5lbs. it needs a stock pad to be usable. And if you go through a box of ammo at the range you will be sore for a week. But it's accurate to around .5 MOA and I stick a giant Burris eliminator 3 scope on there to take some of the bite out of the recoil.
    - kerkeslager 6y ago
      A muzzle brake might do wonders for you. I can't speak for 300WSM, but in 308, a muzzle brake takes it from "I'll shoot 10 rounds and regret it the next day", to "I'll shoot 50 rounds and stop from soreness, but have no shoulder bruising the next day."
      - gnarbarian 6y ago
        Yup I've got a fancy brake on my PTR 91. Can shoot .308 through that sucker all day. The Tikka doesn't have a threaded barrel though so I'd have to take it to a gunsmith. Which I'll eventually get around to...
    - 6y ago
axegon_ 6y ago
Same, as far as firearms are concerned. But I do own several other Remington products and the quality is astonishing. One of which is a pocket knife and it's staggering how well made it is. And how outrageously sharp it is for that matter. 3 days before the pandemic started I nearly cut off my left index finger with it...
- zrobotics 6y ago
  I will say, those are licensed products. They may be good, but that's luck of the draw, they have just sold the brand name off to some 3rd party to make a specific product. For what it's worth, I bought a remington-branded bone saw ~3 years back, and it was absolute garbage. It failed to even finish field dressing an elk, and all that was required was one cut of a few inches. It's a shame, their older products were right up there with the likes of Starrett as the pinnacle of precision manufacturing in the US, but poor management can kill any company regardless of the quality of their products. It is sort of ironic that, even given the US's crazy gun culture, most of the iconic American brands have been acquired (Winchester->FN) by other firms or been diluted to irrelevance (Marlin->Remington).
  - markdown 6y ago
    Probably made in China. For high quality bone saws, look no further than Saudi Arabia.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    > American brands have been acquired (Winchester->FN) FN still makes good stuff, though. They're also solvent -- no pump-and-dump investing games here -- and supply lots of gear to global militarizes, including the US military, e.g. the SAW is the FN Minimi, which is made under license in South Carolina.
  - kerkeslager 6y ago
    Marlin is really sad. A Marlin 336 from 1985 and a Marlin 336 from 2019 look the same at first glance, but you only have to cycle the lever once to realize something has changed for the worse. Old timers will tell you that the lever will smooth out with use, which may be true, but my experience is that it will break and require a gunsmith before that happens.
onetimemanytime 6y ago
>>Some say it was linked to it's acquisition by Cerberus Capital. History repeats itself. As if these companies care about the brand reputation over decades, they just want to milk it and then sell it to idiots (public) that recognize the name. People are buying more guns than ever, so it was probably a planned bankruptcy
- cenal 6y ago
  Corporate bankruptcy fueled by private equity? That goes together like peanut butter and jelly.
- sharken 6y ago
  EDIT: Point taken with the downvotes. This feels very similar to the Intel story, except it seems that Intel is aware and will rectify the problem. But less gun companies overall is a Good Thing in my opinion.
  - ponker 6y ago
    I can't think of two more dissimilar stories than Remington and Intel. This is like saying "The Color Purple" feels very similar to "The Da Vinci Code."
  - donw 6y ago
    Remington has been on the rocks for awhile. Low quality, high prices, and outdated technology. Today's buyer wants a lightened AR-15 with holographic sights, not grandpa's double-barrel shotgun. I suspect you're being downvoted from the "less gun companies is a good thing" comment. You would be surprised how popular shooting has become in the US, especially, over the last decade or so, and how diverse the gun community has become. Not to mention how many new brands there are. Twenty years ago, you'd walk into a gun shop, and it'd be... well, let's be kind and say "massively sketchy", with a lot of graying beards and a not-insignificant inventory of items with confederate branding. Nowadays, that's not really the case in most places (which is good!). My favorite range has an espresso bar, and reminds me more of an early-stage WeWork than a gun range. The median age has trended sharply downwards, and although this data isn't tracked, I strongly suspect that there are a lot of first-time gun owners as well. Anecdotally, I'm sort of the "liberal gun guy" amongst my circle of friends, and people that I never thought would want to purchase a firearm have been reaching out to me for advice. Which usually starts with "don't buy a gun unless you plan to train with it" Concerns over civil unrest have significantly factored into this, but there's also things like 3Gun[1][2] (think Ninja Warrior plus firearms) and cowboy action[3] (the same, but with old-timey firearms), which are massively popular. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPPIhfD5DF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPPIhfD5DF0 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRBcQSLgl20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRBcQSLgl20 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPMH5RnTqBg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPMH5RnTqBg
beenBoutIT 6y ago
Remington's 700 trigger mechanism has a design flaw that's caused dozens of deaths and hundreds of serious injuries. The company covered up the flaw and engaged in all sorts of shady business as opposed to issuing a massive recall. Remington's ammo on the other hand isn't bad and seems to be sold everywhere you can still buy bullets.
- manfredo 6y ago
  The supposed defect of the Remington 700 trigger is not nearly clear cut as it's portrayed. The supposed failures often could not be replicated, and many were found to have had their triggers adjusted out of normal tolerances or otherwise modified. As far as I know, an unmodified Remington 700 trigger has not been demonstrated to fire without actuating the trigger. People often allege malfunction and sue gun manufacturers for accidental discharges resulting in death or injury, when in reality they mishandled a loaded gun and pulled the trigger.
yaur 6y ago
I have an 870 which is a fine shotgun and not so expensive. I've got better guns in the safe, but when I want something to hunt rabbits or squirrel its still my go to.
- progre 6y ago
  The main model or the Express?
  - yaur 6y ago
    Express. The whole idea is to not drag an expensive gun through a brier patch.
    - blaser-waffle 6y ago
      Maverick 88 is cheaper and doesn't have Remington stigma. Fit and finish isn't amazing but I haven't heard anything bad about Mossberg triggers themselves. Mossberg has plastic safeties and plastic trigger guards, though :/
      - kerkeslager 6y ago
        If I'm not mistaken, Mossberg 500 parts are compatible with the 88. Both the safety and trigger guard are upgradeable to metal Mossberg 500 components. This gives you an inexpensive entry with an upgrade path. I'm not sure of my memory here so fact-check me with your gun shop before buying.
      - slenk 6y ago
        Great sub $200 shotgun for me
    - bobbyd3 6y ago
      I even think the more "expensive" 870 models are very reasonably priced for everything you get...
nappy 6y ago
Remington levered up and took on a ton of debt at the wrong time. The owners gambled and lost. It's a shame that people will lose their jobs over this.
- rhizome 6y ago
  Once private equity is in charge, people are going to lose their jobs anyway.
- kls 6y ago
  It was actually strategic by the private equity that bought them. They leveraged Remington to the hilt, extracted all of the value and then bankrupted the shell. Not that I am an advocate of what they do but it was actually brilliant. Gun companies on average don't go bankrupt, so they where able to significantly leverage Remington while hollowing it out and moving the assets to other companies. Leaving the shell for the debtors.
  - sitkack 6y ago
    Isn't that fraud?
  - michaelt 6y ago
    > Gun companies on average don't go bankrupt Maybe I'm biased because everything I know about guns comes from Forgotten Weapons [1], but my impression is the opposite: Very few guns are ever a commercial success, and absolutely loads of gun makers go out of business. [1] https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ https://www.forgottenweapons.com/
    - kls 6y ago
      Prototype guns are like startups you get a bunch of ideas and few stick. I probably should have clarified established gun companies and gun companies manufacturing established popular weapons. If I start a company building 1911's, AR's and AK's. Chances are the venture will be commercially successful. If I try to reintroduce the Bren-10 or a new concept gun, then I am playing a game of long odds unless I am an established gun designer with a track record of reliable designs e.g John Browning. Gun owners, other than collectors can be pretty fickle about reliability, it is why SIG, Glock and SAIGA do so well, due to the fact that they have multi-decade history of producing reliable guns.
walrus01 6y ago
Among people I know who track modern firearm technology I don't know a single person who would even contemplate buying a Remington. They are to modern guns what a Harley Davidson is to a modern motorcycle. People who care about good tech and value are buying things like CZs, aero precision and Anderson AR10/15 lowers and uppers, etc. Even the canik pistol from turkey is remarkably good quality. Savage offers good value for traditional bolt action rifles that can be used for many purposes.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  > buying things like CZs, aero precision and Anderson AR10/15 lowers and uppers, etc. Even the canik pistol from turkey is remarkably good quality A lot of the CZ stuff is made in Turkey, such as their over-under shotguns. I own a couple CZ rifles and they're decent. Never fired any Savage products but heard good things.
- rsync 6y ago
  "Among people I know who track modern firearm technology I don't know a single person who would even contemplate buying a Remington." Anecdotal, but we needed several workhorse .308 rifles and even considering the previous issues with the Rem 700 triggers, etc., I still chose that model. In addition to being a simple mechanism and easy to clean and maintain, it has a very high adoption rate which means parts and chassis replacements are readily available. Those attributes, combined with a very reasonable price, made it easy to select. If it were a single rifle, just for myself, I may have chosen a Savage model instead. On the other hand, my personal rifle now matches, and parts shares, and has identical maintenance, with all of the rest of them. I find that valuable.
  - brodouevencode 6y ago
    For hunting, a Savage 110 is a great tool IMO.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    I like that logic. Something a lot of enthusiats, fire arms, cars, etc.., don't get. Servicability and maintainability of a large fleet of X is such a big deal that you chose X for these reasons over Y. even if Y would, on the single unit level, be a tad better.
Overtonwindow 6y ago
I wouldn’t say the company is held in high regard, they’ve been sort of the Walmart of manufacturing for well over 100 years. Overpriced weapons, little innovation, where is companies like Ruger have continue to innovate for a reasonable price
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Walmart actually passes its low costs on to customers though.
mathattack 6y ago
Getting bought by a PE fund usually requires a ton of debt and allows little margin of error.
ARandomerDude 6y ago
I had a Remington 700 SPS – most inaccurate rifle I've ever owned. I couldn't believe it. Sad to see what's happened to them over the years.
bobbyd3 6y ago
Hard to go wrong with a classic like the 870 though...
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  They seem a little overpriced when you can buy a Mossberg 500 with an extra barrel for like 2/5 the cost. Sure it ain't machined from a piece of steel; who cares? It also ain't as heavy.
  - bobbyd3 6y ago
    I love the Mossberg 500 as well. I also prefer the location of the safety on the 500 (tang)
  - wcarron 6y ago
    Agreed. I grew up shooting a 500. It's like the gun version of a daily driver. Might pick up a new one when I move out of the city (no ranges near me)

komali2 6y ago

Sounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just to see what all the fuss was about. Seems much ado about nothing, why would I drop 8,000$ on a slab of iron, not even made in the USA anymore, when I could get twice the bike at half the weight for the same price from Suzuki?

FPGAhacker 6y ago
You can get a Harley for $8k?
- abfan1127 6y ago
  yeah, but its usually a cash deal on the side of the road where its broken down /s
- komali2 6y ago
  I think the Streets go for that?
lebaux 6y ago
Plenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship: 1. More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. 2. Better and more accessible competition from around the world. 3. Influencers. I know it is cool to hate them, but there are many building a brand around "one of us". As an example, one of the most popular female youtubers is doing shopping "hauls" in regular shops. You probably don't know that, why would HN watch beauty youtubers. But consider this. Linus Tech Tips is also influence marketing and you can see him talking about Linux, cheap peripherals, bashing Intel. Every category has its Linus. These people have tremendous pull, especially since younger people don't watch TV at all. 4. COVID-19. I speculate that the pandemic exposed how many companies have no reserves (either to low profits or simple because the executives are draining profits). 5. ...and many more, feel free to add.
- wahern 6y ago
  > Plenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship I only buy major brand-named items on Amazon, and only with Amazon as the seller. The one indispensable characteristic of branding, reputation, is more important than ever even though most brands' reputations are in the dumpster. Knock-offs of unknown or unreliable provenance just happen to be even worse. And even when you find a good non-branded item, reputation is still worse as non-branded items seem to change suppliers more regularly than the branded versions, and supply chain integrity is less trustworthy. In brick & mortar stores I always reach for the generic, in-house brand (assuming the price is lower) knowing that invariably they're made by the same manufacturer as one of the major brands. But contrast that with Amazon's in-house brands, where it's unlikely they source from the same manufacturer as the major brands, and also seem to change suppliers more regularly. American gun manufacturers have been outsourcing production for years. But that doesn't mean people no longer care about brands. Rather, many of those suppliers have made a name for themselves outright, or improved upon their previously lackluster reputation; those are the brands you often hear about today when people give recommendations.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    This has mostly been my experience (discounting the guns, as I don't have any interest in them). Amazon's actual brands like AmazonBasics seem to be relatively consistent in quality, but they have an awful lot of stuff sold by resellers whose names are clearly random capital letters strung together. During the pandemic, I've shifted more and more of my online shopping to Walmart.com, which -- while it has an increasing share of weird third-party sellers -- doesn't seem to have nearly the same level of out-and-out scams, and to ordering from manufacturers directly. Not only do I feel I'm more likely to get the real thing when I'm ordering that way, it's become surprisingly common for me to find cheaper prices than Amazon's.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. It's also a factor that so many companies nowadays see their brand built over decades by previous generations of workers and management as just another resource to suck dry. Shareholders are blinded to this but they ought to be angry, that is the long-term value of their investment being burnt to paper over management's lack of strategic vision.
takeda 6y ago
But does Suzuki make noise as if a muffler fell off?
- mPReDiToR 6y ago
  I know you were joking, but having ridden a Fat Boy and currently owning a 1l V-Strom I can say that the ridiculously noisy cans on my Suki are nicer to listen to at anything over 1,200 RPM. The Harley burbling away is really cool, but not when you're draging it up to cruising speed.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Stock Harleys aren't loud either. The loud ones are all aftermarket mods than any bike can have.
  - ultrarunner 6y ago
    Eh… I was just in a Harley dealer last weekend and a salescritter was riding one around the showroom (…yeah…) and it was loud. I know they have db requirements to be imported or whatever, but I don't get the sense that Harley-Davidson is just now building quiet bikes.
    - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
      Dealers will swap out pipes so what you heard wasn't necessarily stock.
zrobotics 6y ago
Speaking as someone who owns a 64 panhead and owned a 72 ironhead (rebuilt both from parts): Harleys have almost always been inferior bikes that have a strange sort of charm. Realistically, they occupy the same place as Ural, outdated bikes that have appeal mostly for style. The last time that Harley had anything cutting-edge (ignoring Buell) was likely the knucklehead, which was developed in the 30s. $8k will buy you a used one (not new), but there is a damn good reason there are used Harleys with essentially zero miles avaliable everywhere. I have fun riding my antique crap, but the new ones are such crappy bikes for the money. A new BMW is the same money, for a more comfortable bike that is less maintenance cost. However, I used to live on the route to Sturgis for most of Colorado, Arizona, and western Texas, and I saw probably 80% trailers vs bikes. People don't buy them to ride them, they buy them to fulfill their midlife crisis. To further derail, I would argue Jack Daniel's, Levis, and REI are in the same boat- they are grossly overpriced compared to superior competitors and mostly trade on name brand and perception of past quality.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  REI, really? What are the superior competitors? And do you mean specifically the house-branded gear or the store as a whole? Genuinely curious, since I still shop there. Prices aren't the best but I like the selection and the return policy. Plus the salesdroids actually seem familiar with the gear.
  - topkai22 6y ago
    I’m with you- REI does premium retail really well and that involves more then being just a brand. You can save money elsewhere for equivalent gear, but you won’t get the same service.
    - jacobkania 6y ago
      I’m a big REI fan. I’m not one of those people who hikes every week or anything, but I like to go backpacking and hiking when I can. I also have met lots of people who do the same, and REI is pretty highly regarded among most people. Their products might not be the top-end in every category, but I’ve rarely had an issue with anything bought from them. Plus their service is so outstanding, I’ve been taken care of any time there’s been a problem. It’s totally worth it to me to spend a little more, to get the peace of mind that it’s a fairly good product (they don’t sell anything horrible like you’ll get on amazon or a dept store), and that they’ll take care of any issue that does happen.
donw 6y ago
Harley screwed themselves in a lot of different ways. First, they fought to protect their market with tariffs on imported bikes -- okay, fair enough -- but then did absolutely nothing to either grow that market, or innovate on their products at all. They just kept making the same bike, the same way, for a looooooooong time. Harley's branding was 100% focused on the "60's Rebel". The Hells Angel, or the dentist that wanted to pretend he was. The plethora of Japanese manufacturers, instead, worked to bring bikes to the masses. They made more reliable bikes, which were cheaper and easier to own, and marketed them to everybody. Dads. Moms. University students. Normal people, the kind that aren't keen on a Friday-night bar fight. If Harley had been run by forward-thinking management, they would have worked to create affiliate brands aimed at a variety of different demographics, and really worked to innovate on their reliability and quality. Buell was an attempt at this, but it was too little, too late.
- jacobush 6y ago
  And more efficient manufacturing for the conservative stuff. And better reliability, because really why not?
emmelaich 6y ago
Yes! Reminds of the AMF years of HD.
goatinaboat 6y ago
Sounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just to see what all the fuss was about. Seems much ado about nothing, why would I drop 8,000$ on a slab of iron, not even made in the USA anymore, when I could get twice the bike at half the weight for the same price from Suzuki? Even the Hell's Angels regret choosing Harley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Barger#2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Barger#2000s
wcarron 6y ago
I'll do ya 1 better: I had the displeasure of actually buying a new Harley (I was young and stupid). The street 500/750 are the worst of the worst from HD. The Iron 883 is the smallest "real" harley. And it's a completely different feel from the streets. However, it was a trashcan of a bike. I was always fixing weird issues, the HD dealership absolutely sucked in every facet from timeliness of service, to prices, to the guy at the service desk just not being a cunt. I upgraded many parts just to get the damn thing to perform at a reasonable level. Thankfully, I was hit by a car and my bike was totalled. This freed me to purchase a KTM 790 duke which is 160lbs lighter, with double the horsepower, 20% more torque, 80% longer service intervals, all for significantly less than the Iron 883. Harley-Davidson is literally hemmorhaging cash. Their main demo is aging out of the market and they haven't been able to sell to millenials because millenials aren't stupid and go buy a Yamaha MT-09 or Suzuki, etc for waaay less. And I'm hearing whispers that H-D willl be axing their new forays into ADV, standard, and E-bikes.
- jdhn 6y ago
  >I'm hearing whispers that H-D willl be axing their new forays into ADV, standard, and E-bikes. At that point they might as well start winding down the company. I read reviews of the Livewire (their e-bike) and most people seemed to like it despite the very high price.
  - wcarron 6y ago
    Yeah, sure. The fit and finish on the Livewire is great. But who can afford a $30k+ ebike? Especially one that gets barely 100 miles to the tank? Not young americans, that's for sure. Personally, I can't wait until H-D bites the dust. Hopefully once and for all. They're incredibly overpriced, underpowered, overweight, technologically obsolete bikes (aside from their 1 electric model that sold terribly) with dealerships that suck at customer service (and also charge way too much per hour)
- dharmab 6y ago
  You know reliability is bad when the KTM is an upgrade! (Former 390 owner who had to warranty their bike...) Even if you stay in cruisers- Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha and Indian quality compared to Harley is insane. It's as if the bikes were made in a different century.

gnarbarian 6y ago

Spot on. They are mostly a brand. None I've seen hold a candle to my 300wm Tikka t3 lite stainless I picked up for $600.

throwaway4711 6y ago
I’m sure that can’t hold a candle to my tactical warhead I picked up for 10k BTC.
borkt 6y ago
Good buy! I have a Sako finnlight 300 WSM and kinda wish I went with the WM just for ease of finding ammo, but the kick on the finnlight is pretty fatiguing as is. Completely pays off in the mountains though, How is 300wm on the tikka lite?
- gnarbarian 6y ago
  Painful. Rifle weighs around 6.5lbs. it needs a stock pad to be usable. And if you go through a box of ammo at the range you will be sore for a week. But it's accurate to around .5 MOA and I stick a giant Burris eliminator 3 scope on there to take some of the bite out of the recoil.
  - kerkeslager 6y ago
    A muzzle brake might do wonders for you. I can't speak for 300WSM, but in 308, a muzzle brake takes it from "I'll shoot 10 rounds and regret it the next day", to "I'll shoot 50 rounds and stop from soreness, but have no shoulder bruising the next day."
    - gnarbarian 6y ago
      Yup I've got a fancy brake on my PTR 91. Can shoot .308 through that sucker all day. The Tikka doesn't have a threaded barrel though so I'd have to take it to a gunsmith. Which I'll eventually get around to...
  - 6y ago

axegon_ 6y ago

Same, as far as firearms are concerned. But I do own several other Remington products and the quality is astonishing. One of which is a pocket knife and it's staggering how well made it is. And how outrageously sharp it is for that matter. 3 days before the pandemic started I nearly cut off my left index finger with it...

zrobotics 6y ago
I will say, those are licensed products. They may be good, but that's luck of the draw, they have just sold the brand name off to some 3rd party to make a specific product. For what it's worth, I bought a remington-branded bone saw ~3 years back, and it was absolute garbage. It failed to even finish field dressing an elk, and all that was required was one cut of a few inches. It's a shame, their older products were right up there with the likes of Starrett as the pinnacle of precision manufacturing in the US, but poor management can kill any company regardless of the quality of their products. It is sort of ironic that, even given the US's crazy gun culture, most of the iconic American brands have been acquired (Winchester->FN) by other firms or been diluted to irrelevance (Marlin->Remington).
- markdown 6y ago
  Probably made in China. For high quality bone saws, look no further than Saudi Arabia.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  > American brands have been acquired (Winchester->FN) FN still makes good stuff, though. They're also solvent -- no pump-and-dump investing games here -- and supply lots of gear to global militarizes, including the US military, e.g. the SAW is the FN Minimi, which is made under license in South Carolina.
- kerkeslager 6y ago
  Marlin is really sad. A Marlin 336 from 1985 and a Marlin 336 from 2019 look the same at first glance, but you only have to cycle the lever once to realize something has changed for the worse. Old timers will tell you that the lever will smooth out with use, which may be true, but my experience is that it will break and require a gunsmith before that happens.

onetimemanytime 6y ago

>>Some say it was linked to it's acquisition by Cerberus Capital. History repeats itself. As if these companies care about the brand reputation over decades, they just want to milk it and then sell it to idiots (public) that recognize the name. People are buying more guns than ever, so it was probably a planned bankruptcy

cenal 6y ago
Corporate bankruptcy fueled by private equity? That goes together like peanut butter and jelly.
sharken 6y ago
EDIT: Point taken with the downvotes. This feels very similar to the Intel story, except it seems that Intel is aware and will rectify the problem. But less gun companies overall is a Good Thing in my opinion.
- ponker 6y ago
  I can't think of two more dissimilar stories than Remington and Intel. This is like saying "The Color Purple" feels very similar to "The Da Vinci Code."
- donw 6y ago
  Remington has been on the rocks for awhile. Low quality, high prices, and outdated technology. Today's buyer wants a lightened AR-15 with holographic sights, not grandpa's double-barrel shotgun. I suspect you're being downvoted from the "less gun companies is a good thing" comment. You would be surprised how popular shooting has become in the US, especially, over the last decade or so, and how diverse the gun community has become. Not to mention how many new brands there are. Twenty years ago, you'd walk into a gun shop, and it'd be... well, let's be kind and say "massively sketchy", with a lot of graying beards and a not-insignificant inventory of items with confederate branding. Nowadays, that's not really the case in most places (which is good!). My favorite range has an espresso bar, and reminds me more of an early-stage WeWork than a gun range. The median age has trended sharply downwards, and although this data isn't tracked, I strongly suspect that there are a lot of first-time gun owners as well. Anecdotally, I'm sort of the "liberal gun guy" amongst my circle of friends, and people that I never thought would want to purchase a firearm have been reaching out to me for advice. Which usually starts with "don't buy a gun unless you plan to train with it" Concerns over civil unrest have significantly factored into this, but there's also things like 3Gun[1][2] (think Ninja Warrior plus firearms) and cowboy action[3] (the same, but with old-timey firearms), which are massively popular. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPPIhfD5DF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPPIhfD5DF0 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRBcQSLgl20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRBcQSLgl20 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPMH5RnTqBg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPMH5RnTqBg

beenBoutIT 6y ago

Remington's 700 trigger mechanism has a design flaw that's caused dozens of deaths and hundreds of serious injuries. The company covered up the flaw and engaged in all sorts of shady business as opposed to issuing a massive recall. Remington's ammo on the other hand isn't bad and seems to be sold everywhere you can still buy bullets.

manfredo 6y ago
The supposed defect of the Remington 700 trigger is not nearly clear cut as it's portrayed. The supposed failures often could not be replicated, and many were found to have had their triggers adjusted out of normal tolerances or otherwise modified. As far as I know, an unmodified Remington 700 trigger has not been demonstrated to fire without actuating the trigger. People often allege malfunction and sue gun manufacturers for accidental discharges resulting in death or injury, when in reality they mishandled a loaded gun and pulled the trigger.

yaur 6y ago

I have an 870 which is a fine shotgun and not so expensive. I've got better guns in the safe, but when I want something to hunt rabbits or squirrel its still my go to.

progre 6y ago
The main model or the Express?
- yaur 6y ago
  Express. The whole idea is to not drag an expensive gun through a brier patch.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    Maverick 88 is cheaper and doesn't have Remington stigma. Fit and finish isn't amazing but I haven't heard anything bad about Mossberg triggers themselves. Mossberg has plastic safeties and plastic trigger guards, though :/
    - kerkeslager 6y ago
      If I'm not mistaken, Mossberg 500 parts are compatible with the 88. Both the safety and trigger guard are upgradeable to metal Mossberg 500 components. This gives you an inexpensive entry with an upgrade path. I'm not sure of my memory here so fact-check me with your gun shop before buying.
    - slenk 6y ago
      Great sub $200 shotgun for me
  - bobbyd3 6y ago
    I even think the more "expensive" 870 models are very reasonably priced for everything you get...

nappy 6y ago

Remington levered up and took on a ton of debt at the wrong time. The owners gambled and lost. It's a shame that people will lose their jobs over this.

rhizome 6y ago
Once private equity is in charge, people are going to lose their jobs anyway.
kls 6y ago
It was actually strategic by the private equity that bought them. They leveraged Remington to the hilt, extracted all of the value and then bankrupted the shell. Not that I am an advocate of what they do but it was actually brilliant. Gun companies on average don't go bankrupt, so they where able to significantly leverage Remington while hollowing it out and moving the assets to other companies. Leaving the shell for the debtors.
- sitkack 6y ago
  Isn't that fraud?
- michaelt 6y ago
  > Gun companies on average don't go bankrupt Maybe I'm biased because everything I know about guns comes from Forgotten Weapons [1], but my impression is the opposite: Very few guns are ever a commercial success, and absolutely loads of gun makers go out of business. [1] https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ https://www.forgottenweapons.com/
  - kls 6y ago
    Prototype guns are like startups you get a bunch of ideas and few stick. I probably should have clarified established gun companies and gun companies manufacturing established popular weapons. If I start a company building 1911's, AR's and AK's. Chances are the venture will be commercially successful. If I try to reintroduce the Bren-10 or a new concept gun, then I am playing a game of long odds unless I am an established gun designer with a track record of reliable designs e.g John Browning. Gun owners, other than collectors can be pretty fickle about reliability, it is why SIG, Glock and SAIGA do so well, due to the fact that they have multi-decade history of producing reliable guns.

walrus01 6y ago

Among people I know who track modern firearm technology I don't know a single person who would even contemplate buying a Remington. They are to modern guns what a Harley Davidson is to a modern motorcycle. People who care about good tech and value are buying things like CZs, aero precision and Anderson AR10/15 lowers and uppers, etc. Even the canik pistol from turkey is remarkably good quality. Savage offers good value for traditional bolt action rifles that can be used for many purposes.

blaser-waffle 6y ago
> buying things like CZs, aero precision and Anderson AR10/15 lowers and uppers, etc. Even the canik pistol from turkey is remarkably good quality A lot of the CZ stuff is made in Turkey, such as their over-under shotguns. I own a couple CZ rifles and they're decent. Never fired any Savage products but heard good things.
rsync 6y ago
"Among people I know who track modern firearm technology I don't know a single person who would even contemplate buying a Remington." Anecdotal, but we needed several workhorse .308 rifles and even considering the previous issues with the Rem 700 triggers, etc., I still chose that model. In addition to being a simple mechanism and easy to clean and maintain, it has a very high adoption rate which means parts and chassis replacements are readily available. Those attributes, combined with a very reasonable price, made it easy to select. If it were a single rifle, just for myself, I may have chosen a Savage model instead. On the other hand, my personal rifle now matches, and parts shares, and has identical maintenance, with all of the rest of them. I find that valuable.
- brodouevencode 6y ago
  For hunting, a Savage 110 is a great tool IMO.
- hef19898 6y ago
  I like that logic. Something a lot of enthusiats, fire arms, cars, etc.., don't get. Servicability and maintainability of a large fleet of X is such a big deal that you chose X for these reasons over Y. even if Y would, on the single unit level, be a tad better.

Overtonwindow 6y ago

I wouldn’t say the company is held in high regard, they’ve been sort of the Walmart of manufacturing for well over 100 years. Overpriced weapons, little innovation, where is companies like Ruger have continue to innovate for a reasonable price

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Walmart actually passes its low costs on to customers though.

mathattack 6y ago

Getting bought by a PE fund usually requires a ton of debt and allows little margin of error.

ARandomerDude 6y ago

I had a Remington 700 SPS – most inaccurate rifle I've ever owned. I couldn't believe it. Sad to see what's happened to them over the years.

bobbyd3 6y ago

Hard to go wrong with a classic like the 870 though...

scottlocklin 6y ago
They seem a little overpriced when you can buy a Mossberg 500 with an extra barrel for like 2/5 the cost. Sure it ain't machined from a piece of steel; who cares? It also ain't as heavy.
- bobbyd3 6y ago
  I love the Mossberg 500 as well. I also prefer the location of the safety on the 500 (tang)
- wcarron 6y ago
  Agreed. I grew up shooting a 500. It's like the gun version of a daily driver. Might pick up a new one when I move out of the city (no ranges near me)