14 ms·

The article should have buried sony for how egregious they are. They require the app to collect location information, and ear. https://www.sony.com/electronics/

• mandelbrotwurst 6y ago
  Geez, that's brutal. I'm glad I'm seeing this....it never crossed my mind that this sort of thing would be something that might get built into headphones. If I want to avoid this sort of thing, I'm thinking / hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that require an app. Does that seem right?
  • monksy 6y ago
    I mean you can't really avoid it. It's pushed on to you and theres no clear understanding about how tied the headphones are until you buy it. The WH-1000MX are very good headphones, but sony gonna shit the bed. (PSN anyone)
    • jmole 6y ago
      They're a company that makes a lot of decisions from the viewpoint of participants in a high-trust society like Japan. Many times, those viewpoints don't translate well to other markets.
      • monksy 6y ago
        That trust is hugely misplaced. They frequently make terrible decisions that negatively affect others. - Them being hugely defensive about the fan backlash over Tlou2 https://www.altchar.com/game-news/sony-contacts-website-over-negative-the-last-of-us-part-2-review-aMeDH5F1BrLB https://www.altchar.com/game-news/sony-contacts-website-over... - They've removed early release credentials from reviewers who give sour reviews - The shit return policy for the digital only games - The way they are trying to push digital only etc. I realize Sony isn't the only one doing this but with every iteration it feels like they are trying to be as crap as possible.
      • taneq 6y ago
        I don't know if it's high trust as much as it's authoritarian. You do what you're told by the company and that's that.
    • mandelbrotwurst 6y ago
      Hmmm....well, I'm at least aware of the issue now based on this conversation and will definitely at least try to determine whether it applies to any of my future purchases.
  • josteink 6y ago
    > If I want to avoid this sort of thing, I'm thinking / hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that require an app. Or just get one with a good old 3.5mm jack. Beyer Dynamic, AKG and Shure have several options much cheaper than these Bose or Sony headsets which still give you at least 10x the audio-performance. For headsets, if you care about usability, portability, longevity and performance, wired is still the no-brainer choice.
    • p1esk 6y ago
      Good luck with this if you want state of the art in noise canceling
      • josteink 6y ago
        I’ve had the best heat headphones Bose has to offer in the Quiet Comfort series and to me this “state of the art noise cancellation” sounds like artefact- and distortion-inducing noise. I’ve returned them and replaced them with much better, naturally damping, closed head-phones. And the audio is so much better, at a fraction of the cost. Noise cancellation in the hifi-space is just snake oil, and I’m not having it.
        • andrewflnr 6y ago
          Does... does anyone actually think noise-cancelling is for increasing audio quality? I always thought it was just for handling obnoxiously noisy environments, like airplanes, screaming children, etc.
          • mandelbrotwurst 6y ago
            No one who's thinking through how it works, which is by picking up the ambient noise and then modifying the output to include the inverse on top of whatever you're listening to.
          • _delirium 6y ago
            Aside, but noise cancelling (at least what's currently on the market) doesn't really do much for screaming children. It only handles relatively constant noise well, ideally low/mid-frequency constant noise. Great at silencing stuff like airplane engines, wind, HVAC hum, freeway rumble, etc. But not very effective for people talking, crying babies, car horns, ambulance sirens, slamming doors, etc.
  • squarefoot 6y ago
    "I'm thinking / hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that require an app." Every effing time they convince users to install an app they magically have a tool to steal peoples personal data. Not just headphones: the kids toy drone can be controlled using an app from the cellphone? The security camera just purchased doesn't use standard protocols over a web browser but needs its own app? The IoT system doesn't use standard protocols as well but forces the use of their app? Bad, bad and bad! And so on for every piece of hardware that needs a proprietary app that -betting all my horses on that- will ask for full permissions to access everything. In this context, headphones are among the easily replaceable accessories with secure and better sounding ones. Just get wired ones and avoid architectures that force the use of wireless phones just to make a bigger business out of a misfeature.
    • mandelbrotwurst 6y ago
      I am aware of these issues and yet also sometimes prefer to have headphones without wires.
      • nitemice 6y ago
        You could get a 'dumb' bluetooth adaptor for your wired-but-cable-changable headphones. e.g. https://thebtunes.com/ https://thebtunes.com/ Or you could just get some basic noise-isolating bluetooth headphones. It sounds like most/all of these headphones that spy on people are ones with active noise cancelling.
  • Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    You have to do prior research. Bose don't tell you on the box that the headphones are bricked until you connect it to the app to do an update before it will allow you to connect it as a normal bluetooth device.
  • taneq 6y ago
    > I'm thinking / hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that require an app. I'd hope so - as far as I know there's no way for a Bluetooth headset device to get internet access via the thing it's paired with. It's getting harder and harder to be confident about this kind of thing, though.
• niklasd 6y ago
  I recently tried out wireless noise-cancelling headphones from both Bose and Sony, and (the important privacy issues aside) the user experience with these apps is just horrible. You unpack your Bose headphone, eager to use them. But before that, you have to download an app on the iPhone, then download a software update program on your laptop, which in turn opens a program in the browser that downloads an update, then you connect the headphones with a wire to the laptop that the update gets installed, and THEN you can start using them. I send both back and now I'm a happy AirPod user.
  • riquito 6y ago
    I don't know about Bose, but you can connect the Sony headphones with the normal bluetooth pairing, there's no app required
    • monksy 6y ago
      Good luck when internal settings get changed (as in internal volume)
      • 0_____0 6y ago
        long time user of the sony wh-1000xm2. never have had any such issue. i have noticed that it seems like the headset and phone have independent volume controls but both phone and headset have physical controls, no app required.
      • eternalban 6y ago
        I just ran into this very issue. I opted out of downloading anything. It was working fine until just now for whatever reason the volume is so low that I can hear a background hiss. The source laptop volume is maxed out. If this is Sony's way of forcing me to use their app, they guessed wrong. I just bought these and am considering returning it.
        • vladvasiliu 6y ago
          Did you try raising the volume directly on the headphones? If it's a WH-XM1000, you can do that by sliding the finger up on the right earphone. For some reason mine's volume works as expected on an iphone (phone and headphone control the same volume) but on a pc (windows / mac / linux) the controls work separately...
• flyinghamster 6y ago
  I am fervently glad that I'm happy with my WH-1000XM3 in its stock configuration. I took one look at what the permissions they wanted for the app, and said "No effing way." I shouldn't have been too surprised, though, given that it was Sony that brought us rootkits on music CDs.
  • uoylj 6y ago
    The only reason I keep the app is to turn on/off "wind noise reduction" while walking by the sea... reconsidering if this is worth it.
• Teledhil 6y ago
  I have the WH-1000XM2 and the location permission is optional if you want the app to change noise cancelling profiles according to what you are doing (walking, running, on the bus). The ear scanner is another optional thing you can do to improve the 360 audio which only works on a few apps.
• MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  Interesting, didn't know they used photos of the user's ears. There has been research done on identifying people by their ears. [0] > You can't use it because it requires the internet to get the latest _required tos_ to use your headphones. Can't you just uninstall the app entirely? They're standard Bluetooth headphones, right? [0] https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2010/10/new-method-to-identify-people-by-their-ears.page https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2010/10/new-method-to-ide...
• notatoad 6y ago
  as far as i can tell, the only thing the app does is dynamically change the noise cancellation level based on your location and accelerometer, so if it doesn't have location permission it's kind of pointless to use the app. the headphones still work fine without the app, they're just bluetooth headphones that the OS can interface with directly if you don't want the location-based profiles.
• dragonsngoblins 6y ago
  I've been using my Sony W-1000XM3s with my Android phone for months and I haven't had to install an app. The only thing the app would get me is a bunch of equalizer shit (which my music player could do and I never use anyway), dynamic noise cancelling of some form (which I'm not sure why I'd ever use, just an on/off toggle is good enough for me). As shitty as the app collecting data is it isn't as if the app is required for me to have had an excellent experience with these headphones so I'm not really all that bothered that the app is invasive. If any real functionality was locked behind it I'd be annoyed, but honestly the app seems like an afterthought with no real purpose other than "EVERYTHING NEEDS AN APP" type thinking.
  • patcon 6y ago
    First off, I say the following as kindly-spoken words :) I'm grateful that you and I both know to be critically-minded, and we understand the difference between essential features and data-grabs, but honestly... my Dad needed me standing over the sketchy wifi thermostat (that required an app and Facebook login), loudly complaining about how invasive it was, to even understand that this was not OK and worth returning the product. And he's spent years osmosing conversations with his tech-savvy, upper-middle class son. Further, many people take for granted that they can trust a brand like Sony, so they're not in critical-thinking mode about this stuff -- it's quite confusing to know what is reasonable when you're just trying to get the thing done that was literally just a male-female plug before. I do believe you're a caring person (most ppl are), but the practical effect of your position would lead someone to judge that you don't actually care about the data of the vast majority of normal people across many demographics. I kinda suspect that isn't true, so I'm wondering if maybe you'd find some dissonance in your own views on closer inspection <3
    • dragonsngoblins 6y ago
      I do care about people's data in general, but also I don't recall the documentation for the device pushing the app much or at all and instead just suggesting you use whatever your device's way of connecting to bluetooth devices is, though I might be wrong there. If it did then it is a bit worse than I recall. However if the app isn't really pushed at all then this is so minor an infraction compared to so many others happening in the technology space it honestly doesn't really illicit a response from me. I do want to point out that not really giving a damn isn't the same as thinking it is a morally ok thing to do. I definitely agree that they shouldn't be doing it, but again given the state of the industry I'm honestly just glad the app isn't required. Lastly I do kind of think personal responsibility has to enter into things somewhere. I understand that the average joe doesn't really understand how these work, and that the information you share is greater leakier than you might think it is given how things are phrased - and I absolutely agree that it is terrible. However for years now high profile data breaches have been a thing. The fact that the average joe hasn't defaulted to a "I don't understand why this device/app wants X information or how it could use it, therefore I won't use this app" is what is letting companies get away with this kind of thing in the first place. You don't need technical competence to be wary of this stuff (in fact I know someone who isn't technically competent who is concerned and they ask my opinion on things).
• waheoo 6y ago
  This exact thing has happened to me. Blew my fucking mind. But I'm also a long time suck fony guy so, I basically accepted it as karma for buying this witch doctor voodoo noise cancelling anyway.
• trissylegs 6y ago
  This was raised when Australia rolled out its' Contract tracing app. On Android if you need bluetooth access you have to ask for locat ion access, because it's possible to derive location from bluetooth data. (Like wifi data).
• andrewmackrodt 6y ago
  I've owned the Sony WH-1000XM2 for several years and while the Android app location collection is unnecessary, ear data is entirely optional. You have a valid point that the app can misbehave regarding updates and lack of internet connection. I personally find myself never using the app, it only really provides 3 somewhat useful features; equalisation (which forces the audio codec to SBC which is inferior to LDAC so I've never used it); automatic profile switching, e.g. ambient sound if detecting you are walking and finally, the level of noise cancellation to apply. This model has a dedicated switch on the headphones to change the profile where a long press even "calibrates" the sound based on atmospheric pressure, not sure I buy into that gimmick, but they're perfectly useable without the app. I have them paired with Android, Windows, macOS and Linux and all work perfectly (with the minor exception being Linux does not support Bluetooth absolute volume). The headphones also support volume control from the unit for devices which have an older Bluetooth stack which does not support absolute volume. Overall, I agree the app needs improvement but I'm not sure there's anything that warrants burying the company of these decisions. I suspect for many users, the app is entirely useless and not worth installing.
  • strogonoff 6y ago
    I immediately deleted Sony’s app after disabling EQ and probably some other gimmicks on my XM3s—has worked alright with Apple devices. (Well, as ‘alright’ as could be expected. Switching between devices requires slow re-pairing through long power button press, but I don’t think Sony’s app would’ve resolved that.)
    • andrewmackrodt 6y ago
      This is one area Bose are notably better in, i.e. connected to two devices simultaneously. I find the XM2 can remember pairing for at least 2 devices, typically my phone and laptop but I have to manually disconnect from one device and connect using the other when switching. This is quicker than entering pairing mode but still an upto 30 second process, but much of that time is due to the awkward Bluetooth settings menu in recent versions of gnome.
• panpanna 6y ago
  > Clicking "don't accept" pushes you back to the tos screen. This is a textbook example of a GDPR violation. In fact, it is a clear violation of the first of the five requirements for consent. See recital 43: "... Consent is presumed not to be freely given if it does not allow separate consent to be given to different personal data processing operations despite it being appropriate in the individual case, or if the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is dependent on the consent despite such consent not being necessary for such performance."