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Sledding athletes are taking their lives
- gonzo41 6y agoThis is a pretty sad article. I wonder if they've ever considered g-suits to mitigate the pressure on the body. I'm not sure if it'd be effective but fighter pilots have a pretty similar set of extremes that they work in.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y agoIt seems like the pressure isn't the main issue, the vibration/impact is. Better helmet padding may be able to help significantly here.
- gonzo41 6y agoI was thinking along the lines that putting high G pressure on your circulatory system is probably putting a lot of stress on the brain that otherwise wound be there. The sled head they talk about seems like it's almost mild hypooxia or something.
- asciident 6y agoFrom my naive understanding based on reading the article, I don't see how sledding is any more of a sport than a video game combined with fear tolerence.
- irjustin 6y agohow... how did you come to that conclusion?
- mirimir 6y agoNot OP, but I'm guessing that they think athletes just contribute mass.
- runawaybottle 6y agoGenerally they also believe playing/watching sports is mostly pointless and appeal to lesser intelligences. Apparently they’ve never done a thorough exploration of existentialism or nihilism given how smart they are.
- kjs3 6y agoWhich is..."not right" is the absolutely most charitable response to 'thinking' that sad.
- klyrs 6y agoI don't know of any video game where players can actually die if they hit a wall.
- ponker 6y agoI’m 14 and this is deep
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago> I don't see how sledding is any more of a sport than a video game combined with fear tolerence Video games are a valid group of sports, so that's not a very meaningful assertion.
- kjs3 6y agoYou should get out of your parents basement some time. Things that happen in the real world, especially those that involve physical experience and physical risk, are tangibly different than things that happen in video games.
- Oreb 6y agoElite sledders are phenomenal athletes, often from a background of sprinting or Olympic weightlifting. Accelerating the sled takes tremendous power and strength.
- WalterBright 6y agoHow terribly sad. Perhaps the speeds of the sled tracks could be reduced. A helmet designed to blunt the millisecond g force spikes could also be developed.
- elgenie 6y agoThe issue with helmet design is likely the same one football players face: that the place the impact absorbing material needs to go is between skull and brain. There’s no wearable helmet that’s going to change the result of skull being decelerated or accelerated as the brain keeps going. A strap or some padding that absorbs fleeting contact with the ice maybe has a chance to make a difference, but there are so few people involved in these sports that testing changes scientifically will be very hard.
- CGamesPlay 6y agoI'm no expert on helmet design, but surely you can absorb that force elsewhere, as long as the acceleration on the skull is damped? Degenerate case: a car's airbag does not go between my brain and my skull, yet it does prevent my brain from slamming into my skull.
- selectodude 6y agoNo it doesn't, it prevents your skull from slamming into the steering wheel, lowering the forces inside your skull due to the longer time for deceleration is simply a side effect. Brain buckets are awesome for keeping your skull in one piece. Always have been.
- Swizec 6y agoWouldn’t the fact that your skull decelerates slower against an airbag than against a steering wheel mean that your brain hits your skull with less force?
- elliottkember 6y ago
- burlesona 6y agoArticle isn’t readable on mobile. Any link to just the text?
- Simon_says 6y agohttps://pastebin.com/fHqu5eXF https://pastebin.com/fHqu5eXF
- maxpanas 6y agoThanks a million
- Markoff 6y agoIt should be perfectly readable in any Chromium browser on Android, care to post screenshot?
- thomasz 6y agoCan't scroll past the initial video in Firefox either. Seriously, don't fuck with scrolling.
- Markoff 6y agoone more reason to not use buggy broken Firefox, it works fine in outdated Kiwi browser on Android
- Traubenfuchs 6y agoSame on Chrome...
- tpayne84 6y agoView it in "Reader" mode.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago> On Feb. 22, 2013, Morris attached an accelerometer to his helmet, then launched his body down a 1,500-meter track at the sliding center in Whistler, British Columbia, which is considered the fastest track in the world and was a venue for the 2010 Winter Olympics. Bobsleigh has been a feature of the Winter Olympics since 1924 [1]. Yet it might have taken until 2013 for someone to measure its g force on its athletes' heads. One would think that when something is developed to the point of an international sport, it's certainly been measured. Been tested. But the disturbing or revealing or inspiring truth is, most of our normality has not been scientifically considered. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobsleigh_at_the_Winter_Olympics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobsleigh_at_the_Winter_Olympi...
- pengaru 6y agoExcept measuring G-forces acting on a helmet doesn't directly relate to the forces acting on the head within it.
- nimih 6y agoWhy not? To me (a layperson in the physics of helmets and brains), they would seem to be quite directly related, especially when the cause of the gees is not related to an impact.
- ashtonkem 6y agoHelmets are padded, deform, or have suspension systems to decelerate any impulse that the helmet takes. This should cause a very different g-force spike between what the shell of the helmet experiences, and what the wearer experiences. If the helmet didn't decelerate any impulse to the head, the range of impacts that it could theoretically protect the wearer from would actually be quite narrow.
- frutiger 6y ago> If the helmet didn't decelerate any impulse to the head, the range of impacts that it could theoretically protect the wearer from would actually be quite narrow. This is wonderful understatement: “If the g-forces between the helmet and the brain weren’t different, the helmet wasn’t a helmet at all!”
- xkcd-sucks 6y agoAnecdotally, I have a friend on a national skeleton team. He says he's a bit dopey but it's okay because he has a girlfriend to take care of him, and attributes it to lateral acceleration and breathing difficulty. This is after maybe 5 years at longest
- cheeze 6y ago> but it's okay because he has a girlfriend to take care of him Is that okay?
- growlist 6y agoWell that sentence is ambiguous. It could be that the guy on the skeleton team said the following: "I am a bit dopey, but it's okay because I have my girlfriend to take care of me"
- im3w1l 6y agoThat's the only way to read I was able to find. What's the other?
- hug 6y agoHe says he’s a bit dopey, but I’m okay with that because he has a girlfriend to take care of him.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- kgwgk 6y agoIn that case the subject of the "attributes it" is lost, while with the "he says he's a bit dopey but [he says] it's okay" reading it naturally flows into "and [he] attributes it".
- imtringued 6y ago
- ykevinator 6y agoWhy are people so opposed to getting jobs? Sledding is not a job and its not athletic
- inamberclad 6y agoThose g numbers are insane. I would appreciate an FFT instead of a time-series graph but this is far beyond even a rocket launch.
- t0mas88 6y agoThere is a huge difference between a prolonged G-force (like a rocket launch or a fighter jet turning) and an instant reading (helmet hitting ice). A prolonged G-force in human performance studies in aviation is defined as 1 second or longer. A reading of more than +10g in the Z-axis will black out almost all humans. While instant readings as high as 200g have been measured in a survivable car crash. Falling from 1m and stopping in 1cm gets you an instant reading of 100g. And yet that doesn't sound very deadly at all.
- jmiserez 6y ago>Falling from 1m and stopping in 1cm gets you an instant reading of 100g. And yet that doesn't sound very deadly at all. It does though, if you fall directly on your head from that height. Even with a helmet that seems dangerous.
- inamberclad 6y agoI mean the gs/Hz spectrum of a rocket launch.
- gnramires 6y agoThis seems totally unacceptable. We should stop having this sport in the Olympics (implicitly supporting this madness) -- of course athletes are free to do as they chose, but we cannot encourage such pointless self-destruction and misery. An alternative to save the sport is completely redesign it to limit maximum accelerations. Usually injuries follow power laws so I doubt even that much reduction would be necessary (shed maximum accel to 1/3 current and I bet lifetime injuries could become acceptable). Mandatory equipment changes would probably help as well.
- matz1 6y ago>pointless self-destruction and misery. Maybe its pointless for you, fair enough but it can be meaningfull for other people, i myself think it's interesting.
- SenHeng 6y agomatz should not be downvoted. Humans do lots of objectively pointless self-destruction like things as a hobby with increasing risks. Things like human powered flight, aerogliding and sky diving, parkour, climbing steep things with and without gear, driving at high speeds around bends, 'explore' the wild, many of which we celebrate, reward and encourage.
- redis_mlc 6y agoYou're presenting a false dichotomy. Most people agree that the following should not be allowed in high schools because of the risk of injury: - spearing in American football - heading in American soccer Also: - most of the wingsuit pioneers are already dead - you can carry a transmitter when in the wild to avoid wasting millions of dollars in rescue searches - American NFL players have an average career of only 3 years, so accepting brain damage is absurd.
- racl101 6y agoWell said. Depending on people's level of courage, or lackthereof, all sports might seem like pointless self-destruction and misery. Heck, even basketball or ice curling. Heck, I would never in my right-mind try grinding a rail on a skateboard after seeing some kid break his leg on a bad landing. But just cause it looks insane to me doesn't mean it has no value or merit. Not to mention that it makes a fun video game on the PS2.
- saeranv 6y agoUgh, I cannot get beyond the NYTimes paywall, ever. Something about their paywall standards blocks me out pretty much every time.
- DavidVoid 6y agoIf you're using firefox the click on the padlock next to the URL and clear the site's cookies and data, then reload the page.
- Noumenon72 6y agoThis is how the world is shaping up -- winner take all, but so much competition to be that winner that the winner's life isn't worth it either.
- imtringued 6y agoCompetition is weird. There is only one winner and the winner probably gets bored of being the best despite all the sacrifices. Meanwhile all the "losers" look up to the winner and dream of being the winner themselves. I guess it boils down to jealousy. Someone has something you don't have, it doesn't actually matter what the "something" is, it also doesn't matter if you harm yourself in the process.
- viklove 6y agoThat's a weird way to look at it; so negative. I think for most people it is more about pride than jealousy.
- partyboat1586 6y agoThis is the post religion world, late stage capitalism balls to the walls, no holds barred, sky is the limit libertarian life. Work hard play hard etc. I hope we can evolve past this mindset to something that is better for people. We need to focus on the health of the human race over the achievements of the human race if we want to survive and thrive long term.
- SenHeng 6y agoJeremy Clarkson did a pretty good piece on how scary bobsleighs are 10 years ago on Top Gear. Worth taking a peak to see what all the fuss is about. https://youtu.be/xsac2agog48 https://youtu.be/xsac2agog48 And for those interested in what a skeleton looks and feels like. Here's a more recent video. https://youtu.be/BzxS-3vO6Gw https://youtu.be/BzxS-3vO6Gw
- Markoff 6y agothat's lot of assumptions why they are taking their lives, but I'm missing comparison with suicide rate in other sports 3 athletes in 7 years in one sport doesn't seem out of ordinary in extremely stressful environment where each millisecond counts
- nickthemagicman 6y agoThank you, the first person who isn't acting emotionally and asking further questions to get to the truth.
- topkai22 6y agoIt's high compared to the general population. https://www.ibsf.org/en/athletes?nationality=CAN&gender=M&last_season=0&sport_bob=1 https://www.ibsf.org/en/athletes?nationality=CAN&gender=M&la... lists all make national team members going back to at least 2010. There are less than 500 national team members listed between the US and Canada. 3 deaths / (500 people *7 years) is 85 deaths per 100000 person years. The normal us rate is closer to 27. That being said, I agree it would be interesting to know if other speed sports have similarly elevated risks or if it is unique to bobsleigh
- Markoff 6y agoI would be curious about explanation for cricket then. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/22/sport.ameliahill https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/22/sport.ameliahill The suicide rate among British men is 1.07 per cent, but according to Frith's research, the rate among cricketers here is 1.77 per cent - making them 75 per cent more likely to take their own life. But the game's toll overseas is even higher. In South Africa 4.12 per cent of players take their own lives. In New Zealand the rate is 3.92 per cent and in Australia 2.75 per cent.
- noisy_boy 6y agoI think the more these things are talked about the better. The research may not be definitive but people should be more aware of the high-g's, impact of brain injuries on their lives based on the experience shared by top-athletes, cases of suicides etc. It may be an individual's personal decision if they want to get involved in this sport but at least they will be relatively more aware of the potential risks with what they are getting into. Also, in this day and age of metrics-madness, it is incredible that important measurements such as g-forces (even if just on the helmet) are not routinely recorded and/or shared as part of scores/stats.
- 082349872349872 6y agoThe Cresta Run has had to find its own underwriter because many refuse to cover sledding. I can't find it now, but at one point I was looking for "extreme sports" cover, and was surprised to see that even in that space, the Cresta was listed as an exception to coverage. https://www.cresta-run.com/ride-the-cresta/insurance/ https://www.cresta-run.com/ride-the-cresta/insurance/
- 205guy 6y agoI hadn't heard of this institution before, so I was checking out their website. This whole brain injury risk must be why they limit access to women: https://www.cresta-run.com/ride-the-cresta/ride-the-cresta/ https://www.cresta-run.com/ride-the-cresta/ride-the-cresta/ "Ladies will be able to use the Run strictly by invitation, at the discretion of the Committee and under the supervision of the Secretary (or his nominee) on the following occasions:" followed by a few days not even each month. What a contrast to that Top Gear video linked by someone else (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzxS-3vO6Gw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzxS-3vO6Gw) where the male driver races the British Olympic skeleton gold medalist (skeleton vs car on nearby roads of same distance). Of course the car wins, but least they let her on the track. /sarcasm
- 082349872349872 6y agoThat the St. Moritz Toboggan Club committee sticks by nineteenth century customs in the twenty-first might be circumstantial evidence for the brain-addling effect of too much high-velocity ice time?
- stareatgoats 6y agoOur culture is rife with such, arenas where (mostly young) people put their life and health at risk for the merriment of the couch potatoes that make up the bulk of the public. We can't outlaw it as long as there are people who rely on it for their livelihood, and large swathes of the populace are insensitive to the sufferings of strangers to the point of enjoying it, immensely.
- UweSchmidt 6y agoI don't think people would willingly sacrifice other people's life and health; it's just generally difficult to - understand long term consequences - understand risk - relate to other people's struggles - work against financial interests (as you mentioned) Given enough information we can outlaw activities, and in the case of sledding, simply taking it out of the Olympic Games would probably put an end to the sport. Not sure what to do about my beloved NFL though.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- toyg 6y agoTo be fair, a sport like sledding does not exist for the audience as much as for participants themselves. I doubt anyone gets into that sport to make a living out of it. I expect that's the case for most olympic disciplines. Your critique is fair for a couple of other sports, particularly boxing/fighting and american football.
- roel_v 6y ago"people put their life and health at risk for the merriment of the couch potatoes" This is not true. People would do it anyway, it's just that the couch potatoes now provide a way for the people doing it to actually get paid. You cannot be an athlete with your only motivation being 'it'll amuse others'. You need some sort of intrinsic motivation to get at least somewhat good at something. People would fight for fun before the UFC, long before they got paid for it. Same with any other 'extreme' sport. One can argue that the couch potatoes now enable these people to do their activities a lot more, or in more intense ways, but that's a different argument all together imo.
- flcl42 6y agoIt'd be cool to limit posting by only public resources.
- DavidVoid 6y agoIf it complains that you've run out of free articles then just clear the site cookies and data and reload the page (click the padlock next to the url if you're using Firefox).
- flcl42 6y agoThanks, it works! The site collects some kind of a fingerprint, looks like. Private mode chrome opened site asks for account, the same site in firefox, indeed, thinks I'm a new user. Smells like some dirty way of data collection.
- nabla9 6y agoTBI seem to have huge consequences that are not connected to the TBI. In the US 2% of the general population is arrested annually. Of those who have had TBI roughly third. A similar one-third rate was found in a community sample of children and adolescents with TBI. In death row inmates it's even more common to have received TBI in childhood. https://www.brainline.org/article/traumatic-brain-injury-prisons-review https://www.brainline.org/article/traumatic-brain-injury-pri... https://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/21/arts/damaged-brains-and-the-death-penalty.html https://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/21/arts/damaged-brains-and-t...
- owenmarshall 6y agoWow. I wonder if we look back at this in 50 years the same way that we look at the impact of leaded gasoline on behavior.
- pavedwalden 6y agoAmong the many other ways our system amplifies recidivism, it's horrifying how common it is for police and prison guards to strike people in the head during confrontations.
- alex_duf 6y agocould that be the other way around? If you're more rowdy, you're more likely to have had a traumatic brain injury?
- DataGata 6y agoThey are almost certainly a vicious cycle of TBI increasing the chance for TBI-related* behaviors in the future. (*either getting or receiving).
- MarxOk 6y agoHow does one possibly elicit causation versus correlation for something like this? There are so many possible variables that could explain the connection (risk-taking behaviour for example).
- doublesCs 6y agoIsn't this a really small problem? If you were to sort by importance all the problems in the world, how close to the bottom would sledding athletes injurying themselves be? I feel sorry for those who already incurred lasting damage, but for the rest... it only depends on them to stop.
- yetihehe 6y agoWe can't have all people working just on most important problems. Many will just waste time doing this (me for example, I don't know how to end poverty), so we have to have people attached to many different problems. Now this problem may not be the most important, but still maybe if someone has time, she should look at it at least briefly?
- imtringued 6y agoWhat authority decides whether a problem is important and how important it is? It probably doesn't or at least shouldn't exist because that power could be equivalent to a dictatorship. Here is a little bit of hyperbole. "Voting for anyone other than Trump for president is not an important problem" The other extreme would be to assign every person on earth to work on fusion power. Even if we are generous and define importance loosely as reward divided by needed investment (aka ROI) we just end up with the current system. It's still not perfect because it doesn't account for time and corruption. People will optimize for the short term and powerful corporations can create feedback loops by lobbying the government to declare their business as "important" which makes the corporation more powerful and that additional power can be used for lobbying again. However, despite all the shortcomings we still have yet to find a better system. I just realized that this comment was mostly aimed at doublesCs. Feel free to ignore it.
- CathedralBorrow 6y agoWhy are you wasting all these words on something that is not at the top of your sorted list? What is the most important problem in the world?
- 6y ago
- tibbydudeza 6y agoSo what about Formula 1 drivers ???. Typically they experience about 5g when braking and 6g whilst cornering on a circuit completing a distance of about 305km.
- nabla9 6y agoSteady acceleration when braking is not significant cause. High g-vibration and concussions from crashes are.
- ajnin 6y agoThat reminds me of a bad headache I got once after riding on a particularly shaky rollercoaster. It lasted the afternoon and made me feel quite sick. I think some of these rides are not safe either.
- S_A_P 6y agoQuestion- if this sport has been going on since 1924 why are the athletes only just now starting to take their lives?
- sosuke 6y agoI wonder if the older courses weren't as extreme? Our sports seem to trend toward breaking limits.
- frank2 6y agoThey probably have been taking their lives all along. The knowledge that repeated head traumas can cause suicidality has only been widespread for 10 to 15 years. Before then for example it was commonly believed even by experts that the only head traumas that can cause permanent problems are those where the victim loses consciousness right after the hit.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]