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Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven b

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They are also generally nice and reasonably centrist-progressive, meaning treating everyone respectfully, nor expecting you to sit through a sermon like the old days. (I heard of one place where this may have been the case, but never saw it myself.) Food Not Bombs might have a weekly freegan cookout, but most of the e.g. feeding people, distributing donated clothes, counseling without having to do paperwork first, food banks, and so on, are done by churches, or church-like organizations, or by people who met at church. There are some exceptions, like in Western Mass and a few places in the Catskills. Source: Traveled around the U.S. with no base income. I don't go out of my way to take advantage of these things, but I'll go if a friend is going.

IshKebab 6y ago
That's presumably because the US is so Christian. In other countries there are plenty of non-Christian charities. In general people aren't good because religion tells them to be.
- Karishma1234 6y ago
  No one has made a claim that religion is the only motivation for good. In USA not just churches but also hindu temples and buddhist temples get tax exemptions (like any other non profits). As a Hindu and as a victim of Church sanctioned violence in Portuguese colonies I am no fan of Church, and yet I do not think it makes any sense to tax a charitable organization just because it is religious in nature.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ggggtez 6y ago
> where people connect with the spiritual world In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup. People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to provide tax exemptions to organizations that more and more people are fleeing.
- saltyfever 6y ago
  Are people fleeing churches or have they never been?
  - lazyasciiart 6y ago
    Do you mean in generational terms, or individual life experiences?
  - ggggtez 6y ago
    People are fleeing, in fact. An important thing to remember is that in these polls, when they say things like "No religion in particular" they don't actually mean that these people are Atheists. They mean they don't ascribe to a specific dogma, like Catholic, or Baptist. These people often may still think of themselves as "christian" but, for one reason or another, have rejected organized religion. From 70% to 50% is such a large change in 20 years. For this to be caused by a change in _parenting only_ would mean that probably every child born 38 years ago until today never attended a church. (this data counts adults, so they would only start counting when they turned 18). That seems very unlikely. https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-s...
- juskrey 6y ago
  You should see some Soviet community centers before thinking they can replace anything. USA is highly uneven. In some states like Florida you can see churches on every other corner, and they are very active and developing, serving not only as community centers, but also as halls, child day care, hospitals, schools, galleries etc. No freaking "community center" can replace that.
earthscienceman 6y ago
This is such an important point. It's going to go against the grain at hackernews, but taxing churches in the US is a terrible idea. If you wanted to further the divide between the "liberal city"/"conservative rural" American cultures, this would be a great way to do it. If you grew up in a rural area of the flyover states you would know that churches form the backbone of these rural communities. For example, the church in my hometown organizes youth gaming nights (yes, D&D style), widow support groups, and hosts food drives along with so many more things. They're so poor that every year they have a board meeting and the board divides up the operating expenses that are unpaid and they pay them out of pocket. The board members are 'well-to-do' community members with job titles like firemen and teacher. If they were not tax-exempt, they would have to shutter. This is not to condone or justify the negative impacts that some churches have on this country, and religion often serves as a cloak for a lot of bad cultural habits like racism. I understand why people want to combat abuses of the non-profit status of the church, but taxing them is not the way to accomplish this.
- jsmeaton 6y ago
  Don't you only tax profits? If a church isn't making any, then there'd be nothing to tax?
  - ajdlinux 6y ago
    I don't know about the US tax system, but at least in my experience here in Australia, not every expense incurred by a business or partially-taxed non-profit is necessarily deductible. For example, I formed a company with some friends for the purpose of work on a single contract, and the expenses we incurred in incorporating the company were only deductible at a rate of 20% per year over 5 years, so we ended up having to pay tax without being able to deduct most of that particular set of expenses during the 1 year we were in operation.
    - MaximumYComb 6y ago
      Thats for items which depreciate in value over a multi year period right? I know that you were only in business one year but the tax system isn't really designed around 1 job incorporated companies.
wrnr 6y ago
Sounds fair but why can't these things just be a not for profit? Don't know about the US law, but often in my country there are for-profit non-profit.
- ars 6y ago
  > Sounds fair but why can't these things just be a not for profit? They are. There is no difference tax-wise for a non-profit and church.
  - Galaxeblaffer 6y ago
    Afaik churches in the US doesn't even have to report anything, so there's no way to know where the money is from and what they are being used for. That's a pretty big difference
    - londons_explore 6y ago
      Even a church ought to be accounting where is moneys are going from and to... I have no qualms with the government being able to inspect those records too. To me, reporting makes sense. For an organisation as big as a church, employing a few accountants seems like value for money simply because then fraud will be deterred.
    - nulbyte 6y ago
      While they aren't required to report, many register voluntarily for fundraising and discounts. AmazonSmile, Kroger Community Rewards, and similar programs often outsource basic eligibility to GuideStar. GuideStar will not add you without proof of exempt determination by the IRS.
  - KVFinn 6y ago
    >They are. There is no difference tax-wise for a non-profit and church. While both churches and non-profits don't pay tax, they are treated differently. Secular non-profits have to account for the money coming in and out of the organization, while churches don't have to account for the donations or expenses.
kome 6y ago
Perhaps then the US needs more welfare and more social right, but all that they got is churches and "people of good will".
MaximumYComb 6y ago
They also spend a lot of money and effort on promoting their own religion and interests. They could easily create subcharities that are seperate entities designed to do the charitable work while being taxed on their non charitable areas.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Church charities are often marketing in disguise.
mattmanser 6y ago
When it comes to religion, America is the (massive) exception. My local church, that drives 10,000s of nearby resident crazy by ringing it's bells, had 3 people attending last time I stuck my head in. 3. People only use it for weddings, christenings and Christmas. They're not been a part of the community for decades.
- keiferski 6y ago
  Well, actually, Europe is the main exception to the rest of the world. America is in-line with most of Africa, the Middle East, Asia, India, and South America in that religion still plays a major role in everyday life. In fact, religions are growing, not shrinking, worldwide.
  - mattmanser 6y ago
    Perhaps I should have been more clear, America is the exception of the wealthy countries that can afford extensive education. What might have previously been commonly called first-world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion#/media/File:Religion_economy.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion#/media/Fil... See how the US is an outlier?
    - keiferski 6y ago
      The thing is, the concept of religion as a distinct, separate part of culture is basically a Western concept itself - and one that many scholars don't find to be very solid. Take Japan for example: Shintoism and Buddhism are very woven into the culture of modern Japan. Rituals, shrines, and other associated practices are quite prevalent and most of the population interacts with them on a regular basis. Yet your link lists Japan as being the second-least religious country, after China, which also has a number of beliefs that essentially qualify as 'religious' in nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan In the Western world, the concept of humanist, egalitarian democracy is more-or-less an extension of certain Christian ethical beliefs that preceded it, so again, this definition of 'not-religious' is itself pretty problematic.
threatofrain 6y ago
One problem I see is that church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people from society by force of government. There's a reason why during the Bush presidential candidacy a big news item was the push for a Constitutional amendment to exclude gay marriage. The Mormon church spent a great amount of money advertising in California with regards to how dangerous gay people are to kids. People talk about "intolerance" of "cancelling", but cancelling is about the exercise of free relations by withdrawing. And then there's the force of law.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  > church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people This might be the case of some church organizations (specifically those that make it a point to be politically active), but claiming that all churches do this, or even a majority of them, is just not accurate - guilt by association. I grew up in Catholic schools, and almost every priest that taught us was incredibly kind and open to gays. These priests are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet.
  - paulryanrogers 6y ago
    Yet their foundational texts at minimum call homosexuality unclean. Then the are the laws prescribing murder for homosexuals. This is just one problematic topic among many. Church culture evolves but not always in the progressive direction. Propping up these ancient institutions just because they are old--and sometimes do good--comes at a high cost to marginalized groups.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  But this is not a valid argument for removing their tax exempt status since their tax exempt status is not based on agreeing or aligning with the government's views on homosexuality.
hrktb 6y ago
This article in particular seems to be about better use of church space to not let empty rooms stays unused, albeit in a somewhat aggressive way. But more generally, I think an angle to the whole question would be to apply either or both: - treat religious organizations as any other non-profit, with no specific religious exemption. If they can’t continue doing the same in that legal framing they need to adapt. - give all non-profit orgs a path to have the same advantages as religious organizations, so they can help the community in the same ways.
AsyncAwait 6y ago
> U.S. churches are still where communities meet So is conference halls. So is Zoom for that matter. Churches are also places where parents force their children to go against their wishes, where creepy priests make unwanted advances etc. > also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity Any kind? Really? What about NGOs? Volunteering nurses? FLOSS communities? People 3D printing masks in maker spaces? Here in the U.K., the National Health Service put out a call for volunteers to help and tens of thousands of people signed up, regardless of any church. You don't need these for significant charitable activity to occur. I am not saying that churches don't do good, just that they're not needed for charitable activity to occur and we need to determine whether the good that occurs because of churches outweighs the bad, (which btw often doesn't even come to light due to victims fearing retaliation).
- dingoegret 6y ago
  It's evident by your opening that you have a bone to pick with religion, so I'll keep this short. 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    > 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques. The problem is that in the U.S., the state has given up on helping the poor, especially when compared to EU countries, and it is then up to private institutions to fill in some semblance of what should have already been there as nonnegotiable basis of a developed society. I am not from the U.S., (but with a lot of fiends from there), and I can tell you that a lot of what churches do in the U.S. is so basic that it should not be their role to provide. It is often used as a metric of "success" for churches and private charity in general, but in reality all it shows is a failure of the wider society where things like medicare for all are still not a thing, even during a pandemic. When there's a possibility of thousands of dollars that need to be paid for an ambulance ride, that is a systemic failure of the system no church can fix. I am not religious myself, but I want to make it clear that I am not arguing churches do no good. They absolutely do. I just feel that the awful shit they do is often overlooked as soon as something positive can be said about them. There are multiple sides to every story, even characters you wouldn't think much about based on the overall picture did good, (one particularly repulsive character of history did a lot for animal rights for example). I also feel like other forms of charity are often diminished in their impact because they're less visible than church charity. Let's take FLOSS for example; I come from a relatively poor upbringing, without access to good education or the internet for the longest time. I have cerebral palsy and that means any kind of physical work is pretty much a no go for me. What I did have was a couple of friends who gave me Mandrake Linux on 3 CDs back in the day with GCC preinstalled and a book on C. Now I am able to support myself as a programmer and donate to FLOSS on a regular basis. Because FLOSS gave me hope, I also found the motivation to exercise really hard and to preserve some amount of mobility for myself, even into adulthood. Without it, I'd most likely end up dependent on people I wanted nothing to do with and without any kind of dignity, demotivated and miserable. I cannot overstate the impact the free software community has on me and I feel like it did more for me than any church ever could.
dungdongdang 6y ago
communities? no. churches are where a group of people from the community meet, that exclude others on the basis of religion. if a bagel shop did that, people would be up in arms. if they want to give away free food, why would getting taxed on profits stop that? i'm also not sure what this has to do with taxes.
Normal_gaussian 6y ago
damn right they get a bad rap. With no to little reporting requirements American churches are the ultimate fraud machine for the use of an exclusive and nepotistic section of society. Spin it out as a series of regular companies/charities, both for and non profit. For any church worth keeping the only difference it will make is the paperwork the accountant does, for the vast majority it will shut down piles of legal loopholes and expose corruption. Wonder why european churches are a dying breed? There isn't any personal profit to be made there, and the good people saw fit to have their governments establish semi-functional systems of care based around moral ideals.
john4534243 6y ago
Every major religious book preaches against women rights and other bad stuff. The churches(or any other religious organization's) goal is to make the society conform to the religion as much is permitted at that point in time. > nor expecting you to sit through a sermon like the old days Its because America has come a long way to instill the freedom in the minds of people and the church knows if they force too much people will not turn up. So they relax it for now but once people become enough religious, they will move the needle a little further until there are no independence left. Don't fall for the charity stuff.
scarface74 6y ago
Only a small percentage of church’s budget goes to charity. https://galileounchained.com/2012/05/14/are-churches-more-like-charities-or-country-clubs/ https://galileounchained.com/2012/05/14/are-churches-more-li... The church is in only interested in keeping its own institution alive. If you ask the majority of Christians - who overwhelmingly went for a candidate who does not display Christian values - it’s because he furthered their agenda. The church has hidden and continues to hide child molestation by their leaders. They are pushing to reopen during Covid putting their congregations in danger - who are statistically older. Churches are also one of the most segregated parts of society. They consistently oppose universal healthcare. One survey showed that 22% of Christians still believe that interracial marriage is a sin.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I understand they are meeting places for the community but the fact they they worship imaginary beings and that makes them special is what gets people riled up. I understand worshiping and not worshiping is a critical element in tolerant human society, even in the 21st century that is supposedly made of science and enlightenment. What people really get angry with is when they get mixed up in politics and monetary activities promoting political agendas and want to maintain their tax exempt status even though they claim to be nonpartisan groups.
churchgoer 6y ago
I would say many churches in the US have now become glorified concerts [1]. Great production, acoustics, cameramen, and often to peddle and push the organizers products [2] (books, DVD's, etc) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjpWTsh07k0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjpWTsh07k0 [2] https://store.harvest.org/ https://store.harvest.org/

IshKebab 6y ago

That's presumably because the US is so Christian. In other countries there are plenty of non-Christian charities. In general people aren't good because religion tells them to be.

Karishma1234 6y ago
No one has made a claim that religion is the only motivation for good. In USA not just churches but also hindu temples and buddhist temples get tax exemptions (like any other non profits). As a Hindu and as a victim of Church sanctioned violence in Portuguese colonies I am no fan of Church, and yet I do not think it makes any sense to tax a charitable organization just because it is religious in nature.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ggggtez 6y ago

> where people connect with the spiritual world In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup. People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to provide tax exemptions to organizations that more and more people are fleeing.

saltyfever 6y ago
Are people fleeing churches or have they never been?
- lazyasciiart 6y ago
  Do you mean in generational terms, or individual life experiences?
- ggggtez 6y ago
  People are fleeing, in fact. An important thing to remember is that in these polls, when they say things like "No religion in particular" they don't actually mean that these people are Atheists. They mean they don't ascribe to a specific dogma, like Catholic, or Baptist. These people often may still think of themselves as "christian" but, for one reason or another, have rejected organized religion. From 70% to 50% is such a large change in 20 years. For this to be caused by a change in _parenting only_ would mean that probably every child born 38 years ago until today never attended a church. (this data counts adults, so they would only start counting when they turned 18). That seems very unlikely. https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-s...
juskrey 6y ago
You should see some Soviet community centers before thinking they can replace anything. USA is highly uneven. In some states like Florida you can see churches on every other corner, and they are very active and developing, serving not only as community centers, but also as halls, child day care, hospitals, schools, galleries etc. No freaking "community center" can replace that.

earthscienceman 6y ago

This is such an important point. It's going to go against the grain at hackernews, but taxing churches in the US is a terrible idea. If you wanted to further the divide between the "liberal city"/"conservative rural" American cultures, this would be a great way to do it. If you grew up in a rural area of the flyover states you would know that churches form the backbone of these rural communities. For example, the church in my hometown organizes youth gaming nights (yes, D&D style), widow support groups, and hosts food drives along with so many more things. They're so poor that every year they have a board meeting and the board divides up the operating expenses that are unpaid and they pay them out of pocket. The board members are 'well-to-do' community members with job titles like firemen and teacher. If they were not tax-exempt, they would have to shutter. This is not to condone or justify the negative impacts that some churches have on this country, and religion often serves as a cloak for a lot of bad cultural habits like racism. I understand why people want to combat abuses of the non-profit status of the church, but taxing them is not the way to accomplish this.

jsmeaton 6y ago
Don't you only tax profits? If a church isn't making any, then there'd be nothing to tax?
- ajdlinux 6y ago
  I don't know about the US tax system, but at least in my experience here in Australia, not every expense incurred by a business or partially-taxed non-profit is necessarily deductible. For example, I formed a company with some friends for the purpose of work on a single contract, and the expenses we incurred in incorporating the company were only deductible at a rate of 20% per year over 5 years, so we ended up having to pay tax without being able to deduct most of that particular set of expenses during the 1 year we were in operation.
  - MaximumYComb 6y ago
    Thats for items which depreciate in value over a multi year period right? I know that you were only in business one year but the tax system isn't really designed around 1 job incorporated companies.

wrnr 6y ago

Sounds fair but why can't these things just be a not for profit? Don't know about the US law, but often in my country there are for-profit non-profit.

ars 6y ago
> Sounds fair but why can't these things just be a not for profit? They are. There is no difference tax-wise for a non-profit and church.
- Galaxeblaffer 6y ago
  Afaik churches in the US doesn't even have to report anything, so there's no way to know where the money is from and what they are being used for. That's a pretty big difference
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    Even a church ought to be accounting where is moneys are going from and to... I have no qualms with the government being able to inspect those records too. To me, reporting makes sense. For an organisation as big as a church, employing a few accountants seems like value for money simply because then fraud will be deterred.
  - nulbyte 6y ago
    While they aren't required to report, many register voluntarily for fundraising and discounts. AmazonSmile, Kroger Community Rewards, and similar programs often outsource basic eligibility to GuideStar. GuideStar will not add you without proof of exempt determination by the IRS.
- KVFinn 6y ago
  >They are. There is no difference tax-wise for a non-profit and church. While both churches and non-profits don't pay tax, they are treated differently. Secular non-profits have to account for the money coming in and out of the organization, while churches don't have to account for the donations or expenses.

kome 6y ago

Perhaps then the US needs more welfare and more social right, but all that they got is churches and "people of good will".

MaximumYComb 6y ago

They also spend a lot of money and effort on promoting their own religion and interests. They could easily create subcharities that are seperate entities designed to do the charitable work while being taxed on their non charitable areas.

jacquesm 6y ago
Church charities are often marketing in disguise.

mattmanser 6y ago

When it comes to religion, America is the (massive) exception. My local church, that drives 10,000s of nearby resident crazy by ringing it's bells, had 3 people attending last time I stuck my head in. 3. People only use it for weddings, christenings and Christmas. They're not been a part of the community for decades.

keiferski 6y ago
Well, actually, Europe is the main exception to the rest of the world. America is in-line with most of Africa, the Middle East, Asia, India, and South America in that religion still plays a major role in everyday life. In fact, religions are growing, not shrinking, worldwide.
- mattmanser 6y ago
  Perhaps I should have been more clear, America is the exception of the wealthy countries that can afford extensive education. What might have previously been commonly called first-world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion#/media/File:Religion_economy.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion#/media/Fil... See how the US is an outlier?
  - keiferski 6y ago
    The thing is, the concept of religion as a distinct, separate part of culture is basically a Western concept itself - and one that many scholars don't find to be very solid. Take Japan for example: Shintoism and Buddhism are very woven into the culture of modern Japan. Rituals, shrines, and other associated practices are quite prevalent and most of the population interacts with them on a regular basis. Yet your link lists Japan as being the second-least religious country, after China, which also has a number of beliefs that essentially qualify as 'religious' in nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan In the Western world, the concept of humanist, egalitarian democracy is more-or-less an extension of certain Christian ethical beliefs that preceded it, so again, this definition of 'not-religious' is itself pretty problematic.

threatofrain 6y ago

One problem I see is that church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people from society by force of government. There's a reason why during the Bush presidential candidacy a big news item was the push for a Constitutional amendment to exclude gay marriage. The Mormon church spent a great amount of money advertising in California with regards to how dangerous gay people are to kids. People talk about "intolerance" of "cancelling", but cancelling is about the exercise of free relations by withdrawing. And then there's the force of law.

koheripbal 6y ago
> church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people This might be the case of some church organizations (specifically those that make it a point to be politically active), but claiming that all churches do this, or even a majority of them, is just not accurate - guilt by association. I grew up in Catholic schools, and almost every priest that taught us was incredibly kind and open to gays. These priests are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet.
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  Yet their foundational texts at minimum call homosexuality unclean. Then the are the laws prescribing murder for homosexuals. This is just one problematic topic among many. Church culture evolves but not always in the progressive direction. Propping up these ancient institutions just because they are old--and sometimes do good--comes at a high cost to marginalized groups.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
But this is not a valid argument for removing their tax exempt status since their tax exempt status is not based on agreeing or aligning with the government's views on homosexuality.

hrktb 6y ago

This article in particular seems to be about better use of church space to not let empty rooms stays unused, albeit in a somewhat aggressive way. But more generally, I think an angle to the whole question would be to apply either or both: - treat religious organizations as any other non-profit, with no specific religious exemption. If they can’t continue doing the same in that legal framing they need to adapt. - give all non-profit orgs a path to have the same advantages as religious organizations, so they can help the community in the same ways.

AsyncAwait 6y ago

> U.S. churches are still where communities meet So is conference halls. So is Zoom for that matter. Churches are also places where parents force their children to go against their wishes, where creepy priests make unwanted advances etc. > also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity Any kind? Really? What about NGOs? Volunteering nurses? FLOSS communities? People 3D printing masks in maker spaces? Here in the U.K., the National Health Service put out a call for volunteers to help and tens of thousands of people signed up, regardless of any church. You don't need these for significant charitable activity to occur. I am not saying that churches don't do good, just that they're not needed for charitable activity to occur and we need to determine whether the good that occurs because of churches outweighs the bad, (which btw often doesn't even come to light due to victims fearing retaliation).

dingoegret 6y ago
It's evident by your opening that you have a bone to pick with religion, so I'll keep this short. 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  > 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques. The problem is that in the U.S., the state has given up on helping the poor, especially when compared to EU countries, and it is then up to private institutions to fill in some semblance of what should have already been there as nonnegotiable basis of a developed society. I am not from the U.S., (but with a lot of fiends from there), and I can tell you that a lot of what churches do in the U.S. is so basic that it should not be their role to provide. It is often used as a metric of "success" for churches and private charity in general, but in reality all it shows is a failure of the wider society where things like medicare for all are still not a thing, even during a pandemic. When there's a possibility of thousands of dollars that need to be paid for an ambulance ride, that is a systemic failure of the system no church can fix. I am not religious myself, but I want to make it clear that I am not arguing churches do no good. They absolutely do. I just feel that the awful shit they do is often overlooked as soon as something positive can be said about them. There are multiple sides to every story, even characters you wouldn't think much about based on the overall picture did good, (one particularly repulsive character of history did a lot for animal rights for example). I also feel like other forms of charity are often diminished in their impact because they're less visible than church charity. Let's take FLOSS for example; I come from a relatively poor upbringing, without access to good education or the internet for the longest time. I have cerebral palsy and that means any kind of physical work is pretty much a no go for me. What I did have was a couple of friends who gave me Mandrake Linux on 3 CDs back in the day with GCC preinstalled and a book on C. Now I am able to support myself as a programmer and donate to FLOSS on a regular basis. Because FLOSS gave me hope, I also found the motivation to exercise really hard and to preserve some amount of mobility for myself, even into adulthood. Without it, I'd most likely end up dependent on people I wanted nothing to do with and without any kind of dignity, demotivated and miserable. I cannot overstate the impact the free software community has on me and I feel like it did more for me than any church ever could.

dungdongdang 6y ago

communities? no. churches are where a group of people from the community meet, that exclude others on the basis of religion. if a bagel shop did that, people would be up in arms. if they want to give away free food, why would getting taxed on profits stop that? i'm also not sure what this has to do with taxes.

Normal_gaussian 6y ago

damn right they get a bad rap. With no to little reporting requirements American churches are the ultimate fraud machine for the use of an exclusive and nepotistic section of society. Spin it out as a series of regular companies/charities, both for and non profit. For any church worth keeping the only difference it will make is the paperwork the accountant does, for the vast majority it will shut down piles of legal loopholes and expose corruption. Wonder why european churches are a dying breed? There isn't any personal profit to be made there, and the good people saw fit to have their governments establish semi-functional systems of care based around moral ideals.

john4534243 6y ago

Every major religious book preaches against women rights and other bad stuff. The churches(or any other religious organization's) goal is to make the society conform to the religion as much is permitted at that point in time. > nor expecting you to sit through a sermon like the old days Its because America has come a long way to instill the freedom in the minds of people and the church knows if they force too much people will not turn up. So they relax it for now but once people become enough religious, they will move the needle a little further until there are no independence left. Don't fall for the charity stuff.

scarface74 6y ago

Only a small percentage of church’s budget goes to charity. https://galileounchained.com/2012/05/14/are-churches-more-like-charities-or-country-clubs/ https://galileounchained.com/2012/05/14/are-churches-more-li... The church is in only interested in keeping its own institution alive. If you ask the majority of Christians - who overwhelmingly went for a candidate who does not display Christian values - it’s because he furthered their agenda. The church has hidden and continues to hide child molestation by their leaders. They are pushing to reopen during Covid putting their congregations in danger - who are statistically older. Churches are also one of the most segregated parts of society. They consistently oppose universal healthcare. One survey showed that 22% of Christians still believe that interracial marriage is a sin.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

I understand they are meeting places for the community but the fact they they worship imaginary beings and that makes them special is what gets people riled up. I understand worshiping and not worshiping is a critical element in tolerant human society, even in the 21st century that is supposedly made of science and enlightenment. What people really get angry with is when they get mixed up in politics and monetary activities promoting political agendas and want to maintain their tax exempt status even though they claim to be nonpartisan groups.

churchgoer 6y ago

I would say many churches in the US have now become glorified concerts [1]. Great production, acoustics, cameramen, and often to peddle and push the organizers products [2] (books, DVD's, etc) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjpWTsh07k0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjpWTsh07k0 [2] https://store.harvest.org/ https://store.harvest.org/