46 ms·

Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

474 points by pmoriarty 6y ago

mysore 6y ago
Thanks I needed this
- dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
  Yes great post thank you.
GaylordTuring 6y ago
Or the act of fending off depression, anxiety, and panic disorders can positively influence perseverance toward life goals. That’s a just as valid conclusion from the data.
- johnfn 6y ago
  Yeah, absolutely. > participants were asked to rate their goal persistence (e.g., “When I encounter problems, I don’t give up until I solve them”), self-mastery (e.g., “I can do just anything I really set my mind to”) and positive reappraisal (e.g., “I can find something positive, even in the worst situations”). Diagnoses for major depressive, anxiety and panic disorders were also collected at each interval. > People who showed more goal persistence and optimism during the first assessment in the mid-1990s had greater reductions in depression, anxiety and panic disorders across the 18 years, according to the authors. Not only is your conclusion a valid one from the data, I'd say that it should very well by the default conclusion. Answering low on their goal-persistence questions would be obvious flags for being depressed. Especially because there's no casual link that can be established, the most I could say from reading this article is that if you aren't interested in pursuing goals, you may be depressed.
  - qppo 6y ago
    I think causal links are hard to come by in any science, but here the important tidbit is that particular emotions (perseverance towards ones goals) were correlated with less incidence or severity of disorders, compared to others (a feeling of control of ones environment/future). The value here is that showing the existence of an emotion earlier in ones life is correlated to lessening of symptoms later is that it helps therapists know which emotions and behaviors to target during long term treatment like cognitive/behavioral therapy. At least that's how I read it, I'm not a professional
    - kayodelycaon 6y ago
      Or it could be that mental disorders compromise the ability to have perseverance. Given what we know about mental illness, this is the more likely.
  - xvilka 6y ago
    It could be just both correlate independently with a third, unknown variable that represents some unknown or unaccounted psychological property of mind.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- danhak 6y ago
  Or it's not "or" but "and," with the the two feeding each other in a positive feedback loop.
avindroth 6y ago
But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”? Very few people tend to look at the mind as a system, and also seem to ignore that depression, anxiety, panic disorders, etc. happen for a reason. The reason why modern humanity have increased risk of these symptoms is because they know, given their perhaps wrongly learned models of the world or otherwise, that even when they achieve their so-called life goals, that they wouldn’t achieve philosophical nor psychological satisfaction that they seek. Their mind has predicted the conclusion of their efforts, and the conclusion lies far below what they seek. Thus the mind desperately attempts to re-understand, re-configure, and re-model the world to achieve its goals. But instead what is espoused by modern psychology and self-help is a kind of blind optimism or a horse blinders kind of approach to tending one’s mind. Most types of meditative studies also force this notion of blindness. Depression and anxiety and other “disorders” (whose classification from its onset is very unhelpful for its ideological integration into society as a valid problem to work through) most often happen to those who are sensitive, those who have surprisingly extensive models of the world, etc. But it has become very fashionable in SV intelligentsia and the communities that drink the intelligence soup that trickles down from the SV community (like other cities of America or other America-directed tech communities) to treat the mind as a dumb system that did a poor job evolving to a modern environment (e.g. rationality movement). Instead of understanding the mind (and consequently the body) as a system and listening to whatever small traces your mind has left in its great attempt to solve really important problems for you, we just blind ourselves to faux goals that we may not even actually want. Optimization for optimization’s sake is bad, but goal-seeking for goal-seeking’s sake may be a significantly worse and dangerous meme.
- Swizec 6y ago
  Reading Viktor Frankl’s book Man’s Search for Meaning has been the best thing I ever read on this topic. Changed my whole perspective. The tldr version goes something like: “Meaning is irrelevant, but humans need meaning to live. Pick any meaning you want. Doesn’t matter what, just choose something. Then go for it with all your might. If you ever find it wasn’t a good meaning, pick a new one. You’re a different person now anyway”
  - 6y ago
insickness 6y ago
This is the point of Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. If you try to be happy, you will likely fail. But if instead, you try to give your life meaning and purpose, you will more likely find happiness orthogonally.
Zelphyr 6y ago
While I'm not a psychologist my reading of that seems to confirm one of the aspects of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) which is to clarify ones values and work towards them. For example; it might be one's goal to travel to another country but they are afraid of flying. Traveling is a goal/value thus they would work towards accepting the presence and sensations of the fear of flying in order to achieve that goal. That's a greatly simplified description of ACT but you get the gist.
- maybelsyrup 6y ago
  I'm a therapist, and I'm also an ACT practitioner. You're on the money here, though I'd encourage you to think even bigger. To use your example about travel: extend it further. In ACT, goals and values couldn't be more different, and we spend a lot of time helping patients distinguish between the two. "Traveling" is a goal - the value would be found in "why travel?", what does it get you? If the answer to that is then something like "it gets me a sense of adventure", then the "value" (as defined in ACT, anyway) might be just that: you want to live adventurously, and traveling is a "goal" that you believe, at least for now, can bring you a little bit of that. In fact, one of my favorite ACT exercises is finding adverbs that fit these ideas, because adverbs cannot be "attained" like goals can. That's the whole problem with goals, in fact, that leads indirectly to a lot of pain: goals can be attained. ACT is lovely, but I'm biased. If you have any questions please ask!
  - aurbano 6y ago
    That sounds really fascinating! Could you give more examples of those adverbs, or ACT in general? Do you apply it in your own life, and if so, how? (If you don’t mind sharing!)
  - dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
    Can you give an example of the adverb thing?
    - aspenmayer 6y ago
      Not OP. One may may have the desire to think of oneself as one who lives adventurously [adverb modifying the verb lives]. Yet this same person may find some of the roles, activities, or trappings of actual adventuring; that is, the things one does to be considered adventurous by oneself and/or by others; to be not actually be enjoyable or tolerable to themselves, which creates tension within an individual, which could easily lead to self-blame. This is my interpretation of why this concept may be a useful aid to help one step outside their own perspective, and possibly help reveal unconscious desires, motivations, fears, and more.
viburnum 6y ago
This is like the grit discourse, just blaming people for not trying hard enough.
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  People that have overcome difficulty can end up lacking empathy for those who haven’t. “I got here, you didn’t. Therefore, you must not have tried hard enough.” Hear it every day.
softwaredoug 6y ago
The problem seems to be finding worthwhile and realistic goals that are worth persevering for. And frankly I get depressed and anxious just thinking about that. (Edit not at all being flip, How to spend my limited time creates a lot of anxiety and depression. I doubt I’m alone)
m3kw9 6y ago
Boredom is a heck of a depressor.
kissgyorgy 6y ago
> People who showed more goal persistence and optimism... had greater reductions in depression ... Isn't a big part of depression is pessimism? I feel like this sentence is the same as saying "People who showed no signs of depression ... had greater reductions in depression"
- NeutronStar 6y ago
  I read it as people who are less depressed have it easier to become non depressed. which isn't saying much.
- vmchale 6y ago
  The paper says its a bidirectional association.
eric4smith 6y ago
Yes to this. I often counsel my younger friends to have a "mission". Then once that is completed, to find another one. In fact, one can have multiple missions running at the same time. It's rarely said that marriage, kids, job, degree, a house, car, and most physical things are not missions. And in fact, most of these things -- unless accompanied by a "why am i doing this" and attendant missions/goals do not lead to happiness. Marriage without goals = divorce. Kids without mission = abandonment. Money without a plan = poverty. Degree without a plan = debt/sadness. Relationship without a mission = break up. Programming without a mission = abandoned code.
- andi999 6y ago
  Since you explained what are not missions, can you give examples for missions?
  - eric4smith 6y ago
    Sure, here are just a few. 1. Rearing children with the goal of making them read at 2 years old. Then with the goal of learning calculus at 10. Then others as they grow older. 2. Learning programming by writing a real system that actual people will use -- instead of code katas or reading programming books or attending a boot camp. 3. Marrying not only for love, but with the intention of building a business or farm together. 4. Buying a house, with the knowledge you will sell it or convert it into a rental in a certain number of years. Then repeat with another house. 5. Starting a social media account to cover a specific topic, instead of making random posts about anything (have you noticed the most successful accounts are about one topic??). 6. Taking a degree with the intention of using it in a specific way and knowing how much money you will make to pay off the loan and live a comfortable life. 7. Buying a "beater" car, because you want to hire a new offshore employee for a side project instead of making a high lease payment to the bank. The world is filled with the stories of people who do things purely on emotion and never had "missions" or a "why" they did the thing.
    - ooobit2 6y ago
      Alright. Because this personally applies for me, what about creating missions of past decisions made without missions? (This sounds naive, but I could use some insight.) For ex. I did my undergrad in IT Security. I did an MSDA. I ended up in professional sales. I don't know what to do with all this. I've been good at tackling hard subjects my entire life, but how do you craft a mission from a hodgepodge of difficult and unrelated skillsets?
sizzle 6y ago
The downside to this is forming an addiction e.g. get in shape and look good --> eating disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, etc. It's so easy to fall into this trap of obsessing over achieving your one goal to the detriment of your health and sanity (developing OCD, etc.) Can anyone relate? for me it was the gym which spilled over into unhealthy diets and unhealthy relationship to eating normal food that had carbs like it was going to kill me until I realized how obsessed I was becoming and quit the gym for outdoor activities.
- x86ARMsRace 6y ago
  I can definitely relate, except not for the gym type of goals, rather academic goals. I was studying STEM to be a researcher initially. I sunk pretty much every minute of my time into trying to achieve that. Despite this, I just could not get the marks needed to get where I wanted. That destroyed my mental health for a long time. I tied my self-worth into my education, and that only. I ended up developing something very similar to OCD that I still struggle with today. Ended up giving up on that pursuit, and went into the software world and became a developer. It was really hard throwing that previous dream out, sunk cost and all, but I have never been happier than I am now. I realized that my single focus and obsession about achieving that specific goal meant that the rest of my life had been essentially halted. That's not the case anymore. I think sometimes, at least for myself, we can get so caught up in the idealized end goal, that we forget that life happens between now and the end goal. If we don't take care of ourselves between those two end-points, we will either never reach that goal, or when we do, be unable to appreciate it.
cmehdy 6y ago
I couldn't find the actual paper with this press release, even when searching on the website itself (which ended up just returning blank pages to me for some reason). I found more info through another website[0]. At least this helps me, in principle, rule out the idea that they could have been mixing correlation and causation. The one thing that surprises me is that they quickly go on to conclude that therapies should focus on what they studied. Quote: "Treatments for MDD, GAD, and PD should attempt to enhance perseverance and optimism." A predictor isn't necessarily an actuator. I think that a few steps are skipped if a predictor is immediately used as a tool to correct an issue rather than to primarily track it. They would need to do a separate study to know IF one possible new treatment can come out of training in "goal persistence". There are other ways to think about the results. For example, some of the criteria to diagnose a Major Depressive Disorder could be refined thanks to this kind of research. If a sort of "goal" or "persistence" assessment is tracked, the intensity of the disorder might be better perceived, which in turn could mean that therapists and psychiatrists could work towards more fitting treatment amongst what is already researched and known. In any case, as someone with a fairly intense mix of two of the disorders in this study, I am always happy to see some research come out (especially when n >> 3 undergrads who were passing by). [0] https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fabn0000428 https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fabn0000428
- aspenmayer 6y ago
  I missed it on the first read too: it’s at the very top where it says Read the journal article Something about the format or style of that part of the page made my mind assume it was a link to a related page and my eyes just skipped right over it. I have included the link for you below. https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/abn-abn0000428.pdf https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/abn-abn0000428.pd...
  - cmehdy 6y ago
    Thank you! I'll take a better look at the whole thing now. It seems like that journal works with a focus on empirical data but empirical doesn't necessarily mean robust statistical methods, however the paper seems to be actually serious about this.
todaysAI 6y ago
I developed https://www.activegoals.net https://www.activegoals.net with mental health in mind especially since I deal a lot with the autism community who usually have poor executive functioning.
- totetsu 6y ago
  I couldn't play the video on your site in chrome on android even after downloading it. It played in vlc. Maybe check your codec
jcun4128 6y ago
I'll build something and then after it's done think "why did I do that?" But I guess it was fun during the process/before it existed. Lately though I've been thinking something isn't a waste of time if it makes money.
non-entity 6y ago
I used to keep together at some of worse times of my life by persevering towards goals, but nowadays everything just feels intangible or unrealistic. Not sure why, maybe because I realize I have less and less control over things. I guess right now things ar worse by the coronavirus and the fact that theres little I can do now. These past few months have been incredibly similar to past instances of self-imposed isolation.
sfgweilr4f 6y ago
There's a ship. It has no captain, no crew. Where is it going? There's another ship. It has a captain and crew but no destination is set. Where is it going? There's another ship. It has captain, crew, destination but no course is set. Where is it going? There's another ship. It has captain, crew, destination and a course set. Everyone is ready to go and intends to go. Where is it going? Only one of these ships will set sail, leave the harbor, reach a set of map points, follow that course and arrive at its destination. Regardless of being driven off course due to bad weather or other circumstance, only one has a real chance. "Perseverance cultivates a sense of purposefulness that can create resilience against or decrease current levels of major depressive disorders..." Sort of. Purpose means perseverance is useful. Lack of purpose means perseverance, resilience or even the least effort can be wasted.
- adventured 6y ago
  > Sort of. Purpose means perseverance is useful. Lack of purpose means perseverance, resilience or even the least effort can be wasted. That's taken care of right in the title: "perseverance toward life goals"
- acituan 6y ago
  There's another ship. It has captain, crew, destination and a course set. Turns out the destination sucks, but it is too late once they arrive. There is another ship that comes across some depressive and anxiety provoking spots on the course. The captain consults with other captains and finds out the destination was foolish. But through this process they are able to iterate on setting better and better destinations. The problem space of life is combinatorially explosive. No one knows the exact best destination, and best destinations both differ from ship to ship and also change over time. Anxiety and depression gets a bad rep but in their non-toxic forms they want us to ask "can I do it" and "is it worth it" respectively. This helps us setting better and better courses. Chronic anxiety and depression are the ones that are sticky. They tell us "you can't do anything" and "nothing is worth it". Then the right approach (as this article aligns with) is to accept and commit (ACT), and balance them with the participatory knowledge of life, aligned with our values, which in turn (hopefully) informs us that we can do some things pretty well and there are still many things that are worth it.
riffraff 6y ago
This doesn't seem to say what the title says. It reads more like "self motivation has inverse correlation with depression, anxiety". I.e. it's not a matter of telling people to have a goal to avoid depression, but rather that people who are self motivated are also less prone to depression. That seems almost obvious, and it causes less cognitive dissonance for me.
JamesBarney 6y ago
“Our findings suggest that people can improve their mental health by raising or maintaining high levels of tenacity, resilience and optimism,” she said. “Aspiring toward personal and career goals can make people feel like their lives have meaning. On the other hand, disengaging from striving toward those aims or having a cynical attitude can have high mental health costs.” No they don't. Your findings suggest that people who have more perseverance have reduced risk of depression and anxiety later in life. Additional research would be needed to prove that "we can increase perseverance by aspiring towards goals", and that "increasing perseverance reduces that individuals risk of anxiety and depression". And I would be very surprised if both of these are true.
- mirimir 6y ago
  Yes, correlation <> causality.
  - dorgo 6y ago
    But we are talking about psychology. I mean, I can improve my mood by smiling.
    - mirimir 6y ago
      Sure. But in my experience, what works better is remembering happy times. Or rather, represencing happy states. And once I'm being happy and optimistic, it's natural to persevere and accomplish stuff more effectively, and I have desired results. That is, "be -> do -> have". Which is just the opposite of the western cultural default of "have -> do -> be". As in: "If I were wealthy, I could do all this fun stuff, and then I'd be happy."
  - anbende 6y ago
    In general, you're right of course. The article in question used a lagged design, using temporally prior markers to predict later change. This is not fully causal, but it's not fully correlative either. In the field, it's consider to provide preliminary causal evidence. Still needs additional research to be sure.
bmitc 6y ago
In another article, "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off Perseverance Toward Life Goals". Unfortunately, I find this article seems to be supporting the ol' "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" method of treating mental disorders. What were the other aspects of the study? Were medications monitored? What level of therapy was being given? I don't see anything in the article that suggests it couldn't have been the case that those that improved in their battle with mental disorders had also been under the effect of successful medication and therapy and thus their perseverance toward or even identification of life goals was made possible through that.
- vmchale 6y ago
  > In another article, "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off Perseverance Toward Life Goals". Especially since the article said it was bidirectional :p
archibaldJ 6y ago
The heavy is the root of the light. The still is the master of unrest. Realizing this, the successful person is poised and centered in the midst of all activities; although surrounded by opulence, he is not swayed. Why should the lord of the country flit about like a fool? If you let yourself be blown to and fro, you lose touch with your root. To be restless is to lose one's self-mastery. - Lao Tzu
Arech 6y ago
Indeed. But that is quite...bad when life goals turns out to be unreachable.. What to do with perseverance then...
srg0 6y ago
It's not clear what is cause and what is effect. Healthier mind and body allow to pursue more opportunities and work on longer term goals. Any kind of disorder means that it's hard to get the normal stuff done.
ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago
I still putting lot of perseverance into this hell... am neither feeling depressed, anxious nor panicked... :D
david_draco 6y ago
A major cause of depression is the feeling of loss of control of ones life, and lack of security. For example, you are bullied/harassed at work, or someone takes credit for your work, but this is compounded by not being able to report it (because of conflict of interest in HR, or because it would not help) and not being able to quit, because of financial difficulties, or because the company will give you bad recommendations then. Or your family members put you under pressure to follow a certain life path, and you cannot escape. Then the observed correlation would be the reverse causation of the article.
brachika 6y ago
I would somewhat agree, I grew up in a third world European country (yeah, we exist) and I realized, compared to a lot of people in Western Countries, people here (older people at least, the younger generation is influenced by the west) are extremely stubborn and perseverant, spending much of their time thinking about how they can provide and being optimistic considering all the factors, thus being less susceptible to depression and anxiety. A lot of my family were optimistic and happy, even though they worked long hours, and tried to make it, and generally we didn't have problems with mental issues (even though we've been through an economic crisis, wars, poverty, famine, etc...)
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cJ0th 6y ago
While most here see some merit in such research - or at least in debating it, to me it seems utterly meaningless. These papers seem like mere artefacts of the researcher's mind. At best, they learn a lot by (re)defining the problem, looking into different methods for testing their hypothesis ... Personally, I never understood how mental unease can be tackled on the verbal level. Even if your definition of "perseverance", for instance, appears very succinct - there is no way it will mean the same to me in a couple of days, months or even years. In fact, because of this I constantly have to redefine my mental models to minimize the time I stay passive/goal-less. This may not sound so bad, but it is emotionally rather taxing and I still spend a lot of time down in the dumps.
- tus88 6y ago
  > While most here see some merit in such research - or at least in debating it, to me it seems utterly meaningless Psychology in a nutshell.
anonmidniteshpr 6y ago
Maybe. I was very depressed trying to earn a BS CSEE degree that took me 13 years (1997-2009). I started with severe depression, anxiety, and ADHD but didn't know it and went untreated for most of the time. I did it, but went bankrupt, became homeless, couldn't hold a job, and still have $9k in loans held by Betsy DeVos' Navient that will never go away. Not sure I'm a good anecdotal example. Got it done, but at the cost of switching temp jobs only to not be hired back because the lab moved cities and reorganized. On SSI disability and Medicare now (which took about 7 years and a lawyer to get), which sucks because I don't want to depend on them. :(
vermooten 6y ago
Great - but if you're depressed / anxious then it's harder to persevere.
LatteLazy 6y ago
Stocism (actually reading Meditations by Marcus Auralius, not just "stiff upper lip" BS) and exercise were all that worked for me. If you're suffering please try those and note how you feel the next day, 2 days, 3 days.
- aluth 6y ago
  Agreed, though I've found Seneca's letters to be more insightful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_Morales_ad_Lucilium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_Morales_ad_Lucilium), as well as the The Enchiridion (http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html).
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circlefavshape 6y ago
How about just not having life goals in the first place? Then you don't have to give up on them, and don't need to get sad about it
cblconfederate 6y ago
We 've established by now that correlation equals causation, to our preferred direction.
stared 6y ago
...until it fails. I am a person who's perseverance towards my life goals caused depression, anxiety, and panic disorders. And almost my life. I wanted to become a top scientist. Yet, the academic path is full of disillusionment (mainly with the system). Perseverance gave me the power to go through sacrifices one after another and to carry on. However, only after I let it go (and turning to data science / deep learning), I became much happier and emotionally stable. (A longer version here: https://p.migdal.pl/2015/12/14/sci-to-data-sci.html https://p.migdal.pl/2015/12/14/sci-to-data-sci.html) "Perseverance is good" is a dangerous survival bias fallacy.
- codeknight11 6y ago
  Is that your blog? Thanks for sharing your perspective
whatnidnogg 6y ago
i agree
whatnidnogg 6y ago
i agree. thanks hacker news. i love you all.
timwaagh 6y ago
Is it possible those who gave up on their life goals were forced to do so whereas those continuing towards life goals did so because they were making good progress? Could just be another 'winners are not losers' study
podgaj 6y ago
I do not know how many people here have "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders" but I am on disability for all three and it runs in my family on my mother's side. So what is this article saying? Me and my family just do not have perseverance? That we lack the "will" not to be depressed and anxious? That I just need to "Aspir[e] toward personal and career goals"? HA! No, it's not true. You see, they found we all have a genetic disorder (GCH1 Deficiency). After I yelled at my doctors for years to look more deeply they finally found that it was not that I did not have goals, but that I needed a low protein diet and some medications that a psychiatrist could not give me, and now I am doing better. Now I can have goals. So while this article might be true for some people with situational depression, I hate these studies because people always said crap like this to me. I was "lazy" and just needed a hobby, and on and on. They psychiatric association does not recognize, still, that mood disorders can be caused by metabolic issues. When they say I do not have enough serotonin and I ask them why they looked at me like they were in Psych 101. And these articles make psychiatrists lazy, putting all the effort on the patient while they sit back and collect check after check.
- codeknight11 6y ago
  I am curious. How does protein intake affect mental health?
  - podgaj 6y ago
    Since we do not make enough BH4 (tetrahydrobiopterin) with this enzyme deficiency we cannot metabolize the amino acids needed to make serotonin, dopamine, and Nirtic Oxide. And then some of these amino acids turn into trace amines that act like meth. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/779279 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/7... https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/382815/fnins-12-00499-HTML/image_m/fnins-12-00499-g002.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/382815/fnins-12-0...
  - pygy_ 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTP_cyclohydrolase_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTP_cyclohydrolase_I The deficiency causes problems with amino acid metabolism, which themselves mess up the brain. The depression was a mere symptom of the underlying disease. When you read the DSM, you realize there are no mental illnesses, just syndromes: sets of signs and symptoms. Except in select few cases, the pathophysiology is unknown.
jojobas 6y ago
This presumes there's free will, for which there's little evidence. Different bioelectric robots tend to either perseverance or depression, which is no surprise.
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rglover 6y ago
Think some people here can benefit from reading these two: https://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Opportunities-Reality-Anthony-Mello/dp/0385249373 https://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Opportunities-Reality-Antho... https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Be-Disliked-Phenomenon-Happiness/dp/1501197274/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1Z920RPOC9CSL&dchild=1&keywords=the+courage+to+be+disliked&qid=1595596222&s=books&sprefix=courage+to+be+disliked%2Cstripbooks%2C164&sr=1-2 https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Be-Disliked-Phenomenon-Happin... Why? They help to rewire your brain and help you detach from a lot of the things and ideas. Not a silver bullet (depression is one of several, natural, human states) but may help some who want to avoid the pharmacological route.
vmchale 6y ago
Surprised it works with panic disorders.
JediWing 6y ago
Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off Perseverance Toward Life Goals
makz 6y ago
I'm very fond of Goku and Dragon Ball because they taught me this.
Shared404 6y ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding... People without $DISORDER show less symptoms of $DISORDER.
- Shared404 6y ago
  And, 7 hours later properly reading comments... Everyone already said this. Sorry.
Decker87 6y ago
I've experienced this in the opposite direction: depression and anxiety have been effective at preventing life goals.
DrLindemann 6y ago
Like in a lot of social science stuff, causalities are mixed up. People who can align their goals and life plan with their surrounding environment are less likely to suffer from “depression”. I never understood the concept of depression. In the definition lies the key of the problem. It looks like depression is an incapability to adapt / fit or an inability to use the given circumstances and integrate them into the own life or make use of them. The problem has more than one side. Since therapeutics can’t change the environment, and it’s easier to try to change the single “patient”, that’s the focus of the “therapy”. Even if that means to break the patient. Social systems integrate people, to make use and make value of them. And if that does not work, to take them out under controlled condition. The other side of the “depression” problem is estrangement. Modern social science neglects the concept of estrangement. It is easier and more profitable to publish self-referential and tautological articles and follow the stream. Opportunism and system conformity are the driving forces of most social structures – that does not exclude the academia.
msohailshah 6y ago
Goals seem pointless after one achieves them. They also seem pointless when you need to devote mental energy for self protection from psychological and physical violence.

474 points by pmoriarty 6y ago

mysore 6y ago

Thanks I needed this

dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
Yes great post thank you.

GaylordTuring 6y ago

Or the act of fending off depression, anxiety, and panic disorders can positively influence perseverance toward life goals. That’s a just as valid conclusion from the data.

johnfn 6y ago
Yeah, absolutely. > participants were asked to rate their goal persistence (e.g., “When I encounter problems, I don’t give up until I solve them”), self-mastery (e.g., “I can do just anything I really set my mind to”) and positive reappraisal (e.g., “I can find something positive, even in the worst situations”). Diagnoses for major depressive, anxiety and panic disorders were also collected at each interval. > People who showed more goal persistence and optimism during the first assessment in the mid-1990s had greater reductions in depression, anxiety and panic disorders across the 18 years, according to the authors. Not only is your conclusion a valid one from the data, I'd say that it should very well by the default conclusion. Answering low on their goal-persistence questions would be obvious flags for being depressed. Especially because there's no casual link that can be established, the most I could say from reading this article is that if you aren't interested in pursuing goals, you may be depressed.
- qppo 6y ago
  I think causal links are hard to come by in any science, but here the important tidbit is that particular emotions (perseverance towards ones goals) were correlated with less incidence or severity of disorders, compared to others (a feeling of control of ones environment/future). The value here is that showing the existence of an emotion earlier in ones life is correlated to lessening of symptoms later is that it helps therapists know which emotions and behaviors to target during long term treatment like cognitive/behavioral therapy. At least that's how I read it, I'm not a professional
  - kayodelycaon 6y ago
    Or it could be that mental disorders compromise the ability to have perseverance. Given what we know about mental illness, this is the more likely.
- xvilka 6y ago
  It could be just both correlate independently with a third, unknown variable that represents some unknown or unaccounted psychological property of mind.
deleted 6y ago
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danhak 6y ago
Or it's not "or" but "and," with the the two feeding each other in a positive feedback loop.

avindroth 6y ago

But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”? Very few people tend to look at the mind as a system, and also seem to ignore that depression, anxiety, panic disorders, etc. happen for a reason. The reason why modern humanity have increased risk of these symptoms is because they know, given their perhaps wrongly learned models of the world or otherwise, that even when they achieve their so-called life goals, that they wouldn’t achieve philosophical nor psychological satisfaction that they seek. Their mind has predicted the conclusion of their efforts, and the conclusion lies far below what they seek. Thus the mind desperately attempts to re-understand, re-configure, and re-model the world to achieve its goals. But instead what is espoused by modern psychology and self-help is a kind of blind optimism or a horse blinders kind of approach to tending one’s mind. Most types of meditative studies also force this notion of blindness. Depression and anxiety and other “disorders” (whose classification from its onset is very unhelpful for its ideological integration into society as a valid problem to work through) most often happen to those who are sensitive, those who have surprisingly extensive models of the world, etc. But it has become very fashionable in SV intelligentsia and the communities that drink the intelligence soup that trickles down from the SV community (like other cities of America or other America-directed tech communities) to treat the mind as a dumb system that did a poor job evolving to a modern environment (e.g. rationality movement). Instead of understanding the mind (and consequently the body) as a system and listening to whatever small traces your mind has left in its great attempt to solve really important problems for you, we just blind ourselves to faux goals that we may not even actually want. Optimization for optimization’s sake is bad, but goal-seeking for goal-seeking’s sake may be a significantly worse and dangerous meme.

Swizec 6y ago
Reading Viktor Frankl’s book Man’s Search for Meaning has been the best thing I ever read on this topic. Changed my whole perspective. The tldr version goes something like: “Meaning is irrelevant, but humans need meaning to live. Pick any meaning you want. Doesn’t matter what, just choose something. Then go for it with all your might. If you ever find it wasn’t a good meaning, pick a new one. You’re a different person now anyway”
- 6y ago

insickness 6y ago

This is the point of Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. If you try to be happy, you will likely fail. But if instead, you try to give your life meaning and purpose, you will more likely find happiness orthogonally.

Zelphyr 6y ago

While I'm not a psychologist my reading of that seems to confirm one of the aspects of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) which is to clarify ones values and work towards them. For example; it might be one's goal to travel to another country but they are afraid of flying. Traveling is a goal/value thus they would work towards accepting the presence and sensations of the fear of flying in order to achieve that goal. That's a greatly simplified description of ACT but you get the gist.

maybelsyrup 6y ago
I'm a therapist, and I'm also an ACT practitioner. You're on the money here, though I'd encourage you to think even bigger. To use your example about travel: extend it further. In ACT, goals and values couldn't be more different, and we spend a lot of time helping patients distinguish between the two. "Traveling" is a goal - the value would be found in "why travel?", what does it get you? If the answer to that is then something like "it gets me a sense of adventure", then the "value" (as defined in ACT, anyway) might be just that: you want to live adventurously, and traveling is a "goal" that you believe, at least for now, can bring you a little bit of that. In fact, one of my favorite ACT exercises is finding adverbs that fit these ideas, because adverbs cannot be "attained" like goals can. That's the whole problem with goals, in fact, that leads indirectly to a lot of pain: goals can be attained. ACT is lovely, but I'm biased. If you have any questions please ask!
- aurbano 6y ago
  That sounds really fascinating! Could you give more examples of those adverbs, or ACT in general? Do you apply it in your own life, and if so, how? (If you don’t mind sharing!)
- dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
  Can you give an example of the adverb thing?
  - aspenmayer 6y ago
    Not OP. One may may have the desire to think of oneself as one who lives adventurously [adverb modifying the verb lives]. Yet this same person may find some of the roles, activities, or trappings of actual adventuring; that is, the things one does to be considered adventurous by oneself and/or by others; to be not actually be enjoyable or tolerable to themselves, which creates tension within an individual, which could easily lead to self-blame. This is my interpretation of why this concept may be a useful aid to help one step outside their own perspective, and possibly help reveal unconscious desires, motivations, fears, and more.

viburnum 6y ago

This is like the grit discourse, just blaming people for not trying hard enough.

kayodelycaon 6y ago
People that have overcome difficulty can end up lacking empathy for those who haven’t. “I got here, you didn’t. Therefore, you must not have tried hard enough.” Hear it every day.

softwaredoug 6y ago

The problem seems to be finding worthwhile and realistic goals that are worth persevering for. And frankly I get depressed and anxious just thinking about that. (Edit not at all being flip, How to spend my limited time creates a lot of anxiety and depression. I doubt I’m alone)

m3kw9 6y ago

Boredom is a heck of a depressor.

kissgyorgy 6y ago

> People who showed more goal persistence and optimism... had greater reductions in depression ... Isn't a big part of depression is pessimism? I feel like this sentence is the same as saying "People who showed no signs of depression ... had greater reductions in depression"

NeutronStar 6y ago
I read it as people who are less depressed have it easier to become non depressed. which isn't saying much.
vmchale 6y ago
The paper says its a bidirectional association.

eric4smith 6y ago

Yes to this. I often counsel my younger friends to have a "mission". Then once that is completed, to find another one. In fact, one can have multiple missions running at the same time. It's rarely said that marriage, kids, job, degree, a house, car, and most physical things are not missions. And in fact, most of these things -- unless accompanied by a "why am i doing this" and attendant missions/goals do not lead to happiness. Marriage without goals = divorce. Kids without mission = abandonment. Money without a plan = poverty. Degree without a plan = debt/sadness. Relationship without a mission = break up. Programming without a mission = abandoned code.

andi999 6y ago
Since you explained what are not missions, can you give examples for missions?
- eric4smith 6y ago
  Sure, here are just a few. 1. Rearing children with the goal of making them read at 2 years old. Then with the goal of learning calculus at 10. Then others as they grow older. 2. Learning programming by writing a real system that actual people will use -- instead of code katas or reading programming books or attending a boot camp. 3. Marrying not only for love, but with the intention of building a business or farm together. 4. Buying a house, with the knowledge you will sell it or convert it into a rental in a certain number of years. Then repeat with another house. 5. Starting a social media account to cover a specific topic, instead of making random posts about anything (have you noticed the most successful accounts are about one topic??). 6. Taking a degree with the intention of using it in a specific way and knowing how much money you will make to pay off the loan and live a comfortable life. 7. Buying a "beater" car, because you want to hire a new offshore employee for a side project instead of making a high lease payment to the bank. The world is filled with the stories of people who do things purely on emotion and never had "missions" or a "why" they did the thing.
  - ooobit2 6y ago
    Alright. Because this personally applies for me, what about creating missions of past decisions made without missions? (This sounds naive, but I could use some insight.) For ex. I did my undergrad in IT Security. I did an MSDA. I ended up in professional sales. I don't know what to do with all this. I've been good at tackling hard subjects my entire life, but how do you craft a mission from a hodgepodge of difficult and unrelated skillsets?

sizzle 6y ago

The downside to this is forming an addiction e.g. get in shape and look good --> eating disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, etc. It's so easy to fall into this trap of obsessing over achieving your one goal to the detriment of your health and sanity (developing OCD, etc.) Can anyone relate? for me it was the gym which spilled over into unhealthy diets and unhealthy relationship to eating normal food that had carbs like it was going to kill me until I realized how obsessed I was becoming and quit the gym for outdoor activities.

x86ARMsRace 6y ago
I can definitely relate, except not for the gym type of goals, rather academic goals. I was studying STEM to be a researcher initially. I sunk pretty much every minute of my time into trying to achieve that. Despite this, I just could not get the marks needed to get where I wanted. That destroyed my mental health for a long time. I tied my self-worth into my education, and that only. I ended up developing something very similar to OCD that I still struggle with today. Ended up giving up on that pursuit, and went into the software world and became a developer. It was really hard throwing that previous dream out, sunk cost and all, but I have never been happier than I am now. I realized that my single focus and obsession about achieving that specific goal meant that the rest of my life had been essentially halted. That's not the case anymore. I think sometimes, at least for myself, we can get so caught up in the idealized end goal, that we forget that life happens between now and the end goal. If we don't take care of ourselves between those two end-points, we will either never reach that goal, or when we do, be unable to appreciate it.

cmehdy 6y ago

I couldn't find the actual paper with this press release, even when searching on the website itself (which ended up just returning blank pages to me for some reason). I found more info through another website[0]. At least this helps me, in principle, rule out the idea that they could have been mixing correlation and causation. The one thing that surprises me is that they quickly go on to conclude that therapies should focus on what they studied. Quote: "Treatments for MDD, GAD, and PD should attempt to enhance perseverance and optimism." A predictor isn't necessarily an actuator. I think that a few steps are skipped if a predictor is immediately used as a tool to correct an issue rather than to primarily track it. They would need to do a separate study to know IF one possible new treatment can come out of training in "goal persistence". There are other ways to think about the results. For example, some of the criteria to diagnose a Major Depressive Disorder could be refined thanks to this kind of research. If a sort of "goal" or "persistence" assessment is tracked, the intensity of the disorder might be better perceived, which in turn could mean that therapists and psychiatrists could work towards more fitting treatment amongst what is already researched and known. In any case, as someone with a fairly intense mix of two of the disorders in this study, I am always happy to see some research come out (especially when n >> 3 undergrads who were passing by). [0] https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fabn0000428 https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fabn0000428

aspenmayer 6y ago
I missed it on the first read too: it’s at the very top where it says Read the journal article Something about the format or style of that part of the page made my mind assume it was a link to a related page and my eyes just skipped right over it. I have included the link for you below. https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/abn-abn0000428.pdf https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/abn-abn0000428.pd...
- cmehdy 6y ago
  Thank you! I'll take a better look at the whole thing now. It seems like that journal works with a focus on empirical data but empirical doesn't necessarily mean robust statistical methods, however the paper seems to be actually serious about this.

todaysAI 6y ago

I developed https://www.activegoals.net https://www.activegoals.net with mental health in mind especially since I deal a lot with the autism community who usually have poor executive functioning.

totetsu 6y ago
I couldn't play the video on your site in chrome on android even after downloading it. It played in vlc. Maybe check your codec

jcun4128 6y ago

I'll build something and then after it's done think "why did I do that?" But I guess it was fun during the process/before it existed. Lately though I've been thinking something isn't a waste of time if it makes money.

non-entity 6y ago

I used to keep together at some of worse times of my life by persevering towards goals, but nowadays everything just feels intangible or unrealistic. Not sure why, maybe because I realize I have less and less control over things. I guess right now things ar worse by the coronavirus and the fact that theres little I can do now. These past few months have been incredibly similar to past instances of self-imposed isolation.

sfgweilr4f 6y ago

There's a ship. It has no captain, no crew. Where is it going? There's another ship. It has a captain and crew but no destination is set. Where is it going? There's another ship. It has captain, crew, destination but no course is set. Where is it going? There's another ship. It has captain, crew, destination and a course set. Everyone is ready to go and intends to go. Where is it going? Only one of these ships will set sail, leave the harbor, reach a set of map points, follow that course and arrive at its destination. Regardless of being driven off course due to bad weather or other circumstance, only one has a real chance. "Perseverance cultivates a sense of purposefulness that can create resilience against or decrease current levels of major depressive disorders..." Sort of. Purpose means perseverance is useful. Lack of purpose means perseverance, resilience or even the least effort can be wasted.

adventured 6y ago
> Sort of. Purpose means perseverance is useful. Lack of purpose means perseverance, resilience or even the least effort can be wasted. That's taken care of right in the title: "perseverance toward life goals"
acituan 6y ago
There's another ship. It has captain, crew, destination and a course set. Turns out the destination sucks, but it is too late once they arrive. There is another ship that comes across some depressive and anxiety provoking spots on the course. The captain consults with other captains and finds out the destination was foolish. But through this process they are able to iterate on setting better and better destinations. The problem space of life is combinatorially explosive. No one knows the exact best destination, and best destinations both differ from ship to ship and also change over time. Anxiety and depression gets a bad rep but in their non-toxic forms they want us to ask "can I do it" and "is it worth it" respectively. This helps us setting better and better courses. Chronic anxiety and depression are the ones that are sticky. They tell us "you can't do anything" and "nothing is worth it". Then the right approach (as this article aligns with) is to accept and commit (ACT), and balance them with the participatory knowledge of life, aligned with our values, which in turn (hopefully) informs us that we can do some things pretty well and there are still many things that are worth it.

riffraff 6y ago

This doesn't seem to say what the title says. It reads more like "self motivation has inverse correlation with depression, anxiety". I.e. it's not a matter of telling people to have a goal to avoid depression, but rather that people who are self motivated are also less prone to depression. That seems almost obvious, and it causes less cognitive dissonance for me.

JamesBarney 6y ago

“Our findings suggest that people can improve their mental health by raising or maintaining high levels of tenacity, resilience and optimism,” she said. “Aspiring toward personal and career goals can make people feel like their lives have meaning. On the other hand, disengaging from striving toward those aims or having a cynical attitude can have high mental health costs.” No they don't. Your findings suggest that people who have more perseverance have reduced risk of depression and anxiety later in life. Additional research would be needed to prove that "we can increase perseverance by aspiring towards goals", and that "increasing perseverance reduces that individuals risk of anxiety and depression". And I would be very surprised if both of these are true.

mirimir 6y ago
Yes, correlation <> causality.
- dorgo 6y ago
  But we are talking about psychology. I mean, I can improve my mood by smiling.
  - mirimir 6y ago
    Sure. But in my experience, what works better is remembering happy times. Or rather, represencing happy states. And once I'm being happy and optimistic, it's natural to persevere and accomplish stuff more effectively, and I have desired results. That is, "be -> do -> have". Which is just the opposite of the western cultural default of "have -> do -> be". As in: "If I were wealthy, I could do all this fun stuff, and then I'd be happy."
- anbende 6y ago
  In general, you're right of course. The article in question used a lagged design, using temporally prior markers to predict later change. This is not fully causal, but it's not fully correlative either. In the field, it's consider to provide preliminary causal evidence. Still needs additional research to be sure.

bmitc 6y ago

In another article, "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off Perseverance Toward Life Goals". Unfortunately, I find this article seems to be supporting the ol' "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" method of treating mental disorders. What were the other aspects of the study? Were medications monitored? What level of therapy was being given? I don't see anything in the article that suggests it couldn't have been the case that those that improved in their battle with mental disorders had also been under the effect of successful medication and therapy and thus their perseverance toward or even identification of life goals was made possible through that.

vmchale 6y ago
> In another article, "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off Perseverance Toward Life Goals". Especially since the article said it was bidirectional :p

archibaldJ 6y ago

The heavy is the root of the light. The still is the master of unrest. Realizing this, the successful person is poised and centered in the midst of all activities; although surrounded by opulence, he is not swayed. Why should the lord of the country flit about like a fool? If you let yourself be blown to and fro, you lose touch with your root. To be restless is to lose one's self-mastery. - Lao Tzu

Arech 6y ago

Indeed. But that is quite...bad when life goals turns out to be unreachable.. What to do with perseverance then...

srg0 6y ago

It's not clear what is cause and what is effect. Healthier mind and body allow to pursue more opportunities and work on longer term goals. Any kind of disorder means that it's hard to get the normal stuff done.

ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago

I still putting lot of perseverance into this hell... am neither feeling depressed, anxious nor panicked... :D

david_draco 6y ago

A major cause of depression is the feeling of loss of control of ones life, and lack of security. For example, you are bullied/harassed at work, or someone takes credit for your work, but this is compounded by not being able to report it (because of conflict of interest in HR, or because it would not help) and not being able to quit, because of financial difficulties, or because the company will give you bad recommendations then. Or your family members put you under pressure to follow a certain life path, and you cannot escape. Then the observed correlation would be the reverse causation of the article.

brachika 6y ago

I would somewhat agree, I grew up in a third world European country (yeah, we exist) and I realized, compared to a lot of people in Western Countries, people here (older people at least, the younger generation is influenced by the west) are extremely stubborn and perseverant, spending much of their time thinking about how they can provide and being optimistic considering all the factors, thus being less susceptible to depression and anxiety. A lot of my family were optimistic and happy, even though they worked long hours, and tried to make it, and generally we didn't have problems with mental issues (even though we've been through an economic crisis, wars, poverty, famine, etc...)

deleted 6y ago

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cJ0th 6y ago

While most here see some merit in such research - or at least in debating it, to me it seems utterly meaningless. These papers seem like mere artefacts of the researcher's mind. At best, they learn a lot by (re)defining the problem, looking into different methods for testing their hypothesis ... Personally, I never understood how mental unease can be tackled on the verbal level. Even if your definition of "perseverance", for instance, appears very succinct - there is no way it will mean the same to me in a couple of days, months or even years. In fact, because of this I constantly have to redefine my mental models to minimize the time I stay passive/goal-less. This may not sound so bad, but it is emotionally rather taxing and I still spend a lot of time down in the dumps.

tus88 6y ago
> While most here see some merit in such research - or at least in debating it, to me it seems utterly meaningless Psychology in a nutshell.

anonmidniteshpr 6y ago

Maybe. I was very depressed trying to earn a BS CSEE degree that took me 13 years (1997-2009). I started with severe depression, anxiety, and ADHD but didn't know it and went untreated for most of the time. I did it, but went bankrupt, became homeless, couldn't hold a job, and still have $9k in loans held by Betsy DeVos' Navient that will never go away. Not sure I'm a good anecdotal example. Got it done, but at the cost of switching temp jobs only to not be hired back because the lab moved cities and reorganized. On SSI disability and Medicare now (which took about 7 years and a lawyer to get), which sucks because I don't want to depend on them. :(

vermooten 6y ago

Great - but if you're depressed / anxious then it's harder to persevere.

LatteLazy 6y ago

Stocism (actually reading Meditations by Marcus Auralius, not just "stiff upper lip" BS) and exercise were all that worked for me. If you're suffering please try those and note how you feel the next day, 2 days, 3 days.

aluth 6y ago
Agreed, though I've found Seneca's letters to be more insightful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_Morales_ad_Lucilium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_Morales_ad_Lucilium), as well as the The Enchiridion (http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html).

deleted 6y ago

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circlefavshape 6y ago

How about just not having life goals in the first place? Then you don't have to give up on them, and don't need to get sad about it

cblconfederate 6y ago

We 've established by now that correlation equals causation, to our preferred direction.

stared 6y ago

...until it fails. I am a person who's perseverance towards my life goals caused depression, anxiety, and panic disorders. And almost my life. I wanted to become a top scientist. Yet, the academic path is full of disillusionment (mainly with the system). Perseverance gave me the power to go through sacrifices one after another and to carry on. However, only after I let it go (and turning to data science / deep learning), I became much happier and emotionally stable. (A longer version here: https://p.migdal.pl/2015/12/14/sci-to-data-sci.html https://p.migdal.pl/2015/12/14/sci-to-data-sci.html) "Perseverance is good" is a dangerous survival bias fallacy.

codeknight11 6y ago
Is that your blog? Thanks for sharing your perspective

whatnidnogg 6y ago

i agree

whatnidnogg 6y ago

i agree. thanks hacker news. i love you all.

timwaagh 6y ago

Is it possible those who gave up on their life goals were forced to do so whereas those continuing towards life goals did so because they were making good progress? Could just be another 'winners are not losers' study

podgaj 6y ago

I do not know how many people here have "Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders" but I am on disability for all three and it runs in my family on my mother's side. So what is this article saying? Me and my family just do not have perseverance? That we lack the "will" not to be depressed and anxious? That I just need to "Aspir[e] toward personal and career goals"? HA! No, it's not true. You see, they found we all have a genetic disorder (GCH1 Deficiency). After I yelled at my doctors for years to look more deeply they finally found that it was not that I did not have goals, but that I needed a low protein diet and some medications that a psychiatrist could not give me, and now I am doing better. Now I can have goals. So while this article might be true for some people with situational depression, I hate these studies because people always said crap like this to me. I was "lazy" and just needed a hobby, and on and on. They psychiatric association does not recognize, still, that mood disorders can be caused by metabolic issues. When they say I do not have enough serotonin and I ask them why they looked at me like they were in Psych 101. And these articles make psychiatrists lazy, putting all the effort on the patient while they sit back and collect check after check.

codeknight11 6y ago
I am curious. How does protein intake affect mental health?
- podgaj 6y ago
  Since we do not make enough BH4 (tetrahydrobiopterin) with this enzyme deficiency we cannot metabolize the amino acids needed to make serotonin, dopamine, and Nirtic Oxide. And then some of these amino acids turn into trace amines that act like meth. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/779279 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/7... https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/382815/fnins-12-00499-HTML/image_m/fnins-12-00499-g002.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/382815/fnins-12-0...
- pygy_ 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTP_cyclohydrolase_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTP_cyclohydrolase_I The deficiency causes problems with amino acid metabolism, which themselves mess up the brain. The depression was a mere symptom of the underlying disease. When you read the DSM, you realize there are no mental illnesses, just syndromes: sets of signs and symptoms. Except in select few cases, the pathophysiology is unknown.

jojobas 6y ago

This presumes there's free will, for which there's little evidence. Different bioelectric robots tend to either perseverance or depression, which is no surprise.

deleted 6y ago

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rglover 6y ago

Think some people here can benefit from reading these two: https://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Opportunities-Reality-Anthony-Mello/dp/0385249373 https://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Opportunities-Reality-Antho... https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Be-Disliked-Phenomenon-Happiness/dp/1501197274/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1Z920RPOC9CSL&dchild=1&keywords=the+courage+to+be+disliked&qid=1595596222&s=books&sprefix=courage+to+be+disliked%2Cstripbooks%2C164&sr=1-2 https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Be-Disliked-Phenomenon-Happin... Why? They help to rewire your brain and help you detach from a lot of the things and ideas. Not a silver bullet (depression is one of several, natural, human states) but may help some who want to avoid the pharmacological route.

vmchale 6y ago

Surprised it works with panic disorders.

JediWing 6y ago

Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders Can Fend Off Perseverance Toward Life Goals

makz 6y ago

I'm very fond of Goku and Dragon Ball because they taught me this.

Shared404 6y ago

Unless I'm misunderstanding... People without $DISORDER show less symptoms of $DISORDER.

Shared404 6y ago
And, 7 hours later properly reading comments... Everyone already said this. Sorry.

Decker87 6y ago

I've experienced this in the opposite direction: depression and anxiety have been effective at preventing life goals.

DrLindemann 6y ago

Like in a lot of social science stuff, causalities are mixed up. People who can align their goals and life plan with their surrounding environment are less likely to suffer from “depression”. I never understood the concept of depression. In the definition lies the key of the problem. It looks like depression is an incapability to adapt / fit or an inability to use the given circumstances and integrate them into the own life or make use of them. The problem has more than one side. Since therapeutics can’t change the environment, and it’s easier to try to change the single “patient”, that’s the focus of the “therapy”. Even if that means to break the patient. Social systems integrate people, to make use and make value of them. And if that does not work, to take them out under controlled condition. The other side of the “depression” problem is estrangement. Modern social science neglects the concept of estrangement. It is easier and more profitable to publish self-referential and tautological articles and follow the stream. Opportunism and system conformity are the driving forces of most social structures – that does not exclude the academia.

msohailshah 6y ago

Goals seem pointless after one achieves them. They also seem pointless when you need to devote mental energy for self protection from psychological and physical violence.