6 ms·

There's several layers of irony here, chief of which Bari Weiss headed a very vocal campaign to fire anyone at Colombia who didn't exist on the far-right on Isr

by alecb 6y ago

There's several layers of irony here, chief of which Bari Weiss headed a very vocal campaign to fire anyone at Colombia who didn't exist on the far-right on Israel/Palestine - and of course, falsely painted several professors as racist and anti-Semitic: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-falsely-denies-her-years-of-attacks-on-the-academic-freedom-of-arab-scholars-who-criticize-israel/ https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

caycep 6y ago
Also reading the tone of her columns and the accusations she's made in them, I read anything she writes with a very large grain of salt...
- Veen 6y ago
  How about you mention some of the accusations you're referring to instead of making an unsubstantiated accusation of your own.
LegitShady 6y ago
There are many things I disagree with Weiss on, including her previous flirtation with cancel culture, but by attacking her with an article from 2 years ago instead of addressing what she is talking about directly is not really honest debate. There is a cleaving point coming for those who believe in Liberal values and the nyt has already chosen the side of extreme ideological orthodoxy.
- throwanem 6y ago
  I mean, Weiss herself attacks the NYT for a two-year-old interview with Alice Walker, although she's not especially upfront about it, preferring instead to talk about an interview from May while describing - and in a highly tendentious way, at that - the controversy over Walker's 2018 NYT interview. Live by the gun -
- kup0 6y ago
  Unless there's proof she's changed from then until now, I think it's a rather relevant proof of hypocrisy and that one should rightly doubt whether what she's saying now is just more of the same
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  I think there are definitely some points in her essay that ring true. But the author engaging in behavior only 2 years ago that she is condemning today is certainly a valid and relevant criticism.
- arrosenberg 6y ago
  > There is a cleaving point coming for those who believe in Liberal values and the nyt has already chosen the side of extreme ideological orthodoxy. I wouldn't say they chose it - under shareholder capitalism, they are beholden to maximizing the returns for their investors. Conservatives who like Bari Weiss (do such people exist?) probably aren't subscribing to the NY Times, while people who despise Bari Weiss and Tom Cotton are cancelling their subscriptions in protest.
kup0 6y ago
Yeah hard to take seriously someone who was "masquerading as an opponent of viewpoint intolerance" while simultaneously being intolerant of any viewpoints that aren't pro-Israel
- 0x8BADF00D 6y ago
  Whoa, cool it with the Anti-Semitism there buddy! /s
  - dang 6y ago
    We've banned this account for repeatedly making flamewar posts and ignoring our requests to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jimbokun 6y ago
  Can you give me a direct quote of her intolerance? I scanned the Greenwald article, but just saw quotes of other people saying she is bad, but not direct quotes of the bad things she said.
gfodor 6y ago
Hilarious that the top comment exemplifies the problem. It seems few today are still able to engage with ideas directly, always trying to filter them through some, any, lens to discredit the ones they don’t like. Sometimes it’s attacking the speaker, sometimes their associations, sometimes the tweets they have “liked.” If all else fails, seek out language in the text itself for unfalsifiable “dog whistles” that allow the affixing of a label. Whatever allows one to shield their eyes, ignore the argument made, and secure the moral high ground.
- dimgl 6y ago
  It's truly telling that the most upvoted comment is one working to discredit the writer, rather than taking what's being said at face value.
  - Redoubts 6y ago
    > rather than taking what's being said at face value Why should I be this credulous?
    - aaronbrethorst 6y ago
      It is incumbent upon all of us to be as credulous about Bari Weiss's stated rationale as James Bennett always was about guest op-eds.
    - dimgl 6y ago
      No one is asking you to be naive and all-accepting. Simply to not be dismissive.
  - duxup 6y ago
    >rather than taking what's being said at face value Should we? I don't always do that, hard to imagine doing so all the time, you'd experience constant whiplash of opinions.
    - dimgl 6y ago
banads 6y ago
The irony is inherent in the ideology. This is just one of many examples of that irony on full public display, cannibalizing itself.
horsemessiah 6y ago
Yeah, this letter she wrote is a joke.
zug_zug 6y ago
It may be ironic, but to pursue truth most rigorously, we should recognize the two points are logically independent. It's possible that these accusations are true and also that Weiss is a person with a political agenda.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deschutes 6y ago
I'm not familiar with the controversy, so I went looking for actual views of said professors. Wikipedia states 'Massad has characterized Israel as "a racist Jewish state."' There might be more to this story than Glenn Greenwald frothing at the mouth.
- some-guy 6y ago
  And yet, if I'm reading Weiss's resignation letter correctly, you would think that Massad should not be fired for that characterization.
  - jimbokun 6y ago
    Was he fired? Tried scanning Greenwald’s article, but didn’t see that mentioned.
    - some-guy 6y ago
      Meant to say *should, edited for clarity.
- ebg13 6y ago
  Can you clarify whether (and if so why) you have a problem with that characterization? > Wikipedia states 'Massad has characterized Israel as "a racist Jewish state."' Israel's own definition of self calls itself a "Jewish state" and says that the right to exercise national self-determination there is "unique to the Jewish people", so that "Jewish state" part is correct by definition. And it defines that Judaism is a race by birthright and not a religion, and it grants special privileges to jews that aren't granted to others and it metes special discriminations against its non-jewish resident minorities, so, without even getting into any discussion of the history of arab-israeli conflict, it's hard to argue seriously with the other part as well.
  - kps 6y ago
    > And it defines that Judaism is a race by birthright and not a religion That is factually incorrect. Conversions apply, in both directions.
BrickWayne 6y ago
This is not an accurate account of her actions. The tweet which Greenwald embeds in his article as evidence against her is here https://twitter.com/saeen90_/status/971562600315215872 https://twitter.com/saeen90_/status/971562600315215872. Watch the video underneath where she explains what her problem was with Professor Massad. In class, Massad referred to the Jenin massacre, a student raised her hand and pointed out the UN had dismissed the claims that the Battle of Jenin was a massacre, the professor kicked her out of class. A left-wing student from Israel asked him a question at a lecture. Massad noticed the student's accent then asked him if he was Israeli then asked him if he served in the IDF. He then demanded the student tell the group how many Palestinians he had killed. This is a little different from getting anyone who "didn't exist on the far-right on Israel/Palestine" fired as you put it. This documents the professor's views on Israel/Palestine[0]. I don't think you can characterise anything other then these views as being far right. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Massad#On_Israel_and_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Massad#On_Israel_and_Zi...
manigandham 6y ago
If true, this doesn’t disprove the stated criticisms in the letter but only further highlights how serious the issue is and how easily people fall into that behavior.
jimbokun 6y ago
Did you read that wall of text? I can’t find the part where she tries to get anyone “fired”. Just claims that she criticized Muslim scholars, and arguing that is automatically racist. I had a hard time finding direct quotes of the bad things she said, mostly just quotes from others saying how bad she is and how much they don’t like her.
starpilot 6y ago
You mean Columbia?
istjohn 6y ago
That's debatable. Consider this quote: > It’s worth repeating something else Bari Weiss said [in my April 13-19 column, “Columbia Whitewashes“]: “We are doing this because we believe in the rights of all Columbia students to dissent without fear of abuse. Yes, this means for conservative students as well as left-wingers, for Zionists as well as anti-Zionists. . . . Criticizing professors does not violate their academic freedom or stifle debate. It only adds to it.”[1] That doesn't sound like someone trying to get people fired. [1] https://www.villagevoice.com/2005/04/19/columbia-the-awakening/ https://www.villagevoice.com/2005/04/19/columbia-the-awakeni...
mancerayder 6y ago
This happened 15 years ago when she was a student. And how does this contradict the letter?

by alecb 6y ago

caycep 6y ago

Also reading the tone of her columns and the accusations she's made in them, I read anything she writes with a very large grain of salt...

Veen 6y ago
How about you mention some of the accusations you're referring to instead of making an unsubstantiated accusation of your own.

LegitShady 6y ago

There are many things I disagree with Weiss on, including her previous flirtation with cancel culture, but by attacking her with an article from 2 years ago instead of addressing what she is talking about directly is not really honest debate. There is a cleaving point coming for those who believe in Liberal values and the nyt has already chosen the side of extreme ideological orthodoxy.

throwanem 6y ago
I mean, Weiss herself attacks the NYT for a two-year-old interview with Alice Walker, although she's not especially upfront about it, preferring instead to talk about an interview from May while describing - and in a highly tendentious way, at that - the controversy over Walker's 2018 NYT interview. Live by the gun -
kup0 6y ago
Unless there's proof she's changed from then until now, I think it's a rather relevant proof of hypocrisy and that one should rightly doubt whether what she's saying now is just more of the same
JamesBarney 6y ago
I think there are definitely some points in her essay that ring true. But the author engaging in behavior only 2 years ago that she is condemning today is certainly a valid and relevant criticism.
arrosenberg 6y ago
> There is a cleaving point coming for those who believe in Liberal values and the nyt has already chosen the side of extreme ideological orthodoxy. I wouldn't say they chose it - under shareholder capitalism, they are beholden to maximizing the returns for their investors. Conservatives who like Bari Weiss (do such people exist?) probably aren't subscribing to the NY Times, while people who despise Bari Weiss and Tom Cotton are cancelling their subscriptions in protest.

kup0 6y ago

Yeah hard to take seriously someone who was "masquerading as an opponent of viewpoint intolerance" while simultaneously being intolerant of any viewpoints that aren't pro-Israel

0x8BADF00D 6y ago
Whoa, cool it with the Anti-Semitism there buddy! /s
- dang 6y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly making flamewar posts and ignoring our requests to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jimbokun 6y ago
Can you give me a direct quote of her intolerance? I scanned the Greenwald article, but just saw quotes of other people saying she is bad, but not direct quotes of the bad things she said.

gfodor 6y ago

Hilarious that the top comment exemplifies the problem. It seems few today are still able to engage with ideas directly, always trying to filter them through some, any, lens to discredit the ones they don’t like. Sometimes it’s attacking the speaker, sometimes their associations, sometimes the tweets they have “liked.” If all else fails, seek out language in the text itself for unfalsifiable “dog whistles” that allow the affixing of a label. Whatever allows one to shield their eyes, ignore the argument made, and secure the moral high ground.

dimgl 6y ago
It's truly telling that the most upvoted comment is one working to discredit the writer, rather than taking what's being said at face value.
- Redoubts 6y ago
  > rather than taking what's being said at face value Why should I be this credulous?
  - aaronbrethorst 6y ago
    It is incumbent upon all of us to be as credulous about Bari Weiss's stated rationale as James Bennett always was about guest op-eds.
  - dimgl 6y ago
    No one is asking you to be naive and all-accepting. Simply to not be dismissive.
- duxup 6y ago
  >rather than taking what's being said at face value Should we? I don't always do that, hard to imagine doing so all the time, you'd experience constant whiplash of opinions.
  - dimgl 6y ago

banads 6y ago

The irony is inherent in the ideology. This is just one of many examples of that irony on full public display, cannibalizing itself.

horsemessiah 6y ago

Yeah, this letter she wrote is a joke.

zug_zug 6y ago

It may be ironic, but to pursue truth most rigorously, we should recognize the two points are logically independent. It's possible that these accusations are true and also that Weiss is a person with a political agenda.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deschutes 6y ago

I'm not familiar with the controversy, so I went looking for actual views of said professors. Wikipedia states 'Massad has characterized Israel as "a racist Jewish state."' There might be more to this story than Glenn Greenwald frothing at the mouth.

some-guy 6y ago
And yet, if I'm reading Weiss's resignation letter correctly, you would think that Massad should not be fired for that characterization.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  Was he fired? Tried scanning Greenwald’s article, but didn’t see that mentioned.
  - some-guy 6y ago
    Meant to say *should, edited for clarity.
ebg13 6y ago
Can you clarify whether (and if so why) you have a problem with that characterization? > Wikipedia states 'Massad has characterized Israel as "a racist Jewish state."' Israel's own definition of self calls itself a "Jewish state" and says that the right to exercise national self-determination there is "unique to the Jewish people", so that "Jewish state" part is correct by definition. And it defines that Judaism is a race by birthright and not a religion, and it grants special privileges to jews that aren't granted to others and it metes special discriminations against its non-jewish resident minorities, so, without even getting into any discussion of the history of arab-israeli conflict, it's hard to argue seriously with the other part as well.
- kps 6y ago
  > And it defines that Judaism is a race by birthright and not a religion That is factually incorrect. Conversions apply, in both directions.

BrickWayne 6y ago

This is not an accurate account of her actions. The tweet which Greenwald embeds in his article as evidence against her is here https://twitter.com/saeen90_/status/971562600315215872 https://twitter.com/saeen90_/status/971562600315215872. Watch the video underneath where she explains what her problem was with Professor Massad. In class, Massad referred to the Jenin massacre, a student raised her hand and pointed out the UN had dismissed the claims that the Battle of Jenin was a massacre, the professor kicked her out of class. A left-wing student from Israel asked him a question at a lecture. Massad noticed the student's accent then asked him if he was Israeli then asked him if he served in the IDF. He then demanded the student tell the group how many Palestinians he had killed. This is a little different from getting anyone who "didn't exist on the far-right on Israel/Palestine" fired as you put it. This documents the professor's views on Israel/Palestine[0]. I don't think you can characterise anything other then these views as being far right. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Massad#On_Israel_and_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Massad#On_Israel_and_Zi...

manigandham 6y ago

If true, this doesn’t disprove the stated criticisms in the letter but only further highlights how serious the issue is and how easily people fall into that behavior.

jimbokun 6y ago

Did you read that wall of text? I can’t find the part where she tries to get anyone “fired”. Just claims that she criticized Muslim scholars, and arguing that is automatically racist. I had a hard time finding direct quotes of the bad things she said, mostly just quotes from others saying how bad she is and how much they don’t like her.

starpilot 6y ago

You mean Columbia?

istjohn 6y ago

That's debatable. Consider this quote: > It’s worth repeating something else Bari Weiss said [in my April 13-19 column, “Columbia Whitewashes“]: “We are doing this because we believe in the rights of all Columbia students to dissent without fear of abuse. Yes, this means for conservative students as well as left-wingers, for Zionists as well as anti-Zionists. . . . Criticizing professors does not violate their academic freedom or stifle debate. It only adds to it.”[1] That doesn't sound like someone trying to get people fired. [1] https://www.villagevoice.com/2005/04/19/columbia-the-awakening/ https://www.villagevoice.com/2005/04/19/columbia-the-awakeni...

mancerayder 6y ago

This happened 15 years ago when she was a student. And how does this contradict the letter?