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A $500M call option on home gyms

150 points by dshipper 6y ago

layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
> a beautiful, giant iPad that hangs on your wall So... a Tv?
- dwighttk 6y ago
  yeah, but vertical! And a built-in camera?
  - layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
    Most smart TVs have built-in cameras nowadays (unfortunately).
klipt 6y ago
> Mirror sells you the equivalent of a beautiful, giant iPad that hangs on your wall for $1,495. Then, if you pay a $39 monthly subscription, you can use a mobile app to turn the Mirror into a fitness class. Both on-demand and live classes are available for everything from yoga to boxing. Or you can just watch fitness classes on YouTube for free? Maybe I just don't have enough unwanted money to see the appeal of this.
- jariel 6y ago
  You could say the same for Peleton, but lo and behold, people truly love it. The totality of the experience matters, we know that by now. The sum of all the differences is a big thing. Maybe literally 'seeing yourself' is a big diffentiator. That said - my scepticism is over the price tag of something that has yet to be proven. CEO's get it in their heads all the time that they think they know what the market is doing, and they just snap something up for a lot of money without considering a lot of the details. I worked for 'Big Corp' that almost bought a Wifi music player - literally nobody on the team thought to actually try the music player. And why would they? Actually using the product isn't anyone's job! It looked good on paper but it was a terrible product.
  - nordsieck 6y ago
    > You could say the same for Peleton, but lo and behold, people truly love it. I think there's real difference, though. Peleton is a true integrated solution, where the bike and screen are synchronized to the workout program. Most people already have a tv in their living room. I just don't see that there's much difference between Mirror and that. Sure - there's some opportunity for 2 way communication, but that's never going to be the way most interaction is going to happen. There's plenty of personal trainers all over the place for people who want that sort of thing, and most people find a true in-person experience much more fulfilling.
- arduinomancer 6y ago
  I can see a bike or a treadmill having a lot of value for a similar price but here you pay $1495 and you're still just doing everything yourself.
- tqi 6y ago
  Sure, and instead of Dropbox I could get an FTP account, mount it locally with curlftpfs, and then use SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem [1]. :-D All kidding aside, I think there is value in convenience. Whether or not that value is >= $1500 + $40/mo is a personal question (not saying that such a person exists in any meaningful quantity). I'm not really interested in this product either, but I'm also sure there are a lot of things I spend money on that others would find incomprehensible. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
  - kortilla 6y ago
    Is that really an apt comparison? My elderly mother pulls up youtube videos on the smart tv every day.
- tootie 6y ago
  Is there any tech teardown of Mirror anywhere? Does it run Android? Has sensors or anything? Can I watch large-format Quibi on it?
ebg13 6y ago
> Mirror sells you the equivalent of a beautiful, giant iPad that hangs on your wall for $1,495. Then, if you pay a $39 monthly subscription, you can use a mobile app to turn the Mirror into a fitness class. Ok, so...what if you _don't_ pay a $39/month subscription fee? Does this $1850[0] mirror do anything standalone? I think the answer is either no or yes but not much, but I can't tell. [0] - Buying the $1500 mirror requires you to also buy the $100 "starter pack" and shipping is nominally another $250 without the promotion. Though for all I know the promotion is just always happening.
vikramkr 6y ago
It's a call option on increased home gyms that use mirror. I don't think the correlation between increased home gyms and increased use of mirror is as strong as the article suggests because the driving force behind increased home gym use today is also driving a recession that might be enough to influence consumer behavior towards purchasing items for a home gym based on a value per dollar analysis. I don't know if an approximately $1500 + $500/yr magic mirror that could probably be replicated with a camera, a sensor, a small chip, and your existing TV fits well with that kind of purchase decision making.
noelwelsh 6y ago
I can see this being a good business, for the reasons described in the article. What I don't like about the fitness industry is the concept they are all implicitly selling that you need to go through an expensive intermediary to access your body. If you want community and pre-crafted workouts, you could drop $20 month on Parkour Visions[1] for example, and help support a real community of people instead of some mega-corp. If you just want to workout at home you could drop the $1500 entry price for Mirror on a fantastic home setup. Or you could drop $50 on some gymnastic rings and head to /r/bodyweightfitness Or you could join a local club doing whatever floats your boat. [1]: https://parkourvisions.org/online-classes-1 https://parkourvisions.org/online-classes-1 Their online stuff is fairly good for what it is, and getting better. Their in person stuff is excellent and if you're in Seattle you should check it out once the pandemic is over.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  > Or you could drop $50 on some gymnastic rings and head to /r/bodyweightfitness I wish more people thought this way. I've seen a lot of little used home gyms over the years (weights, treadmills, stationary bike, etc.). All you really need is your body and a way to move it to get in really good shape, unless strength (weight set) is specifically your goal. I have a TRX suspension trainer (more expensive than the rings) from 12 years ago, I got it on the recommendation of my roommate (it works well if you don't have a reliable place to mount rings, like when living in an apartment). I still use it, it's 8' from my current position. Between that, a yoga mat, and running shoes I'm pretty much set. Spend some money on a personal trainer to work on your form and routine, and you're done other than making it a routine.
  - danenania 6y ago
    Just to push back a little on one minor point: even if your goal is specifically strength, until you're quite far along you can get most of your muscle groups just as strong with bodyweight exercises as you can with weights. Resistance is resistance. By the time you get to the point where you need weights to keep progressing, you'll be really strong. Bodyweight training also improves muscular coordination, balance, and flexibility as well, which all have major benefits. I highly recommend it for beginners--you don't even need to buy rings or a bar necessarily if you can find a good tree branch.
Reedx 6y ago
> Instead of looking at it that way, consider a different frame. Both companies target the same customer: affluent millennials who like to workout and stare at themselves in a mirror. > Kidding aside... Are they kidding though? I'd s/millennials/people, but otherwise I think there's some truth there. Since that kind of exercise instruction and motivation can be delivered via a TV or laptop.
- munk-a 6y ago
  I really hope so - if they aren't they're in for a pretty harsh shock. The "lulz millennials so self-centered" meme is there for a reason and the usage of social media plays a major role in a lot of people's lives, but I disagree that millennials just like to stare in the mirror all the time - it's more about social connection. For some people this is a positive sharing experience with friends and families, for others it's a competitive arena where popularity is measured - I don't care to judge and think the motivation is beside the point. The actual crux of the matter is that these interactions that people pursue is with a self-selected cohort and I don't see mirror as being effective and letting you do yoga with your friends. On the contrary it's closer to e-health, you're connecting to a professional for some advice, but unlike e-health I imagine either that professional will be concurrently servicing lots of clients or that compensation for that professional will be dirt poor since 39$/mo isn't nearly enough for a personal trainer - the first one near me that I could find on the web runs about 150/hr so some serious corners will be getting cut unless Mirror is only usable for like... fifteen minutes a month? Or well, given that price difference I wouldn't be surprised if this was essentially an extremely expensive version of buying a projector and throwing Yoga w/ Adriene up on a wall.
aczerepinski 6y ago
I hadn’t heard of Mirror prior to this acquisition but I’m a big Peloton fan. I used to do a lot of YouTube fitness videos but the Peloton classes are better. Full Netflix quality HD, no preroll commercials, constant stream of new workouts that I don’t have to search around for, etc. I assume Mirror offers something similar. If $40/month sounds expensive keep in mind many of us compare fitness expenses to the $300/month gym memberships we were paying for prior to Covid.
- WanderPanda 6y ago
  Whaat kind of gym membership would that be? Here in Germany, I paid 20€ (< $22) and felt it was too much. Some friends pay 15€ a month. $300 is just wow
  - winslow 6y ago
    Elite gyms specifically like Equinox charge $300/month. Yes they are nicer gyms with more/better amenities such as a spa (massage), juice bar, etc. IMO it's mostly a status thing.
    - parthdesai 6y ago
      I got a visitor pass for Equinox and honestly the gym itself was underwhelming. It was similar to good life here in Canada, the differentiator was the locker room, which indeed was luxurious. But I'm never paying $225/month for that gym.
      - novok 6y ago
        You go to an expensive gym so it's not as busy as the cheap gym. Even then that is not guaranteed. Sad reality of life in a dense city.
    - smabie 6y ago
      I feel like almost everyone that uses Equinox gets it free from their job. Which is precisely why the prices are so high. I got free Equinox with one of my previous jobs, but honestly, the gym wasn't that great. Maybe the luxury of the locations vary, though.
ericmcer 6y ago
Being in shape long term will only happen if you find some joy in a form of exercise. I just don't see these fad things Peloton, Mirror, etc. bringing people anything beyond short term novelty. I would be really interested to see how many people who bought Peloton bikes in 2014 still ride them 2-3X a week now.
- danaur 6y ago
  People who have done exercise would disagree, there are benefits from investing in exercise. I don't particularly like using a stair machine but I enjoy how I feel from using it and enjoy the benefits of being more fit.
- salimmadjd 6y ago
  I agree. Fitness is not something you just buy, it's a lifestyle. You really need to find a way to enjoy it and look forward to your fitness session.
  - tqi 6y ago
    From what I've seen, Peloton and other high end fitness businesses very much understand this (Soul Cycle being the most clear example).
- Klathmon 6y ago
  Don't discount the impact of gamification. My dumb monkey brain is a sucker for seeing numbers go up and getting awards, and comparing my improvement to friends and family. The only thing that's ever gotten me to stick with a workout routine is finding one that my smartwatch can completely track and show my progress using some algorithm that distills it down to a "score". It instantly turns something that I hated doing into something where I'm reading up on how to get better.
  - bosie 6y ago
    Which smartwatch gives you such a score? In your experience, how well does the score represent your actual progress?
xiaosun 6y ago
This is called an acquisition, not a call option.
- User23 6y ago
  Yeah this is obnoxious. I was hoping to be told about a deep out of the money contract I missed out on buying, not some yoga pants company's PR firm's drivel. This is one of the rare examples of a HN headline that is worse than the average Zerohedge one.
- MurMan 6y ago
  Options will never be widely understood because math is involved, lol.
napier 6y ago
The voice came from an oblong metal plaque like a dulled mirror which formed part of the surface of the right-hand wall. . . The instrument (the telescreen, it was called) could be dimmed, but there was no way of shutting it off completely. The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  When I first saw Mirror advertised this was my first thought.
- simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  You absolutely nailed the best possible quote about this.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. The relevant part of the mirror in the quote you're giving from 1984 is that it was compulsory. This product is optional. That means I think they're not really comparable. You can make anything sound dystopian if it were compulsory. When it's a tool people choose to use it can be empowering and help people achieve the goals they had before they chose the product. I'm not sure this is really an intelligent or meaningful criticism. I think it's just snark - something said for the sake of it that sounds witty but doesn't really stand up if you think about it.
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    A mirror showing some training videos may not sound much but we already live in this dystopian world: Google knows all my secrets, I rely on Amazon in so many ways, it's ever hard to comprehend. People have TVs and Alexas that do actively listen to their conversations,not always when they'd like to. We literally sleep walked into this whole thing already.
el_don_almighty 6y ago
DOA until someone opens up this platform for PORN.
- stevespang 6y ago
  Hahahahahahahah.
rboyd 6y ago
first thought: how did I not think of this? second thought: people have way too much money. check out the $20 mini bottle of glass cleaner you can buy on the accessories page https://www.mirror.co/accessories https://www.mirror.co/accessories
perardi 6y ago
Pure gut reaction based off my own "fitness journey", and my family's: these things will all make really lovely racks for drying that rug that you don't really want to put through the dryer because it would stress the motor. I kid…I don't kid. The mute treadmill. The silent exercise bike. All that unused exercise equipment, sitting in basements, forlorn. Everybody buys this stuff, assuming they are going to really get into it hard. And they won't. Most likely. Will a few people? Sure. Will the majority? Nah. I straight up don't kid: going to the gym is (was) somewhat akin to going to church for me. (Still not open in Toronto yet.) You can worship or work out at home, but there's something I just can't quantify or articulate about having a space to go to that is NOT your home where you push yourself physically, and are not distracted by trying to find something on Netflix, or the dog getting in the way of kettlebell swings. So I'm skeptical. If I were a shorting man, I'd short these companies, because eventually these gadgets will go the way of all those Bowflex past: extremely expensive dust magnets. (Or perhaps I'm a freak; I have worked remotely for 5 years, and am highly highly productive. Perhaps this is all a quirk of my psychology.)
- azinman2 6y ago
  Fitness is on the rise generally (or at least pre-covid), and the trend is away from gyms. It’s Barry‘s bootcamp, yoga classes, Pilates, spin, etc etc. In a covid world, the pelotons and mirrors make a lot of sense. The question is will it stick afterwards.
  - perardi 6y ago
    I will grant you there was a diversification in "wellness" fitness options. But I think my point still stands with yoga et al: you were still going somewhere else. I'm just quite biased people will end up working out at home. (I actually suspect the boutique fitness stuff may come out of this better than big ol' boxes full of treadmills like Planet Fitness. It's easier to social distance and sanitized with defined class times and appointment. One of the big chain gyms here is doing just that; you set a time to go for the gym, and then you get out so they can sanitize the equipment. Which is nice, but labor-intensive. I can't imagine $15/month warehouses full of weights maintaining that. https://www.goodlifefitness.com/goodlife-standard https://www.goodlifefitness.com/goodlife-standard)
xnx 6y ago
As exercise equipment: Meh. As large form-factor indoor advertising: Interesting. Some article pointed out that the mirror has some potential to be a useful form factor for information display alongside phone, laptop, tablet, watch, book reader, and Alexa/Google Home display.
- fastball 6y ago
  Seems like it could be lucrative if the person buying them was Google. Not really if its lululemon.
- processing 6y ago
  Screen flickers on: 10 second Ad of Conor McGregor taking up the full mirror inviting you to take part in his 30 day fitness program - just say "Doubt me now" to begin. Your account is instantly charged $9.99 by Mirror. Could of been a great purchase by Google - matching your Youtube video viewing with celeb/fitness instructors.
cosmodisk 6y ago
"Mirror sells you the equivalent of a beautiful, giant iPad that hangs on your wall for $1,495. Then, if you pay a $39 monthly subscription, you can use a mobile app to turn the Mirror into a fitness class". Hold on a second. i do have this 50" thing in my living room. It shows all sorts of videos, even exercises some people do.. Emm.Oh,yes, it's call TV! This is like Paleton's cousin.
mdlm 6y ago
The article misses the most obvious reason: insurance/diversification. If people no longer go to gyms, they don't need to buy lulu.
- mikeg8 6y ago
  A lot of people buy Lululemon for the style/comfort/status... not to actually sweat in.
shanecleveland 6y ago
I was getting up at 5am and going to the gym near my home at least three times each week for more than a year before the virus closed the gym. We have some basic equipment at home (exercise bands, jump ropes, etc.) and plenty of space. Exercising at home started out OK, but I have dwindled off to next to nothing. I greatly look forward to returning to the gym when it is safe to do so. I can see how a more extensive piece of equipment could lead to more consistency, but I am not willing to spend the money to find out. Companies that will rely largely on subscription services would need to get creative to keep me on board.
- delfinom 6y ago
  Alot of what makes physical gyms work are just that, they are physical spaces that (a) you at minimum to traveling there out of routine (b) you just spent that time getting there, better work out instead of getting back on that tempting couch or bed 2 miles back at home ;) I've only ever seen working out at home long term for very disciplined people and it's not large group either.
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    Well also, critically, variety of exercise. I have a dip station and a bench and some dumbbells. You can get maybe 30-40 exercises out of that and bodyweight exercises. It gets old quick. I'd love to do cable stuff or step machine, etc.
    - com2kid 6y ago
      For me it is seeing the results. I'll happily do the same 6 motions for months if I keep seeing improvement. IMHO learning proper motion takes so long that after working out constantly for 8 years, I don't think I'm confident that I know 40 different strength training motions to a sufficient degree. Heck I was benching for a year before I got /good/ at it. (This was before the plethora of YT fitness videos, it is much easier to learn now!)
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    As someone who's averaged 5 days a week in exercise for the past 13 years now, even I worry about losing discipline if I switched from a commercial gym to a home gym. The commute (which has always been a short walk, jog or cycle for me) has curiously always become part of the routine. It'd be interesting to see relative drop-out rates for home-gym-goers vs commercial-gym-goers. I suspect the former is far higher. It's probably not as important from a commercial perspective though. A sale's a sale, no matter if the equipment never gets used.
grumple 6y ago
There’s a lot of focus on price. $1500 isn’t terribly much if you’re building a home gym. A lower-end squat rack, bench, barbell, and weights set you back about that much. Another $500 for high end adjustable dumbbells. Some other accessories to round it out as well. $1500 for an affluent class enthusiast? Not too bad, and I’d expect the price to come down over time. I’m more curious as to what this offers over watching a YouTube exercise class.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  > There’s a lot of focus on price. $1500 isn’t terribly much if you’re building a home gym. A lower-end squat rack, bench, barbell, and weights set you back about that much. Another $500 for high end adjustable dumbbells True, but you'll own that equipment forever, and it holds its resale value pretty well. As far as I can see, the Mirror hardware is useless without the monthly $40 subscription. There's always a risk with something like this that the company goes bankrupt, leaving you with an expensive wall-mounted TV that plays nothing but a black screen. I'm also guessing it's mainly seasoned gym-rats building $1500 home gyms, and they all know what they're doing. Mirror is presumably targeting the larger/more clueless segment, who may be more price sensitive (though I suppose Peloton would prove otherwise).
bob1029 6y ago
I don't understand the need for all of this obfuscation/gamification around the act of actually performing physical exercise. What works for me regarding on-going daily exercise is rowing while listening to a podcast about something really deep (JRE, The Portal, etc.). It takes me exactly 60 seconds to get my shoes on, queue up a podcast and start into the rowing session. Anything longer than this would probably demotivate me to the point of not exercising regularly. I strongly suspect the reason a lot of this fancy exercise gear is never used consistently is because there is always some UX annoyance that gets in your way - forgot safety key somewhere, need to update your treadmill software, have to review user manual, etc. In this attention deficit society, anything beyond 60 seconds might as well be tomorrow. You have to eliminate barriers to fitness, not create new ones. A Concept 2 Model D rower can operate without electricity or internet. Its user interface is completely optional (assuming you already have the damper set appropriately). The mode of exercise is intuitive and easy to learn. These facts make it one of the most valuable pieces of exercise equipment that one can own. All you need is a can of 3-in-1 oil and you can make it last for an eternity. The only things you have to think about are your form and how much you feel like pushing your metabolic pathways. Everything else is optional. This is the best way to monotonically improve ones fitness. Consistency and ease of use. Distracting screens and wildly variable exercise regimes built upon social networking and gamification are moving entirely in the wrong direction.
- skizm 6y ago
  Too loud for apartments unfortunately. I've tried a few exercise machines (bikes, rowers, and air bikes), but Peloton is pretty much the only thing quiet enough for an apartment. I wish I could have a rower and assault bike, but my neighbors would kill me, and I wouldn't blame them.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Assuming you have enough sound insulation to watch TV at normal levels, just put some foam pads under exercise equipment and it’s fine in most apartments. At the extreme end barbells are completely silent.
rosywoozlechan 6y ago
People who are into fitness don't need apps to track their fitness. Their fitness routine has nothing to do with technology and they get questionable value out of something they could do much better with a notebook and a spreadsheet. Lay people who are not into being fit are the audience for all these ridiculous things that don't help them get or stay fit because what it takes to be strong and fit cannot be derived from apps. You have to know how to prioritize, fitness has to be in the top of that priority list, you have to have the skills to create and stick to a routine. You have to know how to manage your time, how to get enough sleep, how to eat, how to move your body - like how to hip hinge for example - what activity you enjoy, how to achieve goals. A fitness app isn't going to do any of these things for you. These things are ridiculous. As a powerlifter I'm trying to imagine what intelligent doo-dad they'd try stick with us, and the most interesting things I've seen are the bar velocity tools, but unless you're strong enough to compete, I doubt you give a shit. I don't think barbell sports are a billion dollar investment market though for a gadget.
- hn_check 6y ago
  "People who are into fitness don't need apps to track their fitness." Fitness apps are very common among "people who are into fitness". In lifting, running, cycling, and other realms. Your No True Scotsman claim doesn't mesh with reality. I lift three times a week, and have for years. I use and very much enjoy Fitbod. It tracks my activities in a way that would be a giant pain otherwise...why would I use a notebook and a spreadsheet when there are tools perfectly suited?
  - 2muchcoffeeman 6y ago
    Because pen and paper works and you don’t have to be paranoid about where your phone is in relation to your plates. Never know when someone will fail a lift.
- snazz 6y ago
  I don’t disagree with the premise of your comment, but some active people do find technology useful. Lots of my runner friends find their Apple Watches extremely useful. As a cyclist, Strava provides motivation (primarily peer pressure through the social network aspect) and useful statistics. It sounds like you’re mostly thinking of strength training, which is one of the areas of fitness that is less well-served by fancy technology.
joering2 6y ago
With Covid around I was soo close to pulling the trigger... until friendly sales person admitted once you stop paying monthly membership, the mirror goes kaput. No call home at $40 per month, no exercise. So I'm gonna pay $4,000 upfront and then be stuck with at at $40 per month... or pay $39 for LaFitness and have access to all classes, all equipment, play basketball, use swimming pool, jacuzzi, etc. These guys are just taking advantage of pandemic. Once its done people will go out. Exercising at home is never the same as going out and socializing around at the gym outlet.
- phonon 6y ago
  Resale value?
throwaway713 6y ago
Gamification of exercise does not work currently and probably never will. No matter how you dress it up, it’s still exercise and still requires physical exertion, and there seems to be people who can do it and those who can’t.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  I'd argue that exercise has been gamified for longer than almost anything else in the form of sports. Millions of people find it much easier to motivate themselves to exercise when competing for points in a game of football, tennis, or whatever sport it may be.
- Sodman 6y ago
  I know multiple people who've more than 10x'd their number of spin classes per month after switching from a "dumb" spin bike to a Peloton who would disagree with you. Notifications like "You're 1 ride away from hitting a 5 day streak!" or "Your friend X is working out right now" really drive people to work out more frequently than they would otherwise. Seeing their effort levels compared to both strangers and friends on a real-time leaderboard makes people put in more effort than they would otherwise. Between the two, gamification can have quite a large impact on how much exercise someones does.
stevespang 6y ago
. . . "affluent millennials who like to workout and stare at themselves in a mirror."
sickcodebruh 6y ago
Lululemon are getting in on what is sure to be a crowded field. Mirror is just one of a few products that try to take the old Home Workout Video into the iPhone era. Some of the others that I’m aware of: Echelon Reflect, https://echelonfit.com/products/reflect-small https://echelonfit.com/products/reflect-small. This one is interesting cause Echelon are a large, established company, though it seems like their position might be lower cost versions of other popular fitness products. They also have a Peloton competitor. FORME Life, https://formelife.com/ https://formelife.com/. Similar to Mirror but also has a resistance component via cables and various attachments. They’re betting on the use of AI and virtual trainers will differentiate them. I think they’re the newest product, I’m not even sure their commercial systems have launched. Tonal, https://www.tonal.com/ https://www.tonal.com/. Similar to FORME but their focus is mostly on the resistance/strength training side of things. They were, as far as I know, the first of these to launch and they’re still the most interesting to me because the concept is so novel, the tech is cool, and their software looks really nice. Think “Peloton for strength training,” as far as I can tell. I’m sure there are more launched and on the way.
- jamesmcintyre 6y ago
  I've had a Tonal for about a month and it's a super impressive product in many ways. From someone who love great product design: - Very well-designed, distraction-free, non-buggy, snappy UI - For being a 1st gen product it seems SO well put-together, everything feels very solid- especially considering what kind of weight and force is being applied at times. - For being early on in the software lifecycle it already has Apple Watch heart rate integration via a Tonal Watch app as well as allows you to turn the weight on/off via the watch Which brings me to what I think really sets Tonal apart.. I was a very early iPhone adopter and I vividly remember showing people the phone and what really got them hooked/interested was: pinch-to-zoom and the "rubber-banding" inertial scrolling. Both interactions of which demonstrated beautifully what a no-physical button, multi-touch slab of glass could do that nothing before it came close to... and most importantly, it felt a little like magic. With Tonal it is a very weird feeling to "turn on" the weight. It's like you hit a button (built into the handles/bar/screen or your watch) and boom it's full-force to whatever weight you set with zero sound/noise.. it's very impressive. I thought maybe this was just something that struck me but I've had numerous friends who are much more experienced with weight lifting try it out and they are so surprised and impressed. Not trying to sell people on Tonal just saying that after seeing people's reactions to it I can totally see it being a viral type product that sells high-price to early adopters then lowers entry-level price as economies of scale allow it (then introduces new subscriptions, accessories, upgrades, better models to keep high margins for customers who can afford it).
crazygringo 6y ago
Most of the comments here are dissing Mirror as a product. And look, it's clearly not for most HN'ers who would prefer to exercise in nature, with their own weights, whatever. But there's a huge segment of people who find exercise really difficult if it's not a group class with a social aspect, if it's not an external schedule they commit to, who don't have the time to commute to a gym, and who can afford Mirror (and afford Lululemon). For these people it's a truly amazing product. And this acquisition is absolutely fascinating -- basically the same customer base, Mirrors get put in every Lululemon store, and Lululemon has a screen they control in what will ultimately be millions of homes. As long as they don't screw this up, this could be huge -- vertically-integrated affluent fitness for the twenty-first century.
Medicalidiot 6y ago
Let me build some credibility here: I have been working out for roughly a decade, have gained over 70lbs, and was ranked in the advanced category (set by ExRx standards) of dead lift, squat, and bench. Now, my suspicion is that the target demographic for this "works out" for social benefits, not for actually making fitness progress. I say this because someone who takes fitness seriously would never drop $1500 on an accessory that a pen and journal wouldn't be more than capable for. For that kind of money a home gym is more than accessible. Even a few kettlebells for even 1/4th of that would get someone into phenomenal shape. For a significant amount of my fitness career I did yoga at a local studio and met many of the target demographic. Many wanted a way to stay in shape while also having a social aspect. This abrogates the social aspect while having a sub par fitness experience. I can only think of a demographic that doesn't understand fitness at all, has significant money, and doesn't want the social aspects of a group fitness class; this demographic is probably niche.
PaulHoule 6y ago
Is this Juicero 2.0?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ryanmarsh 6y ago
How many people ITT dissing the product are in the target market? We're a Peloton and Hydrow family. We have friends with the mirror thing. These are prestige items for humble brags and typical keeping-up-with-the-joneses for relatively vain (as opposed to health conscious) upper-middle class to wealthy suburbanites. If you want to understand the market, lurk on the Peloton Mom Facebook groups. It won't take long. Edit: anyone interested in purchasing these products should know, the Peloton is a barely mediocre spin bike attached to an incredible digital experience. It's a blast to use. The Hydrow is a top notch erg attached to an abysmal digital experience, it sucks unless you use it without the screen. I haven't used the mirror thing but my wife's friends that have it don't like it.
eaandkw 6y ago
I think Winston Smith (1984) would disagree with having a "fitness" mirror in the home.
hristov 6y ago
I really hate how every company is trying to become a subscription company nowadays. Currently I have several devices constantly nagging me to sign up for some subscription. It is very annoying. And I certainly do not look forward to a future where I will have to pay a monthly fee for every object in my house.
- bmitc 6y ago
  In my opinion, this is capitalism at work in its soul-crushing reality, which optimizes growth and profit at all costs. Subscription-based products and services simply make companies much, much more money, very often with a worse user experience. I loathe today's subscription-based and constant update world, where nearly everything you use is sliding around underneath you as it changes and you pay it a monthly fee.
  - maerF0x0 6y ago
    > which optimizes growth and profit at all costs It only does so with our (average) consent. If more people refused to buy these things, and were willing to invest in non-subscription model then we'd have those options too. A major problem is people wanted SaaS like free upgrades and maintenance for life at a pricepoint that hasnt risen in 30 years. I remember buying video game cartridges for $60 in 1990 ($120 in today's dollars). No updates, no support, no cloud servers to keep running. Now people balk at paying $60 dollars for a MMO game, expect constant updates and the server should "not have a subscription fee". It's been a race to the bottom along with our collective experiences.
ConcernedCoder 6y ago
I'm imagining a mirror that can display you in different outfits? sound like a winner to me... a new way to shop.
mr_tristan 6y ago
I just remember: at the same time the fitness industry has grown in the United States, there is also an obesity epidemic. And I really don't think the people who are really into fitness are the ones spending the majority of the money. It really seems like it's the less intense, "average joe" folk where the green is at. I recall how a lot of "globo gyms" make tons of money at $10-40 per month, and why a boutique gym struggles at $200 - the globo gym capitalizes on people basically buying a membership, and basically not sticking with it, but... you know, not quitting just out of guilt. And it sure seems like Peloton established that the $39/month price point can work. If the Coronavirus problems extend into 2021 (very likely), I bet this purchase is going to be real amazing, since there will be a grip of Average Joes who will probably fork up the big purchase for Christmas to start up classes as a New Year's resolution, and then just stick with monthly classes "just because"
piccogabriele 6y ago
Good to see that there is interest in this topic. We recently launched www.virtualgym.run (Web-RTC peer to peer training platform), but we are struggling to reach visibility. Does someone have any suggestion to achieve an impressive growth like this startup?

150 points by dshipper 6y ago

layoutIfNeeded 6y ago

> a beautiful, giant iPad that hangs on your wall So... a Tv?

dwighttk 6y ago
yeah, but vertical! And a built-in camera?
- layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
  Most smart TVs have built-in cameras nowadays (unfortunately).

klipt 6y ago

> Mirror sells you the equivalent of a beautiful, giant iPad that hangs on your wall for $1,495. Then, if you pay a $39 monthly subscription, you can use a mobile app to turn the Mirror into a fitness class. Both on-demand and live classes are available for everything from yoga to boxing. Or you can just watch fitness classes on YouTube for free? Maybe I just don't have enough unwanted money to see the appeal of this.

jariel 6y ago
You could say the same for Peleton, but lo and behold, people truly love it. The totality of the experience matters, we know that by now. The sum of all the differences is a big thing. Maybe literally 'seeing yourself' is a big diffentiator. That said - my scepticism is over the price tag of something that has yet to be proven. CEO's get it in their heads all the time that they think they know what the market is doing, and they just snap something up for a lot of money without considering a lot of the details. I worked for 'Big Corp' that almost bought a Wifi music player - literally nobody on the team thought to actually try the music player. And why would they? Actually using the product isn't anyone's job! It looked good on paper but it was a terrible product.
- nordsieck 6y ago
  > You could say the same for Peleton, but lo and behold, people truly love it. I think there's real difference, though. Peleton is a true integrated solution, where the bike and screen are synchronized to the workout program. Most people already have a tv in their living room. I just don't see that there's much difference between Mirror and that. Sure - there's some opportunity for 2 way communication, but that's never going to be the way most interaction is going to happen. There's plenty of personal trainers all over the place for people who want that sort of thing, and most people find a true in-person experience much more fulfilling.
arduinomancer 6y ago
I can see a bike or a treadmill having a lot of value for a similar price but here you pay $1495 and you're still just doing everything yourself.
tqi 6y ago
Sure, and instead of Dropbox I could get an FTP account, mount it locally with curlftpfs, and then use SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem [1]. :-D All kidding aside, I think there is value in convenience. Whether or not that value is >= $1500 + $40/mo is a personal question (not saying that such a person exists in any meaningful quantity). I'm not really interested in this product either, but I'm also sure there are a lot of things I spend money on that others would find incomprehensible. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
- kortilla 6y ago
  Is that really an apt comparison? My elderly mother pulls up youtube videos on the smart tv every day.
tootie 6y ago
Is there any tech teardown of Mirror anywhere? Does it run Android? Has sensors or anything? Can I watch large-format Quibi on it?

ebg13 6y ago

> Mirror sells you the equivalent of a beautiful, giant iPad that hangs on your wall for $1,495. Then, if you pay a $39 monthly subscription, you can use a mobile app to turn the Mirror into a fitness class. Ok, so...what if you _don't_ pay a $39/month subscription fee? Does this $1850[0] mirror do anything standalone? I think the answer is either no or yes but not much, but I can't tell. [0] - Buying the $1500 mirror requires you to also buy the $100 "starter pack" and shipping is nominally another $250 without the promotion. Though for all I know the promotion is just always happening.

vikramkr 6y ago

It's a call option on increased home gyms that use mirror. I don't think the correlation between increased home gyms and increased use of mirror is as strong as the article suggests because the driving force behind increased home gym use today is also driving a recession that might be enough to influence consumer behavior towards purchasing items for a home gym based on a value per dollar analysis. I don't know if an approximately $1500 + $500/yr magic mirror that could probably be replicated with a camera, a sensor, a small chip, and your existing TV fits well with that kind of purchase decision making.

noelwelsh 6y ago

I can see this being a good business, for the reasons described in the article. What I don't like about the fitness industry is the concept they are all implicitly selling that you need to go through an expensive intermediary to access your body. If you want community and pre-crafted workouts, you could drop $20 month on Parkour Visions[1] for example, and help support a real community of people instead of some mega-corp. If you just want to workout at home you could drop the $1500 entry price for Mirror on a fantastic home setup. Or you could drop $50 on some gymnastic rings and head to /r/bodyweightfitness Or you could join a local club doing whatever floats your boat. [1]: https://parkourvisions.org/online-classes-1 https://parkourvisions.org/online-classes-1 Their online stuff is fairly good for what it is, and getting better. Their in person stuff is excellent and if you're in Seattle you should check it out once the pandemic is over.

Jtsummers 6y ago
> Or you could drop $50 on some gymnastic rings and head to /r/bodyweightfitness I wish more people thought this way. I've seen a lot of little used home gyms over the years (weights, treadmills, stationary bike, etc.). All you really need is your body and a way to move it to get in really good shape, unless strength (weight set) is specifically your goal. I have a TRX suspension trainer (more expensive than the rings) from 12 years ago, I got it on the recommendation of my roommate (it works well if you don't have a reliable place to mount rings, like when living in an apartment). I still use it, it's 8' from my current position. Between that, a yoga mat, and running shoes I'm pretty much set. Spend some money on a personal trainer to work on your form and routine, and you're done other than making it a routine.
- danenania 6y ago
  Just to push back a little on one minor point: even if your goal is specifically strength, until you're quite far along you can get most of your muscle groups just as strong with bodyweight exercises as you can with weights. Resistance is resistance. By the time you get to the point where you need weights to keep progressing, you'll be really strong. Bodyweight training also improves muscular coordination, balance, and flexibility as well, which all have major benefits. I highly recommend it for beginners--you don't even need to buy rings or a bar necessarily if you can find a good tree branch.

Reedx 6y ago

> Instead of looking at it that way, consider a different frame. Both companies target the same customer: affluent millennials who like to workout and stare at themselves in a mirror. > Kidding aside... Are they kidding though? I'd s/millennials/people, but otherwise I think there's some truth there. Since that kind of exercise instruction and motivation can be delivered via a TV or laptop.

munk-a 6y ago
I really hope so - if they aren't they're in for a pretty harsh shock. The "lulz millennials so self-centered" meme is there for a reason and the usage of social media plays a major role in a lot of people's lives, but I disagree that millennials just like to stare in the mirror all the time - it's more about social connection. For some people this is a positive sharing experience with friends and families, for others it's a competitive arena where popularity is measured - I don't care to judge and think the motivation is beside the point. The actual crux of the matter is that these interactions that people pursue is with a self-selected cohort and I don't see mirror as being effective and letting you do yoga with your friends. On the contrary it's closer to e-health, you're connecting to a professional for some advice, but unlike e-health I imagine either that professional will be concurrently servicing lots of clients or that compensation for that professional will be dirt poor since 39$/mo isn't nearly enough for a personal trainer - the first one near me that I could find on the web runs about 150/hr so some serious corners will be getting cut unless Mirror is only usable for like... fifteen minutes a month? Or well, given that price difference I wouldn't be surprised if this was essentially an extremely expensive version of buying a projector and throwing Yoga w/ Adriene up on a wall.

aczerepinski 6y ago

I hadn’t heard of Mirror prior to this acquisition but I’m a big Peloton fan. I used to do a lot of YouTube fitness videos but the Peloton classes are better. Full Netflix quality HD, no preroll commercials, constant stream of new workouts that I don’t have to search around for, etc. I assume Mirror offers something similar. If $40/month sounds expensive keep in mind many of us compare fitness expenses to the $300/month gym memberships we were paying for prior to Covid.

WanderPanda 6y ago
Whaat kind of gym membership would that be? Here in Germany, I paid 20€ (< $22) and felt it was too much. Some friends pay 15€ a month. $300 is just wow
- winslow 6y ago
  Elite gyms specifically like Equinox charge $300/month. Yes they are nicer gyms with more/better amenities such as a spa (massage), juice bar, etc. IMO it's mostly a status thing.
  - parthdesai 6y ago
    I got a visitor pass for Equinox and honestly the gym itself was underwhelming. It was similar to good life here in Canada, the differentiator was the locker room, which indeed was luxurious. But I'm never paying $225/month for that gym.
    - novok 6y ago
      You go to an expensive gym so it's not as busy as the cheap gym. Even then that is not guaranteed. Sad reality of life in a dense city.
  - smabie 6y ago
    I feel like almost everyone that uses Equinox gets it free from their job. Which is precisely why the prices are so high. I got free Equinox with one of my previous jobs, but honestly, the gym wasn't that great. Maybe the luxury of the locations vary, though.

ericmcer 6y ago

Being in shape long term will only happen if you find some joy in a form of exercise. I just don't see these fad things Peloton, Mirror, etc. bringing people anything beyond short term novelty. I would be really interested to see how many people who bought Peloton bikes in 2014 still ride them 2-3X a week now.

danaur 6y ago
People who have done exercise would disagree, there are benefits from investing in exercise. I don't particularly like using a stair machine but I enjoy how I feel from using it and enjoy the benefits of being more fit.
salimmadjd 6y ago
I agree. Fitness is not something you just buy, it's a lifestyle. You really need to find a way to enjoy it and look forward to your fitness session.
- tqi 6y ago
  From what I've seen, Peloton and other high end fitness businesses very much understand this (Soul Cycle being the most clear example).
Klathmon 6y ago
Don't discount the impact of gamification. My dumb monkey brain is a sucker for seeing numbers go up and getting awards, and comparing my improvement to friends and family. The only thing that's ever gotten me to stick with a workout routine is finding one that my smartwatch can completely track and show my progress using some algorithm that distills it down to a "score". It instantly turns something that I hated doing into something where I'm reading up on how to get better.
- bosie 6y ago
  Which smartwatch gives you such a score? In your experience, how well does the score represent your actual progress?

xiaosun 6y ago

This is called an acquisition, not a call option.

User23 6y ago
Yeah this is obnoxious. I was hoping to be told about a deep out of the money contract I missed out on buying, not some yoga pants company's PR firm's drivel. This is one of the rare examples of a HN headline that is worse than the average Zerohedge one.
MurMan 6y ago
Options will never be widely understood because math is involved, lol.

napier 6y ago

The voice came from an oblong metal plaque like a dulled mirror which formed part of the surface of the right-hand wall. . . The instrument (the telescreen, it was called) could be dimmed, but there was no way of shutting it off completely. The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.

Jtsummers 6y ago
When I first saw Mirror advertised this was my first thought.
simonebrunozzi 6y ago
You absolutely nailed the best possible quote about this.
chrisseaton 6y ago
I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. The relevant part of the mirror in the quote you're giving from 1984 is that it was compulsory. This product is optional. That means I think they're not really comparable. You can make anything sound dystopian if it were compulsory. When it's a tool people choose to use it can be empowering and help people achieve the goals they had before they chose the product. I'm not sure this is really an intelligent or meaningful criticism. I think it's just snark - something said for the sake of it that sounds witty but doesn't really stand up if you think about it.
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  A mirror showing some training videos may not sound much but we already live in this dystopian world: Google knows all my secrets, I rely on Amazon in so many ways, it's ever hard to comprehend. People have TVs and Alexas that do actively listen to their conversations,not always when they'd like to. We literally sleep walked into this whole thing already.

el_don_almighty 6y ago

DOA until someone opens up this platform for PORN.

stevespang 6y ago
Hahahahahahahah.

rboyd 6y ago

first thought: how did I not think of this? second thought: people have way too much money. check out the $20 mini bottle of glass cleaner you can buy on the accessories page https://www.mirror.co/accessories https://www.mirror.co/accessories

perardi 6y ago

Pure gut reaction based off my own "fitness journey", and my family's: these things will all make really lovely racks for drying that rug that you don't really want to put through the dryer because it would stress the motor. I kid…I don't kid. The mute treadmill. The silent exercise bike. All that unused exercise equipment, sitting in basements, forlorn. Everybody buys this stuff, assuming they are going to really get into it hard. And they won't. Most likely. Will a few people? Sure. Will the majority? Nah. I straight up don't kid: going to the gym is (was) somewhat akin to going to church for me. (Still not open in Toronto yet.) You can worship or work out at home, but there's something I just can't quantify or articulate about having a space to go to that is NOT your home where you push yourself physically, and are not distracted by trying to find something on Netflix, or the dog getting in the way of kettlebell swings. So I'm skeptical. If I were a shorting man, I'd short these companies, because eventually these gadgets will go the way of all those Bowflex past: extremely expensive dust magnets. (Or perhaps I'm a freak; I have worked remotely for 5 years, and am highly highly productive. Perhaps this is all a quirk of my psychology.)

azinman2 6y ago
Fitness is on the rise generally (or at least pre-covid), and the trend is away from gyms. It’s Barry‘s bootcamp, yoga classes, Pilates, spin, etc etc. In a covid world, the pelotons and mirrors make a lot of sense. The question is will it stick afterwards.
- perardi 6y ago
  I will grant you there was a diversification in "wellness" fitness options. But I think my point still stands with yoga et al: you were still going somewhere else. I'm just quite biased people will end up working out at home. (I actually suspect the boutique fitness stuff may come out of this better than big ol' boxes full of treadmills like Planet Fitness. It's easier to social distance and sanitized with defined class times and appointment. One of the big chain gyms here is doing just that; you set a time to go for the gym, and then you get out so they can sanitize the equipment. Which is nice, but labor-intensive. I can't imagine $15/month warehouses full of weights maintaining that. https://www.goodlifefitness.com/goodlife-standard https://www.goodlifefitness.com/goodlife-standard)

xnx 6y ago

As exercise equipment: Meh. As large form-factor indoor advertising: Interesting. Some article pointed out that the mirror has some potential to be a useful form factor for information display alongside phone, laptop, tablet, watch, book reader, and Alexa/Google Home display.

fastball 6y ago
Seems like it could be lucrative if the person buying them was Google. Not really if its lululemon.
processing 6y ago
Screen flickers on: 10 second Ad of Conor McGregor taking up the full mirror inviting you to take part in his 30 day fitness program - just say "Doubt me now" to begin. Your account is instantly charged $9.99 by Mirror. Could of been a great purchase by Google - matching your Youtube video viewing with celeb/fitness instructors.

cosmodisk 6y ago

"Mirror sells you the equivalent of a beautiful, giant iPad that hangs on your wall for $1,495. Then, if you pay a $39 monthly subscription, you can use a mobile app to turn the Mirror into a fitness class". Hold on a second. i do have this 50" thing in my living room. It shows all sorts of videos, even exercises some people do.. Emm.Oh,yes, it's call TV! This is like Paleton's cousin.

mdlm 6y ago

The article misses the most obvious reason: insurance/diversification. If people no longer go to gyms, they don't need to buy lulu.

mikeg8 6y ago
A lot of people buy Lululemon for the style/comfort/status... not to actually sweat in.

shanecleveland 6y ago

I was getting up at 5am and going to the gym near my home at least three times each week for more than a year before the virus closed the gym. We have some basic equipment at home (exercise bands, jump ropes, etc.) and plenty of space. Exercising at home started out OK, but I have dwindled off to next to nothing. I greatly look forward to returning to the gym when it is safe to do so. I can see how a more extensive piece of equipment could lead to more consistency, but I am not willing to spend the money to find out. Companies that will rely largely on subscription services would need to get creative to keep me on board.

delfinom 6y ago
Alot of what makes physical gyms work are just that, they are physical spaces that (a) you at minimum to traveling there out of routine (b) you just spent that time getting there, better work out instead of getting back on that tempting couch or bed 2 miles back at home ;) I've only ever seen working out at home long term for very disciplined people and it's not large group either.
- nkozyra 6y ago
  Well also, critically, variety of exercise. I have a dip station and a bench and some dumbbells. You can get maybe 30-40 exercises out of that and bodyweight exercises. It gets old quick. I'd love to do cable stuff or step machine, etc.
  - com2kid 6y ago
    For me it is seeing the results. I'll happily do the same 6 motions for months if I keep seeing improvement. IMHO learning proper motion takes so long that after working out constantly for 8 years, I don't think I'm confident that I know 40 different strength training motions to a sufficient degree. Heck I was benching for a year before I got /good/ at it. (This was before the plethora of YT fitness videos, it is much easier to learn now!)
- nmfisher 6y ago
  As someone who's averaged 5 days a week in exercise for the past 13 years now, even I worry about losing discipline if I switched from a commercial gym to a home gym. The commute (which has always been a short walk, jog or cycle for me) has curiously always become part of the routine. It'd be interesting to see relative drop-out rates for home-gym-goers vs commercial-gym-goers. I suspect the former is far higher. It's probably not as important from a commercial perspective though. A sale's a sale, no matter if the equipment never gets used.

grumple 6y ago

There’s a lot of focus on price. $1500 isn’t terribly much if you’re building a home gym. A lower-end squat rack, bench, barbell, and weights set you back about that much. Another $500 for high end adjustable dumbbells. Some other accessories to round it out as well. $1500 for an affluent class enthusiast? Not too bad, and I’d expect the price to come down over time. I’m more curious as to what this offers over watching a YouTube exercise class.

nmfisher 6y ago
> There’s a lot of focus on price. $1500 isn’t terribly much if you’re building a home gym. A lower-end squat rack, bench, barbell, and weights set you back about that much. Another $500 for high end adjustable dumbbells True, but you'll own that equipment forever, and it holds its resale value pretty well. As far as I can see, the Mirror hardware is useless without the monthly $40 subscription. There's always a risk with something like this that the company goes bankrupt, leaving you with an expensive wall-mounted TV that plays nothing but a black screen. I'm also guessing it's mainly seasoned gym-rats building $1500 home gyms, and they all know what they're doing. Mirror is presumably targeting the larger/more clueless segment, who may be more price sensitive (though I suppose Peloton would prove otherwise).

bob1029 6y ago

I don't understand the need for all of this obfuscation/gamification around the act of actually performing physical exercise. What works for me regarding on-going daily exercise is rowing while listening to a podcast about something really deep (JRE, The Portal, etc.). It takes me exactly 60 seconds to get my shoes on, queue up a podcast and start into the rowing session. Anything longer than this would probably demotivate me to the point of not exercising regularly. I strongly suspect the reason a lot of this fancy exercise gear is never used consistently is because there is always some UX annoyance that gets in your way - forgot safety key somewhere, need to update your treadmill software, have to review user manual, etc. In this attention deficit society, anything beyond 60 seconds might as well be tomorrow. You have to eliminate barriers to fitness, not create new ones. A Concept 2 Model D rower can operate without electricity or internet. Its user interface is completely optional (assuming you already have the damper set appropriately). The mode of exercise is intuitive and easy to learn. These facts make it one of the most valuable pieces of exercise equipment that one can own. All you need is a can of 3-in-1 oil and you can make it last for an eternity. The only things you have to think about are your form and how much you feel like pushing your metabolic pathways. Everything else is optional. This is the best way to monotonically improve ones fitness. Consistency and ease of use. Distracting screens and wildly variable exercise regimes built upon social networking and gamification are moving entirely in the wrong direction.

skizm 6y ago
Too loud for apartments unfortunately. I've tried a few exercise machines (bikes, rowers, and air bikes), but Peloton is pretty much the only thing quiet enough for an apartment. I wish I could have a rower and assault bike, but my neighbors would kill me, and I wouldn't blame them.
- Retric 6y ago
  Assuming you have enough sound insulation to watch TV at normal levels, just put some foam pads under exercise equipment and it’s fine in most apartments. At the extreme end barbells are completely silent.

rosywoozlechan 6y ago

People who are into fitness don't need apps to track their fitness. Their fitness routine has nothing to do with technology and they get questionable value out of something they could do much better with a notebook and a spreadsheet. Lay people who are not into being fit are the audience for all these ridiculous things that don't help them get or stay fit because what it takes to be strong and fit cannot be derived from apps. You have to know how to prioritize, fitness has to be in the top of that priority list, you have to have the skills to create and stick to a routine. You have to know how to manage your time, how to get enough sleep, how to eat, how to move your body - like how to hip hinge for example - what activity you enjoy, how to achieve goals. A fitness app isn't going to do any of these things for you. These things are ridiculous. As a powerlifter I'm trying to imagine what intelligent doo-dad they'd try stick with us, and the most interesting things I've seen are the bar velocity tools, but unless you're strong enough to compete, I doubt you give a shit. I don't think barbell sports are a billion dollar investment market though for a gadget.

hn_check 6y ago
"People who are into fitness don't need apps to track their fitness." Fitness apps are very common among "people who are into fitness". In lifting, running, cycling, and other realms. Your No True Scotsman claim doesn't mesh with reality. I lift three times a week, and have for years. I use and very much enjoy Fitbod. It tracks my activities in a way that would be a giant pain otherwise...why would I use a notebook and a spreadsheet when there are tools perfectly suited?
- 2muchcoffeeman 6y ago
  Because pen and paper works and you don’t have to be paranoid about where your phone is in relation to your plates. Never know when someone will fail a lift.
snazz 6y ago
I don’t disagree with the premise of your comment, but some active people do find technology useful. Lots of my runner friends find their Apple Watches extremely useful. As a cyclist, Strava provides motivation (primarily peer pressure through the social network aspect) and useful statistics. It sounds like you’re mostly thinking of strength training, which is one of the areas of fitness that is less well-served by fancy technology.

joering2 6y ago

With Covid around I was soo close to pulling the trigger... until friendly sales person admitted once you stop paying monthly membership, the mirror goes kaput. No call home at $40 per month, no exercise. So I'm gonna pay $4,000 upfront and then be stuck with at at $40 per month... or pay $39 for LaFitness and have access to all classes, all equipment, play basketball, use swimming pool, jacuzzi, etc. These guys are just taking advantage of pandemic. Once its done people will go out. Exercising at home is never the same as going out and socializing around at the gym outlet.

phonon 6y ago
Resale value?

throwaway713 6y ago

Gamification of exercise does not work currently and probably never will. No matter how you dress it up, it’s still exercise and still requires physical exertion, and there seems to be people who can do it and those who can’t.

nicoburns 6y ago
I'd argue that exercise has been gamified for longer than almost anything else in the form of sports. Millions of people find it much easier to motivate themselves to exercise when competing for points in a game of football, tennis, or whatever sport it may be.
Sodman 6y ago
I know multiple people who've more than 10x'd their number of spin classes per month after switching from a "dumb" spin bike to a Peloton who would disagree with you. Notifications like "You're 1 ride away from hitting a 5 day streak!" or "Your friend X is working out right now" really drive people to work out more frequently than they would otherwise. Seeing their effort levels compared to both strangers and friends on a real-time leaderboard makes people put in more effort than they would otherwise. Between the two, gamification can have quite a large impact on how much exercise someones does.

stevespang 6y ago

. . . "affluent millennials who like to workout and stare at themselves in a mirror."

sickcodebruh 6y ago

Lululemon are getting in on what is sure to be a crowded field. Mirror is just one of a few products that try to take the old Home Workout Video into the iPhone era. Some of the others that I’m aware of: Echelon Reflect, https://echelonfit.com/products/reflect-small https://echelonfit.com/products/reflect-small. This one is interesting cause Echelon are a large, established company, though it seems like their position might be lower cost versions of other popular fitness products. They also have a Peloton competitor. FORME Life, https://formelife.com/ https://formelife.com/. Similar to Mirror but also has a resistance component via cables and various attachments. They’re betting on the use of AI and virtual trainers will differentiate them. I think they’re the newest product, I’m not even sure their commercial systems have launched. Tonal, https://www.tonal.com/ https://www.tonal.com/. Similar to FORME but their focus is mostly on the resistance/strength training side of things. They were, as far as I know, the first of these to launch and they’re still the most interesting to me because the concept is so novel, the tech is cool, and their software looks really nice. Think “Peloton for strength training,” as far as I can tell. I’m sure there are more launched and on the way.

jamesmcintyre 6y ago
I've had a Tonal for about a month and it's a super impressive product in many ways. From someone who love great product design: - Very well-designed, distraction-free, non-buggy, snappy UI - For being a 1st gen product it seems SO well put-together, everything feels very solid- especially considering what kind of weight and force is being applied at times. - For being early on in the software lifecycle it already has Apple Watch heart rate integration via a Tonal Watch app as well as allows you to turn the weight on/off via the watch Which brings me to what I think really sets Tonal apart.. I was a very early iPhone adopter and I vividly remember showing people the phone and what really got them hooked/interested was: pinch-to-zoom and the "rubber-banding" inertial scrolling. Both interactions of which demonstrated beautifully what a no-physical button, multi-touch slab of glass could do that nothing before it came close to... and most importantly, it felt a little like magic. With Tonal it is a very weird feeling to "turn on" the weight. It's like you hit a button (built into the handles/bar/screen or your watch) and boom it's full-force to whatever weight you set with zero sound/noise.. it's very impressive. I thought maybe this was just something that struck me but I've had numerous friends who are much more experienced with weight lifting try it out and they are so surprised and impressed. Not trying to sell people on Tonal just saying that after seeing people's reactions to it I can totally see it being a viral type product that sells high-price to early adopters then lowers entry-level price as economies of scale allow it (then introduces new subscriptions, accessories, upgrades, better models to keep high margins for customers who can afford it).

crazygringo 6y ago

Most of the comments here are dissing Mirror as a product. And look, it's clearly not for most HN'ers who would prefer to exercise in nature, with their own weights, whatever. But there's a huge segment of people who find exercise really difficult if it's not a group class with a social aspect, if it's not an external schedule they commit to, who don't have the time to commute to a gym, and who can afford Mirror (and afford Lululemon). For these people it's a truly amazing product. And this acquisition is absolutely fascinating -- basically the same customer base, Mirrors get put in every Lululemon store, and Lululemon has a screen they control in what will ultimately be millions of homes. As long as they don't screw this up, this could be huge -- vertically-integrated affluent fitness for the twenty-first century.

Medicalidiot 6y ago

Let me build some credibility here: I have been working out for roughly a decade, have gained over 70lbs, and was ranked in the advanced category (set by ExRx standards) of dead lift, squat, and bench. Now, my suspicion is that the target demographic for this "works out" for social benefits, not for actually making fitness progress. I say this because someone who takes fitness seriously would never drop $1500 on an accessory that a pen and journal wouldn't be more than capable for. For that kind of money a home gym is more than accessible. Even a few kettlebells for even 1/4th of that would get someone into phenomenal shape. For a significant amount of my fitness career I did yoga at a local studio and met many of the target demographic. Many wanted a way to stay in shape while also having a social aspect. This abrogates the social aspect while having a sub par fitness experience. I can only think of a demographic that doesn't understand fitness at all, has significant money, and doesn't want the social aspects of a group fitness class; this demographic is probably niche.

PaulHoule 6y ago

Is this Juicero 2.0?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ryanmarsh 6y ago

How many people ITT dissing the product are in the target market? We're a Peloton and Hydrow family. We have friends with the mirror thing. These are prestige items for humble brags and typical keeping-up-with-the-joneses for relatively vain (as opposed to health conscious) upper-middle class to wealthy suburbanites. If you want to understand the market, lurk on the Peloton Mom Facebook groups. It won't take long. Edit: anyone interested in purchasing these products should know, the Peloton is a barely mediocre spin bike attached to an incredible digital experience. It's a blast to use. The Hydrow is a top notch erg attached to an abysmal digital experience, it sucks unless you use it without the screen. I haven't used the mirror thing but my wife's friends that have it don't like it.

eaandkw 6y ago

I think Winston Smith (1984) would disagree with having a "fitness" mirror in the home.

hristov 6y ago

I really hate how every company is trying to become a subscription company nowadays. Currently I have several devices constantly nagging me to sign up for some subscription. It is very annoying. And I certainly do not look forward to a future where I will have to pay a monthly fee for every object in my house.

bmitc 6y ago
In my opinion, this is capitalism at work in its soul-crushing reality, which optimizes growth and profit at all costs. Subscription-based products and services simply make companies much, much more money, very often with a worse user experience. I loathe today's subscription-based and constant update world, where nearly everything you use is sliding around underneath you as it changes and you pay it a monthly fee.
- maerF0x0 6y ago
  > which optimizes growth and profit at all costs It only does so with our (average) consent. If more people refused to buy these things, and were willing to invest in non-subscription model then we'd have those options too. A major problem is people wanted SaaS like free upgrades and maintenance for life at a pricepoint that hasnt risen in 30 years. I remember buying video game cartridges for $60 in 1990 ($120 in today's dollars). No updates, no support, no cloud servers to keep running. Now people balk at paying $60 dollars for a MMO game, expect constant updates and the server should "not have a subscription fee". It's been a race to the bottom along with our collective experiences.

ConcernedCoder 6y ago

I'm imagining a mirror that can display you in different outfits? sound like a winner to me... a new way to shop.

mr_tristan 6y ago

I just remember: at the same time the fitness industry has grown in the United States, there is also an obesity epidemic. And I really don't think the people who are really into fitness are the ones spending the majority of the money. It really seems like it's the less intense, "average joe" folk where the green is at. I recall how a lot of "globo gyms" make tons of money at $10-40 per month, and why a boutique gym struggles at $200 - the globo gym capitalizes on people basically buying a membership, and basically not sticking with it, but... you know, not quitting just out of guilt. And it sure seems like Peloton established that the $39/month price point can work. If the Coronavirus problems extend into 2021 (very likely), I bet this purchase is going to be real amazing, since there will be a grip of Average Joes who will probably fork up the big purchase for Christmas to start up classes as a New Year's resolution, and then just stick with monthly classes "just because"

piccogabriele 6y ago

Good to see that there is interest in this topic. We recently launched www.virtualgym.run (Web-RTC peer to peer training platform), but we are struggling to reach visibility. Does someone have any suggestion to achieve an impressive growth like this startup?