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I wrote about this here: https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/ https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/ Social media is effectively ampli

I wrote about this here: https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/ https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/ Social media is effectively amplifying the smallest segment of society. An extreme left and extreme right, neither of whom really represent the vast majority of people. Worse, I don’t think companies or representatives realize how few even a few thousand retweets really are... Further exasperating the issue is the fact we deplatform people with opposing opinions. Now Reddit is even removing people who upvote stories or comments differ from their ideology. It’s getting real scary. That’s why my post linked above is called “on committing suicide”. It’s a dual meaning, I think the country is murdering itself and I’m also risking my entire career to say so.

HeWhoLurksLate 6y ago
A comment on your blog post sums up quite well my opinion of your piece- >I cannot believe you wrote a web page that reads my mind and converts it into text! This is the most amazing technology I have ever seen. It literally scanned all my chaotic thoughts and emotions over the last couple of months and distilled them into a series of coherent, well written sentences that convey exactly what I wanted to say, but didn’t know how to say it. You are either the most amazing programmer in the world, or an excellent essayist. Either way, thank you. I agree. Thank you for that essay, I'll be sharing it with several of my friends.
willcipriano 6y ago
>Worse, I don’t think companies or representatives realize how few even a few thousand retweets really are... 1k retweets could mean as little as someone spent $30[0], think about that you could ruin someones life for $30 and you don't even have to get out of bed to do it. [0]https://www.redsocial.net/buy-twitter-retweets/ https://www.redsocial.net/buy-twitter-retweets/
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  I don't think people realise how manipulated social media is. There are so many marketing services that scan every comment posted on every social media to alert the marketing team when their product is mentioned so they can jump in and start shilling. I used to use one to scan for my FOSS project name so I could answer questions and help people but the scope for abuse here is huge.
aSplash0fDerp 6y ago
It may be a case of just talking louder than the other comments (amplifying as you say) Your last paragraph is a strategy I've labeled "tarpitting" (you want to avoid these environments or at least point them out). I rarely click social links, but the Seattle hit-and-run comments on Twitter shows the noise floor levels. https://mobile.twitter.com/ASeattleStoner/status/1279653208831344640 https://mobile.twitter.com/ASeattleStoner/status/12796532088... Everything about the link is NSFW, but it summarizes your comment very well.
AlexMax 6y ago
> Further exasperating the issue is the fact we deplatform people with opposing opinions. Now Reddit is even removing people who upvote stories or comments differ from their ideology. What are the opposing opinions and the differing ideologies that you're worried about being silenced?
- dcow 6y ago
  It actually doesn't matter. "Opposing opinions and differing ideologies" must be protected regardless of what they are. It's pointless to cherry-pick.
  - AlexMax 6y ago
    Actually it does matter, if we want to be honest about why we're even having this conversation. Deplatforming and banning doesn't happen because of some abstract whim, so defending it in abstract terms sans context seems like it's overlooking a large chunk of the conversation.
    - dcow 6y ago
      No. It doesn't. We're having this conversation because angry mobs are unjustly destroying peoples lives. If you think that's okay then we're at an impasse. Abstract freedom of expression is a prerequisite for preventing oppression by majority rule. It's fundamental to our core as citizens in the United States.
      - AlexMax 6y ago
        To be clear, are you saying that if I don't agree with preserving the abstract freedom of expression on private social spaces, I am pro angry mob destroying peoples lives?
        dcow 6y ago
        Not directly, of course. I am saying that the concession that we need to moderate "dirty" behavior is, in and of itself, the rhetoric that validates the mob behavior we're seeing. And there's a difference between dirty and illegal. We do not disagree that unlawful content can responsibly be remove by citizens from the internet. The extrajudicial removal of miscreant expression is what we're talking about.
gerdesj 6y ago
"Now Reddit is even removing people who upvote stories or comments differ from their ideology." Could you provide some examples please? Assertions are all very well. (BTW "the country" is not HN. I'm a Brit)
- ahelwer 6y ago
  https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/techwatch/corinne-weaver/2020/02/25/reddit-suspends-users-who-upvote-content-quarantined https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/techwatch/corinne-weaver/2...
  - rhizome 6y ago
    First of all, Newsbusters is crap. Secondly, that story does not say what you say it does. What Reddit is doing is actually warning people that they are interacting with the site in the manner of coordinated bots. Certainly you aren't suggesting they should just banhammer at first blush, isn't a warning a nicety? Whether or not these are botnet operators complaining that the site has developed defenses against them is a questoin for the reader, but the fact remains that something gets posted, something gets flagged, and if that happens to be coincidentally the only (or most of) the stuff you upvote, then the defenses start falling into place to your detriment. How would you deal with the problem as I've stated it (accounts that only upvote stuff that winds up getting removed)?
    - ahelwer 6y ago
      With all those words you typed you could have done a whole lot of googling to find a source befitting your standards. Reddit sends you warnings, several of them, before banning your account if you upvote things it doesn't like. I know because it happened to me.
      - rhizome 6y ago
        That's not a problem as I see it so I don't need a better source telling me it is a problem. And you know just as well as I do that it's not, "things it doesn't like."
manigandham 6y ago
This is exactly what's happening. Hyper-partisan extremist perspectives that are built up by a frenzy of social engagement turning people into blind attackers of whatever they deem "wrong". We just aren't built for this addiction to a constant global stimulus by faceless anonymous accounts sharing hot takes that can't be verified but elicit a deeply emotional reaction. We're losing our minds.
- api 6y ago
  There are many examples featuring extremists from all around the political landscape, but the one I find simultaneously the most fascinating and terrifying is the Qanon cult. Look into it a bit if you want to see just how deep the folie-a-deux social media rabbit hole goes. Someone should do a STTNG universe spinoff on the origin of the Borg, kind of like Caprica. "We are Borg. You will be pilled. Resistance is futile. #borg #assimilate #wwg1wga" "Borg" could start off as a fringe cult that goes viral, then someone invents direct neural connections (Neuralink?) and the members of the cult become a superintelligence and take over the whole society. They are the ones who become the first real collective intelligence because they live online and already have this cult identity that submerges the individual. Once the cult turned superintelligence takes over, it starts venturing out to "red pill" the entire universe. I mean what do you think is happening in all those cells on those ships? All the anons are meme-ing each other.
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    But if they had a collective-intelligence, whose purpose really is to assimilate all other intelligences (and ideas, and so consequently ideals) then one would hope an honest, good-faith battle for ideas would play out inside this collective-intelligence and they would see just how indefensible that incel/MRA/redpill rubbish is compared to other ideas grounded in more substance. More fundamentally: a lot of reactionary opinion and right-leaning politics are predicated on a lack of empathy for others: I detect (armchair diagnosis) a lot of behaviour attributable to being on autistic-spectrum amongst far-right activists on the internet: it’s easy to rail against proponents of equality and doing things for a greater-good when one can’t relate to them - or be physically incapable of relating to them - but neurotypical people can end up also being unable to relate to others online, and this isn’t anything new: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/my-life-aspergers/200811/is-the-internet-making-people-little-bit-autistic https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/my-life-aspergers/20... ...so if there really was a collective-intelligence comprised of the worst of reactionary right-wing internet users, then I would actively encourage them to harvest the brains of the Tumblr users they troll so much: that way they would assimilate empathy and finally understand for themselves how the rest of the world operates.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
scarface74 6y ago
The right elected someone who is on the extreme compared to more moderate candidates in 2016. The left nominated a moderate in 2016 and 2020. I can’t help but to conclude that the extreme right is the majority of the Republican Party. Sanders was rejected twice.
- moduspol 6y ago
  Donald Trump is extreme. But he is not "extreme right."
  - scarface74 6y ago
    If he isn’t extreme right - what positions would be to the right of his?
    - moduspol 6y ago
      A more right-wing politician would be: * Fiscally conservative * Against tariffs * Actually protective of gun rights * More interventionist in foreign affairs * Strong law and order approach to drug policy * Unsupportive of gay marriage * Actually religious It's a pretty commonly held view that Trump is more populist and "not a real conservative" even among his opponents.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - scarface74 6y ago
        When has there ever been a seriously fiscally conservative Presidential Candidate? Buchanan was considered one of the most right wing candidates in modern politics and he was very much pro tariffs. Trump is also very friendly with the NRA. Reagan was all about gun control - at least when Black folks were exercising their rights (the Muliford Act) He might support gay marriage but he also tried to remove health care from the transgender. All Republican candidates pander to the religious right without being actually religious.
belorn 6y ago
An intresting blog post, but a few comments... Switzerland has conscription which is conceptually very different from the 2nd amendment in both purpose and implementation. The US had conscription in the past but forcing people against their will to mandatory service is something which individualistic culture tend to dislike. The effect of conscription on homicide rates is also a complex and difficult topic. There is definitive people who argue that forcing young adults into a pre-determined future is a good thing to shape young women and men into productive citizens. Others argue that robbing peoples right to choose their own destiny is very harmful to anyone who does not fit the mold. Even with the possible benefits if, on the average, forcing young people into pre-determined destinies would produce more law abiding citizen, I would not personally be in favor of it. As someone who live in an other country with conscription, it is not worth it.
- jki275 6y ago
  Conscription isn’t related to the second amendment at all. The US still has conscription. We haven’t called up a draft since the Vietnam war - but every adult male has to register, and there are consequences for failing to do so.
  - int_19h 6y ago
    In fact, even non-citizen residents have to register (except those who are on non-immigrant visas), and can be drafted if the draft is reactivated. This includes undocumented immigrants, regardless of whether they ever had a visa or not.
    - jki275 6y ago
      oh wow, I didn't even know that (the last part). I've always thought that if a non-citizen is inducted into the armed forces in any way they should immediately be eligible for citizenship. As I understand it, there's still a relatively complex process they have to navigate to get that done.
bbarnett 6y ago
I'm a Canuck, but it is no secret how close our two countries, our peoples are. Some of us point and scoff, but these are the same sort which laugh when someone stubs their toe. Buffoons, they are. The lion's share of us watch, concerned. Not just for ourselves, and of what might come from utter chaos to the south. We are legitimatley concerned for what we view as family. I personally feel as if I am watching a beloved sibling, mess up their life for incomprehensible reasons. You want to help, you want to intervene, stop the pain.. but you feel that it may only make things worse. After all, how can you help, when you can't even understand? I agree with what you said, the media is broken. I can think of some fixes, like a constant "this is not news, but an opinion piece" banner or some such, but I doubt that will really help. It does seem to me, that a tiny, tiny percentage of the population is causing a HUGE disruption for almost everyone else. I mean tiny, a core of 0.001%, with all sorts of others "hanging on". While the issues raised have some legitimacy, the media has thrown gas on the fire, and in a way which reduces chances for either side to resolve things. Instead, we get, as you elude to, absurd, useless theatre.
- mistermann 6y ago
  > absurd, useless theatre. It may be absurd, but it certainly isn't useless. Divide and conquer/rule has been an effective approach for ages, and the internet has made it even easier and more effective. And the beauty of it is that it seems to be almost impossible for the human mind to detect its presence, which is a big part of why it's so effective I suppose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule

HeWhoLurksLate 6y ago

A comment on your blog post sums up quite well my opinion of your piece- >I cannot believe you wrote a web page that reads my mind and converts it into text! This is the most amazing technology I have ever seen. It literally scanned all my chaotic thoughts and emotions over the last couple of months and distilled them into a series of coherent, well written sentences that convey exactly what I wanted to say, but didn’t know how to say it. You are either the most amazing programmer in the world, or an excellent essayist. Either way, thank you. I agree. Thank you for that essay, I'll be sharing it with several of my friends.

willcipriano 6y ago

>Worse, I don’t think companies or representatives realize how few even a few thousand retweets really are... 1k retweets could mean as little as someone spent $30[0], think about that you could ruin someones life for $30 and you don't even have to get out of bed to do it. [0]https://www.redsocial.net/buy-twitter-retweets/ https://www.redsocial.net/buy-twitter-retweets/

Polylactic_acid 6y ago
I don't think people realise how manipulated social media is. There are so many marketing services that scan every comment posted on every social media to alert the marketing team when their product is mentioned so they can jump in and start shilling. I used to use one to scan for my FOSS project name so I could answer questions and help people but the scope for abuse here is huge.

aSplash0fDerp 6y ago

It may be a case of just talking louder than the other comments (amplifying as you say) Your last paragraph is a strategy I've labeled "tarpitting" (you want to avoid these environments or at least point them out). I rarely click social links, but the Seattle hit-and-run comments on Twitter shows the noise floor levels. https://mobile.twitter.com/ASeattleStoner/status/1279653208831344640 https://mobile.twitter.com/ASeattleStoner/status/12796532088... Everything about the link is NSFW, but it summarizes your comment very well.

AlexMax 6y ago

> Further exasperating the issue is the fact we deplatform people with opposing opinions. Now Reddit is even removing people who upvote stories or comments differ from their ideology. What are the opposing opinions and the differing ideologies that you're worried about being silenced?

dcow 6y ago
It actually doesn't matter. "Opposing opinions and differing ideologies" must be protected regardless of what they are. It's pointless to cherry-pick.
- AlexMax 6y ago
  Actually it does matter, if we want to be honest about why we're even having this conversation. Deplatforming and banning doesn't happen because of some abstract whim, so defending it in abstract terms sans context seems like it's overlooking a large chunk of the conversation.
  - dcow 6y ago
    No. It doesn't. We're having this conversation because angry mobs are unjustly destroying peoples lives. If you think that's okay then we're at an impasse. Abstract freedom of expression is a prerequisite for preventing oppression by majority rule. It's fundamental to our core as citizens in the United States.
    - AlexMax 6y ago
      To be clear, are you saying that if I don't agree with preserving the abstract freedom of expression on private social spaces, I am pro angry mob destroying peoples lives?
      - dcow 6y ago
        Not directly, of course. I am saying that the concession that we need to moderate "dirty" behavior is, in and of itself, the rhetoric that validates the mob behavior we're seeing. And there's a difference between dirty and illegal. We do not disagree that unlawful content can responsibly be remove by citizens from the internet. The extrajudicial removal of miscreant expression is what we're talking about.

gerdesj 6y ago

"Now Reddit is even removing people who upvote stories or comments differ from their ideology." Could you provide some examples please? Assertions are all very well. (BTW "the country" is not HN. I'm a Brit)

ahelwer 6y ago
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/techwatch/corinne-weaver/2020/02/25/reddit-suspends-users-who-upvote-content-quarantined https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/techwatch/corinne-weaver/2...
- rhizome 6y ago
  First of all, Newsbusters is crap. Secondly, that story does not say what you say it does. What Reddit is doing is actually warning people that they are interacting with the site in the manner of coordinated bots. Certainly you aren't suggesting they should just banhammer at first blush, isn't a warning a nicety? Whether or not these are botnet operators complaining that the site has developed defenses against them is a questoin for the reader, but the fact remains that something gets posted, something gets flagged, and if that happens to be coincidentally the only (or most of) the stuff you upvote, then the defenses start falling into place to your detriment. How would you deal with the problem as I've stated it (accounts that only upvote stuff that winds up getting removed)?
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    With all those words you typed you could have done a whole lot of googling to find a source befitting your standards. Reddit sends you warnings, several of them, before banning your account if you upvote things it doesn't like. I know because it happened to me.
    - rhizome 6y ago
      That's not a problem as I see it so I don't need a better source telling me it is a problem. And you know just as well as I do that it's not, "things it doesn't like."

manigandham 6y ago

This is exactly what's happening. Hyper-partisan extremist perspectives that are built up by a frenzy of social engagement turning people into blind attackers of whatever they deem "wrong". We just aren't built for this addiction to a constant global stimulus by faceless anonymous accounts sharing hot takes that can't be verified but elicit a deeply emotional reaction. We're losing our minds.

api 6y ago
There are many examples featuring extremists from all around the political landscape, but the one I find simultaneously the most fascinating and terrifying is the Qanon cult. Look into it a bit if you want to see just how deep the folie-a-deux social media rabbit hole goes. Someone should do a STTNG universe spinoff on the origin of the Borg, kind of like Caprica. "We are Borg. You will be pilled. Resistance is futile. #borg #assimilate #wwg1wga" "Borg" could start off as a fringe cult that goes viral, then someone invents direct neural connections (Neuralink?) and the members of the cult become a superintelligence and take over the whole society. They are the ones who become the first real collective intelligence because they live online and already have this cult identity that submerges the individual. Once the cult turned superintelligence takes over, it starts venturing out to "red pill" the entire universe. I mean what do you think is happening in all those cells on those ships? All the anons are meme-ing each other.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  But if they had a collective-intelligence, whose purpose really is to assimilate all other intelligences (and ideas, and so consequently ideals) then one would hope an honest, good-faith battle for ideas would play out inside this collective-intelligence and they would see just how indefensible that incel/MRA/redpill rubbish is compared to other ideas grounded in more substance. More fundamentally: a lot of reactionary opinion and right-leaning politics are predicated on a lack of empathy for others: I detect (armchair diagnosis) a lot of behaviour attributable to being on autistic-spectrum amongst far-right activists on the internet: it’s easy to rail against proponents of equality and doing things for a greater-good when one can’t relate to them - or be physically incapable of relating to them - but neurotypical people can end up also being unable to relate to others online, and this isn’t anything new: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/my-life-aspergers/200811/is-the-internet-making-people-little-bit-autistic https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/my-life-aspergers/20... ...so if there really was a collective-intelligence comprised of the worst of reactionary right-wing internet users, then I would actively encourage them to harvest the brains of the Tumblr users they troll so much: that way they would assimilate empathy and finally understand for themselves how the rest of the world operates.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

scarface74 6y ago

The right elected someone who is on the extreme compared to more moderate candidates in 2016. The left nominated a moderate in 2016 and 2020. I can’t help but to conclude that the extreme right is the majority of the Republican Party. Sanders was rejected twice.

moduspol 6y ago
Donald Trump is extreme. But he is not "extreme right."
- scarface74 6y ago
  If he isn’t extreme right - what positions would be to the right of his?
  - moduspol 6y ago
    A more right-wing politician would be: * Fiscally conservative * Against tariffs * Actually protective of gun rights * More interventionist in foreign affairs * Strong law and order approach to drug policy * Unsupportive of gay marriage * Actually religious It's a pretty commonly held view that Trump is more populist and "not a real conservative" even among his opponents.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - scarface74 6y ago
      When has there ever been a seriously fiscally conservative Presidential Candidate? Buchanan was considered one of the most right wing candidates in modern politics and he was very much pro tariffs. Trump is also very friendly with the NRA. Reagan was all about gun control - at least when Black folks were exercising their rights (the Muliford Act) He might support gay marriage but he also tried to remove health care from the transgender. All Republican candidates pander to the religious right without being actually religious.

belorn 6y ago

An intresting blog post, but a few comments... Switzerland has conscription which is conceptually very different from the 2nd amendment in both purpose and implementation. The US had conscription in the past but forcing people against their will to mandatory service is something which individualistic culture tend to dislike. The effect of conscription on homicide rates is also a complex and difficult topic. There is definitive people who argue that forcing young adults into a pre-determined future is a good thing to shape young women and men into productive citizens. Others argue that robbing peoples right to choose their own destiny is very harmful to anyone who does not fit the mold. Even with the possible benefits if, on the average, forcing young people into pre-determined destinies would produce more law abiding citizen, I would not personally be in favor of it. As someone who live in an other country with conscription, it is not worth it.

jki275 6y ago
Conscription isn’t related to the second amendment at all. The US still has conscription. We haven’t called up a draft since the Vietnam war - but every adult male has to register, and there are consequences for failing to do so.
- int_19h 6y ago
  In fact, even non-citizen residents have to register (except those who are on non-immigrant visas), and can be drafted if the draft is reactivated. This includes undocumented immigrants, regardless of whether they ever had a visa or not.
  - jki275 6y ago
    oh wow, I didn't even know that (the last part). I've always thought that if a non-citizen is inducted into the armed forces in any way they should immediately be eligible for citizenship. As I understand it, there's still a relatively complex process they have to navigate to get that done.

bbarnett 6y ago

I'm a Canuck, but it is no secret how close our two countries, our peoples are. Some of us point and scoff, but these are the same sort which laugh when someone stubs their toe. Buffoons, they are. The lion's share of us watch, concerned. Not just for ourselves, and of what might come from utter chaos to the south. We are legitimatley concerned for what we view as family. I personally feel as if I am watching a beloved sibling, mess up their life for incomprehensible reasons. You want to help, you want to intervene, stop the pain.. but you feel that it may only make things worse. After all, how can you help, when you can't even understand? I agree with what you said, the media is broken. I can think of some fixes, like a constant "this is not news, but an opinion piece" banner or some such, but I doubt that will really help. It does seem to me, that a tiny, tiny percentage of the population is causing a HUGE disruption for almost everyone else. I mean tiny, a core of 0.001%, with all sorts of others "hanging on". While the issues raised have some legitimacy, the media has thrown gas on the fire, and in a way which reduces chances for either side to resolve things. Instead, we get, as you elude to, absurd, useless theatre.

mistermann 6y ago
> absurd, useless theatre. It may be absurd, but it certainly isn't useless. Divide and conquer/rule has been an effective approach for ages, and the internet has made it even easier and more effective. And the beauty of it is that it seems to be almost impossible for the human mind to detect its presence, which is a big part of why it's so effective I suppose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule