16 ms·

EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

285 points by 8bitsrule 6y ago

AdamJacobMuller 6y ago
good commentary on blancolirio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G62sSwC4t_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G62sSwC4t_g as usual
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  I watched the video - fair coverage. The importance of being on top of licenses and other paperwork is that if you can't get the paperwork right, how can you get the rest right? Some other notables: - India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan - South Korea has CRM and sim evaluation issues with ex-military crews (resulting in the SFO crash) - SFO has struggled with ILS maintenance in the past decade. (Foreign air crews expect to do ILS approaches, not visuals. See SK SFO accident above.) - African operators have problems with cabin crews opening doors after landing during taxi to let thieves steal luggage, etc. as the airliner is moving! - Australia had an issue with drug smugglers accessing luggage. Hope that's resolved. - Philippines had an issue with airport staff inserting bullets into luggage, then extorting tourists. Resolved after numerous news reports.
  - t0mas88 6y ago
    The SFO case is interesting, because it's not just "foreign crews don't like visual approaches". It's because the US is commonly using visual approaches kind of as a loophole to reduce separation. All major carriers require that crews use the ILS (or RNAV) as a backup to a visual approach if it's available. But by clearing for a visual approach the controller is no longer required to keep the planes on approach separated. I know a few European airlines that encourage their crews not to accept visual approaches in the US and request an ILS approach instead, because it's safer. Europe has solved the same "we need more planes per hour" problem by allowing a reduced 2.5nm separation when both planes are established in the localizer and are radar monitored by the controller. As a pilot I prefer the European way, because it's more structured and has a few more safeguards. The US method puts the problem with the pilot, who has far worse means to judge separation than the controller
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      far worse means to judge separation than the controller Those cockpit windows don't seem like they provide the best view... Out of curiosity, do civilian aircraft have onboard radar? If so, what directions can it see (up/down/front/back/sides)?
      - dmurray 6y ago
        Yes, it's the TCAS. It sees in all directions. It's secondary radar so it only sees planes with a transponder, but that's usually all of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...
        tialaramex 6y ago
        > It's secondary radar so it only sees planes with a transponder, but that's usually all of them. In particular we're talking here about aeroplanes on an approach to a major airport (if they aren't on approach then by definition they aren't choosing between ILS and a visual clearance, and if it isn't a major airport why are we trying to bunch them up more?). All US major airports have a "Mode C veil" which means there's a regulation requiring aircraft near those airports to have transponders ("Mode C" is a transponder mode in which the aircraft reports its own assessment of its altitude based on air pressure as well as a four octal identifier).
        bencoder 6y ago
        Since January 1st 2020 the requirement is for ADS-B out. So they will be reporting their GPS position also, now.
      - t0mas88 6y ago
        Airliners have radar in the nose, you can see the different colored part of the nosecone on some, that's where the antenna is. It points forward, scanning horizontal, with stabilization to compensate for climbing/descending and the pilots can control the tilt to scan above/below the current altitude. But it's weather radar, so it mostly sees water droplets (rainshowers, thunderstorms etc), not other planes. The TCAS system scans for transponders from other planes in all directions, checks their path and altitude and will play audible alerts (it shouts "traffic, traffic!") when there is a potential collision risk. You can use it to see other planes on the navigation display, but you cannot legally call that "visual separation". If a controller asks you whether you have traffic in sight (they must ask that before they can tell you to follow it for example), you cannot say you have it on the screen. That doesn't count, you have to see it out the window.
  - godzillabrennus 6y ago
    Philippines still has the cash fees/bribes scam for all when you fly out of Clark. After you pay for the ticket, and checking you bag, you have various cash fees to pay as you get through security. Woe is you if you didn’t bring cash as you’ll be unable to board unless you pull cash out when there.
    - newyankee 6y ago
      What do you mean ? This is run by the employees or someone else. I used to bemoan the corruption in India but at least recently a lot of things have reduced. e.g. When you came back from an international flight, 'agents' would court you and suggesting skipping customs for a bribe (they did the dirty work), this has been mostly eliminated at least in Mumbai airport. I cannot imagine what a sour taste it will leave if you cannot board a plane. In any case what reason will the authorities have to detain you ? I am assuming you are talking about some official fees and not bribes.
      - mrghn 6y ago
        This is just the official airport tax that is normally included in your airline ticket price for most other airports/countries. It's cash only, and they'll gladly accept major foreign currencies at greatly inflated rates if you're caught unaware: https://www.clark-airport.com/ https://www.clark-airport.com/
  - chetangole 6y ago
    what is the source of your statement - _"India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan"_
    - manojlds 6y ago
      I only see news articles from 2011.
      - galtwho 6y ago
        his claim was even more extraordinary.. apparently the problem is IDENTICAL
  - siddlv 6y ago
    > India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan Can you provide a source for this?
  - galtwho 6y ago
    you should provide sources for your list of notables, atleast for extraordinary claim like the first 2
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    2011: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Nose-wheel-landing-DGCA-cancels-pilots-licence/articleshow/7586108.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Nose-wheel-landing... https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/fake-pilots-scam-police-issue-lookout-notice-against-4/articleshow/7807587.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Two-more-pilots-land-in-trouble-for-fake-licences/articleshow/7658947.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Two-more-pilots-la...
- nutrifacs 6y ago
  I have been reading hackernews for a number of years, but I have created an account just to reply to this comment blancolirio is not a good, nor trust worthy, source. Nearly every word from this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mampv8DdHlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mampv8DdHlU - is, some would argue, stolen, word for word, from an article by The Air Current
pycbr1 6y ago
Hope the world never finds out how we get our driver's license.
- robin_reala 6y ago
  They know already. A perennial topic of annoyance for US immigrants in Sweden is that their US licence is only valid for a year here, then they have to retake their test (unlike immigrants from the EU who get to convert theirs automatically).
  - Svip 6y ago
    Germany restricts US driving licences depending on issuing US state. Denmark is apparently far more willing to let it slide, and anyone with a US driving licence can get it converted to a Danish one with just a doctor's approval. Although, in Denmark, their US licence is only valid for a month. But you don't have to retake the test. I am frankly a bit puzzled by this decision.
    - culturestate 6y ago
      > Germany restricts US driving licences depending on issuing US state. I always wonder about the situations that inspired regulations like these and exactly how they believe they're solving whatever that problem was. Was there a rash of accidents involving drivers from Texas? Did someone from Delaware blow the German test so badly that they soured the state's reputation forever? Is this somehow American Top Gear's fault?
      - brewmarche 6y ago
        The source of this table is probably a legal review of the different exam requirements rather than accident rates and reputation.
        culturestate 6y ago
        I thought about that, but given how easily convertible driving license are between states it still seems like a bad solution to whatever problem they're trying to avoid.
_-___________-_ 6y ago
The article makes only a passing reference to the recent crash, but serious pilot error ("incompetence on an astonishing scale" might be a better phrase than "error") appears to be a major factor in it. http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0
- square_usual 6y ago
  This was awful to read. The control tower repeatedly warned them about their trajectory, and even advised them to discontinue the approach. I can't even imagine how awful it must've been to those aboard who placed their trust in the pilots.
  - goodcanadian 6y ago
    In my opinion, ATC is also culpable (though much less so). They could have and should have ordered a go around, but instead, they re-cleared the airplane to land.
    - Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
      The final authority in flying an airplane safely is always in the hands of the pilot. The pilot is always responsible. ATC may not have all the information, not know specifics of the aircraft or this specific flight. It is just not practical to have procedures where the ATC is the final authority for every single flight, with all the various different airplanes, so the pilot always is.
      - krisoft 6y ago
        Exactly as Erlich_Bachman wrote. Also want to add one more reason: The pilot's neck is always on the line, while the ATC usually won't get physically hurt. The incentives are better aligned if it's the pilot who has final authority.
        goodcanadian 6y ago
throwaway_12351 6y ago
Does anyone have a good reference to competition vs compliance in the airline industry? US has a very competitive airline industry, and hence the incentives for regulations seems to be quite high. On one hand, since Pakistan has a small fleet (60 planes across 3 airlines per wikipedia), I would assume it's highly competitive and there isn't any room for error/bribing. It's also possible that it's very competitive so not much incentive to invest time in getting a license? It's also quite odd that Pakistan has really stagnant airline industry while almost all other economies have growing airline transporation. It was 9.63Mn in 2016, and down to 6.88Mn in 2018. Per https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Pakistan/Airline_passengers/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Pakistan/Airline_passengers....
- baybal2 6y ago
  Heavily subsidised gulf carriers (many of which were founded by ex-PIA cadres...) have ate the lunch of the few Pakistani private carriers. PIA used to be nation's pride from its better days, so it's politically hard to rectify it when people with statist sentiment now run the establishment. Just like Pakrail, and PSM, PIA will be kept afloat, and safe away from privatisation. Khan's administration took down Sharif, and Punjabi old money people, now come Pathan old money people, and people with even stronger conviction that having a state job legitimately entitles them to run state companies like a family business.
  - Answerawake 6y ago
    Just out of curiosity. How has Kahn done in your opinion. I don't follow the news too much but I am curious. It just seems like with Pakistan it is impossible to get an objective unbiased opinion anywhere of how things are really going.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      > Just out of curiosity. How has Kahn done in your opinion. Mixed feelings. He cleaned up the state... a bit. People rightfully raise his, and his officers' lacklustre execution skills. Just like two previous establishments, Khan too bogged down in networks of local elites, and old money people with whom he did horsetrading in order for PTI to come to power. At least, unlike the previous leaders, he recognises it as a problem. He came to power on the promise of undoing the system of clan elites dominating the country, but that's kind of hard to do when your own lieutenants, and backers are made of the same elites... Pakistan is effectively split in between three huge ethnocentric elites, Sindhi/Seraiki Bhutto dynasty, Punjabi Sharif, and Pathan Khan. Pathan elites were prominent with military, hence Khan's coming to power. And there is a strong statist culture, where state companies used to provide the most lucrative jobs in the country. And there is a culture where people believe that being made a boss is a fully legitimate entitlement to run a state company/ministry/corporate unit like a family business, and there is nothing wrong with that. A huge generational struggle is happening with people who want to end it vs. ones who don't. The a massive brain drain that Pakistan experienced after Zia's coup, and mass immigration of anybody of talent will take years to reverse, and undo the negative selection effect.
godsplan1 6y ago
> On Jun 24th 2020: While introducing the preliminary report, Pakistan's Aviation Minister stated, that both flight crew and ATC failed to follow procedures, the pilots discussed Coronavirus and were not focussed on their piloting tasks, when ATC advised about altitude the crew replied they would manage it and again discussed Coronavirus. The crew was overconfident and not focussed. The captain's last three words were 'Ya Allah', 'Ya Allah', 'Ya Allah'. Source : http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0
- netsharc 6y ago
  I get the impression the last sentence is written (and you copy-pasted) with a bit of sneer towards their religion; in case it is, how many videos have we seen of Americans watching disaster unfolding and repeatedly saying "Ehmagerd, ehmagerd, ehmagerd"? Your account is 2 minutes older than this post... do we need to worry?
  - godsplan1 6y ago
    I am not sure where is this coming from ... I reported the statement as it is .. the thing to worry about is this : The crew was overconfident and not focussed.
    - stingraycharles 6y ago
      I think the main concern is that you created your account just to post this, and it can be interpreted as politically opinionated. In today’s social media climate, one needs to be fairly sceptical when it comes to this kind of stuff. Having said this, I confirm that this excerpt comes directly from the report.
      - meigwilym 6y ago
        Especially when their username is "godsplan1".
        6y ago
Jdam 6y ago
If this doesn't apply to the UK as well, it is not enough. I would like to see a flyover ban as well, as PIA flies through the EU to the UK. I'm following the aviation industry closely and there are plenty of reports every now and then where PIA flights don't respond on radio anymore, triggering fighter intercepts. It is assumed that those pilots are oftentimes either sleeping or just don't bother because of their ego, which was built in their former careers as military pilots. I don't want to have PIA planes crashing into others or falling on my head.
- aembleton 6y ago
  Following the EASA’s decision, the UK Civil Aviation Authority said it, too, was withdrawing PIA’s permit to operate from three of its airports, as required under law. “PIA flights from Birmingham, London Heathrow and Manchester airports are suspended with immediate effect,” a spokesman for the UK authority told Reuters. Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-airlines-eu/eu-safety-agency-suspends-pakistani-airlines-european-authorisation-for-six-months-idUSKBN2412MT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-airlines-eu/eu-s...
- newsbinator 6y ago
  > triggering fighter intercepts Also this costs tax money. Why spend the money on intercepts when you can ban the people causing the problems?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - VBprogrammer 6y ago
    Only on paper. Let's face it if the pilots weren't flying intercepts they'd need to be flying training missions. Anyway, the sunk cost of buying, maintaining and operating fighter jets is so high that the marginal cost of a mission is a bit of a wash.
    - gruez 6y ago
      >Let's face it if the pilots weren't flying intercepts they'd need to be flying training missions Is this really the case? Are there training missions 24/7? If not, does flying an intercept cause a future training mission to be canceled?
Bobbcatt 6y ago
In the US, the blame is still on slavery for black's underachievement.
goatinaboat 6y ago
Playing devils advocate but if PIA pilots really are that bad why wasn’t the accreditation of the certifying authorities withdrawn long ago? What I mean is why didn’t this show up before in the accident statistics? Or were the Western aviation authorities turning a blind eye to it and their hands are now forced by this public revelation? If civil engineers in a particular country were all fraudulent and buildings were collapsing that would surely be noticed. Or fraudulent surgeons and people dying.

285 points by 8bitsrule 6y ago

good commentary on blancolirio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G62sSwC4t_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G62sSwC4t_g as usual

redis_mlc 6y ago
I watched the video - fair coverage. The importance of being on top of licenses and other paperwork is that if you can't get the paperwork right, how can you get the rest right? Some other notables: - India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan - South Korea has CRM and sim evaluation issues with ex-military crews (resulting in the SFO crash) - SFO has struggled with ILS maintenance in the past decade. (Foreign air crews expect to do ILS approaches, not visuals. See SK SFO accident above.) - African operators have problems with cabin crews opening doors after landing during taxi to let thieves steal luggage, etc. as the airliner is moving! - Australia had an issue with drug smugglers accessing luggage. Hope that's resolved. - Philippines had an issue with airport staff inserting bullets into luggage, then extorting tourists. Resolved after numerous news reports.
- t0mas88 6y ago
  The SFO case is interesting, because it's not just "foreign crews don't like visual approaches". It's because the US is commonly using visual approaches kind of as a loophole to reduce separation. All major carriers require that crews use the ILS (or RNAV) as a backup to a visual approach if it's available. But by clearing for a visual approach the controller is no longer required to keep the planes on approach separated. I know a few European airlines that encourage their crews not to accept visual approaches in the US and request an ILS approach instead, because it's safer. Europe has solved the same "we need more planes per hour" problem by allowing a reduced 2.5nm separation when both planes are established in the localizer and are radar monitored by the controller. As a pilot I prefer the European way, because it's more structured and has a few more safeguards. The US method puts the problem with the pilot, who has far worse means to judge separation than the controller
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    far worse means to judge separation than the controller Those cockpit windows don't seem like they provide the best view... Out of curiosity, do civilian aircraft have onboard radar? If so, what directions can it see (up/down/front/back/sides)?
    - dmurray 6y ago
      Yes, it's the TCAS. It sees in all directions. It's secondary radar so it only sees planes with a transponder, but that's usually all of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...
      - tialaramex 6y ago
        > It's secondary radar so it only sees planes with a transponder, but that's usually all of them. In particular we're talking here about aeroplanes on an approach to a major airport (if they aren't on approach then by definition they aren't choosing between ILS and a visual clearance, and if it isn't a major airport why are we trying to bunch them up more?). All US major airports have a "Mode C veil" which means there's a regulation requiring aircraft near those airports to have transponders ("Mode C" is a transponder mode in which the aircraft reports its own assessment of its altitude based on air pressure as well as a four octal identifier).
        bencoder 6y ago
        Since January 1st 2020 the requirement is for ADS-B out. So they will be reporting their GPS position also, now.
    - t0mas88 6y ago
      Airliners have radar in the nose, you can see the different colored part of the nosecone on some, that's where the antenna is. It points forward, scanning horizontal, with stabilization to compensate for climbing/descending and the pilots can control the tilt to scan above/below the current altitude. But it's weather radar, so it mostly sees water droplets (rainshowers, thunderstorms etc), not other planes. The TCAS system scans for transponders from other planes in all directions, checks their path and altitude and will play audible alerts (it shouts "traffic, traffic!") when there is a potential collision risk. You can use it to see other planes on the navigation display, but you cannot legally call that "visual separation". If a controller asks you whether you have traffic in sight (they must ask that before they can tell you to follow it for example), you cannot say you have it on the screen. That doesn't count, you have to see it out the window.
- godzillabrennus 6y ago
  Philippines still has the cash fees/bribes scam for all when you fly out of Clark. After you pay for the ticket, and checking you bag, you have various cash fees to pay as you get through security. Woe is you if you didn’t bring cash as you’ll be unable to board unless you pull cash out when there.
  - newyankee 6y ago
    What do you mean ? This is run by the employees or someone else. I used to bemoan the corruption in India but at least recently a lot of things have reduced. e.g. When you came back from an international flight, 'agents' would court you and suggesting skipping customs for a bribe (they did the dirty work), this has been mostly eliminated at least in Mumbai airport. I cannot imagine what a sour taste it will leave if you cannot board a plane. In any case what reason will the authorities have to detain you ? I am assuming you are talking about some official fees and not bribes.
    - mrghn 6y ago
      This is just the official airport tax that is normally included in your airline ticket price for most other airports/countries. It's cash only, and they'll gladly accept major foreign currencies at greatly inflated rates if you're caught unaware: https://www.clark-airport.com/ https://www.clark-airport.com/
- chetangole 6y ago
  what is the source of your statement - _"India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan"_
  - manojlds 6y ago
    I only see news articles from 2011.
    - galtwho 6y ago
      his claim was even more extraordinary.. apparently the problem is IDENTICAL
- siddlv 6y ago
  > India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan Can you provide a source for this?
- galtwho 6y ago
  you should provide sources for your list of notables, atleast for extraordinary claim like the first 2
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  2011: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Nose-wheel-landing-DGCA-cancels-pilots-licence/articleshow/7586108.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Nose-wheel-landing... https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/fake-pilots-scam-police-issue-lookout-notice-against-4/articleshow/7807587.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Two-more-pilots-land-in-trouble-for-fake-licences/articleshow/7658947.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Two-more-pilots-la...
nutrifacs 6y ago
I have been reading hackernews for a number of years, but I have created an account just to reply to this comment blancolirio is not a good, nor trust worthy, source. Nearly every word from this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mampv8DdHlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mampv8DdHlU - is, some would argue, stolen, word for word, from an article by The Air Current

pycbr1 6y ago

Hope the world never finds out how we get our driver's license.

robin_reala 6y ago
They know already. A perennial topic of annoyance for US immigrants in Sweden is that their US licence is only valid for a year here, then they have to retake their test (unlike immigrants from the EU who get to convert theirs automatically).
- Svip 6y ago
  Germany restricts US driving licences depending on issuing US state. Denmark is apparently far more willing to let it slide, and anyone with a US driving licence can get it converted to a Danish one with just a doctor's approval. Although, in Denmark, their US licence is only valid for a month. But you don't have to retake the test. I am frankly a bit puzzled by this decision.
  - culturestate 6y ago
    > Germany restricts US driving licences depending on issuing US state. I always wonder about the situations that inspired regulations like these and exactly how they believe they're solving whatever that problem was. Was there a rash of accidents involving drivers from Texas? Did someone from Delaware blow the German test so badly that they soured the state's reputation forever? Is this somehow American Top Gear's fault?
    - brewmarche 6y ago
      The source of this table is probably a legal review of the different exam requirements rather than accident rates and reputation.
      - culturestate 6y ago
        I thought about that, but given how easily convertible driving license are between states it still seems like a bad solution to whatever problem they're trying to avoid.

_-___________-_ 6y ago

The article makes only a passing reference to the recent crash, but serious pilot error ("incompetence on an astonishing scale" might be a better phrase than "error") appears to be a major factor in it. http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0

square_usual 6y ago
This was awful to read. The control tower repeatedly warned them about their trajectory, and even advised them to discontinue the approach. I can't even imagine how awful it must've been to those aboard who placed their trust in the pilots.
- goodcanadian 6y ago
  In my opinion, ATC is also culpable (though much less so). They could have and should have ordered a go around, but instead, they re-cleared the airplane to land.
  - Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
    The final authority in flying an airplane safely is always in the hands of the pilot. The pilot is always responsible. ATC may not have all the information, not know specifics of the aircraft or this specific flight. It is just not practical to have procedures where the ATC is the final authority for every single flight, with all the various different airplanes, so the pilot always is.
    - krisoft 6y ago
      Exactly as Erlich_Bachman wrote. Also want to add one more reason: The pilot's neck is always on the line, while the ATC usually won't get physically hurt. The incentives are better aligned if it's the pilot who has final authority.
      - goodcanadian 6y ago

throwaway_12351 6y ago

Does anyone have a good reference to competition vs compliance in the airline industry? US has a very competitive airline industry, and hence the incentives for regulations seems to be quite high. On one hand, since Pakistan has a small fleet (60 planes across 3 airlines per wikipedia), I would assume it's highly competitive and there isn't any room for error/bribing. It's also possible that it's very competitive so not much incentive to invest time in getting a license? It's also quite odd that Pakistan has really stagnant airline industry while almost all other economies have growing airline transporation. It was 9.63Mn in 2016, and down to 6.88Mn in 2018. Per https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Pakistan/Airline_passengers/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Pakistan/Airline_passengers....

baybal2 6y ago
Heavily subsidised gulf carriers (many of which were founded by ex-PIA cadres...) have ate the lunch of the few Pakistani private carriers. PIA used to be nation's pride from its better days, so it's politically hard to rectify it when people with statist sentiment now run the establishment. Just like Pakrail, and PSM, PIA will be kept afloat, and safe away from privatisation. Khan's administration took down Sharif, and Punjabi old money people, now come Pathan old money people, and people with even stronger conviction that having a state job legitimately entitles them to run state companies like a family business.
- Answerawake 6y ago
  Just out of curiosity. How has Kahn done in your opinion. I don't follow the news too much but I am curious. It just seems like with Pakistan it is impossible to get an objective unbiased opinion anywhere of how things are really going.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    > Just out of curiosity. How has Kahn done in your opinion. Mixed feelings. He cleaned up the state... a bit. People rightfully raise his, and his officers' lacklustre execution skills. Just like two previous establishments, Khan too bogged down in networks of local elites, and old money people with whom he did horsetrading in order for PTI to come to power. At least, unlike the previous leaders, he recognises it as a problem. He came to power on the promise of undoing the system of clan elites dominating the country, but that's kind of hard to do when your own lieutenants, and backers are made of the same elites... Pakistan is effectively split in between three huge ethnocentric elites, Sindhi/Seraiki Bhutto dynasty, Punjabi Sharif, and Pathan Khan. Pathan elites were prominent with military, hence Khan's coming to power. And there is a strong statist culture, where state companies used to provide the most lucrative jobs in the country. And there is a culture where people believe that being made a boss is a fully legitimate entitlement to run a state company/ministry/corporate unit like a family business, and there is nothing wrong with that. A huge generational struggle is happening with people who want to end it vs. ones who don't. The a massive brain drain that Pakistan experienced after Zia's coup, and mass immigration of anybody of talent will take years to reverse, and undo the negative selection effect.

godsplan1 6y ago

> On Jun 24th 2020: While introducing the preliminary report, Pakistan's Aviation Minister stated, that both flight crew and ATC failed to follow procedures, the pilots discussed Coronavirus and were not focussed on their piloting tasks, when ATC advised about altitude the crew replied they would manage it and again discussed Coronavirus. The crew was overconfident and not focussed. The captain's last three words were 'Ya Allah', 'Ya Allah', 'Ya Allah'. Source : http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0

netsharc 6y ago
I get the impression the last sentence is written (and you copy-pasted) with a bit of sneer towards their religion; in case it is, how many videos have we seen of Americans watching disaster unfolding and repeatedly saying "Ehmagerd, ehmagerd, ehmagerd"? Your account is 2 minutes older than this post... do we need to worry?
- godsplan1 6y ago
  I am not sure where is this coming from ... I reported the statement as it is .. the thing to worry about is this : The crew was overconfident and not focussed.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    I think the main concern is that you created your account just to post this, and it can be interpreted as politically opinionated. In today’s social media climate, one needs to be fairly sceptical when it comes to this kind of stuff. Having said this, I confirm that this excerpt comes directly from the report.
    - meigwilym 6y ago
      Especially when their username is "godsplan1".
      - 6y ago

Jdam 6y ago

If this doesn't apply to the UK as well, it is not enough. I would like to see a flyover ban as well, as PIA flies through the EU to the UK. I'm following the aviation industry closely and there are plenty of reports every now and then where PIA flights don't respond on radio anymore, triggering fighter intercepts. It is assumed that those pilots are oftentimes either sleeping or just don't bother because of their ego, which was built in their former careers as military pilots. I don't want to have PIA planes crashing into others or falling on my head.

aembleton 6y ago
Following the EASA’s decision, the UK Civil Aviation Authority said it, too, was withdrawing PIA’s permit to operate from three of its airports, as required under law. “PIA flights from Birmingham, London Heathrow and Manchester airports are suspended with immediate effect,” a spokesman for the UK authority told Reuters. Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-airlines-eu/eu-safety-agency-suspends-pakistani-airlines-european-authorisation-for-six-months-idUSKBN2412MT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-airlines-eu/eu-s...
newsbinator 6y ago
> triggering fighter intercepts Also this costs tax money. Why spend the money on intercepts when you can ban the people causing the problems?
- deleted 6y ago
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- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  Only on paper. Let's face it if the pilots weren't flying intercepts they'd need to be flying training missions. Anyway, the sunk cost of buying, maintaining and operating fighter jets is so high that the marginal cost of a mission is a bit of a wash.
  - gruez 6y ago
    >Let's face it if the pilots weren't flying intercepts they'd need to be flying training missions Is this really the case? Are there training missions 24/7? If not, does flying an intercept cause a future training mission to be canceled?

Bobbcatt 6y ago

In the US, the blame is still on slavery for black's underachievement.

goatinaboat 6y ago

Playing devils advocate but if PIA pilots really are that bad why wasn’t the accreditation of the certifying authorities withdrawn long ago? What I mean is why didn’t this show up before in the accident statistics? Or were the Western aviation authorities turning a blind eye to it and their hands are now forced by this public revelation? If civil engineers in a particular country were all fraudulent and buildings were collapsing that would surely be noticed. Or fraudulent surgeons and people dying.