14 ms·

China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

175 points by rootsudo 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago
This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring down its own irrelevance while nursing the self-inflicted gaping wound of Brexit. I tip my hat to Beijing, they sure did know when to strike. It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. It's probably time to learn Mandarin, huh?
- stx 6y ago
  I agree. This will effectively place the HK people under Chinese laws that much more harshly punish political decent. What happened when Macau was handed back from Portugal to China? Did the people of Macau just handle it differently? I do not recall hearing about protests or much from Macau. I know Macau is very prosperous and has casinos so maybe the prosperity had an effect...
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Macau is only 670,000 people, and over 40% of them were born on the mainland. I suspect that the 澳門人 ('Macanese') people were just displaced by mainland Han Chinese over time. I believe the current Chief Executive, Ho Iat Seng, ran un-opposed with overwhelming support from Beijing. Hong Kong, being 10,000,000 or so people, was able to retain a much stronger cultural identity. It's like the difference between ceding Buffalo, NY vs New York City to Canada.
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      It is also worth noting that Hong Kong has a home-grown cultural industry (movies, songs, TV, etc) that pulled a fair share of weight, and this industry was also good at shaping the identity of future generations. Macao is much smaller and doesn't have anything comparable.
- PakG1 6y ago
  >> It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. As far as I can tell, a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment due to how easy it was for non-skilled people from other countries to enter into the UK? If so, I think that although Britons might be emotionally fine with that offer in the heat of things, they might not be so OK once they remember the negative emotions that drove Brexit in the first place. Either that, or Britons are extremely selective and discriminatory on who gets to get a pass for immigration (but that wouldn't surprise me). And then there's the other interesting factor in the wave of anti-Asian racism due to COVID-19-induced negative emotions, which the UK has also been experiencing. https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3086438/how-east-asians-uk-are-fighting-back-against https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/arti... If they go through with the offer to provide a path for citizenship for 3 million HK'ers, I think that's a decision that will force the general population to realize that they have a ton of cognitive dissonance all over the place. Or they won't, and they'll act like everything's normal and as it should be.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    As far as I can tell, Brexit was largely driven by discontent around Polish migration. There's over a million Polish citizens in the UK. This is a pretty good read [1]. [1] https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understanding-the-brexit-vote-the-impact-of-polish-immigrants-on-euroscepticism/ https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understand...
    - klipt 6y ago
      Somehow, the fact that Britain seceded from the EU over one million foreigners, makes me skeptical that they'll offer citizenship to three million foreigners.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Citizens of the commonwealth aren't foreigners in the UK (and can vote if resident -- a Canadian citizen resident in the UK can vote in UK elections), and of course, Hong Kong is ex-commonwealth so I think it's more nuanced than you're giving it credit for. The Crown was sovereign over Hong Kong for more than 150 years.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
  > I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. Even if there was different leadership, I don't see anyone changing this. China wants this more than anybody else is willing to suffer for it. What could you do? Embargo China - The economy of those embargoing china would collapse. Pass a UN Security resolution - China is a permanent member of the security council. Invade Hong Kong - China has nuclear weapons. Send a strongly worded letter? - Xi does not care about strongly worded letters.
  - iandanforth 6y ago
    Maybe international relations is more complicated than we think it is? TPP for example was meant to be an offset to China's growing power that would allow for meaningful trade negotiations. Obama had a plan, and even if I thought the IP portions were a poison pill, I can still recognize the strategic value.
- c3zh 6y ago
  The thing is the protesters are not wanting One Country Two Systems, but Two countries. They are weaving US and UK flags when protesting, telling everyone that they are not Chinese. And the list goes on. I don't think either US or UK can tolerant things like this for more than a year. Update: I can't reply any more because Hacker News thinks I'm posting too much. So please let me thanks you all for replying here. And to @cambalache: If this is true, then it is very unfortunate because "zh" is the acronym of my real name... And sorry for also getting you into this downvoting storm
  - c3zh 6y ago
    To down voters: please also leave your comment to tell others why you think I am wrong
    - SubiculumCode 6y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution
      - c3zh 6y ago
        Thank you for responding. I'm getting tons of down votes, and you are the first to say something.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    I can also speak to some of the negativity as you've asked for folks to chime in. The foreign banner waving you're seeing is a response to the perceived and actual loss of freedoms and autonomy guaranteed under Once Country, Two Systems for a minimum of the next 20 years. Beijing is failing to honor the commitments it made to the Hong Kong people, to the UK and to the international community in 1997. The Hong Kong people are as a result asking for assistance from their former colonial overlords and contractually-bound current protectors (the UK) and the "bastion of freedom" (the US). I sincerely doubt that had Beijing given Hong Kong the autonomy it committed to, you'd be seeing this kind of action on their part. It didn't need to be this way, but the CPC cannot tolerate anything that might be perceived as an attack on "national unity" (and I use quotes only because "national" as defined by the CPC extends into the sovereign land of a number of countries including (at least) Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines and India).
- fuoqi 6y ago
  It's ironic that the convoluted Hong Kong "democracy" system was directly created by British colonial administration. And this system is largely responsible for limiting ability of Hong Kong citizens to control political power in their city and thus resist mainland power grabs.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    This isn't true. The Urban Council was the colonial British council that was completely elected by universal suffrage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_Council The system today only came about because of the handover. Also note: > The People's Republic of China government did not agree with reforms to the Legislative Council enacted in 1994. Therefore, it withdrew the previous so-called "through-train" policy that would have meant that members elected to the colonial Legislative Council would automatically become members of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ("HKSAR") legislature. Instead, the Chinese government resolved to set up an alternative legislative council in preparation for the return of the sovereignty of Hong Kong from Britain to China. This body, the Provisional Legislative Council, was established by the Preparatory Committee for the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) under the National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China in 1996.[6] The Provisional Legislative Council, in operation from 25 January 1997 to 30 June 1998, initially held its meetings in Shenzhen until 30 June 1997. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko...
    - fuoqi 6y ago
      Urban Council powers were very limited and mostly covered municipal services, so it's far less important than the Legislative Council. And how is my message not true? The current system is a direct descendant of the British colonial one and your link is pretty explicit about it. Of course, PRC would like to keep the opaque, convoluted and easily influenced system, which British had. No surprises here.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  > I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership - actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world What US leader in the past fifty years has been interested in those ideals? Certainly not Obama, with how he handled events in Yemen, Libya, and Syria, not to mention the assassination program. And his predecessors weren't any better. This idea that the US has ever been a force for "freedom and democracy" is ridiculous Cold War propaganda. We are an empire, and our concern for Hong Kong has always been about maintaining our interests there.
  - obiye 6y ago
    US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.
    - fiblye 6y ago
      >Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?
      - obiye 6y ago
        Their “ideals” are more land and more power for themselves. That is their publicly stated ambition. That is what is ridiculous.
      - baybal2 6y ago
        > This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something? As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality. Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades. I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves. Just like an airplane on autopilot will fly aimlessly until it runs out of fuel, or runs into a mountain, both Xi, and Putin just want their systems to last as much as they can, and if they need to invade few countries to sate primal urges of their polities, they think "so be it"
- xref 6y ago
  What do you want America to do about it? Hong Kong is Chinese soil. Let’s flip it, how well would America receive pressure from China because we won’t allow Washington DC equal representation by becoming a state? We’d be pretty irate and tell the CCP to pound sand it’s not their business.
  - av_engr 6y ago
    Exactly what the US just did now? (Removal of special economic and political status) HK receive "Special" treatment in many ways for being NOT really China. They are economically treated different from China and in someway exempt from certain export control restriction. Also, HK is handed over to China on the basis of the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration. It's not a one and done deal. 50 years of no change is one of the basis on the handover, and China is breaking it right now.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > Also, HK is handed over to China on the basis of the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration. It's not a one and done deal. 50 years of no change is one of the basis on the handover, and China is breaking it right now. It is a one-and-done deal unless you believe that Britain is willing to wage war on China over it.
      - av_engr 6y ago
        You don't have to wage a war upon a broken treaty. China even complained that UK was considering giving path to citizenship to British National Oversea passport holders. Many things can be done. Point is, an international treaty is broken and it doesn't make sense to justify because "china is big and powerful", we need to hold China accountable (and US/UK/western countries definitely have the power to do so)
        thaumasiotes 6y ago
        > we need to hold China accountable (and US/UK/western countries definitely have the power to do so) This is not obvious.
- ipiz0618 6y ago
  Imo, the current leadership, as a whole, has taken a far more aggressive stance against China than any of their predecessors. Not saying the US will free Hong Kong single-handedly, but there's progress. Some senators like Josh Hawley are very active in this issue. Many Hong Kongers will choose to flee, but more choose to stay. The future for Hong Kong is a grim one, and it's getting closer and closer to the worst scenario that we have imagined from the start - the whole city turning into what XinJiang is like now, only with more advanced technology because of the well-established infrastructure in Hong Kong.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    The current US administration doesn't have a foreign policy. It barely has a domestic policy. At most it has a collection of excited utterances.
- ackbar03 6y ago
  > I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US Honestly not trying to be snarky or anything but purely observationally, I find it interesting how people automatically default to thinking America should have done something about something going on in a completely different country of which they do not really understand the history and culture. And if you've been following global developments on any scale, you would have realized the time to learn mandarin was a long time ago
  - magicsmoke 6y ago
    The bedrock of western ideals that the US was born from contains a lot of influences from Christianity, especially the part where the duty of a good Christian is to spread the faith and convert heathens around the world to the one true faith in order to save them from eternal damnation in hell. Although religiosity as a whole is going down in the western world, this savior complex still persists and echos of it can be seen in how many people in the West feel a need to, as you put it, do something to spread democracy and human rights on the other side of the world regardless of local history or customs because it's for their own good.
    - morceauxdebois 6y ago
      The US was also founded on a continental wide genocide that even the Nazis couldn't accomplish.
      - magicsmoke 6y ago
        You're seeing the unintended consequences of America's shoddy foundation of slavery, genocide, and short-sighted decision making in all the protests in these past decades as historically abused minority groups rise up to demand their fair share of wealth and power.
  - jhanschoo 6y ago
    > the history and culture. That's because the status quo is that the US Pacific Fleet has a presence in the region that is welcome by several EA and SEA polities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pacific_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pacific_Fleet International relations in East Asia and SEA hinge greatly on the ability of the US to respond and deter Chinese aggression against its neighbors, and persuade that a cooperative approach is more productive.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  It is nothing you can blame leadership for. Platforms on the net are currently banning 'hate' or dissent without justification. "The west" looks like a oppressive regime that has problems with racial tensions. HKers just don't get support for freedom or self expression or democracy in the current situation. The image the west paints is that platforms get sanitized in the interest of advertisers. The time to strike was now and they did.
- politicdone 6y ago
  or perhaps it's the chance for Hong Kong to renew itself? It couldn't compete economically with growth in the rest of the greater Bay area and the rest of China it's certainly need some new purpose and direction. maybe the national security law can help Hong Kong regain a sense of being an extremely safe and stable place. a shining light for the rule of law perhaps. certainly that would be a welcome contrast to the images of dissenting voices being set on fire and violently assaulted by the self-appointed protectors of free speech and democracy on Hong Kong streets. you can support the heroic actions of those young misguided hongkongers if you'd like... and see it in simplistic terms as a struggle between in the red corner the evil China and in the blue corner the wonders of democracy.... or you can grasp the larger picture. increasing stability in Hong Kong is a good thing, while the commentary around the world is part of the noise. The divisive noise required to keep democracies functioning smoothly. anyway the security law it's certainly no death knell, although I'd say that being burned to death for having an opinion that diverges from the mob, was definitely a threatening blow to freedom and the rule of law in Hong Kong. so not a death knell but the security law is an exact implementation of the agreement that Britain and China created together. every step the China is taking its right there in the basic law as created by China and Britain in 1997. I think you can understand this situation because countries like Britain and America they have to say they disapprove, to conform to their populations expectations, but in reality every country's working towards the same goal. it's just that to admit this would cause the useful fantasy in each particular place to collapse. for now the best way to get to a better future globally is for different countries to have their own stories.
- kmlx 6y ago
  > While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring down its own irrelevance while nursing the self-inflicted gaping wound of Brexit. I tip my hat to Beijing, they sure did know when to strike. > It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. Just so that we're all on the same page: https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-threat-seize-hong-kong-day https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-th... > DENG Xiaoping threatened China could seize Hong Kong in a day, former British prime minister Lady Thatcher has revealed. The threat by the Chinese patriarch was contained in his famous warning that Beijing might take back the territory before 1997 at their September 1982 meeting in the Great Hall of the People, Lady Thatcher says in her memoirs, The Downing Street Years, to be published tomorrow. The threat is being used to try to block Governor Chris Patten's moves towards greater democracy in Hong Kong. ''He said that the Chinese could walk in and take Hong Kong back later today if they wanted to,'' says Lady Thatcher. ''I retorted that they could indeed do so; I could not stop them. But this would bring about Hong Kong's collapse. The world would then see what followed a change from British to Chinese rule.''
ralph84 6y ago
I thought China would wait to take Taiwan first, so they could limit resistance in Taiwan by saying "we'll let you have your own system like we did in Hong Kong." Now that China has reneged on Hong Kong, Taiwan won't believe them.
- chrischen 6y ago
  That's basically exactly what happened with the last presidential election. The pro-China (conservative) party was heavily favored to win and then suddenly the Hong Kong protests ignited and reminded Taiwanese about China and the pro-USA party (liberals) ended up winning in a landslide.
  - Teknoman117 6y ago
    I hope we (the US) can clean up our act so we can go back to having at least some credibility in the world again. (other than just being rich and having a lot of guns) I'd love for us to be worthy of the praise we get from some places. I can't say that I've been particularly "proud" to say that I'm an American when I started travelling abroad a few years ago. Hard for people to miss though, I sound like a stereotypical Midwestern radio announcer. Well, maybe except for that one very plastered German guy who kept yelling at us for being English at Oktoberfest.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - yung0 6y ago
      "at least some credibility in the world again." Might have to go back about 80 years.
      - dang 6y ago
        We've banned this account for political and nationalistic flamewar. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
almost_usual 6y ago
It’s 2020 and humanity is really scared of democracy.
- rbinv 6y ago
  It's 2020 and humans are scared of humans.
- draw_down 6y ago
  Humanity, eh?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- koheripbal 6y ago
  There are many forces out there that are actively trying to diminish the global public's respect for democracy. It involves slowly eroding people's respect for the core principles we always associated with democracy... The First Amendment? We don't need that since Hate speech shouldn't be protected - and there's the Paradox of Tolerance! Second Amendment? We don't need that - no population could ever hope to topple the military anyway! Judicial process? Who needs a court, when I can organize a mob to get stuff done? Besides, the courts are hopelessly corrupt rapists! Executive branch? The police are racist belligerents who should be defunded and removed, and the Military has a long history of war crimes! Legislative Branch? Oh, that decrepit thing? Votes aren't proportionate so the small states have all the power - controlled by racists. We need a revolution! US History? It's all based on genocide and slavery. That's all we should teach. Statues / monuments? We need to tear it all down. They were all racist slave owners. When you destroy everything people believe in - it's a lot easier to get them to embrace something more extremist.
archibaldJ 6y ago
As someone who lives inside China I just hope this will encourage more direct and indirect confrontations with the system that defines the current central government i.e. among the intellects and influentials in China, now that a pillar of the freedom of Chinese expression is on its way to unnatural erosion under the paradigm introduced by this new law unto Hong Kong, that of which used to be where grey areas of Chinese politics surface themselves without cease, and where parts of the contemporary Chinese history are still being played on record, untampered.
- politicdone 6y ago
  unlikely given that the shining example of freedom of expression was the crazy chaos in Hong Kong over the last 12 months, which saw people who use their freedom of speech to voice their dissent being assaulted and set on fire. hard to find many sympathizers for this in the mainland.... but easy for many in China to see hongkongers simply as unhappy about an economic reality where in the last 30 years China has far exceeded the growth of Hong Kong. instead of pouring their energy into useless Street protests the kids of Hong Kong should make some startup companies or move to Guangzhou and make their fortune in a place that's a little more affordable to live in with a lot more space.... still I bet it must feel so satisfying to be able to blame China for all their unhappiness. The only problem is these kids being used by forces they don't understand. their energy, momentum and potential has being directed towards this end. Even the end is a good thing, the creation of a more stable society, it's not what people realize. wouldn't it be in China's interest to create a chaotic situation in Hong Kong in order to increase the contrast between the successes of its own system and the failures of the Western model espoused Hong Kong, as well as to add momentum to calls to extend national laws to Hong Kong to make up for the long-overdue article 23?
- koheripbal 6y ago
  What is the incentive for someone to "confront" the system in China? It means imprisonment, career destruction, the destruction of their family's wealth and well-being, and possibly death. The way to change a belligerent governmental system isn't through direct confrontation unless you can literally mobilize a majority of the population - it is by changing it from within. Become part of the system, spread an ideology, and change it where you can. The protest mentality in Hong Kong just provided optical cover for Beijing to accelerate their plans to implement centralized governance. The peaceful protests had some positive impact, but directly confronting the Chinese government through violent protests in Hong Kong made things worse, not better.
vincvinc 6y ago
I know this is not on many people's radar right now, but I strongly believe the rise of Xi's authoritarian nationalism is the biggest story of this century (after global warming). And this is our generation's "Berlin wall moment". By itself, you might look at this law (after it's published) and not see anything bad. But in the greater context of Chinese policy choices of the last few years, this is nothing less than the signal to end democratic open society in another part of the world. This is not just about Hong Kong. It's about a small group of powerful people thinking they can create a new order where they can do whatever they want to their own people, their neighbors and the world. They take full advantage of the naivety and openness of our global open system while openly threatening anyone who dares speak out, be it individual Canadians or Australians, the Indian state, a twitch Streamer or a Hong Kong comedian. So, Is there anything we can do? some ideas... - call to boycott the Beijing 2022 Winter olympics - share the story of the Uyghurs. Today's news include proof that Uyghur women are being sterilized en masse: https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c - if a company does not list Taiwan as an independent country, they are in effect performing appeasement politics. Increase the cost of doing business with dictators by loudly calling out these companies. Don't be shy, they are getting much more pressure from the Chinese side. It is time to pick a side. - more importantly, do NOT tolerate any discrimination towards Chinese. It's immoral and increases support for the regime: https://twitter.com/jenjpan/status/1277664711325048832?s=21 https://twitter.com/jenjpan/status/1277664711325048832?s=21 ... at least, that's what I can come up with in 10 minutes. I'm sure there's much. We need to move the Overton window on this people, the longer we let this go on, the bigger the consequences will be.
- ztratar 6y ago
  Not sure why this is downvoted, so plz have an upvote!
  - iliketosleep 6y ago
    Posts that are critical of China's gov. will automatically get downvotes from a particular subset of people.
amriksohata 6y ago
The people of Tibet, Taiwan and Hong Kong are all feeling the same about China and now add India to the list with the recent tiktok ban.
- throwawy1391273 6y ago
  > India to the list with the recent tiktok ban. LOL.You must be having some good weed down there.
quyleanh 6y ago
Besides the politic, I eager to see the moving of the global technology industries with these moving of China. Do hope the technology will go up in spite of war, ban...
rootsudo 6y ago
Removed from title is that it just passed and is going to be enforced going forth from July 1st. Less than 24 hours. This is key because July 1st used to be the annual HK march since 1997, or the hand over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_1_July_marches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_1_July_marches
yibg 6y ago
This makes me sad. I loved Hong Kong the way it was and had held out some hope that it can. stay more or less that way for a while. I knew of course that Hong Kong had a huge uphill battle. But was still waiting for that miracle.
beatle_sauce 6y ago
The core of the communist party follows an unambiguous agenda. John Garnaut described this very well in his speech "Engineers of the Soul" https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in
ngcc_hk 6y ago
The key is still we do NOT have a copy of the law on us. That is how dead our system is. This is the end. See you on the other side.

175 points by rootsudo 6y ago

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring down its own irrelevance while nursing the self-inflicted gaping wound of Brexit. I tip my hat to Beijing, they sure did know when to strike. It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. It's probably time to learn Mandarin, huh?

stx 6y ago
I agree. This will effectively place the HK people under Chinese laws that much more harshly punish political decent. What happened when Macau was handed back from Portugal to China? Did the people of Macau just handle it differently? I do not recall hearing about protests or much from Macau. I know Macau is very prosperous and has casinos so maybe the prosperity had an effect...
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Macau is only 670,000 people, and over 40% of them were born on the mainland. I suspect that the 澳門人 ('Macanese') people were just displaced by mainland Han Chinese over time. I believe the current Chief Executive, Ho Iat Seng, ran un-opposed with overwhelming support from Beijing. Hong Kong, being 10,000,000 or so people, was able to retain a much stronger cultural identity. It's like the difference between ceding Buffalo, NY vs New York City to Canada.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    It is also worth noting that Hong Kong has a home-grown cultural industry (movies, songs, TV, etc) that pulled a fair share of weight, and this industry was also good at shaping the identity of future generations. Macao is much smaller and doesn't have anything comparable.
PakG1 6y ago
>> It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. As far as I can tell, a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment due to how easy it was for non-skilled people from other countries to enter into the UK? If so, I think that although Britons might be emotionally fine with that offer in the heat of things, they might not be so OK once they remember the negative emotions that drove Brexit in the first place. Either that, or Britons are extremely selective and discriminatory on who gets to get a pass for immigration (but that wouldn't surprise me). And then there's the other interesting factor in the wave of anti-Asian racism due to COVID-19-induced negative emotions, which the UK has also been experiencing. https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3086438/how-east-asians-uk-are-fighting-back-against https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/arti... If they go through with the offer to provide a path for citizenship for 3 million HK'ers, I think that's a decision that will force the general population to realize that they have a ton of cognitive dissonance all over the place. Or they won't, and they'll act like everything's normal and as it should be.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  As far as I can tell, Brexit was largely driven by discontent around Polish migration. There's over a million Polish citizens in the UK. This is a pretty good read [1]. [1] https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understanding-the-brexit-vote-the-impact-of-polish-immigrants-on-euroscepticism/ https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understand...
  - klipt 6y ago
    Somehow, the fact that Britain seceded from the EU over one million foreigners, makes me skeptical that they'll offer citizenship to three million foreigners.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Citizens of the commonwealth aren't foreigners in the UK (and can vote if resident -- a Canadian citizen resident in the UK can vote in UK elections), and of course, Hong Kong is ex-commonwealth so I think it's more nuanced than you're giving it credit for. The Crown was sovereign over Hong Kong for more than 150 years.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. Even if there was different leadership, I don't see anyone changing this. China wants this more than anybody else is willing to suffer for it. What could you do? Embargo China - The economy of those embargoing china would collapse. Pass a UN Security resolution - China is a permanent member of the security council. Invade Hong Kong - China has nuclear weapons. Send a strongly worded letter? - Xi does not care about strongly worded letters.
- iandanforth 6y ago
  Maybe international relations is more complicated than we think it is? TPP for example was meant to be an offset to China's growing power that would allow for meaningful trade negotiations. Obama had a plan, and even if I thought the IP portions were a poison pill, I can still recognize the strategic value.
c3zh 6y ago
The thing is the protesters are not wanting One Country Two Systems, but Two countries. They are weaving US and UK flags when protesting, telling everyone that they are not Chinese. And the list goes on. I don't think either US or UK can tolerant things like this for more than a year. Update: I can't reply any more because Hacker News thinks I'm posting too much. So please let me thanks you all for replying here. And to @cambalache: If this is true, then it is very unfortunate because "zh" is the acronym of my real name... And sorry for also getting you into this downvoting storm
- c3zh 6y ago
  To down voters: please also leave your comment to tell others why you think I am wrong
  - SubiculumCode 6y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution
    - c3zh 6y ago
      Thank you for responding. I'm getting tons of down votes, and you are the first to say something.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  I can also speak to some of the negativity as you've asked for folks to chime in. The foreign banner waving you're seeing is a response to the perceived and actual loss of freedoms and autonomy guaranteed under Once Country, Two Systems for a minimum of the next 20 years. Beijing is failing to honor the commitments it made to the Hong Kong people, to the UK and to the international community in 1997. The Hong Kong people are as a result asking for assistance from their former colonial overlords and contractually-bound current protectors (the UK) and the "bastion of freedom" (the US). I sincerely doubt that had Beijing given Hong Kong the autonomy it committed to, you'd be seeing this kind of action on their part. It didn't need to be this way, but the CPC cannot tolerate anything that might be perceived as an attack on "national unity" (and I use quotes only because "national" as defined by the CPC extends into the sovereign land of a number of countries including (at least) Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines and India).
fuoqi 6y ago
It's ironic that the convoluted Hong Kong "democracy" system was directly created by British colonial administration. And this system is largely responsible for limiting ability of Hong Kong citizens to control political power in their city and thus resist mainland power grabs.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  This isn't true. The Urban Council was the colonial British council that was completely elected by universal suffrage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_Council The system today only came about because of the handover. Also note: > The People's Republic of China government did not agree with reforms to the Legislative Council enacted in 1994. Therefore, it withdrew the previous so-called "through-train" policy that would have meant that members elected to the colonial Legislative Council would automatically become members of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ("HKSAR") legislature. Instead, the Chinese government resolved to set up an alternative legislative council in preparation for the return of the sovereignty of Hong Kong from Britain to China. This body, the Provisional Legislative Council, was established by the Preparatory Committee for the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) under the National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China in 1996.[6] The Provisional Legislative Council, in operation from 25 January 1997 to 30 June 1998, initially held its meetings in Shenzhen until 30 June 1997. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko...
  - fuoqi 6y ago
    Urban Council powers were very limited and mostly covered municipal services, so it's far less important than the Legislative Council. And how is my message not true? The current system is a direct descendant of the British colonial one and your link is pretty explicit about it. Of course, PRC would like to keep the opaque, convoluted and easily influenced system, which British had. No surprises here.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership - actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world What US leader in the past fifty years has been interested in those ideals? Certainly not Obama, with how he handled events in Yemen, Libya, and Syria, not to mention the assassination program. And his predecessors weren't any better. This idea that the US has ever been a force for "freedom and democracy" is ridiculous Cold War propaganda. We are an empire, and our concern for Hong Kong has always been about maintaining our interests there.
- obiye 6y ago
  US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.
  - fiblye 6y ago
    >Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?
    - obiye 6y ago
      Their “ideals” are more land and more power for themselves. That is their publicly stated ambition. That is what is ridiculous.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      > This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something? As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality. Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades. I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves. Just like an airplane on autopilot will fly aimlessly until it runs out of fuel, or runs into a mountain, both Xi, and Putin just want their systems to last as much as they can, and if they need to invade few countries to sate primal urges of their polities, they think "so be it"
xref 6y ago
What do you want America to do about it? Hong Kong is Chinese soil. Let’s flip it, how well would America receive pressure from China because we won’t allow Washington DC equal representation by becoming a state? We’d be pretty irate and tell the CCP to pound sand it’s not their business.
- av_engr 6y ago
  Exactly what the US just did now? (Removal of special economic and political status) HK receive "Special" treatment in many ways for being NOT really China. They are economically treated different from China and in someway exempt from certain export control restriction. Also, HK is handed over to China on the basis of the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration. It's not a one and done deal. 50 years of no change is one of the basis on the handover, and China is breaking it right now.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > Also, HK is handed over to China on the basis of the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration. It's not a one and done deal. 50 years of no change is one of the basis on the handover, and China is breaking it right now. It is a one-and-done deal unless you believe that Britain is willing to wage war on China over it.
    - av_engr 6y ago
      You don't have to wage a war upon a broken treaty. China even complained that UK was considering giving path to citizenship to British National Oversea passport holders. Many things can be done. Point is, an international treaty is broken and it doesn't make sense to justify because "china is big and powerful", we need to hold China accountable (and US/UK/western countries definitely have the power to do so)
      - thaumasiotes 6y ago
        > we need to hold China accountable (and US/UK/western countries definitely have the power to do so) This is not obvious.
ipiz0618 6y ago
Imo, the current leadership, as a whole, has taken a far more aggressive stance against China than any of their predecessors. Not saying the US will free Hong Kong single-handedly, but there's progress. Some senators like Josh Hawley are very active in this issue. Many Hong Kongers will choose to flee, but more choose to stay. The future for Hong Kong is a grim one, and it's getting closer and closer to the worst scenario that we have imagined from the start - the whole city turning into what XinJiang is like now, only with more advanced technology because of the well-established infrastructure in Hong Kong.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  The current US administration doesn't have a foreign policy. It barely has a domestic policy. At most it has a collection of excited utterances.
ackbar03 6y ago
> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US Honestly not trying to be snarky or anything but purely observationally, I find it interesting how people automatically default to thinking America should have done something about something going on in a completely different country of which they do not really understand the history and culture. And if you've been following global developments on any scale, you would have realized the time to learn mandarin was a long time ago
- magicsmoke 6y ago
  The bedrock of western ideals that the US was born from contains a lot of influences from Christianity, especially the part where the duty of a good Christian is to spread the faith and convert heathens around the world to the one true faith in order to save them from eternal damnation in hell. Although religiosity as a whole is going down in the western world, this savior complex still persists and echos of it can be seen in how many people in the West feel a need to, as you put it, do something to spread democracy and human rights on the other side of the world regardless of local history or customs because it's for their own good.
  - morceauxdebois 6y ago
    The US was also founded on a continental wide genocide that even the Nazis couldn't accomplish.
    - magicsmoke 6y ago
      You're seeing the unintended consequences of America's shoddy foundation of slavery, genocide, and short-sighted decision making in all the protests in these past decades as historically abused minority groups rise up to demand their fair share of wealth and power.
- jhanschoo 6y ago
  > the history and culture. That's because the status quo is that the US Pacific Fleet has a presence in the region that is welcome by several EA and SEA polities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pacific_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pacific_Fleet International relations in East Asia and SEA hinge greatly on the ability of the US to respond and deter Chinese aggression against its neighbors, and persuade that a cooperative approach is more productive.
raxxorrax 6y ago
It is nothing you can blame leadership for. Platforms on the net are currently banning 'hate' or dissent without justification. "The west" looks like a oppressive regime that has problems with racial tensions. HKers just don't get support for freedom or self expression or democracy in the current situation. The image the west paints is that platforms get sanitized in the interest of advertisers. The time to strike was now and they did.
politicdone 6y ago
or perhaps it's the chance for Hong Kong to renew itself? It couldn't compete economically with growth in the rest of the greater Bay area and the rest of China it's certainly need some new purpose and direction. maybe the national security law can help Hong Kong regain a sense of being an extremely safe and stable place. a shining light for the rule of law perhaps. certainly that would be a welcome contrast to the images of dissenting voices being set on fire and violently assaulted by the self-appointed protectors of free speech and democracy on Hong Kong streets. you can support the heroic actions of those young misguided hongkongers if you'd like... and see it in simplistic terms as a struggle between in the red corner the evil China and in the blue corner the wonders of democracy.... or you can grasp the larger picture. increasing stability in Hong Kong is a good thing, while the commentary around the world is part of the noise. The divisive noise required to keep democracies functioning smoothly. anyway the security law it's certainly no death knell, although I'd say that being burned to death for having an opinion that diverges from the mob, was definitely a threatening blow to freedom and the rule of law in Hong Kong. so not a death knell but the security law is an exact implementation of the agreement that Britain and China created together. every step the China is taking its right there in the basic law as created by China and Britain in 1997. I think you can understand this situation because countries like Britain and America they have to say they disapprove, to conform to their populations expectations, but in reality every country's working towards the same goal. it's just that to admit this would cause the useful fantasy in each particular place to collapse. for now the best way to get to a better future globally is for different countries to have their own stories.
kmlx 6y ago
> While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring down its own irrelevance while nursing the self-inflicted gaping wound of Brexit. I tip my hat to Beijing, they sure did know when to strike. > It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. Just so that we're all on the same page: https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-threat-seize-hong-kong-day https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-th... > DENG Xiaoping threatened China could seize Hong Kong in a day, former British prime minister Lady Thatcher has revealed. The threat by the Chinese patriarch was contained in his famous warning that Beijing might take back the territory before 1997 at their September 1982 meeting in the Great Hall of the People, Lady Thatcher says in her memoirs, The Downing Street Years, to be published tomorrow. The threat is being used to try to block Governor Chris Patten's moves towards greater democracy in Hong Kong. ''He said that the Chinese could walk in and take Hong Kong back later today if they wanted to,'' says Lady Thatcher. ''I retorted that they could indeed do so; I could not stop them. But this would bring about Hong Kong's collapse. The world would then see what followed a change from British to Chinese rule.''

ralph84 6y ago

I thought China would wait to take Taiwan first, so they could limit resistance in Taiwan by saying "we'll let you have your own system like we did in Hong Kong." Now that China has reneged on Hong Kong, Taiwan won't believe them.

chrischen 6y ago
That's basically exactly what happened with the last presidential election. The pro-China (conservative) party was heavily favored to win and then suddenly the Hong Kong protests ignited and reminded Taiwanese about China and the pro-USA party (liberals) ended up winning in a landslide.
- Teknoman117 6y ago
  I hope we (the US) can clean up our act so we can go back to having at least some credibility in the world again. (other than just being rich and having a lot of guns) I'd love for us to be worthy of the praise we get from some places. I can't say that I've been particularly "proud" to say that I'm an American when I started travelling abroad a few years ago. Hard for people to miss though, I sound like a stereotypical Midwestern radio announcer. Well, maybe except for that one very plastered German guy who kept yelling at us for being English at Oktoberfest.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - yung0 6y ago
    "at least some credibility in the world again." Might have to go back about 80 years.
    - dang 6y ago
      We've banned this account for political and nationalistic flamewar. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

almost_usual 6y ago

It’s 2020 and humanity is really scared of democracy.

rbinv 6y ago
It's 2020 and humans are scared of humans.
draw_down 6y ago
Humanity, eh?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
koheripbal 6y ago
There are many forces out there that are actively trying to diminish the global public's respect for democracy. It involves slowly eroding people's respect for the core principles we always associated with democracy... The First Amendment? We don't need that since Hate speech shouldn't be protected - and there's the Paradox of Tolerance! Second Amendment? We don't need that - no population could ever hope to topple the military anyway! Judicial process? Who needs a court, when I can organize a mob to get stuff done? Besides, the courts are hopelessly corrupt rapists! Executive branch? The police are racist belligerents who should be defunded and removed, and the Military has a long history of war crimes! Legislative Branch? Oh, that decrepit thing? Votes aren't proportionate so the small states have all the power - controlled by racists. We need a revolution! US History? It's all based on genocide and slavery. That's all we should teach. Statues / monuments? We need to tear it all down. They were all racist slave owners. When you destroy everything people believe in - it's a lot easier to get them to embrace something more extremist.

archibaldJ 6y ago

As someone who lives inside China I just hope this will encourage more direct and indirect confrontations with the system that defines the current central government i.e. among the intellects and influentials in China, now that a pillar of the freedom of Chinese expression is on its way to unnatural erosion under the paradigm introduced by this new law unto Hong Kong, that of which used to be where grey areas of Chinese politics surface themselves without cease, and where parts of the contemporary Chinese history are still being played on record, untampered.

politicdone 6y ago
unlikely given that the shining example of freedom of expression was the crazy chaos in Hong Kong over the last 12 months, which saw people who use their freedom of speech to voice their dissent being assaulted and set on fire. hard to find many sympathizers for this in the mainland.... but easy for many in China to see hongkongers simply as unhappy about an economic reality where in the last 30 years China has far exceeded the growth of Hong Kong. instead of pouring their energy into useless Street protests the kids of Hong Kong should make some startup companies or move to Guangzhou and make their fortune in a place that's a little more affordable to live in with a lot more space.... still I bet it must feel so satisfying to be able to blame China for all their unhappiness. The only problem is these kids being used by forces they don't understand. their energy, momentum and potential has being directed towards this end. Even the end is a good thing, the creation of a more stable society, it's not what people realize. wouldn't it be in China's interest to create a chaotic situation in Hong Kong in order to increase the contrast between the successes of its own system and the failures of the Western model espoused Hong Kong, as well as to add momentum to calls to extend national laws to Hong Kong to make up for the long-overdue article 23?
koheripbal 6y ago
What is the incentive for someone to "confront" the system in China? It means imprisonment, career destruction, the destruction of their family's wealth and well-being, and possibly death. The way to change a belligerent governmental system isn't through direct confrontation unless you can literally mobilize a majority of the population - it is by changing it from within. Become part of the system, spread an ideology, and change it where you can. The protest mentality in Hong Kong just provided optical cover for Beijing to accelerate their plans to implement centralized governance. The peaceful protests had some positive impact, but directly confronting the Chinese government through violent protests in Hong Kong made things worse, not better.

vincvinc 6y ago

I know this is not on many people's radar right now, but I strongly believe the rise of Xi's authoritarian nationalism is the biggest story of this century (after global warming). And this is our generation's "Berlin wall moment". By itself, you might look at this law (after it's published) and not see anything bad. But in the greater context of Chinese policy choices of the last few years, this is nothing less than the signal to end democratic open society in another part of the world. This is not just about Hong Kong. It's about a small group of powerful people thinking they can create a new order where they can do whatever they want to their own people, their neighbors and the world. They take full advantage of the naivety and openness of our global open system while openly threatening anyone who dares speak out, be it individual Canadians or Australians, the Indian state, a twitch Streamer or a Hong Kong comedian. So, Is there anything we can do? some ideas... - call to boycott the Beijing 2022 Winter olympics - share the story of the Uyghurs. Today's news include proof that Uyghur women are being sterilized en masse: https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c - if a company does not list Taiwan as an independent country, they are in effect performing appeasement politics. Increase the cost of doing business with dictators by loudly calling out these companies. Don't be shy, they are getting much more pressure from the Chinese side. It is time to pick a side. - more importantly, do NOT tolerate any discrimination towards Chinese. It's immoral and increases support for the regime: https://twitter.com/jenjpan/status/1277664711325048832?s=21 https://twitter.com/jenjpan/status/1277664711325048832?s=21 ... at least, that's what I can come up with in 10 minutes. I'm sure there's much. We need to move the Overton window on this people, the longer we let this go on, the bigger the consequences will be.

ztratar 6y ago
Not sure why this is downvoted, so plz have an upvote!
- iliketosleep 6y ago
  Posts that are critical of China's gov. will automatically get downvotes from a particular subset of people.

amriksohata 6y ago

The people of Tibet, Taiwan and Hong Kong are all feeling the same about China and now add India to the list with the recent tiktok ban.

throwawy1391273 6y ago
> India to the list with the recent tiktok ban. LOL.You must be having some good weed down there.

quyleanh 6y ago

Besides the politic, I eager to see the moving of the global technology industries with these moving of China. Do hope the technology will go up in spite of war, ban...

rootsudo 6y ago

Removed from title is that it just passed and is going to be enforced going forth from July 1st. Less than 24 hours. This is key because July 1st used to be the annual HK march since 1997, or the hand over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_1_July_marches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_1_July_marches

yibg 6y ago

This makes me sad. I loved Hong Kong the way it was and had held out some hope that it can. stay more or less that way for a while. I knew of course that Hong Kong had a huge uphill battle. But was still waiting for that miracle.

beatle_sauce 6y ago

The core of the communist party follows an unambiguous agenda. John Garnaut described this very well in his speech "Engineers of the Soul" https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in

ngcc_hk 6y ago

The key is still we do NOT have a copy of the law on us. That is how dead our system is. This is the end. See you on the other side.