8 ms·

Discount chains are thriving, but what do they do to poor communities?

baggy_trough 6y ago
They help them when few others will.
supernova87a 6y ago
Certainly the safety and operating conditions for workers in these kinds of stores needs to be enforced, and companies penalized when they violate workplace rules or create an unsafe environment. But the larger issue is that these kinds of stores are not "doing" something to communities. They are the reflection of (and maybe focal point for) what has already been done -- communities that are hollowed out of industries that used to sustain people who now don't have a lot of opportunities and can only afford such stores, or where it's too unprofitable or dangerous to sustain a traditional full service store. If you want a real assessment of this country's prosperity (or lack of it for many people) -- or simply what happens when an economy is no longer in baby-boomer growth mode -- look to places like this where people who have been left behind in the "economic boom" have to shop because they have no other choices. Look to where the poor have to work/shop/live for the indicators of lack of leadership at a national/state level who don't understand that a single rising GDP number (for corporations) doesn't mean that all is good. And by the way, don't blame the companies fully for it either. They just fill in the gaps where our ineffective governments have abdicated their responsibilities / role to take care of citizens. And the problem with companies filling in the gaps is that they have no real moral values or long-term responsibilities -- that's not their nature. They blow with the wind, or when enough public pressure causes them to have to do something -- until the next quarter. Don't take the easy route and blame Dollar General. We're the dealers, they're just playing the cards.
- 99_00 6y ago
  Are the poor worse off now than they were during "baby-boomer growth mode"? Also, what is "baby-boomer growth mode"?
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    Maybe in an absolute material sense they are not worse off now. But most certainly the opportunity to advance and achieve relative changes in class and wealth are not as positive as they once were in the US. Baby boomer growth mode was when the needs and growth of post-war America meant that many, many people could have well-paying middle class jobs that were a source of great economic mobility and improvement across the USA. It was also an era with far less income inequality than now. When your grandparents talk about needing to show initiative and go out there and find opportunity, remind them that they grew up in an era where pretty much anyone with a heartbeat could earn enough at a medium skilled job to buy a home by age 40. Not so much now.
    - 99_00 6y ago
      >the opportunity to advance and achieve relative changes in class and wealth are not as positive as they once were in the US When were opportunities for poor black people better and what metric do you use for this comparison?
    - im3w1l 6y ago
      Building a primitive shelter doesn't take a lot of labor, can be done in weeks to months of time. Given that, it's absurd how hard housing is to come by.
      - me_againnnnnn 6y ago
        People working for 30 years to pay for something that is built in weeks is the entire problem. The price of land has to drop across the board for any improvements in society to happen. Everything eventually leads back to high rent.
  - csharptwdec19 6y ago
    I think to some extent they are... Dollar stores I see more as a symptom and perpetuation of the problem poor people face today. (Conspicuous consumption.) When I was growing up, my parents had Air fans that they purchased YEARS before I was born. They're still working. Compare and contrast, I have a fan that only lasted 2 summers before burning out. Or, the knife set my parents got as a wedding gift and still use, compared to the set I got 2 years ago that already have pitting and the like. Before, poor people had access to good, quality used goods that could last. Now, they are stuck in the prisoner's dilemma; Either buying a more expensive used thing from goodwill/etc and see how long it lasts, or buying the cheap thing and knowing it's already on borrowed time.
lopmotr 6y ago
It's hard to find the point of the argument other than "poor people shouldn't be allowed to buy cheap stuff." These shops cause poverty by being cheaper than traditional chain stores and attracting robbers who kill staff? I think people who have their life in order are often materialistic and value long-lived possessions. They see buying this "cheap Chinese crap destined for the landfill" as a sign of failure at life on the part of the buyers. But it's hard to blame poor people for behaving like poor people so somehow this article blames the shop.
- fzeroracer 6y ago
  To sum up the article: 1. Discount chains come in, proceed to wipe out all other local stores through economy of scale. 2. Discount chains become the only option for people to buy food or general necessities. Said food is often low quality and unhealthy. 3. Said chains also invest little in security, pay little and return little to the local community. Isn't it a failure of capitalism when there's only one store providing everything you need and results in a net negative to the community over a long period of time? It creates a defacto local monopoly. And when that discount chain becomes unprofitable or leaves, what do you think will happen?
  - lopmotr 6y ago
    2. is just people exercising their freedom. Unless you want to disallow poor people access to products that rich people can have, or make them pay more! 3. Technically it may be true but it's obviously not an honest argument because they wouldn't blame the victim for other crimes. If that argument were valid, it'd also be the workers' fault for working in such a dangerous place and allowing crime to be committed (against themselves). Why isn't their criticism should be directed at the staff instead? The staff are just there to make money, same as the business is. Both are attracting crime.
jaspax 6y ago
If you read the opening section of the article, the writer clearly exposits that more traditional retail stores closed down as the cities were subject to deindustrialization and suburban flight. The dollar stores are what's left. And there we have our answer: what discount chains do to poor communities is act as the only provider of goods. But the headline and the general tone of the article is desperately trying to make it seem as if the dollar store is somehow the cause of urban decay (especially the middle section of the article, which tries really hard to blame the dollar store for the fact that it gets robbed). One of the clearer examples of the headline and tone trying to sell the writer's preferred narrative even when the actual facts presented undermine that narrative.
- nrp 6y ago
  I started reading the article with the same viewpoint you have, but I found the arguments reasonably persuasive. Dollar General and similar are willing to sell goods (apparently profitably) to communities that would otherwise have access to little to nothing locally. This is good. At the same time, they are unwilling or unable to create an environment that is safe for the folks in the communities working or shopping there. The key question left unaddressed in the rather long article is whether it's economically infeasible to make the stores safe, or whether it's callousness and profit optimization on the parts of the companies. "Shrink" is of course accounted for in the economics, but not worker and customer safety, which is externalized as violence and loss in the communities.
  - lopmotr 6y ago
    Isn't it the police's responsibility to prevent violent crime? Perhaps they just need more policing. How does a shop prevent a person from shooting somebody else in its carpark? Even then, won't they just shoot each other in the street outside the carpark instead? Without the shop, won't they shoot each other at home? It's hard to see that it's causing crime rather than just being the place where inevitable crime happens more often.
    - chii 6y ago
legitster 6y ago
>The chains’ executives are candid about what is driving their growth: widening income inequality and the decline of many city neighborhoods and entire swaths of the country. Todd Vasos, the C.E.O. of Dollar General, told the Wall Street Journal in 2017, “The economy is continuing to create more of our core customer.” This is a terrific article, but I hate the framing that the stores are the problem. They are clearly filling a vacuum left by cheap real estate and low wages. There is some evidence that the stores help accelerate the decline - but the exact same business model is present in a Daiso store without it ravaging Japan. In nice coastal cities, the obvious problem is lack of zoned housing. But it's easy to overlook that for most of America, it's effectively over-zoned. We have huge sprawling cities and towns that have been hollowed out by population flight. In my parent's town, half of the buildings are derelict. Spreading thin what would otherwise be a vibrant business district. The deed holders have long since vanished without paying taxes.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  > We have huge sprawling cities and towns that have been hollowed out by population flight. In my parent's town, half of the buildings are derelict. Spreading thin what would otherwise be a vibrant business district. This is mostly a policy failure due to the failures to create regional government in most metro areas that is updated to match the actual metro area. Instead, we now have individual municipalities and suburbs duking it out for the same pie. Suburb A could afford to keep tax rates low because it had brand new infrastructure that didn't need much maintenance compared to the city, until it also needed to replace its infrastructure at the end of its lifecycle, at which point Suburb B now has the spanking new infrastructure with low maintenance costs and low tax rates, until it doesn't and Suburb C does, rinse and repeat.
chrisco255 6y ago
“The likelihood of a crime occurring depends on three elements: a motivated offender, a vulnerable victim, and the absence of a capable guardian,” Can someone please telegraph this quote to the Defund the Police movement?
ggm 6y ago
If dollar stores do anything, they re-inforce the poverty trap they exemplify: Once your community is serviced by dollar stores, it is hard to persuade capital investment for different types of stores, because they want to avoid the association. Dollar stores don't cause poverty but they make it harder to move on from. I live in a former working-class low-rent suburb, and the displacement of dollar stores with real stores followed on from gentrification: it did not lead. The dollar stores that persist are in dark corners. (btw I am part of the gentrification problem: re-capitalising the locality is displacing people with less income) Dollar store poverty trap includes being forced to re-purchase badly made cheap things, and live with hacks and bugs, because you cannot afford the well made rational alternative. The belief that all goods in a type are substitutable is simply wrong. (probably a strawman) -good wine has qualities beyond getting you drunk, cheap wine only meets the latter goal. SONY is not COBY.
- ReptileMan 6y ago
  You cannot have freedom of settlement, regulation of construction and poor people not getting the short end of the stick. Unfortunately the world is trying it's best to fit itself into as few megapolicies as possible. With Bangkok converting Thailand to something resembling a city state. And the insane productivity of cities means that this is potential endgame for all countries.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > You cannot have freedom of settlement, regulation of construction and poor people not getting the short end of the stick. Sure, but that's just an obvious corollary of the more fundamental observation "you cannot have poor people not getting the short end of the stick". That's what we mean when we call them "poor".
DavidPeiffer 6y ago
Tangentially related, but if anyone is interested in some manufacturing background on some products for dollar stores, check out Poorly Made in China. [1] The author goes through the process of an American business owner attempting to manufacture soap in China, for distribution in US general stores. The owner was trying to stay compliant with all the laws, and trying to fulfill the contract, but faced immense challenges. Ingredient swaps without notice, labeling issues, bottle consistency issues, etc. It really opened my eyes to the quality side of some commodity-type products. We, as a society, need to become more aware of the supply chain of products we buy. When I mention Amazon comingles inventory, most people are shocked. They think Amazon Prime means Amazon has oversight and a motivation to control the supply chain from the manufacturer to the end user, which is simply not the case. It's certainly challenging to figure out where stuff comes from, and suppliers are constantly changing, so you'll probably only be able to trace back 1 layer of manufacturing. Doing so helps give confidence in what you're buying. [1] https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Poorly+Made+in+China%3A+An+Insider%27s+Account+of+the+China+Production+Game%2C+Revised+and+Updated+Edition-p-9780470928073 https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Poorly+Made+in+China%3A+An+Insid...
chrisco255 6y ago
I grew up in a rural community that was at one time nearly a 30-45 minute drive from any major department store. Dollar General stores have filled in the gap and people in my hometown genuinely enjoy shopping there. It's convenient, it's close, it's got all the basics, it's cheap. It's easy. It works quite well for these smaller communities that don't justify a Wal-Mart or Target sized department store.
knzhou 6y ago
This article reminds me of the time the city of Philadelphia tried to ban corner stores from installing bulletproof glass to protect themselves in robberies. Or the numerous education reformers trying to ban remedial classes by making all classes nominally "honors". Bulletproof glass, remedial classes, and dollar stores reflect societal problems, so outside observers, in their great wisdom and compassion, decide they must be the cause of the problems. They campaign to get rid of them, completely oblivious to the fact that this would only hurt the people they supposedly care about, while doing absolutely nothing to address the real problems. Their injunctions are not even self-consistent: the dollar store is bad for not having the resources to prevent theft, while the corner store is bad for trying to.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > Bulletproof glass, remedial classes, and dollar stores reflect societal problems, so outside observers, in their great wisdom and compassion, decide they must be the cause of the problems. This is related to the phenomenon wherein someone warns about an obvious failure coming up in the future, nobody believes in it, it happens, and all the blame "logically" falls on the person who sounded the warning. Why did they want the failure to occur in the first place?
- tropdrop 6y ago
  This article is not talking about the woes of Ma and Pa shops trying to install bullet proof glass. It's talking about exactly the opposite, with mayors of cities like Dayton asking large corporations - Dollar General and Family Dollar - to please go ahead and install bullet proof glass so that less employees and customers die on their premises (i.e. the call for more Security Guards). The chains’ executives are candid about what is driving their growth: widening income inequality and the decline of many city neighborhoods and entire swaths of the country. Todd Vasos, the C.E.O. of Dollar General, told the Wall Street Journal in 2017, “The economy is continuing to create more of our core customer.” The bottom line is Dollar General knows exactly what communities to target - already ailing ones: This correlation is not a coincidence, according to a 2018 research brief by the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, which advocates for small businesses. The stores undercut traditional grocery stores by having few employees, often only three per store, and paying them little. “While dollar stores sometimes fill a need in cash-strapped communities, growing evidence suggests these stores are not merely a byproduct of economic distress,” the brief reported. “[Sometimes] they’re a cause of it." But just because you didn't start the fire does not mean you have carte blanche in adding gasoline to the flames.
ReptileMan 6y ago
TLDR: Dollar stores are the only targets, they are also deliberately kept soft targets by management, corporate management don't want to pay for security. The article somehow absolves (as in doesn't mention) local municipal government of having somehow influence over the crime and security of an area. Just having poverty doesn't mean that a neighborhood should be dangerous and crime ridden.
TheDong 6y ago
I find it interesting to consider the different affordances of society that have lead to dollar stores and convenience stores being a lower-class destination in America, while convenience stores in Japan are frequented by people from all social classes and seem to serve a real niche. The main difference I can think of is how cars and public transit are viewed and differ. In America, most people, excluding the poor and those in dense cities, have cars. The middle and upper class have ended up in "suburbia" in many parts of the country, where they've sprawled enough that any activity mandates taking the car. Those in this class all have lawns, and thus houses must spread enough that densely packed city blocks are really only for the lower class. This is in stark contrast to Japan. Trains are taken by people of all economic class, and neighborhoods are generally a little more dense. Cars are not the everyday staple of life. I think that difference leads to the need for a nearby corner-store that serves the small needs of life. The 6-pack of beer, the toothpaste and other small toiletries, the bread for breakfast. There's clearly this niche of more frequent smaller "neighborhood" stores in Japan. Why does it end up translating so poorly here, even in larger cities where we have public transit (though significantly worse) and we have relatively high density, relatively walkable, cities?
- tathougies 6y ago
  There's a lot of assumptions here. I'm not sure they're true. (1) Cities are getting richer and richer. More and more rich people are living in the cities, in dense urban environment. This is why America's urban housing stock is so expensive (2) Most poor people in America have cars. > Why does it end up translating so poorly here, even in larger cities where we have public transit (though significantly worse) and we have relatively high density, relatively walkable, cities? In large cities there are convenience stores everywhere?
- tkgally 6y ago
  Long-term resident of Japan here. I agree with what you say about public transportation. I'm always struck, when I return to the Los Angeles area on visits and go around by city bus, how overwhelmingly working class the bus ridership is. In Japan, especially in the urban areas, nearly everyone takes buses and trains. The Japanese parallel to the dollar stores described in the New Yorker article is not convenience stores, which are as you state, but hundred-yen shops. They tend to be in low-rent locations, they pay low salaries, and the clientele tends toward the working-class side. But the parallel doesn't go very far beyond that, as the problems of crime, food deserts, neighborhood decay, etc. described in the article are much less serious here (if they exist at all) than in the U.S.
firloop 6y ago
Off-topic but I went to share the URL to this article in iOS Safari, and was surprised that the URL I shared was on a completely different origin (propublica.org). Now, that link appears to be the same story on ProPublica’s site, but that was pretty jarring; had no idea that browsers respect changing share links to entirely different domains.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cheesecracker 6y ago
"While dollar stores sometimes fill a need in cash-strapped communities, growing evidence suggests these stores are not merely a byproduct of economic distress,” the brief reported. “They’re a cause of it.”" Then kindly provide some of that "growing evidence", rather than a bunch of anecdotes.
charliebrownau 6y ago
Ironically overpriced homes and high wages effect Newyork which is filled with Commies Socialists Jews and blacks Yet in Japan , dollar stores are doing well and they actually sell stuff made in Japan for Japanese and dont stock 100% of it with cheap plastic junk from China made by USD$1-2 hour slave commie labor
mudlus 6y ago
The problem is disparity, a symptom is dollar stores, the cause is greed, classism, and racism. The cure? Democratic socialism and separating money and state.
TheMagicHorsey 6y ago
This is a bullshit article, not backed by data, but backed by the agenda of the journalist. When there is no Dollar General, the situation for poor residents is not better. It's worse. The cheap prices seem like they don't mean much to this yuppie moron journalist, but they are critical for families that live paycheck to paycheck. This idiot thinks urban economics are driven from the retail sector ... he basically thinks the horse nourishes itself from its asshole. In truth, there has to be some economic activity in the city to drive the consumer spending which in turn drives retail. Dollar General and its ilk cannot simply create a healthy city by paying its workers more, even though this dumbshit journalist thinks so. Does that idiot theory even pass the most basic smell test. I'm so sick of this anti-market rhetoric in America. Every ill in society is in some roundabout way placed at the feet of the market and companies. If companies are so bad, we'd expect to see great happiness in places that have no corporations. In fact, its the f'in opposite. I actually do work in rural India. When its just "mom and pop" stores in a village the people are pretty much destitute. When corporations are present, incomes go up, goods and services improve ... its just common sense. This idea that urban retailers somehow create urban decay is like a freshman Marxist take. How does this garbage get printed in newspapers in America? And BTW, there are many security measures that stores can take to protect their employees and merchandise, but I can guarantee you this idiot journalist won't like them. They aren't pretty. Armed guards in stores and bullet proof glass, and merchandise under lock and key is not what consumers want.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  > If companies are so bad, we'd expect to see great happiness in places that have no corporations. In fact, its [the] opposite. I actually do work in rural India. When its just "mom and pop" stores in a village the people are pretty much destitute. When corporations are present, incomes go up, goods and services improve This is actually a very nice point, thanks for mentioning it!
aliante 6y ago
Dollar Stores exemplify the extreme mediocrity of retail in America. So many products are more expensive at the grocery stores compared to dollar stores. I'm upper middle class and I shop at dollar stores because everything from envelopes to pens to bags of chips is cheaper at them.
wiseleo 6y ago
I am confused... Dollar General and Family Dollar are not really dollar stores. They have "dollar" in their name, but the prices are comparable to other supermarkets. I just looked at their weekly ads and it could have been any other mainstream supermarket with similar pricing. Yet the article only mentions Dollar Tree in tangential context by saying they locate predominantly in suburban areas, which implies lower crime. While Family Dollar is technically owned by Dollar Tree, it is not integrated and functionally a failed acquisition. Dollar General is not affiliated although Family Dollar attempted to acquire it. DollarTree, on the other hand, is a true dollar store. I shop there often and it's my preferred choice. In terms of clientele... Whole Foods (Amazon)/Sprouts/Nob Hill (Raley's)/Trader Joe's/Harris Teeter/ Boutiques - elite Safeway (Albertsons)/Lucky (Savemart)/Publix/Kroger/Raley's/Walmart - mainstream Dollar General/Family Dollar - confused "dollar" stores that are not dollar stores Food Maxx (Savemart)/Foods Co (Kroger)/Winco/Grocery Outlet - bulk shopping outside Costco DollarTree/99 Cents Only etc. - true dollar stores for shopping while broke or not considering status Convenience stores/Corner stores - terrible places to shop. Given choice, Dollar Tree always beats Dollar General and corner stores for availability of healthier foods at a lower price except produce. Fun observation: Kroger's Foods Co San Francisco store is probably the city's largest liquor store. It has armed security guards. All liquor is at front of store. Source: I maintain POS equipment for all major grocery chains. Dollar Tree is not one of them, I just shop there.
- orhmeh09 6y ago
  Where are these Trader Joe’s stores? In Washington it seems more affordable than Safeway and its customers not remarkably “elite.”
  - wiseleo 6y ago
    TJ's packaging tends to be smaller for produce. I wouldn't want to shop there. Price per ounce is significantly higher.

They help them when few others will.

Certainly the safety and operating conditions for workers in these kinds of stores needs to be enforced, and companies penalized when they violate workplace rules or create an unsafe environment. But the larger issue is that these kinds of stores are not "doing" something to communities. They are the reflection of (and maybe focal point for) what has already been done -- communities that are hollowed out of industries that used to sustain people who now don't have a lot of opportunities and can only afford such stores, or where it's too unprofitable or dangerous to sustain a traditional full service store. If you want a real assessment of this country's prosperity (or lack of it for many people) -- or simply what happens when an economy is no longer in baby-boomer growth mode -- look to places like this where people who have been left behind in the "economic boom" have to shop because they have no other choices. Look to where the poor have to work/shop/live for the indicators of lack of leadership at a national/state level who don't understand that a single rising GDP number (for corporations) doesn't mean that all is good. And by the way, don't blame the companies fully for it either. They just fill in the gaps where our ineffective governments have abdicated their responsibilities / role to take care of citizens. And the problem with companies filling in the gaps is that they have no real moral values or long-term responsibilities -- that's not their nature. They blow with the wind, or when enough public pressure causes them to have to do something -- until the next quarter. Don't take the easy route and blame Dollar General. We're the dealers, they're just playing the cards.

99_00 6y ago
Are the poor worse off now than they were during "baby-boomer growth mode"? Also, what is "baby-boomer growth mode"?
- supernova87a 6y ago
  Maybe in an absolute material sense they are not worse off now. But most certainly the opportunity to advance and achieve relative changes in class and wealth are not as positive as they once were in the US. Baby boomer growth mode was when the needs and growth of post-war America meant that many, many people could have well-paying middle class jobs that were a source of great economic mobility and improvement across the USA. It was also an era with far less income inequality than now. When your grandparents talk about needing to show initiative and go out there and find opportunity, remind them that they grew up in an era where pretty much anyone with a heartbeat could earn enough at a medium skilled job to buy a home by age 40. Not so much now.
  - 99_00 6y ago
    >the opportunity to advance and achieve relative changes in class and wealth are not as positive as they once were in the US When were opportunities for poor black people better and what metric do you use for this comparison?
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    Building a primitive shelter doesn't take a lot of labor, can be done in weeks to months of time. Given that, it's absurd how hard housing is to come by.
    - me_againnnnnn 6y ago
      People working for 30 years to pay for something that is built in weeks is the entire problem. The price of land has to drop across the board for any improvements in society to happen. Everything eventually leads back to high rent.
- csharptwdec19 6y ago
  I think to some extent they are... Dollar stores I see more as a symptom and perpetuation of the problem poor people face today. (Conspicuous consumption.) When I was growing up, my parents had Air fans that they purchased YEARS before I was born. They're still working. Compare and contrast, I have a fan that only lasted 2 summers before burning out. Or, the knife set my parents got as a wedding gift and still use, compared to the set I got 2 years ago that already have pitting and the like. Before, poor people had access to good, quality used goods that could last. Now, they are stuck in the prisoner's dilemma; Either buying a more expensive used thing from goodwill/etc and see how long it lasts, or buying the cheap thing and knowing it's already on borrowed time.

lopmotr 6y ago

It's hard to find the point of the argument other than "poor people shouldn't be allowed to buy cheap stuff." These shops cause poverty by being cheaper than traditional chain stores and attracting robbers who kill staff? I think people who have their life in order are often materialistic and value long-lived possessions. They see buying this "cheap Chinese crap destined for the landfill" as a sign of failure at life on the part of the buyers. But it's hard to blame poor people for behaving like poor people so somehow this article blames the shop.

fzeroracer 6y ago
To sum up the article: 1. Discount chains come in, proceed to wipe out all other local stores through economy of scale. 2. Discount chains become the only option for people to buy food or general necessities. Said food is often low quality and unhealthy. 3. Said chains also invest little in security, pay little and return little to the local community. Isn't it a failure of capitalism when there's only one store providing everything you need and results in a net negative to the community over a long period of time? It creates a defacto local monopoly. And when that discount chain becomes unprofitable or leaves, what do you think will happen?
- lopmotr 6y ago
  2. is just people exercising their freedom. Unless you want to disallow poor people access to products that rich people can have, or make them pay more! 3. Technically it may be true but it's obviously not an honest argument because they wouldn't blame the victim for other crimes. If that argument were valid, it'd also be the workers' fault for working in such a dangerous place and allowing crime to be committed (against themselves). Why isn't their criticism should be directed at the staff instead? The staff are just there to make money, same as the business is. Both are attracting crime.

jaspax 6y ago

If you read the opening section of the article, the writer clearly exposits that more traditional retail stores closed down as the cities were subject to deindustrialization and suburban flight. The dollar stores are what's left. And there we have our answer: what discount chains do to poor communities is act as the only provider of goods. But the headline and the general tone of the article is desperately trying to make it seem as if the dollar store is somehow the cause of urban decay (especially the middle section of the article, which tries really hard to blame the dollar store for the fact that it gets robbed). One of the clearer examples of the headline and tone trying to sell the writer's preferred narrative even when the actual facts presented undermine that narrative.

nrp 6y ago
I started reading the article with the same viewpoint you have, but I found the arguments reasonably persuasive. Dollar General and similar are willing to sell goods (apparently profitably) to communities that would otherwise have access to little to nothing locally. This is good. At the same time, they are unwilling or unable to create an environment that is safe for the folks in the communities working or shopping there. The key question left unaddressed in the rather long article is whether it's economically infeasible to make the stores safe, or whether it's callousness and profit optimization on the parts of the companies. "Shrink" is of course accounted for in the economics, but not worker and customer safety, which is externalized as violence and loss in the communities.
- lopmotr 6y ago
  Isn't it the police's responsibility to prevent violent crime? Perhaps they just need more policing. How does a shop prevent a person from shooting somebody else in its carpark? Even then, won't they just shoot each other in the street outside the carpark instead? Without the shop, won't they shoot each other at home? It's hard to see that it's causing crime rather than just being the place where inevitable crime happens more often.
  - chii 6y ago

legitster 6y ago

>The chains’ executives are candid about what is driving their growth: widening income inequality and the decline of many city neighborhoods and entire swaths of the country. Todd Vasos, the C.E.O. of Dollar General, told the Wall Street Journal in 2017, “The economy is continuing to create more of our core customer.” This is a terrific article, but I hate the framing that the stores are the problem. They are clearly filling a vacuum left by cheap real estate and low wages. There is some evidence that the stores help accelerate the decline - but the exact same business model is present in a Daiso store without it ravaging Japan. In nice coastal cities, the obvious problem is lack of zoned housing. But it's easy to overlook that for most of America, it's effectively over-zoned. We have huge sprawling cities and towns that have been hollowed out by population flight. In my parent's town, half of the buildings are derelict. Spreading thin what would otherwise be a vibrant business district. The deed holders have long since vanished without paying taxes.

bobthepanda 6y ago
> We have huge sprawling cities and towns that have been hollowed out by population flight. In my parent's town, half of the buildings are derelict. Spreading thin what would otherwise be a vibrant business district. This is mostly a policy failure due to the failures to create regional government in most metro areas that is updated to match the actual metro area. Instead, we now have individual municipalities and suburbs duking it out for the same pie. Suburb A could afford to keep tax rates low because it had brand new infrastructure that didn't need much maintenance compared to the city, until it also needed to replace its infrastructure at the end of its lifecycle, at which point Suburb B now has the spanking new infrastructure with low maintenance costs and low tax rates, until it doesn't and Suburb C does, rinse and repeat.

chrisco255 6y ago

“The likelihood of a crime occurring depends on three elements: a motivated offender, a vulnerable victim, and the absence of a capable guardian,” Can someone please telegraph this quote to the Defund the Police movement?

ggm 6y ago

If dollar stores do anything, they re-inforce the poverty trap they exemplify: Once your community is serviced by dollar stores, it is hard to persuade capital investment for different types of stores, because they want to avoid the association. Dollar stores don't cause poverty but they make it harder to move on from. I live in a former working-class low-rent suburb, and the displacement of dollar stores with real stores followed on from gentrification: it did not lead. The dollar stores that persist are in dark corners. (btw I am part of the gentrification problem: re-capitalising the locality is displacing people with less income) Dollar store poverty trap includes being forced to re-purchase badly made cheap things, and live with hacks and bugs, because you cannot afford the well made rational alternative. The belief that all goods in a type are substitutable is simply wrong. (probably a strawman) -good wine has qualities beyond getting you drunk, cheap wine only meets the latter goal. SONY is not COBY.

ReptileMan 6y ago
You cannot have freedom of settlement, regulation of construction and poor people not getting the short end of the stick. Unfortunately the world is trying it's best to fit itself into as few megapolicies as possible. With Bangkok converting Thailand to something resembling a city state. And the insane productivity of cities means that this is potential endgame for all countries.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > You cannot have freedom of settlement, regulation of construction and poor people not getting the short end of the stick. Sure, but that's just an obvious corollary of the more fundamental observation "you cannot have poor people not getting the short end of the stick". That's what we mean when we call them "poor".

DavidPeiffer 6y ago

Tangentially related, but if anyone is interested in some manufacturing background on some products for dollar stores, check out Poorly Made in China. [1] The author goes through the process of an American business owner attempting to manufacture soap in China, for distribution in US general stores. The owner was trying to stay compliant with all the laws, and trying to fulfill the contract, but faced immense challenges. Ingredient swaps without notice, labeling issues, bottle consistency issues, etc. It really opened my eyes to the quality side of some commodity-type products. We, as a society, need to become more aware of the supply chain of products we buy. When I mention Amazon comingles inventory, most people are shocked. They think Amazon Prime means Amazon has oversight and a motivation to control the supply chain from the manufacturer to the end user, which is simply not the case. It's certainly challenging to figure out where stuff comes from, and suppliers are constantly changing, so you'll probably only be able to trace back 1 layer of manufacturing. Doing so helps give confidence in what you're buying. [1] https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Poorly+Made+in+China%3A+An+Insider%27s+Account+of+the+China+Production+Game%2C+Revised+and+Updated+Edition-p-9780470928073 https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Poorly+Made+in+China%3A+An+Insid...

chrisco255 6y ago

I grew up in a rural community that was at one time nearly a 30-45 minute drive from any major department store. Dollar General stores have filled in the gap and people in my hometown genuinely enjoy shopping there. It's convenient, it's close, it's got all the basics, it's cheap. It's easy. It works quite well for these smaller communities that don't justify a Wal-Mart or Target sized department store.

knzhou 6y ago

This article reminds me of the time the city of Philadelphia tried to ban corner stores from installing bulletproof glass to protect themselves in robberies. Or the numerous education reformers trying to ban remedial classes by making all classes nominally "honors". Bulletproof glass, remedial classes, and dollar stores reflect societal problems, so outside observers, in their great wisdom and compassion, decide they must be the cause of the problems. They campaign to get rid of them, completely oblivious to the fact that this would only hurt the people they supposedly care about, while doing absolutely nothing to address the real problems. Their injunctions are not even self-consistent: the dollar store is bad for not having the resources to prevent theft, while the corner store is bad for trying to.

thaumasiotes 6y ago
> Bulletproof glass, remedial classes, and dollar stores reflect societal problems, so outside observers, in their great wisdom and compassion, decide they must be the cause of the problems. This is related to the phenomenon wherein someone warns about an obvious failure coming up in the future, nobody believes in it, it happens, and all the blame "logically" falls on the person who sounded the warning. Why did they want the failure to occur in the first place?
tropdrop 6y ago
This article is not talking about the woes of Ma and Pa shops trying to install bullet proof glass. It's talking about exactly the opposite, with mayors of cities like Dayton asking large corporations - Dollar General and Family Dollar - to please go ahead and install bullet proof glass so that less employees and customers die on their premises (i.e. the call for more Security Guards). The chains’ executives are candid about what is driving their growth: widening income inequality and the decline of many city neighborhoods and entire swaths of the country. Todd Vasos, the C.E.O. of Dollar General, told the Wall Street Journal in 2017, “The economy is continuing to create more of our core customer.” The bottom line is Dollar General knows exactly what communities to target - already ailing ones: This correlation is not a coincidence, according to a 2018 research brief by the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, which advocates for small businesses. The stores undercut traditional grocery stores by having few employees, often only three per store, and paying them little. “While dollar stores sometimes fill a need in cash-strapped communities, growing evidence suggests these stores are not merely a byproduct of economic distress,” the brief reported. “[Sometimes] they’re a cause of it." But just because you didn't start the fire does not mean you have carte blanche in adding gasoline to the flames.

ReptileMan 6y ago

TLDR: Dollar stores are the only targets, they are also deliberately kept soft targets by management, corporate management don't want to pay for security. The article somehow absolves (as in doesn't mention) local municipal government of having somehow influence over the crime and security of an area. Just having poverty doesn't mean that a neighborhood should be dangerous and crime ridden.

TheDong 6y ago

I find it interesting to consider the different affordances of society that have lead to dollar stores and convenience stores being a lower-class destination in America, while convenience stores in Japan are frequented by people from all social classes and seem to serve a real niche. The main difference I can think of is how cars and public transit are viewed and differ. In America, most people, excluding the poor and those in dense cities, have cars. The middle and upper class have ended up in "suburbia" in many parts of the country, where they've sprawled enough that any activity mandates taking the car. Those in this class all have lawns, and thus houses must spread enough that densely packed city blocks are really only for the lower class. This is in stark contrast to Japan. Trains are taken by people of all economic class, and neighborhoods are generally a little more dense. Cars are not the everyday staple of life. I think that difference leads to the need for a nearby corner-store that serves the small needs of life. The 6-pack of beer, the toothpaste and other small toiletries, the bread for breakfast. There's clearly this niche of more frequent smaller "neighborhood" stores in Japan. Why does it end up translating so poorly here, even in larger cities where we have public transit (though significantly worse) and we have relatively high density, relatively walkable, cities?

tathougies 6y ago
There's a lot of assumptions here. I'm not sure they're true. (1) Cities are getting richer and richer. More and more rich people are living in the cities, in dense urban environment. This is why America's urban housing stock is so expensive (2) Most poor people in America have cars. > Why does it end up translating so poorly here, even in larger cities where we have public transit (though significantly worse) and we have relatively high density, relatively walkable, cities? In large cities there are convenience stores everywhere?
tkgally 6y ago
Long-term resident of Japan here. I agree with what you say about public transportation. I'm always struck, when I return to the Los Angeles area on visits and go around by city bus, how overwhelmingly working class the bus ridership is. In Japan, especially in the urban areas, nearly everyone takes buses and trains. The Japanese parallel to the dollar stores described in the New Yorker article is not convenience stores, which are as you state, but hundred-yen shops. They tend to be in low-rent locations, they pay low salaries, and the clientele tends toward the working-class side. But the parallel doesn't go very far beyond that, as the problems of crime, food deserts, neighborhood decay, etc. described in the article are much less serious here (if they exist at all) than in the U.S.

firloop 6y ago

Off-topic but I went to share the URL to this article in iOS Safari, and was surprised that the URL I shared was on a completely different origin (propublica.org). Now, that link appears to be the same story on ProPublica’s site, but that was pretty jarring; had no idea that browsers respect changing share links to entirely different domains.

deleted 6y ago

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cheesecracker 6y ago

"While dollar stores sometimes fill a need in cash-strapped communities, growing evidence suggests these stores are not merely a byproduct of economic distress,” the brief reported. “They’re a cause of it.”" Then kindly provide some of that "growing evidence", rather than a bunch of anecdotes.

charliebrownau 6y ago

Ironically overpriced homes and high wages effect Newyork which is filled with Commies Socialists Jews and blacks Yet in Japan , dollar stores are doing well and they actually sell stuff made in Japan for Japanese and dont stock 100% of it with cheap plastic junk from China made by USD$1-2 hour slave commie labor

mudlus 6y ago

The problem is disparity, a symptom is dollar stores, the cause is greed, classism, and racism. The cure? Democratic socialism and separating money and state.

TheMagicHorsey 6y ago

This is a bullshit article, not backed by data, but backed by the agenda of the journalist. When there is no Dollar General, the situation for poor residents is not better. It's worse. The cheap prices seem like they don't mean much to this yuppie moron journalist, but they are critical for families that live paycheck to paycheck. This idiot thinks urban economics are driven from the retail sector ... he basically thinks the horse nourishes itself from its asshole. In truth, there has to be some economic activity in the city to drive the consumer spending which in turn drives retail. Dollar General and its ilk cannot simply create a healthy city by paying its workers more, even though this dumbshit journalist thinks so. Does that idiot theory even pass the most basic smell test. I'm so sick of this anti-market rhetoric in America. Every ill in society is in some roundabout way placed at the feet of the market and companies. If companies are so bad, we'd expect to see great happiness in places that have no corporations. In fact, its the f'in opposite. I actually do work in rural India. When its just "mom and pop" stores in a village the people are pretty much destitute. When corporations are present, incomes go up, goods and services improve ... its just common sense. This idea that urban retailers somehow create urban decay is like a freshman Marxist take. How does this garbage get printed in newspapers in America? And BTW, there are many security measures that stores can take to protect their employees and merchandise, but I can guarantee you this idiot journalist won't like them. They aren't pretty. Armed guards in stores and bullet proof glass, and merchandise under lock and key is not what consumers want.

zozbot234 6y ago
> If companies are so bad, we'd expect to see great happiness in places that have no corporations. In fact, its [the] opposite. I actually do work in rural India. When its just "mom and pop" stores in a village the people are pretty much destitute. When corporations are present, incomes go up, goods and services improve This is actually a very nice point, thanks for mentioning it!

aliante 6y ago

Dollar Stores exemplify the extreme mediocrity of retail in America. So many products are more expensive at the grocery stores compared to dollar stores. I'm upper middle class and I shop at dollar stores because everything from envelopes to pens to bags of chips is cheaper at them.

wiseleo 6y ago

I am confused... Dollar General and Family Dollar are not really dollar stores. They have "dollar" in their name, but the prices are comparable to other supermarkets. I just looked at their weekly ads and it could have been any other mainstream supermarket with similar pricing. Yet the article only mentions Dollar Tree in tangential context by saying they locate predominantly in suburban areas, which implies lower crime. While Family Dollar is technically owned by Dollar Tree, it is not integrated and functionally a failed acquisition. Dollar General is not affiliated although Family Dollar attempted to acquire it. DollarTree, on the other hand, is a true dollar store. I shop there often and it's my preferred choice. In terms of clientele... Whole Foods (Amazon)/Sprouts/Nob Hill (Raley's)/Trader Joe's/Harris Teeter/ Boutiques - elite Safeway (Albertsons)/Lucky (Savemart)/Publix/Kroger/Raley's/Walmart - mainstream Dollar General/Family Dollar - confused "dollar" stores that are not dollar stores Food Maxx (Savemart)/Foods Co (Kroger)/Winco/Grocery Outlet - bulk shopping outside Costco DollarTree/99 Cents Only etc. - true dollar stores for shopping while broke or not considering status Convenience stores/Corner stores - terrible places to shop. Given choice, Dollar Tree always beats Dollar General and corner stores for availability of healthier foods at a lower price except produce. Fun observation: Kroger's Foods Co San Francisco store is probably the city's largest liquor store. It has armed security guards. All liquor is at front of store. Source: I maintain POS equipment for all major grocery chains. Dollar Tree is not one of them, I just shop there.

orhmeh09 6y ago
Where are these Trader Joe’s stores? In Washington it seems more affordable than Safeway and its customers not remarkably “elite.”
- wiseleo 6y ago
  TJ's packaging tends to be smaller for produce. I wouldn't want to shop there. Price per ounce is significantly higher.