10 ms·

Trust, Slavery and the African School of Economics

85 points by gauravsc 6y ago

roenxi 6y ago
Articles like this break my heart. The thing that stops ideas like the ones in this article taking root are, ultimately, the beliefs of ordinary people. The real secret of education is it is the only method humanity has discovered to stop people making the same stupid mistakes every single generation like all the other animals. There is a remarkable strategy for being very successful: identify and stop doing things that cause failure. It isn't the silver bullet but as strategies go more people should try it. Instead, everyone goes along with joining personality cults.
- artsyca 6y ago
  It's not only personality cults. There are all sorts of false cultures. The only one that works is the family model but that one is widely misunderstood and in practice it is hardly ever done right except perhaps by a professional military or sports team.
- lazyjones 6y ago
  > The real secret of education is it is the only method humanity has discovered to stop people making the same stupid mistakes every single generation like all the other animals. Strongly disagree. There are plenty of educated people doing stupid, evil, destructive things. What would have saved them is a proper upbringing in a healthy community. Some colleges are now toxic institutions that achieve the opposite.
artsyca 6y ago
Slavery and branding are two things which predate recorded history. We pretend like anything has changed but in actual fact the same rules apply as always. Money alone is enough to set the world in motion. If you value peace prepare for war. The only way to make any money is to sell the fruits of someone else's labour. You can't buy loyalty.
noworriesnate 6y ago
> A trip to Albania ended his blind affection for socialism. Traveling the world is probably the best way of educating people about human issues. I wonder if we replaced the first two years of college in America (general education stuff) with a trip around the world, what would happen? I was talking to a friend from a third world country about this and I mentioned that VR has the potential to open people's eyes about human conditions around the world. And he said, "Nope. That's a terrible idea." I asked why and he said, "VR can't convey suffering." Let's say, for sake of argument, that it costs $50,000 to send one student around the world. That's within an order of magnitude for most colleges for the first two years. Plus, it would drop due to economies of scale (also since we're talking about huge numbers of students, we could use boats instead).
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  Airplanes are cheaper than boats. To go on a freighter from the US to mainland Europe takes about 18 days and costs $100/day including meals. $3600 two-way. To make the same trip in an airplane if booked in advance is around $600 (can be just $300 at times, though).
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    Now factor in environmental costs, and add benefits of the journey?
    - Robotbeat 6y ago
      Yup. If your boat is powered by fossil fuels, airplane still beats it because you need to haul around a miniature apartment instead of just a lightweight seat for each person. Folks under-estimate how efficient airplanes are and how inefficient humans are when you need to keep them sane for several weeks at sea. (At efficient speed, around 45 mpg per passenger for an ocean liner and 100mpg for a modern airliner.) Sailing ships may be another matter.
      - kmonsen 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
- steve76 6y ago
  Load the page, and hit CTRL+A then CTRL+C real fast. Paste in a text editor.
- dundarious 6y ago
  https://archive.md/20200626134049/https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/05/21/trust-slavery-and-the-african-school-of-economics https://archive.md/20200626134049/https://www.economist.com/...
edoo 6y ago
This is very prescient as right now the radical leftists are busy destroying the icons of anti-slavery and black success. Marxist's always destroy the good history when they take control. If you don't know where you are from you can be led anywhere. We'll see slavery again in this country if we forget our past.
rayiner 6y ago
> Another result of Mr Wantchekon’s political past is a preference for empiricism over ideology. A trip to Albania ended his blind affection for socialism. His school is not part of efforts to “decolonise” the African academy. Any student of politics must read Rousseau and Madison, he argues. The aim is to add to the sum of human knowledge, not subtract from it. “Be angry but also be thoughtful,” he says. This is something that should be impressed upon all the Americans who throw around the term “decolonization.” What would “decolonizing” say Bangladesh (where I am from) mean? Should we abandon the use of English? Dismantle our Supreme Court, an institution we inherited from the British? Dismantle our legal system built on British common law, or our constitution built on the American constitution and the Magna Carta? Abandon capitalism and free markets (which 80%+ of the population support because it has revolutionized the country)? Abandon western ideas like religious freedom, secularism, feminism, individualism, etc? What would we replace those things with?
- zozbot234 6y ago
  > What would we replace those things with? Religious freedom is also an Indian idea, not just a Western one. And Indians are also exporting new progressive ideas to the West, such as the animal rights activism struggle of India's cow protection movement.
  - jimbob45 6y ago
    Pretty sure PETA already has that covered pretty well.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Ah yes, the Hindu model of caring more about cows than untouchables. Definitely ideology worth emulating. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/08/13/489883492/the-caste-formerly-known-as-untouchables-demands-a-new-role-in-india https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/08/13/4898834...
    - zozbot234 6y ago
      > Ah yes, the Hindu model of caring more about cows than untouchables. Ah, yes, "the Hindu model". Meanwhile, plenty of high-status Westerners will happily donate and volunteer towards their local animal shelters, seemingly caring more about them than about Indian untouchables and other millions of people in extreme poverty, that they could donate to instead. Why do you assume it's only Hindus who sometimes push their charitable concerns too far?
godelzilla 6y ago
>His school is not part of efforts to “decolonise” the African academy. So they're not interested in fixing colonialism, just writing about it. Typical angle for The Economist.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Thank god for the Economist then. About 20 years ago, Mother Jones published an article about Bangladesh (my home country) encouraging it to not follow the World Bank’s advice: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/05/alternative-progress/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/05/alternative-pro... The article attacked the World Bank’s recommendation basically on the grounds that it encouraged westernization: > In the words of Rahman, who co-authored the Bank report, Bangladeshis are now at a “survival” stage and need to make a “quantum leap” to some higher level of development, a leap that inevitably leads to urbanization, an export-oriented economy, more fertilizer, big electric power plants. Mother Jones' pitch was, basically, stay poor but try to address factors like infant mortality and malnutrition through other means, like organic farming and indigenous medicine: > Kerala, perhaps, the state of 30 million people in the south of India that has achieved Western levels of life expectancy, literacy, infant mortality, and fertility on an average income per capita of $300 per year. But the World Bank and Monsanto don’t talk about Kerala; they talk about Thailand and Singapore. The article has not aged well. Look at the article's baseline statistics from 2000: > The average person dies at 60, and the infant mortality rate is 10 times that of the United States. After leaning into capitalization and technological development over the last 20 years, life expectancy is up 12 years, to 72. Infant mortality rate has been cut by 60%, reducing the gap with the USA from a factor of 10 to a factor of 4. Listening to Mother Jones and “decolonizing” Bangladesh would have led to millions of dead children and sustained poverty. Kerala didn't listen to Mother Jones either. Over the last 20 years, it developed a modern services economy, and now has a purchasing-power adjusted GDP per capita of $11,000, 60% higher than the rest of India.
  - Der_Einzige 6y ago
    Isn't Kerala ran by literal communists? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_Kerala https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_Kerala Edit: downvoters should instead explain to me why my point is wrong. Kerala has been ran by the local communist parties for most of the last 40 years, and communists keep winning majorities there. Seems to go against the OP claim https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Democratic_Front_(Kerala) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Democratic_Front_(Keral... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Kerala_Legislative_Assembly_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Kerala_Legislative_Asse... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Kerala_Legislative_Assembly_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Kerala_Legislative_Asse... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Kerala_Legislative_Assembly_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Kerala_Legislative_Asse... And so on, the communists and the other party trade power most elections.
AnthonBerg 6y ago
"The words struck a chord with Mr Wantchekon. Now a professor at Princeton University, he was born in Zagnanado in central Benin. Some of the music he listened to in his youth—such as that of Orchestre Poly-Rythmo de Cotonou—had songs that warned against trusting those close to you." I checked; The music is ... astoundingly beautiful. Orchestre Poly-Rythmo de Cotonou: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2hzzC6W1jnkn6x6RyutlB3?si=ZduTuQsXTZuhrROsELqBNQ https://open.spotify.com/artist/2hzzC6W1jnkn6x6RyutlB3?si=Zd...
- detritus 6y ago
  Thank you for this - my first music recommendation from HN! Particularly of interest to me is the 'slightly slippery' beat it appears to have. It seems slightly off in places, but pleasingly so.
  - AnthonBerg 6y ago
    Yes! I know next to nothing about African music - just starting to learn about it - but I’m certain that these incredibly subtle wrinkles in time are on purpose. Willful. Being celebrated. In some songs there are beautiful little rhythmic foreshadowing events - the last note of a bassline let slip almost imperceptibly two, three times, in preparation for hitting the listener with a twist or impact. All on a barely noticeable level, interwoven. I also feel an incredibly strong sense of collaboration in African music. Which is - I guess ironic?, in the context of the article. Painfully and poignantly. It’s interesting. I’m going to mention Pamelo Mounk’a, M’Pongo Love, Franco, Coupé Cloué, Docteur Nico, Tabu Ley Rochereau, and Simba Wanyika/Les Wanyika, in case their music brings as rich a reward to others as it has to me. From there it goes all over the place – and Africa is big! And old! And beautiful and full of joy and subtlety and craft.
    - tsco77 6y ago
      Thank you for sharing. I'd love to find more of this sort of thing through HN.
madballster 6y ago
"data-mining skills" -- I cringed at this phrase used by the journalist. Data mining is not a worthwhile skill, in fact its more of an insult. It's a curse any scientist worth his salt tries to avoid.
neonate 6y ago
https://archive.vn/LefC3 https://archive.vn/LefC3

85 points by gauravsc 6y ago

Articles like this break my heart. The thing that stops ideas like the ones in this article taking root are, ultimately, the beliefs of ordinary people. The real secret of education is it is the only method humanity has discovered to stop people making the same stupid mistakes every single generation like all the other animals. There is a remarkable strategy for being very successful: identify and stop doing things that cause failure. It isn't the silver bullet but as strategies go more people should try it. Instead, everyone goes along with joining personality cults.

artsyca 6y ago
It's not only personality cults. There are all sorts of false cultures. The only one that works is the family model but that one is widely misunderstood and in practice it is hardly ever done right except perhaps by a professional military or sports team.
lazyjones 6y ago
> The real secret of education is it is the only method humanity has discovered to stop people making the same stupid mistakes every single generation like all the other animals. Strongly disagree. There are plenty of educated people doing stupid, evil, destructive things. What would have saved them is a proper upbringing in a healthy community. Some colleges are now toxic institutions that achieve the opposite.

artsyca 6y ago

Slavery and branding are two things which predate recorded history. We pretend like anything has changed but in actual fact the same rules apply as always. Money alone is enough to set the world in motion. If you value peace prepare for war. The only way to make any money is to sell the fruits of someone else's labour. You can't buy loyalty.

noworriesnate 6y ago

> A trip to Albania ended his blind affection for socialism. Traveling the world is probably the best way of educating people about human issues. I wonder if we replaced the first two years of college in America (general education stuff) with a trip around the world, what would happen? I was talking to a friend from a third world country about this and I mentioned that VR has the potential to open people's eyes about human conditions around the world. And he said, "Nope. That's a terrible idea." I asked why and he said, "VR can't convey suffering." Let's say, for sake of argument, that it costs $50,000 to send one student around the world. That's within an order of magnitude for most colleges for the first two years. Plus, it would drop due to economies of scale (also since we're talking about huge numbers of students, we could use boats instead).

Robotbeat 6y ago
Airplanes are cheaper than boats. To go on a freighter from the US to mainland Europe takes about 18 days and costs $100/day including meals. $3600 two-way. To make the same trip in an airplane if booked in advance is around $600 (can be just $300 at times, though).
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  Now factor in environmental costs, and add benefits of the journey?
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    Yup. If your boat is powered by fossil fuels, airplane still beats it because you need to haul around a miniature apartment instead of just a lightweight seat for each person. Folks under-estimate how efficient airplanes are and how inefficient humans are when you need to keep them sane for several weeks at sea. (At efficient speed, around 45 mpg per passenger for an ocean liner and 100mpg for a modern airliner.) Sailing ships may be another matter.
    - kmonsen 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

steve76 6y ago
Load the page, and hit CTRL+A then CTRL+C real fast. Paste in a text editor.
dundarious 6y ago
https://archive.md/20200626134049/https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/05/21/trust-slavery-and-the-african-school-of-economics https://archive.md/20200626134049/https://www.economist.com/...

edoo 6y ago

This is very prescient as right now the radical leftists are busy destroying the icons of anti-slavery and black success. Marxist's always destroy the good history when they take control. If you don't know where you are from you can be led anywhere. We'll see slavery again in this country if we forget our past.

rayiner 6y ago

> Another result of Mr Wantchekon’s political past is a preference for empiricism over ideology. A trip to Albania ended his blind affection for socialism. His school is not part of efforts to “decolonise” the African academy. Any student of politics must read Rousseau and Madison, he argues. The aim is to add to the sum of human knowledge, not subtract from it. “Be angry but also be thoughtful,” he says. This is something that should be impressed upon all the Americans who throw around the term “decolonization.” What would “decolonizing” say Bangladesh (where I am from) mean? Should we abandon the use of English? Dismantle our Supreme Court, an institution we inherited from the British? Dismantle our legal system built on British common law, or our constitution built on the American constitution and the Magna Carta? Abandon capitalism and free markets (which 80%+ of the population support because it has revolutionized the country)? Abandon western ideas like religious freedom, secularism, feminism, individualism, etc? What would we replace those things with?

zozbot234 6y ago
> What would we replace those things with? Religious freedom is also an Indian idea, not just a Western one. And Indians are also exporting new progressive ideas to the West, such as the animal rights activism struggle of India's cow protection movement.
- jimbob45 6y ago
  Pretty sure PETA already has that covered pretty well.
- fastball 6y ago
  Ah yes, the Hindu model of caring more about cows than untouchables. Definitely ideology worth emulating. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/08/13/489883492/the-caste-formerly-known-as-untouchables-demands-a-new-role-in-india https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/08/13/4898834...
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    > Ah yes, the Hindu model of caring more about cows than untouchables. Ah, yes, "the Hindu model". Meanwhile, plenty of high-status Westerners will happily donate and volunteer towards their local animal shelters, seemingly caring more about them than about Indian untouchables and other millions of people in extreme poverty, that they could donate to instead. Why do you assume it's only Hindus who sometimes push their charitable concerns too far?

godelzilla 6y ago

>His school is not part of efforts to “decolonise” the African academy. So they're not interested in fixing colonialism, just writing about it. Typical angle for The Economist.

rayiner 6y ago
Thank god for the Economist then. About 20 years ago, Mother Jones published an article about Bangladesh (my home country) encouraging it to not follow the World Bank’s advice: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/05/alternative-progress/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/05/alternative-pro... The article attacked the World Bank’s recommendation basically on the grounds that it encouraged westernization: > In the words of Rahman, who co-authored the Bank report, Bangladeshis are now at a “survival” stage and need to make a “quantum leap” to some higher level of development, a leap that inevitably leads to urbanization, an export-oriented economy, more fertilizer, big electric power plants. Mother Jones' pitch was, basically, stay poor but try to address factors like infant mortality and malnutrition through other means, like organic farming and indigenous medicine: > Kerala, perhaps, the state of 30 million people in the south of India that has achieved Western levels of life expectancy, literacy, infant mortality, and fertility on an average income per capita of $300 per year. But the World Bank and Monsanto don’t talk about Kerala; they talk about Thailand and Singapore. The article has not aged well. Look at the article's baseline statistics from 2000: > The average person dies at 60, and the infant mortality rate is 10 times that of the United States. After leaning into capitalization and technological development over the last 20 years, life expectancy is up 12 years, to 72. Infant mortality rate has been cut by 60%, reducing the gap with the USA from a factor of 10 to a factor of 4. Listening to Mother Jones and “decolonizing” Bangladesh would have led to millions of dead children and sustained poverty. Kerala didn't listen to Mother Jones either. Over the last 20 years, it developed a modern services economy, and now has a purchasing-power adjusted GDP per capita of $11,000, 60% higher than the rest of India.
- Der_Einzige 6y ago
  Isn't Kerala ran by literal communists? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_Kerala https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_Kerala Edit: downvoters should instead explain to me why my point is wrong. Kerala has been ran by the local communist parties for most of the last 40 years, and communists keep winning majorities there. Seems to go against the OP claim https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Democratic_Front_(Kerala) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Democratic_Front_(Keral... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Kerala_Legislative_Assembly_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Kerala_Legislative_Asse... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Kerala_Legislative_Assembly_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Kerala_Legislative_Asse... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Kerala_Legislative_Assembly_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Kerala_Legislative_Asse... And so on, the communists and the other party trade power most elections.

AnthonBerg 6y ago

"The words struck a chord with Mr Wantchekon. Now a professor at Princeton University, he was born in Zagnanado in central Benin. Some of the music he listened to in his youth—such as that of Orchestre Poly-Rythmo de Cotonou—had songs that warned against trusting those close to you." I checked; The music is ... astoundingly beautiful. Orchestre Poly-Rythmo de Cotonou: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2hzzC6W1jnkn6x6RyutlB3?si=ZduTuQsXTZuhrROsELqBNQ https://open.spotify.com/artist/2hzzC6W1jnkn6x6RyutlB3?si=Zd...

detritus 6y ago
Thank you for this - my first music recommendation from HN! Particularly of interest to me is the 'slightly slippery' beat it appears to have. It seems slightly off in places, but pleasingly so.
- AnthonBerg 6y ago
  Yes! I know next to nothing about African music - just starting to learn about it - but I’m certain that these incredibly subtle wrinkles in time are on purpose. Willful. Being celebrated. In some songs there are beautiful little rhythmic foreshadowing events - the last note of a bassline let slip almost imperceptibly two, three times, in preparation for hitting the listener with a twist or impact. All on a barely noticeable level, interwoven. I also feel an incredibly strong sense of collaboration in African music. Which is - I guess ironic?, in the context of the article. Painfully and poignantly. It’s interesting. I’m going to mention Pamelo Mounk’a, M’Pongo Love, Franco, Coupé Cloué, Docteur Nico, Tabu Ley Rochereau, and Simba Wanyika/Les Wanyika, in case their music brings as rich a reward to others as it has to me. From there it goes all over the place – and Africa is big! And old! And beautiful and full of joy and subtlety and craft.
  - tsco77 6y ago
    Thank you for sharing. I'd love to find more of this sort of thing through HN.

madballster 6y ago

"data-mining skills" -- I cringed at this phrase used by the journalist. Data mining is not a worthwhile skill, in fact its more of an insult. It's a curse any scientist worth his salt tries to avoid.

neonate 6y ago

https://archive.vn/LefC3 https://archive.vn/LefC3