8 ms·

My news and social media feeds are almost universally negative about this. Who is happy about H1B Visa suspension? Who was advocating for it?

Supermancho 6y ago
Everyone I know, including me? There is _no_ shortage of workers for virtually any industry. There is a shortage of people willing to work for submarket rates.
- automated_toast 6y ago
  Exactly. Whenever business leaders moan about 'shortages', they say "We can't find Americans to do the job" when they mean "We can't find Americans to do the job at the shitty wage we want to pay"
  - automated_toast 6y ago
    And it's not a race thing, it's a money thing. Hong Kong Chinese don't want paltry wages so they import Filipinos. Lebanese don't want paltry wages so they import Sri Lankans. Even black South Africans don't want paltry wages to they import Zimbabweans.
    - spatley 6y ago
      It's not a race thing, it's a money thing. The U. S. cotton agriculture workers don't want to work for nothing so they import Africans.
      - Supermancho 6y ago
        The US Railroad liked Chinese immigrants, etc. That's what happened, for the same reasons that H1B visa hires are popular.
  - Daishiman 6y ago
    None of the big tech cos hiring H1Bs are doing so below market salary; they in fact have substantial bonuses attached to these hires. H1Bs aren't stupid are they're not exactly desperate for work opportunities either.
    - devalgo 6y ago
      Pretty sure this is demonstrably false. There are large spreadsheets out there documenting H1B wages at FAANG type companies and they are almost universally less than the equivalent US Citizen wages.
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        Perhaps, you would share these spreadsheets and their provenance. I certainly do not recall ever paying H1-Bs less than domestic workers.
      - objclxt 6y ago
        Those self-reporting spreadsheets aren't worth the paper they're not printed on. FAANG companies are not hiring H1-B's because it's cheaper. I have been a hiring manager at a couple of FAANG companies, and I can tell you it's just not something we cared about. The only thing I cared about was finding the most qualified people for the team. I had headcount to fill, and it wasn't like that headcount had one salary band marked "For Citizens" and another marked "For H1-Bs". The compensation systems at FAANGs are for the most part formulaic. If FAANG want cheap engineering labor they outsource and use contractors, simple as. And it's those companies - the Infosys and Wipros of the world - that are arguably are the biggest abusers of H1-B.
        TuringNYC 6y ago
        From what I understand, the H1-B salaries are public, and reported by many websites, such as: https://h1bdata.info/index.php https://h1bdata.info/index.php However, curious -- do these include stock grants, etc? I wonder if the posted numbers are only salary and not TC?
- Daishiman 6y ago
  This is really not true. If you do hiring in tech, just finding qualified candidates is a long, arduous process way before even talking about compensation. There's a hell of a lot of problems with hiring practices worldwide, but qualified software engineers are not abundant.
  - geebee 6y ago
    "If compensation were higher, qualified software engineers would be more abundant." Supply and demand isn't just about what's out there right now, it's about elasticity of both curves. When prices rise, supply increases, and demand decreases. What you've said indicates that prices are so low that demand is very high, and supply is very low. Yes, it does take a while, in some fields, for supply to ramp up - but bidding wars for the existing supply are part of the mechanism that increases the prices and signals to people with choice that software engineering (as opposed to, say, finance or corporate law) is the way to go. There's a pretty strong case to be made the the H1B is specifically designed to create a population of software engineers who are not allowed to respond to market signals that would cause them to stop being software engineers in order to do something else (or perhaps not become a software engineer in the first place). So back the the original question - compensation. What compensation package were you offering to compete for those rare and highly valuable software engineers you wanted to hire?
  - pandaman 6y ago
    >way before even talking about compensation. Is not this the problem? The vast majority of vacancies I see as well as recruiters offers do not have salary. So I just ignore them. This is also why FAANG has no problem getting candidates and can haze them to their heart's content. Even though they do not list salary too, people have high expectations and apply in huge numbers.
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  How does that work without your favorite hole-in-the-wall restraunt closing down because almost no one wants to pay $50 more for a bowl of ramen noodles every week?
  - theflyinghorse 6y ago
    I'm sorry, I'd rather not contribute to someones near poverty living so that I could enjoy ramen for $20 cheaper. The argument seems cruel if I understand it correctly - "Cheap, exploitable labour and suffering that goes with it is good because it lowers prices for ME". If that's the argument than I cannot get behind it.
    - 1MachineElf 6y ago
      No, I'm not saying I want people to be exploited so that I can enjoy cheap ramen. It's supposed to serve as an example to illustrate the fact that many goods and services we take for granted on a daily basis are available through businesses that have extremely thin profit margins. You are already contributing to someone's near poverty living if you pay taxes. See social security and unemployment insurance as examples. For places like these, it's the market's demand for cheap ramen (or whatever) that means the difference between someone living at poverty level and having no livleyhood at all.
  - automated_toast 6y ago
    I don't care about the restaurant. If I care so much about the ramen I will either pay more or make it at home.
- manuelabeledo 6y ago
  Excluding outsourcing companies, such as Tata, there is no proof that H1-B holders are paid less than the prevailing wage. The Trump administration has not targeted such companies, thus proving that this is a political move made to appeal their voter base. Also, they are not banning H2-A seasonal worker visas, i.e. temporary farm workers, furthering in the fact that this administration does not care about unemployment, given that most jobs lost because COVID-19 are blue collar and lower wage service jobs. In short, this is a move that appeals to the "America first" supporters, but has little productive value.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Who is happy about H1B Visa suspension? Who was advocating for it? Mostly, hard-right Republicans have been advocating for it, but I suspect a lot of labor (who has been raging against H-1B for a while) is happy with the policy of suspending H-1B visas, though quite dissatisfied with the politics, which is why you want hear any public support from them on it. (I favor abolition of H-1B as part of wider immigration reforms, but think that both the immigration suspension in general and the addition of various economic non-immigrant visas, including H-1B, to it in particular are bad policy, in the interest of disclosure.)
- throwmehaweh 6y ago
  which part is bad policy? that part where the US is in the midst of it's worst economic recession in modern history, with record unemployment across the board, and so they want to pause foreign worker programs to allow a larger pool for US workers?
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    It's bad policy because it was done super abruptly, throwing an unnecessarily large number of lives into chaos, and packaged with a plan to make large unspecified changes when foreign workers are allowed again. Anyone who was planning to come to the US over the next couple years is now basically forced to cancel, because who knows what the immigration system will look like then?
    - rantwasp 6y ago
      anything to make the “base” happy I guess. This ripples from this will plague the American economy for years. Maybe H1B was in need of some sort of reform, but the implementation of this is simply moronic.
jki275 6y ago
I love the direct admission that one lives in a bubble.
LatteLazy 6y ago
I think most people view this as trump vs not-trump. Also, Some people are antiimmigrant in general. That's their right though I don't agree with either position. I am anti these anti these "skilled/shortage" programs so I can play devil's advocate if you want to understand the position? My plumber is protected from immigrants trying to "steal" "his" job and I gave to pay him more as a result. But I am a high skilled worker. So my employer can get a skilled visa to replace me. That means my wages etc are depressed. So I am being punished for working hard to upskill and investing and taking the time to find and master a shortage subject. Meanwhile the guys too busy drinking to finish high-school get a monopoly on low skilled positions. What sort of logic is that? Also, is it morally right to tempt over skilled workers from less developed countries? One reason there are so few doctors in Africa is because they can come here with a bit of work once they graduate. So we generate a perpetual brain drain. A doctor who saves lives in a poor country will come here to do boob jobs and tummy tucks because its nicer here and who doesn't want 100k a year for a 9-5? I personally don't think there is a "right" answer to how to run an immigration system. But the current system (these visas included) is very corrupt as far as I can tell. So a hit from the (stupid dumb) trump hammer isn't the worst thing, the machine doesnt work anyway imho.

Supermancho 6y ago

Everyone I know, including me? There is _no_ shortage of workers for virtually any industry. There is a shortage of people willing to work for submarket rates.

automated_toast 6y ago
Exactly. Whenever business leaders moan about 'shortages', they say "We can't find Americans to do the job" when they mean "We can't find Americans to do the job at the shitty wage we want to pay"
- automated_toast 6y ago
  And it's not a race thing, it's a money thing. Hong Kong Chinese don't want paltry wages so they import Filipinos. Lebanese don't want paltry wages so they import Sri Lankans. Even black South Africans don't want paltry wages to they import Zimbabweans.
  - spatley 6y ago
    It's not a race thing, it's a money thing. The U. S. cotton agriculture workers don't want to work for nothing so they import Africans.
    - Supermancho 6y ago
      The US Railroad liked Chinese immigrants, etc. That's what happened, for the same reasons that H1B visa hires are popular.
- Daishiman 6y ago
  None of the big tech cos hiring H1Bs are doing so below market salary; they in fact have substantial bonuses attached to these hires. H1Bs aren't stupid are they're not exactly desperate for work opportunities either.
  - devalgo 6y ago
    Pretty sure this is demonstrably false. There are large spreadsheets out there documenting H1B wages at FAANG type companies and they are almost universally less than the equivalent US Citizen wages.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      Perhaps, you would share these spreadsheets and their provenance. I certainly do not recall ever paying H1-Bs less than domestic workers.
    - objclxt 6y ago
      Those self-reporting spreadsheets aren't worth the paper they're not printed on. FAANG companies are not hiring H1-B's because it's cheaper. I have been a hiring manager at a couple of FAANG companies, and I can tell you it's just not something we cared about. The only thing I cared about was finding the most qualified people for the team. I had headcount to fill, and it wasn't like that headcount had one salary band marked "For Citizens" and another marked "For H1-Bs". The compensation systems at FAANGs are for the most part formulaic. If FAANG want cheap engineering labor they outsource and use contractors, simple as. And it's those companies - the Infosys and Wipros of the world - that are arguably are the biggest abusers of H1-B.
      - TuringNYC 6y ago
        From what I understand, the H1-B salaries are public, and reported by many websites, such as: https://h1bdata.info/index.php https://h1bdata.info/index.php However, curious -- do these include stock grants, etc? I wonder if the posted numbers are only salary and not TC?
Daishiman 6y ago
This is really not true. If you do hiring in tech, just finding qualified candidates is a long, arduous process way before even talking about compensation. There's a hell of a lot of problems with hiring practices worldwide, but qualified software engineers are not abundant.
- geebee 6y ago
  "If compensation were higher, qualified software engineers would be more abundant." Supply and demand isn't just about what's out there right now, it's about elasticity of both curves. When prices rise, supply increases, and demand decreases. What you've said indicates that prices are so low that demand is very high, and supply is very low. Yes, it does take a while, in some fields, for supply to ramp up - but bidding wars for the existing supply are part of the mechanism that increases the prices and signals to people with choice that software engineering (as opposed to, say, finance or corporate law) is the way to go. There's a pretty strong case to be made the the H1B is specifically designed to create a population of software engineers who are not allowed to respond to market signals that would cause them to stop being software engineers in order to do something else (or perhaps not become a software engineer in the first place). So back the the original question - compensation. What compensation package were you offering to compete for those rare and highly valuable software engineers you wanted to hire?
- pandaman 6y ago
  >way before even talking about compensation. Is not this the problem? The vast majority of vacancies I see as well as recruiters offers do not have salary. So I just ignore them. This is also why FAANG has no problem getting candidates and can haze them to their heart's content. Even though they do not list salary too, people have high expectations and apply in huge numbers.
1MachineElf 6y ago
How does that work without your favorite hole-in-the-wall restraunt closing down because almost no one wants to pay $50 more for a bowl of ramen noodles every week?
- theflyinghorse 6y ago
  I'm sorry, I'd rather not contribute to someones near poverty living so that I could enjoy ramen for $20 cheaper. The argument seems cruel if I understand it correctly - "Cheap, exploitable labour and suffering that goes with it is good because it lowers prices for ME". If that's the argument than I cannot get behind it.
  - 1MachineElf 6y ago
    No, I'm not saying I want people to be exploited so that I can enjoy cheap ramen. It's supposed to serve as an example to illustrate the fact that many goods and services we take for granted on a daily basis are available through businesses that have extremely thin profit margins. You are already contributing to someone's near poverty living if you pay taxes. See social security and unemployment insurance as examples. For places like these, it's the market's demand for cheap ramen (or whatever) that means the difference between someone living at poverty level and having no livleyhood at all.
- automated_toast 6y ago
  I don't care about the restaurant. If I care so much about the ramen I will either pay more or make it at home.
manuelabeledo 6y ago
Excluding outsourcing companies, such as Tata, there is no proof that H1-B holders are paid less than the prevailing wage. The Trump administration has not targeted such companies, thus proving that this is a political move made to appeal their voter base. Also, they are not banning H2-A seasonal worker visas, i.e. temporary farm workers, furthering in the fact that this administration does not care about unemployment, given that most jobs lost because COVID-19 are blue collar and lower wage service jobs. In short, this is a move that appeals to the "America first" supporters, but has little productive value.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Who is happy about H1B Visa suspension? Who was advocating for it? Mostly, hard-right Republicans have been advocating for it, but I suspect a lot of labor (who has been raging against H-1B for a while) is happy with the policy of suspending H-1B visas, though quite dissatisfied with the politics, which is why you want hear any public support from them on it. (I favor abolition of H-1B as part of wider immigration reforms, but think that both the immigration suspension in general and the addition of various economic non-immigrant visas, including H-1B, to it in particular are bad policy, in the interest of disclosure.)

throwmehaweh 6y ago
which part is bad policy? that part where the US is in the midst of it's worst economic recession in modern history, with record unemployment across the board, and so they want to pause foreign worker programs to allow a larger pool for US workers?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It's bad policy because it was done super abruptly, throwing an unnecessarily large number of lives into chaos, and packaged with a plan to make large unspecified changes when foreign workers are allowed again. Anyone who was planning to come to the US over the next couple years is now basically forced to cancel, because who knows what the immigration system will look like then?
  - rantwasp 6y ago
    anything to make the “base” happy I guess. This ripples from this will plague the American economy for years. Maybe H1B was in need of some sort of reform, but the implementation of this is simply moronic.

jki275 6y ago

I love the direct admission that one lives in a bubble.

LatteLazy 6y ago

I think most people view this as trump vs not-trump. Also, Some people are antiimmigrant in general. That's their right though I don't agree with either position. I am anti these anti these "skilled/shortage" programs so I can play devil's advocate if you want to understand the position? My plumber is protected from immigrants trying to "steal" "his" job and I gave to pay him more as a result. But I am a high skilled worker. So my employer can get a skilled visa to replace me. That means my wages etc are depressed. So I am being punished for working hard to upskill and investing and taking the time to find and master a shortage subject. Meanwhile the guys too busy drinking to finish high-school get a monopoly on low skilled positions. What sort of logic is that? Also, is it morally right to tempt over skilled workers from less developed countries? One reason there are so few doctors in Africa is because they can come here with a bit of work once they graduate. So we generate a perpetual brain drain. A doctor who saves lives in a poor country will come here to do boob jobs and tummy tucks because its nicer here and who doesn't want 100k a year for a 9-5? I personally don't think there is a "right" answer to how to run an immigration system. But the current system (these visas included) is very corrupt as far as I can tell. So a hit from the (stupid dumb) trump hammer isn't the worst thing, the machine doesnt work anyway imho.