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Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year
- vsskanth 6y agoThis is going to have a chilling effect on international students thinking of coming to the United States. Many people who do end up getting kicked out will probably take their jobs with them back home, especially in tech.
- theduder99 6y agoMany international students come to the US to get a world class education. That won't change.
- kondu 6y agoNot at all. For most of the universities, grad schools are absolute cash cows. International students come here for grad school largely because of the associated 3 year(2 for non-STEM) OPT period and ease of getting a H1B during it.
- boruto 6y agoThey take loans to pay for the world class education. If they have no option to repay those loans would they come to US?
- tibbydudeza 6y agoI think it is a very good idea ... poaching of the best and brightest talent from less developed countries who invested in the education of these people is a form of robbery. If you need them , then let them work remotely and pay them fair wages as they would have received in the US and let them contribute their tax to their own country.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y agoI look at it the other way. FAANG has more than enough money to invest in domestic training. Either way it’s a win.
- stickfigure 6y agoRobbery? I'm guessing you also feel that the people who escaped across the Berlin Wall were "robbing" the Soviet Union of their labor? I don't suppose the actual humans involved get a say in this, do they?
- fredfoobar 6y agoMy dude, the people who came here to work and make their living are individuals, they have desires of their own to trade their services for a good life. Countries don't own their citizens, they are entities organized by people interested in living there.
- SomeoneFromCA 6y agoOf course they do not own their citizen, that is why you can take them to the US or other developed countries. However yes you do rob these countries of skilled workforce, and yes you do create an environment, which stuntnts the growth of these countries and yes you do increase the misery of the other citizen who is left in that countries. You just have to be honest, and say that benefit for US outweighs the loss for say India or Ukraine.
- fredfoobar 6y agoI don't think someone from a collectivist culture will never be able to understand the motivations of someone from an individualistic culture, I believe it's a pretty deep seated blindness. I can't help you, rather, we can't help each other, you just have to be in the right region of the globe that supports your intrinsic culture. [1] > which stuntnts the growth of these countries and yes you do increase the misery of the other citizen who is left in that countries So, are you suggesting that each country imprison all their individuals and extract value for itself? Absurd. [1] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-sapolsky-culture-and-behavior-20140803-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-sapolsky-culture...
- retortio 6y agoH1-B was intended for highly skilled workers that the US had a real shortage of. But now it's just being abused to bring in captive workers that are willing to accept lower wages and worse working conditions than otherwise while crowding out US workers. What if, instead of bowing to corporate greed which cares not a bit for our country or our people, we actually invested in our own population and trained them to do the jobs H1-B workers currently do. Scaling back H1-B in this way is the common sense approach. And it benefits other countries too by reducing brain drain. It's a win-win.
- samfisher83 6y agoYou can look at the data, SV companies aren't paying H1B people low wages. Unless you think 200-300k is low wages.
- noobermin 6y agoIs this true? The argument I've seen is that H1B's are liked by SV because they can be paid less.
- rantwasp 6y agotechnically it’s illegal to pay H1B workers less than what you pay your workers.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- samfisher83 6y agohttps://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Facebook+Inc&job=&city=&year=2020 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Facebook+Inc&job=&city=&ye... This doesn't include stock so maybe double that number for TC.
- pstrateman 6y ago
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoThe Silicon Valley was built on the backs of H1-B workers. There’s the bay wouldn’t be the technical hub without access to the global workforce.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- snovv_crash 6y agoThe bay area doesn't vote Trump. This is a natural response to the voting mechanism. Only swing states get pandered to.
- exsf0859 6y agoThat's simply not true. SV was built in the 60's thru the 80's long before the H1-B visa program started in 1990.
- tartoran 6y agoMaybe the OP means the modern SV aka FAANG and that is not far from the truth or very hard to disprove. Things turned out the way they did for a lot of reasons and none of them can be really discounted.
- ojbyrne 6y agoA little too specific, if you change "H1-B visa" to "immigrants" its most definitely true.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoCorrect, I meant all immigrants, not just H1-B.
- akira2501 6y agoThe biggest employers of H1-B workers have almost always been consulting companies, most of them located well outside the valley.
- 6y ago
- saltedonion 6y agoThis and eroding section 230. I wonder if tech companies are going to fire back at trump.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- godzillabrennus 6y agoIf Facebook/twitter/google wanted to play with fire they could use their platformS to basically vanquish the GOP. Those three companies control a significant amount of what people see online.
- retortio 6y agoHooray for a few corporations controlling almost everything we see online! It's ok because it's "my side" that has the power! Principles be damned, life is a power grab and I'm on the winning side, yippee! This will never turn out badly for me or anyone else in the future!
- consz 6y agoUsing a tool available to you is not bad just because it would be bad if the other side could also use it.
- throwlogon 6y agoIt's surely an indication that the tool should not be available though, assuming the two sides are subject to the same rules.
- lern_too_spel 6y agoThe "other side" has been playing these games with school board book standards and redistricting. It's naive to think that one side's restraint will be paid back with restraint from the other side. A better tactic might be to exploit as much as you can, so the other side also calls for reforms. The same could be said for any loophole. If you don't exploit it, that does not mean that nobody else will exploit it. You should push for the loophole to be fixed while exploiting it to show why.
- BolexNOLA 6y agoThis has gotten very old very fast (beyond the obvious cruelty). I have several friends who keep watching their colleagues just have to up and leave over this and it’s causing a ton of issues for businesses that employ folks on work visas in general. It’s just disruptive to be disruptive/feed the base.
- tomohawk 6y agoInstead of H1B, we should be issuing green cards and limiting the amount of leverage that companies have over workers. Eliminate H1B and expand green cards for skilled people who want to live here.
- theflork 6y agoThat’s honestly a great market based idea and more in spirit of what h1-b is meant to do.
- hckr_news 6y agoAgreed. H1B is just a front for immigration anyway. US Companies and the government should probably stop lying to themselves. If they want to bring over talented workers, give them rights too.
- lollipop90 6y agoI'm here on an L1 (intra-company transferee). I was initially supposed to come on an H1b, however, lost the lottery twice. (Lottery is difficult to win due to rampant abuse by certain Indian-US outsourcing companies) For H1b, you can at least change jobs. An L1 cannot change jobs at all. So, you are completely at the mercy of your employer. Fortunately my employer is benign, but that is not the case for everyone. Having a proper points system (not one that is easily gamed) and giving people a greencard to enable them to change jobs would be a much better system. This would prevent low-skilled workers and the suppression of US salaries. And if there is a high demand, the US can just take those with the highest points (as the Australian system does). There are two very good systems: 1. Australian 189 permanent resident system. Example of points: https://www.am22tech.com/au/australia-points-calculator-for-skills-based-permanent-residency-application/ https://www.am22tech.com/au/australia-points-calculator-for-... There is limited positions, so only those with the highest points are selected. (Compared to H1b where the bar is low and people are selected via lottery. This incentivises outsourcing companies to have 4 people apply for every one true position). 2. Japan's point-based high skill visa (Technical stream) http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/system/index.html http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/system/index.html Processing time for this is 5 days guaranteed and very easy to apply for (I got mine in 4 days). This is not permanent residence, but you can apply for permanent residence after 1 year.
- tinyhouse 6y agoNot clear from the article what this means. Would it impact existing visa holders already in the US? What about those who got an H-1B in this year's lottery? Is their visa canceled or postponed to a later date not known yet? (normally for a given year October is the earliest people can start working on H-1B)
- bradleyjg 6y agoIt hasn’t been issued yet, so no way to know for sure but the rumor is that no one will be able to enter (including re-enter) if they fall under the executive order but those in the country in status will not be immediately impacted.
- tinyhouse 6y agoMy educated guess is that the majority of this year's H-1B are already in the US. I wonder what it would mean for them.
- blntechie 6y agoH-1B new visa entry cycle starts October 1 every year. So it most likely prevents every approved visa holder for this year cycle.
- dmurray 6y agoThe same as if they lost the lottery, presumably, except they find out 4 months earlier.
- jpollock 6y agoThis year's H1-Bs don't start until October 1st, and they can't enter the US "early". https://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-petition-filing-deadline-is-it-april-1st-october-1st-uscis-fiscal-year/#:~:text=If%20you%20applied%20for%20H1B,and%20ends%20by%20Sep%2030th https://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-petition-filing-deadline-is-i....
- 6y ago
- coreai 6y agoIf this is true then next year the chances of getting an H1B would become less than half while the applications would double.
- andrewgodwin 6y agoI'm (worriedly) curious how this will affect people trying to change jobs on a H1-B, as technically you need to file a new petition each time, and I can see them somehow denying those too.
- tartoran 6y agoThats probably nightmare as H1-B holders are kept on a tight leash already
- ra7 6y agoExtremely risky, I’d say. There would be people who have already changed jobs pending H1B transfer authorization (since premium processing was suspending earlier), also called joining “on receipt”. Normal processing takes weeks to months and if their transfer applications end up getting rejected now, they lose visa status.
- cylinder 6y agothe entry ban will be for visa issuance at Consulates and entry into the US from abroad. what you are talking about would require a rule-making process and/or statutory change. they are going to try that, but it will take longer and will be subject to judicial review. AC21 lets you change employers without waiting for the petition to be approved. that's statutory. much harder to change as it would require Congress. eventually, your visa label will expire. after that, if you need to travel overseas, you will need a new visa label and under this proposed exec order, if it's still active you will not be able to return. so you will have to avoid overseas travel entirely until the ban is lifted.
- crispyporkbites 6y agoAll my friends in the US are staying put now, they can’t go see their families after covid because they have no idea if they’ll be allowed back in. Bad for america, good for the rest of the world though- maybe by restricting American foreign policy we’ll see more competition for SV open up globally.
- bebc 6y ago2020 is the election year.
- iaw 6y agoSo highly paid permanent resident tech professionals even more highly paid and a lot of non-permanent residents get even more harmed because of their country of birth.... I personally feel that the H1-B system needs to be rethought to encourage a healthier but not at the expense of bringing hard working immigrants into this country.
- ixtli 6y agoSurely this will bring jobs back to America. Surely this will mitigate the unmitigated failure that is the American governments non-response to COVID. Surely Silicon Valley executives sucking up to the whitehouse will make this less damaging and didn’t contribute to it happening in the first place. Surely this will be the thing that takes down Donald trump.
- rantwasp 6y agoyou forgot to mention that we all get a pony. what the heck is going on in this country? have we lost it?
- tartoran 6y agoWith a rabid lunatic in the WH it appears so..
- ixtli 6y agoIt’s interesting to me that HN doesn’t seem to like my comment. Wonder what that means. Edit: I can’t reply to these replies but the post is about something the whitehouse is doing. All conversations about this link are implicitly political and if that’s against the rules then either the post should be removed or the rules should be changed.
- rantwasp 6y agoit’s political. and an attack. insert something about guidelines
- nine_zeros 6y agoErratic government decisions can have severe consequences on businesses. About time US companies realize that they need to have more fault tolerance to support their employees by open more global offices. This is especially true because the world outside is becoming more competitive and erratic business decisions like this will destroy product competitiveness. As for foreign companies/entrepreneurs/would be business owners with capital, the US is shut. There is no need to do business here.
- tathougies 6y agoMost countries have suspended immigration at this point havent they? Hard to argue against such a thing amid covid.
- joelbluminator 6y agoI don't know that that's true, any source for that? If countries are opening up for tourists (!) I don't see why not for immigration.
- infamouscow 6y agoName one country that has opened for tourists or has recently (as in the last week or two) said they will open for tourists.
- joelbluminator 6y agoGreece https://www.greece-is.com/when-can-i-travel-to-greece-again/ https://www.greece-is.com/when-can-i-travel-to-greece-again/. Also, I'm based in the Netherlands and heard that Amsterdam already sees tourists from Germany etc. Of course it's nothing like the masses that usually come there, but it's not closed.
- tathougies 6y agoAmsterdam and Germany are both in the Schengen area. Certainly there is more to border shutdowns between the two states other than government fiat?
- TheNorthman 6y agoDenmark [0] and Sweden [1]. [0]: https://um.dk/da/nyheder-fra-udenrigsministeriet/newsdisplaypage/?newsID=AE42B703-ECD6-4836-A763-2052E641598F https://um.dk/da/nyheder-fra-udenrigsministeriet/newsdisplay... [1]: https://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2020/06/ud-avradan/ https://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2020/06/ud-avrada...
- zomglings 6y agoI wonder if they can make an exemption for the tech industry. Feels like this is just going to accelerate the moves we've seen in the Bay Area towards companies going fully remote. If this happens, the administration could see a lot of that money just leave the country altogether.
- raverbashing 6y agoTech is what? 90% of H1-Bs? No way they're going to make an exception for that
- ixtli 6y agoThe point is, in part, to attack tech.
- zomglings 6y agoAround 68.7% in 2017. Going by these numbers (WARNING: PDF download): https://immigrationhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/h-1b-2007-2017-trend-tables.pdf https://immigrationhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/h-... That shows what a short-sighted move this is on the part of the administration - just re-election theater, I guess.
- joelbluminator 6y agoAnd yet everyone and their mother wanna move there no matter the price paid in uncertainty, pressure and mental health. They could try go to a country with a straight forward immigration process like Canada, but money is more important than anything else to some people.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y agoThe immigration restrictions to Canada are more strict aren’t they? Is there a minimum asset requirement? Is there a requirement that to apply have have to have been there for 3-5 years? An English language test? I don’t know for sure; asking.
- joelbluminator 6y agoI don't think Canada is more strict, not at all, but would like to hear from commenters who moved to Canada. Especially draconian is the fact that the spouse of a h1b holder can't work (last I checked). As an immigrant in the Netherlands that's not the case there and it's a huge deal breaker for me to ever think of the U.S.
- pkaye 6y agoIn the US the spouse of an H1B visa holder can work.
- joelbluminator 6y agoYou may or may not be right (maybe it has changed recently), but the fact it's such a constant struggle for spouses would deter me as an immigrant https://www.forbes.com/sites/andyjsemotiuk/2019/02/25/h1b-visa-holders-facing-loss-of-spousal-employment-authorizations-explore-other-options/#1f791561668f https://www.forbes.com/sites/andyjsemotiuk/2019/02/25/h1b-vi...
- toast0 6y agoIf you're immigrating for economic opportunity, it would make sense to try to make the most of it. A lot of people have a plan to make a bunch of money for 10-20 years and then go back and be entreprenerial in their home countries etc. Canada may (or may not) be a better permanent home, but if the goal is to make a bunch of money, that's not the best place to do it.
- MintelIE 6y agoTech hiring and salary suppression cartel's going to have a rough time.
- ceo_tim_crook 6y agothank god, I've seen a lot of americans rejected especially POC of varied backgrounds turned down in favor of some H1B nonsense to often it really impacts the ability for folks to rise up and move to new industries
- fsociety 6y agoPlease explain more, your comment is suspicious given your sign-up time.
- ceo_tim_crook 6y agowhat's to explain? h1bs are widely used to gain access to bodies instead of training/developing local talent it's a joke every interview template i've been given seems like it was made to exclude many people who would otherwise be fine it's not like immigration is bad or anything but the balance is screwed up and and it's causing long term damage it's bad for immigrants and bad for americans
- belltaco 6y agoThis is great news for Canada. Once the Covid situation resolves, if Trudeau doesn't give a lot of incentives for tech companies to build offices there Canada will miss out on a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Canada has already been benefiting from the recent restrictions on work visas and rejecting visas for no reason, for example by saying a forensic pathologist isn't a specialty occupation. https://www.npr.org/2020/01/27/799402801/canada-wins-u-s-loses-in-global-fight-for-high-tech-workers https://www.npr.org/2020/01/27/799402801/canada-wins-u-s-los... https://insights.dice.com/2020/02/11/canada-continues-benefit-u-s-h-1b-confusion/ https://insights.dice.com/2020/02/11/canada-continues-benefi...
- cheez 6y agoNot happening.
- dpbriggs 6y agoWouldn't TN visas be a workaround?
- derptacos 6y agoHow does the TN circumvent in this situation legally ?
- OldHand2018 6y agoThe TN visa comes from a treaty between the US, Canada and Mexico; it is not part of the immigration law that gives us the H1-B. I have no specific knowledge of the wording of the treaty, but it seems highly likely that the leader of any of the 3 countries could suspend the visa. A cousin of mine used to do staffing for highly specialized roles in the auto industry and the TN was very important in the Detroit/Windsor metro area. I don't think it is used in tech anywhere near as much as it is used elsewhere; since it is clear that the current administration is just looking for ways to give the tech industry a hard time, it seems unlikely that TN would be a target. On the other hand, the method for getting a TN visa is very much different than other visas. A Mexican citizen coming into the US has a fair amount of advanced paperwork required but otherwise has almost no problem. A Canadian citizen just shows up at the border with a job offer, a detailed description of the job and proof of the education requirements. The immigration officer makes the determination on the spot and they either walk through or turn around! The administration could quietly issue guidance to immigration officers about how strict they need to be, and you might end up with very similar effects without all the publicity of an executive order.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- m0zg 6y agoAs a former H1-B: makes sense. H1-B is abused a lot, and importing new entry-level workers when unemployment is at record highs after COVID makes zero sense. Although I'm sure Hawaiian judge will disagree.
- ixtli 6y agoStopping workers coming in from one place isn’t about making sure Americans have jobs tho. It doesn’t magically change the cost of rent. It doesn’t magically educate the uneducated. Nor should it. This is about being able to report to middle class white people that ‘immigration stopped’.
- pelasaco 6y agoI'm not sure if you are right: https://www.blackenterprise.com/will-limiting-h1b-visas-help-african-american-tech-workers/ https://www.blackenterprise.com/will-limiting-h1b-visas-help... BTW 500k people on the H1B1 visa is a hell lot of "skilled people": https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/us/foreign-workers-visas-immigrants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/us/foreign-workers-visas-...
- m0zg 6y agoWhat's also hidden behind the numbers is that a lot (most?) of H1-Bs come from India and China, both of which have insanely long green card backglogs. Because changing jobs while on H1-B is a perilous affair (and employers know it), those folks end up basically in indentured servitude to their original H1-B sponsor employer, especially if they have families and/or property in the US.
- fredfoobar 6y agoAre you telling me that the 85000 jobs this saves will go to the millions of unemployed (low skilled) workers who will learn learn to code and manage the codebase at some company? Huh, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe they'll hire 3 or 4 of the unemployed folks to replace each h1b so that they can "group code", it might work. Also, LOVE your logical reasoning that went from "H1-B is abused a lot" => "Ban it".
- noobermin 6y agoSome of these make no real sense, like L1 and J1 visas, which are so few and uncommon and are often granted to individuals. J1's for example are for researchers coming abroad to collaborate with scientists here, there isn't a real argument that J1's are taking jobs from anyone else that I can tell. Not that anyone should be travelling at all this year but one would have to see if they get extended after covid dies down. L1s also look like they're geared towards essentially overseas managers moving to the US, particularly in the case of a single international company moving their executives around physically.
- GhostVII 6y agoJ1 visas are what all the tech companies use for interns from Canada. Technically you aren't allowed to work under a J1 visa, but everyone seems to be doing that anyways - tech companies will always say that you are going to be treated just like a full-time employee during the interview, and then say you are only in the US for training when applying for the visa.
- noobermin 6y agoSo may be I'm showing my ass here but I'm an academic. Our group was planning on collaborating with a French group who regularly performs nature-tier scientific work and we were planning on exchanging a graduate student and having them get their degree here, but if this holds it looks like they won't be able to do that. I don't doubt there are abuses (look up the thread, I see some iffyness around H1B's but the program itself being corrupt I don't think is true) but they're going to hurt everyone to score political hits for right wing xenophobes. Look, my honest opinion is the abuses are generally bad, especially for immigrants who are being put in bad situations which because yet another thing the companies have as leverage over them, but then the people who should be targeted are the companies who are abusing the system, not the programs themselves which hurts everyone, especially the immigrants.
- Jommi 6y agoWell you're not completely truthful here. Yes you can work under J1, its an internship or traineeship visa. J-1 in general is related to learning tho. But there is nothing against doing something for money.
- kache_ 6y agoThis is great news for Canadians who would like to move and work in America. A lot less competition
- noncoml 6y agoXenophobia is a bitch. A few years ago I experienced an atrial fibrillation while exercising, so I called an ambulance, as I didn't know what was happening to me and thought that that was the end. Once in the ambulance the paramedic started asking me where I am from and if I came in on one of "those visas". I was afraid I was about to die, and this fucker was being xenophobic.
- rantwasp 6y agothis is a textbook example of when someone should lose their job on the spot
- 2ion 6y agoBecause somebody's feelings were hurt? That's a useless argument to make against a professional who's basically effective at his job and very useful to society. The US is useless at civil rights these days precisely because it's all between "my feels" and straight out looting. Conditioned knee jerking all over the place.
- noncoml 6y agoI agree with you. Unless it can be proven that he provided sub-par care because I was a foreigner, which I am pretty sure that he didn't, then there is absolutely no case for losing his job, or even be warned. It's good to talk about our feelings and try to be considered to each other, but we should put facts and reason above feelings, which are not objective, otherwise we are doomed as society. Having said that, if I would see my employee talk to a customer like this, I would definitely ask them to be more professional and discreet. Either here, in US, or back in my home country, where I think xenophobia is worse.
- Thorentis 6y agoCompanies only care about feelings because of profit, not because they actually care about the social issues. Hurting customer feelings = potential loss of customer = loss of profit.
- victor106 6y agoI am not exactly sure how this would help people working in tech (and other tech related areas like business analysts, PM's etc.,) This makes it easy for companies to outsource work. When all employees are remote what's the value in bringing someone onshore? And once jobs are outsourced I don't think they will come back. So this could be marginally beneficial for onshore workers or it could be very bad.
- remote_phone 6y agoAnyone who thinks this is good for the US is stupid. In the era of remote working, all this will do it hasten the retreat of software engineering from the US. Facebook and Google do not care where their employees live, they want the best in the world. This will just mean that jobs will truly flee the US. Right now the US is winning because of such a high concentration of talented software engineers compared to the rest of the world. It’s the same reason why there is only one Hollywood, the same goes for Silicon Valley. If you prevent people from coming here, the top companies will find them in their own countries and then those are jobs lost forever. And then the drain begins. This is a stupid self-defeating move by a self-defeating president.
- theduder99 6y agoFacebook and Google could have converted their entire software dev workforce to Indians in India any time they wanted. But they didn't, I wonder why hmmmmm.
- remote_phone 6y agoBecause all the best Indian software engineers went to US grad schools and then went to Silicon Valley. It sounds like you don’t live in Silicon Valley.
- rhexs 6y agoThis sounds incredibly racist. All the best Indian engineers went to Silicon Valley?
- remote_phone 6y agoHow on earth is that racist? Just throwing that word around worthlessly is what is wrong with this world right now.
- juskrey 6y agoBTW any horror stories about H1B people stealing good jobs from locals?
- somurzakov 6y agoif US bans H-1Bs these jobs wont go to americans, these jobs will just be offshored. Large american enterprises already have gigantic offices outside US to manage IT/midoffice/backoffice or have relationships with contractor firms like Cognizant. It is so much easier to send one/two americans as expats to India/East Europe to manage outsourced staff and the trend will just accelerate.
- seibelj 6y agoSimple solution - auction off the H1B visas. This will ensure only the most needed, highest-value employees get it. Works with any number of visas. I fail to see why this easy, simple fix that also earns money for the government is not applied.
- bguillet 6y agoBecause then no small company can compete with the big ones in the auction...
- QuixoticQuibit 6y agoReserve an allotment for smaller companies using the existing lottery system.
- rhexs 6y agoIf your small company needs H1bs to survive, it doesn’t sound like a very sound business in the first place.
- boruto 6y agoIt is not small companies per se, But a mechanical company can never pay equal to FANG.They do require niche engineering skills. What about academics and non-profits?
- dzink 6y agoThis could be a knock-out punch for many US universities. H1B is the visa International students pursue after paying full out of state tuition to colleges here.
- boruto 6y agoHasn't covid already done that. I think we are going to see a high upsurge in competition for masters in my home country. Which is very good.
- licebmi__at__ 6y agoWith all the push for remote work, won't that also accelerate these jobs leaving US? Well, good for us outside the US.
- MangoCoffee 6y agoi have no dog in this fight but the comments in this thread... the amount of layoffs and unemployment since covid 19. this move is not to please you. it is to please the American people. only employers will care. the middle/working class American won't care (this is the biggest voting bloc that Trump needs) this is a persuasion for Nov.
- austincheney 6y agoMy common sense frustration here is how can the US possibly have a critical shortage of developers on languages that are 20 to 50 years old? We have the third highest population in the world and claim to have excellent education, and these are high paying jobs at 2x-3x the national average yearly income. So what qualifies the shortage? Is it like agriculture where Americans are too entitled for the work? Are Americans viewed as generally too low quality?
- joubert 6y ago“Foreign nationals account for 81 percent of the full-time graduate students in electrical engineering, 79 percent in computer science, 75 percent in industrial engineering, 69 percent in statistics, 63 percent in mechanical engineering, 59 percent in civil engineering, and 57 percent in chemical engineering.” — https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2019/02/americas-stem-crisis-threatens-our-national-security/ https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2019/02/americas-stem-cri...
- noobermin 6y agoCollege courses aren't necessarily zero sum if SV would considering hiring from state universities.
- joubert 6y agoThanks. The reason I quoted this statistic is because I was surprised that there aren’t more Americans interested in taking advantage of the excellent education in STEM. Could it also tell us something about interest in the field generally? We also see significant immigrant ratios in entrepreneurial ventures: "Immigrants are “almost twice as likely” as native-born Americans to become entrepreneurs, according to the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation." --- https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/10/25/55-of-americas-billion-dollar-startups-have-immigrant-founder/#3b634ba448ee https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/10/25/55-of...
- NotSammyHagar 6y agoOf course the bay area does hire tons of state university hires. I'm one of them. My first job was a fang. My undergrad wasn't in the top 100, my grad was maybe in the top 50, not sure but probably #50 ;-). I did a lot of programming in school, I practiced interview questions before I went. I've always been puzzled why other people run into this wall and can't break through.
- fsociety 6y agoHonestly I’m so tired of this shit. I can’t leave the US without the risk of not being able to come back, and my Mom is in a different country in a high risk category for COVID-19. If she is infected and hospitalized, I have to quit my job and leave my home to spend last moments with her. Fuck Trump.
- x87678r 6y agoReminder of the top H1B employers. Its not about high tech workers in SV. https://www.h1bdata.org/employers https://www.h1bdata.org/employers Employer Name Employees Hired (All Years) Infosys Limited 182,945 Tata Consultancy Services Limited 102,722 Deloitte Consulting Llp 65,976 Wipro Limited 63,354 Accenture Llp 51,360 Ibm India Private Limited 47,839 Capgemini America Inc 40,954 Microsoft Corporation 40,828 Ernst Young Us Llp 38,631 Cognizant Technology Solutions Us Corp 34,138
- fredfoobar 6y agoShut them down.
- progers7 6y agoThis is for all years, but the numbers for 2019 seem to indicate SV will be affected: https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.asp... Google is #8. Amazon, Facebook, Apple are in the top 20. I don't know how accurate this list is, but I am worried for my colleagues.
- x87678r 6y agoActually that site is interesting, if you add up the Bay Area it would be the #1 region. https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=WC https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Category.as...
- shuckles 6y agoYour argument would be more convincing if Microsoft wasn't on the list. Even by the evidence you present, _both_ high tech employers are large H1-B consulting firms would be impacted.
- greatwhitenorth 6y agoIn this thread, people who have no clue about how H1B works are making dumb comments (both for and against) with such confidence. Before some one asks me, I was a H1B visa holder and know how the system works. It makes me think how many such people are commenting in other threads that they've no clue about. Never ever follow any advice from a HN thread is a good rule to follow.
- noncoml 6y agoMaybe, but your comment doesn't help much either. If you think someone made an erroneous comment, it would be good to correct them by replying to it, or just summarize the common misconceptions and share your expertise in a top level comment. Saying that people are making dumb comments, I know how it works, but then not following up, is not in the spirit of HN
- greatwhitenorth 6y agoMy point was to make people go do their own research and not believe what some random person writes (including me). If some one doesn't want to know the truth and here only for spicy half-truths/lies, it's up to them. Don't give me the spirit of HN crap, this is just another website.
- AndrewKemendo 6y agoAll data indicate there is no shortage of US Citizens that could fill STEM positions and that H1-B holders on average make well below market rate. Outright ban is the wrong tool and I can't imagine that this is a reasoned policy response to a well understood abuse of wage-arbitrage. The right answer would be to mandate comparable wages for H1-B immigrants as for median employee with the same experience/tenure etc... "A comprehensive literature review, in conjunction with employment statistics, newspaper articles, and our own interviews with company recruiters, reveals a significant heterogeneity in the STEM labor market: the academic sector is generally oversupplied, while the government sector and private industry have shortages in specific areas." https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem-surplus-yes-and-yes.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-ste... "Our examination shows that the STEM shortage in the United States is largely overblown. Guestworker programs are in need of reform, but any changes should make sure that guestworkers are not lower-paid substitutes for domestic workers." https://bloustein.rutgers.edu/new-analysis-finds-no-shortage-of-stem-workers-in-the-united-states/ https://bloustein.rutgers.edu/new-analysis-finds-no-shortage... "Sixty percent of H-1B positions certified by the U.S. Department of Labor are assigned wage levels well below the local median wage for the occupation." https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/ https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wa...
- michaelmrose 6y agoYour thoughts are right on but the right thing to do is make it trivial for people with sought after skills to become citizens so we can benefit from their expertise at the same time as eliminating H1-B exploitation instead of trying to fix said exploitation in some complex fashion that itself is likely to be gamed. If you make the knowledge worker that any country ought to want a citizen he will naturally demand a market wage.
- addicted 6y agoSo 60% draw salaries that are lower than the 50%th earner in that occupation. In other words, they draw salaries that are largely in line with the occupation, although slightly on the lower end. I suspect if you now do the calculation after adding the fees companies are required to pay the government, along with the lawyers fees most companies have to pay for an H1B visa holder, both of which in most cases will be closer to $10k per year, the H1B earners will be completely in line with the occupation they are employed in.
- vishakh82 6y agoSo many people here are celebrating this order due to its supposed abstract benefits but are somehow unaware of the its cruelty. So many visa holders in this country will be unable to leave and enter the country for the foreseeable future. If they have sick parents abroad they will not be able to visit them or, in the most tragic circumstances, say goodbye in person. It won't matter whether someone is a world-class researcher with extremely niche skills or database administrator using commodity technology. They will live in anxiety, fear and uncertainty. One wonders how many proponents of these measures would be willing to uproot their lives and leave the place they call home at a moment's notice. Life is about get a lot worse for hundreds of thousands of hard-working, highly-educated immigrants and there are comparatively few who will shed a tear for them.
- koolba 6y ago> So many people here are celebrating this order due to its supposed abstract benefits but are somehow unaware of the its cruelty. To be blunt, a nation's citizens and permanent residents' rights to economic prosperity outweigh any temporary worker's right to continued employment. Yes it may be viewed as cruel in the individual case, but the point of these visas are not to provide a vehicle for those workers to come live in the USA. They're meant to fill a need for companies that cannot find qualified workers. In a country facing a staggering unemployment rate, continued job losses, and possible long term recession, it'd be malfeasance on the part of any public official to magnify the problem by allowing more workers to enter and compete against its own permanent residents. It's not pretty. It's reality.
- michaelmrose 6y agoI think this is called the single lump of labor fallacy where there is a fixed number of jobs to compete for and by allowing immigrants to come in and take some of them the citizens are collectively poorer for it. In actuality additional workers demand lots of things themselves that create net jobs. If more people within the carrying capacity of the environment/structures decreased economic prosperity every country in the world would be looking to shrink their birthrate as much as possible so that the decreasing population could have an increasingly large share of the fixed prosperity. We know of course that the reverse is true.
- pramttl 6y agoI can see how some people see this as positive but the premise that a talented and hard working foreign worker takes a job away from a citizen is short-sighted. Zoom out a little and instead of a talented and hardworking foreign employee taking a job you will see (on an average) that they help grow or expand projects and companies that opens door to hiring more people. Not only do they pay tax here and support social security benefits that many enjoy, they also help businesses survive and grow and help them stay competitive in a global market. I'm not calling for open doors to everyone, this certainly needs a balanced approach. However, with such suspensions I think we seem to be going one extreme path. Global talent has helped develop industries and businesses here. Increasing restrictions to this extent and suspending these visas is going to push this talent out and promising businesses who want to get the best talent to work with them, will not-immediately but definitely follow their way out too. I hope the people who are celebrating this, at-least for a few minutes, come out of the myopic view and look at the long term economic consequences.
- hysan 6y agoIf you step out of the tech (STEM) bubble, you’ll see that this is going to have a lot of collateral damage. There are niche industries where H-1B is an actual necessity. I know that what people complain about, especially on a tech centric site like HN, is how it’s used in the development industry, but I hope that people remember that there is a world outside of tech that this negatively impacts.
- codelord 6y agoDisclaimer: I'm an immigrant. There are companies like Cognizant/InfoSys/Tata/... whose business model is based on abusing the H1B system, and that's obviously wrong and I'm quite surprised they get away with it. I'm not defending that. To those who broadly argue against skilled visas, consider this: Most H1B immigrants are between 20-30 age range. The prime age to join the workforce. Think how much investment you have to make on a child's health care and education to make them into a highly skilled workforce. It would at least cost you 1$M and probably much more. Now all these immigrants have learned your language, passed job interviews, and are competing to come to your country to give you 1$M and help your economy. Why would you not want that? People seem to think that number of jobs is a limited constant and if you stop immigrants that will have a positive effect on the economy. But in reality companies can simply just scale. If they have more workforce they can do more. Things get done faster and they just make more profit. Stopping immigration obviously would dent the economical growth. Never mind that many top tech companies in the US were founded by immigrants or children of immigrants. To those who say we must invest in local workforce, I wonder why would you have to stop immigration to start investing in local workforce? As if allowing immigration would reduce the amount of money for investment, while in reality immigrants pay taxes. I personally have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes so far. I'd be happy if this money was used to educate the American workforce. However I know that it doesn't. I would like to see that change.
- SomeoneFromCA 6y agoIt is very strange that people in this comment section shout "nationalism, BAD" when someone says that skilled people should stay in their own country and potentially help these countries to grow out of poverty, and statements like the one you just made - essentially rob these country of talented people and bring them into US - is somehow not nationalistic and good.
- codelord 6y agoI left my country to escape a totalitarian regime. I think just because you are born in a place doesn't mean you have the responsibility to completely sacrifice your life. Humans collectively have an obligation to help lift poor countries out of poverty. The question is are you against immigration because you genuinely care about the poverty in my country?
- aparsons 6y agoTerrible idea. Upping the salary requirement for H1-B achieves the goal of using it only for highly-skilled workers. Instead, now employers have to make do with bootcamp grads instead of foreign engineers at lower level positions, hurting businesses.
- NotSammyHagar 6y agoYes, thanks, that summarizes the whole situation. Just make min salaries 200k, it could push up us salaries a little, but would mean many or most of those people like those laid off from us universities working in it would not have lost their jobs.
- downerending 6y agoIt does seem like the main point of H1Bs would be to make use of highly-skilled workers. We have plenty of low-skill workers already--we don't need more.
- cylinder 6y agois this satirical? that's entirely the point, they have to train Americans rather than hiring foreigners. the entire point is to benefit WORKERS, not businesses.
- jdean677 6y agoThis will definitely expedite tech jobs moving to India. At current market rates, companies can afford to hire 3-5 engineers in India compared to 1 engineer in US with equivalent interview standards. I already see this happening with Amazon(with new hyderabad campus), Google & Uber.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- addicted 6y agoI’m curious. HN has largely agreed that the current pandemic showed that remote work is absolutely doable. At the same time, people are claiming that the H1B visa, which allows immigrants to work in the US at largely American salaries, are taking away American jobs. So the stated solution is to do away with the visa and send those people back to their home countries. So why does anyone believe that when those people go back to their home countries, their employers would choose to hire someone else instead of keeping the same people hired at a fraction of the cost? I mean, people seem to think that companies would be unhappy about paying someone 75k/yr who was costing them over 200k/yr (salary + payroll taxes, etc) in the US. It makes absolutely no sense that the job would go to an American. The likelihood is that the job would remain with the same person but now they would pay taxes and spend dollars in their home countries at a fraction of the cost.
- satya71 6y agoYep. This is already happening. As US becomes a less inviting destination for the best talent, the talent will find home elsewhere. This might be beginning of the end of US tech dominance.
- 2ion 6y agoThat's a long road. Very few tech firms generate the kind of money from tech abroad like many US firms do. You won't be earning 300k in a non-US company in Germany very very likely when looking at similarly-levelled roles (to exclude high-powered roles) compared to the US. You'll be looking at 1/3rd the total comp max in many cases and that'll already be a very good salary in the field. And possibly higher taxes, no effective investment-based retirement schemes, and other disadvantages. US firms have a very long way to fall before they get even the least unattractive, relatively. A young person emigrating from Germany to the US working in a (now) good tech job there making 150,000 plus benefits will be out-earning their age cohort back in Germany 2-3x at the start of their career. Heck even at 120,000 that's likely 2-3x what a somebody with a Bachelor's here would get. That's a tremendous difference no career-focussed person would shy away from wanting.
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- dk8996 6y agoI worked in the finance industry, IT side. I can say that these work Visas are abused in that industry. Less so in tech and startup space. I think having a min salary that's 2x average for the job would also solve this. I'm will to see what type of data this pause provides.
- ojbyrne 6y agoMost tech companies are WFH right now, so if the government does this, there'll probably be lots of work for foreign lawyers setting up subsidiaries in other countries so that all the people affected can literally work from Home.
- supercanuck 6y agoHere are the top 10 employers of H1-B. With the exception of MSFT, all of these are "consulting firms" or "service" providers. So while everyone is having "ideological, values" based discussions, here is what is really happening Employer Name Employees Hired (All Years) Infosys Limited 182,945 Tata Consultancy Services Limited 102,722 Deloitte Consulting Llp 65,976 Wipro Limited 63,354 Accenture Llp 51,360 Ibm India Private Limited 47,839 Capgemini America Inc 40,954 Microsoft Corporation 40,828 Ernst Young Us Llp 38,631 Cognizant Technology Solutions Us Corp 34,138
- bdcravens 6y agoTo directly turn labor costs into a profit center, you need a business model that allows you to bill per unit of work. Perhaps this is where H1-B restrictions need to be focused. No third-party employment.
- bdcravens 6y agoIt won't happen, but it would nice to see a comprehensive plan to address the talent shortage that the H-1B is designed to address. Disadvantages faced by people of color is front of the mind right now; it's the perfect time to announce a detailed plan of training and education that would accomplish 2 purposes.
- golemiprague 6y ago2 weeks ago people said there are not enough blacks in this industry, 2 months ago that there are not enough women, so if there are so many people from the US who should be in this industry and are not just because of racism and sexism maybe it will be good to have less immigrants from India who happen to be with a dark complexion and tend to have more women developers. This will leave a lot of place for local US women and people with dark complexion and the racist/sexists companies will have to hire them instead.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- grad_ml 6y agoI guess there won't be any protests like muslim ban, this time.
- tra112233 6y agoI am on H1B visa currently, one of those with high paying jobs in my current geographic area. I did my Masters in EE and have been on H1B since 2008, waiting for my GC, which may or may not happen. I want to ask a question to those who feel that I should not be here. Why is it wrong for someone like me to move from my home country legally as a student, then decide to work and live here, since it is legal and that option is provided by the government. My employer is also willing to bear all costs of making that happen. Of course, USA is a great country, maybe the greatest, and people want to live and work here. Is it wrong to have such a desire, and go about fulfilling it in a legal way? I am genuinely interested to know, since I get the feeling that folks like me aren't exactly welcome, and would like to understand why that is. On the ethical side of things, I have wondered if I have denied an American citizen a good life.I get the feeling that maybe I have, by the mere fact of me existing and being present in this country, since I haven't misrepresented, lied or cheated anyone to get my job. I have no doubt that given enough time, my company will find someone like me, but how long it will take is anyone's guess.
- Ghjklov 6y agoI don't have a strong opinion on whether you should or shouldn't be here, but I wanted to give a different perspective. It's really only tangentially related to this whole discussion. A lot of Americans have been taught that the U.S is the land of opportunity, a place where anyone can come and through hard work can make something out of themselves. What people probably imagine when they think about this is poor immigrants coming and starting from the bottom, starting in food service jobs or doing janitorial work or something and working their way up. That's the American dream they were told about. None of them would imagine that through an H1B visa, we'd be allowing some of the most highly educated immigrants from other countries to come and immediately work in high level positions with salaries of 6 or even 7 figures. I find it understandable that some amount of Americans feel that this is wrong and that they were told a lie.
- tra112233 6y agoThanks for that perspective. I understand that it can appear unfair for someone whose ancestors had to build everything from scratch, to watch folks start leading a luxurious life, right from the moment they land here.
- black_13 6y agoIf you really need ppl to do the work make them here. Lots of ppl are available currently.
- sys_64738 6y agoYou need highly skilled immigrants to pay for taxes and healthcare+SSA for the economy and those retired. If you don't fund retirement programmes then you're in trouble.
- femiagbabiaka 6y agowe need to get rid of the executive order or at least severely limit its scope. both Obama and Trump have abused it -- presidents should not be able to hand down sweeping regulatory change like this at the drop of a hat without going through the legislature.
- jakeogh 6y agoBy abuse do you mean use? If not, O admitted he was doing something unconstutional with it, numerious times. Which T example are you thinking of? Many laws are written to deligate rule making authority to the executive branch, clearly the president has ultimate authority there. Perhaps you want the legslative branch to write more specific language?
- femiagbabiaka 6y agoThe constitution is not the end all be all —- I’m saying that the use of executive orders to accomplish partisan policy objectives is overreach by the executive branch and should be curtailed. I don’t care much if it’s the legislative or judicial branch that does it.
- jakeogh 6y agoI cant understand your comment unless you define partisan. If the legslative branch deligates the rule making to the executive branch, then take it up with the legslative branch... right? Blaiming the executive branch seems pointless. Am I missing something? The Constitution is the law of the land. Are you referring to the Magna Carta? Humans have inalienable rights, can we agree? I believe people have the inaleinable right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"... someone could call that a partisan policy objective.
- femiagbabiaka 6y agoRights protected by the constitution are definitely not partisan. I don’t agree with some of the rhetoric in this oped wrt COVID, but I do like the case it lays out: https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/5/executive-orders-are-not-laws/ https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/5/executive-orde...
- noip 6y agoI think H1B visas should be obliterated. One of the justifications is that they bring in international talent to fill in "shortages" in America. However, according this article by the Harvard Business Review: https://hbr.org/2017/05/the-h-1b-visa-debate-explained https://hbr.org/2017/05/the-h-1b-visa-debate-explained - There is mixed evidence that there are actually shortages in STEM - People are graduating from STEM fields at a rather high rate than in the past, but only half of them end up utilizing their degree; in sectors such as IT, one reason being why graduates aren't entering the field is due to a lack of job openings - Despite all the clamor about "shortages," some STEM fields pay embarrassingly low, and in fact pay STEM workers less than they have in the past - There is no requirement that entities show proof of workforce shortage before hiring workers on H-1B visas - Some workplaces have already had American workers train in their H1-B visa replacements and then were out of a job Not in the article, but some of my own experiences having been in the STEM field - Many internationals seeking to get hired in the US STEM force don't actually have the "everyday technology" that the US uses, such as in molecular biology labs; this means quite a lot goes into training H1-B visa holders. Couple that with poor English-speaking skills. I found myself having to explain to an H1-B visa holder what a "pen" was, or a "shelf." Granted, some H1-B visa holders underwent formal education in the US, obtaining PhDs and whatnot, so you'd imagine their English would be better, however... - Many countries look down on the US. I have worked for many foreign employers in STEM, and have been insulted just for being an American, and their views of America are largely stereotyped (Americans love guns, they eat hamburgers and pizza and are fat, etc.) - It changes the workplace culture; I've worked in a variety of STEM environments that had a lot of internationals, and more than once I was out-grouped for being an American. I have had opportunities closed off to me simply because my group's sense of belonging was rooted in being "non-American." This was detrimental to my aspirations in entering the STEM field as an American. I don't believe there is a shortage in STEM. The fact that it's hard to even get a well-paying job in STEM, especially tenure positions in STEM, and that once you do land a STEM position you can face discrimination for being an American in AMERICA, H1B visas should be obsolete. Get rid of the internationals. Focus on your American workforce and create incentives to enter STEM. Create a better system for learning math, and inspiring aspirations in science Create environments that will nurture American students instead of block their opportunities. Give Americans a chance to contribute to their economy instead of shoveling money down the pockets of people who don't even like America or Americans and would go back home if they could.
- known 6y agoIndians are running an Organized Mafia in America https://archive.vn/XTZ5f https://archive.vn/XTZ5f
- stunt 6y agoThere are solutions to the problems we discuss these days. We have experts and researchers who are dedicated to find better solutions. But sadly, Politics are focused to win the election and next elections. Populism and non-populism, left and right, social-networks and media, we all made it so hard for experts and scientist to be heard and to be trusted. We are so loud that we are only hearing ourselves. We can talk non-sense with insufficient knowledge and call it open discussion.
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- amaajemyfren 6y agoIn the last few weeks many technology companies have been able to have their staff work remotely. I wonder what suspending Visas means in so far as remote working is a thing.