21 ms·

Russia lifts ban on Telegram

240 points by ComodoHacker 6y ago

alufers 6y ago
Does this mean that now Telegram will give the Russian government whatever they want, if they think it is "extremist"?
- katktv 6y ago
  Who knows. I personally don't think Durov will give his libertarian views up to the Russian government like that.
  - knodi 6y ago
    Blackmail.
- ZoomZoomZoom 6y ago
  Did we have any reason to believe Telegram wouldn't do it prior to unblocking?
- lightgreen 6y ago
  What would be the reason for Telegram to do so? Why it would give keys to Russian government but not for example UAE or USA? These unsubstantiated claims (like Telegram to send data to Russian gov) won’t help anybody.
f311a 6y ago
More than 550k of IPs are unbanned now: https://usher2.club/en/ https://usher2.club/en/ Basically, 95% of the blacklist.
miked85 6y ago
I would guess this means the gov't now has access to Telegram messages, one way or another.
- golergka 6y ago
  There's quite popular conspiracy theory in Russia that says that Telegram was FSB-backed project from the start, and the whole failed ban was implemented to promote it. However, there's still no concrete proof that government has backdoor access to it, so if they do, they're being very careful about it.
  - duxup 6y ago
    >However, there's still no concrete proof that government has backdoor access to it, so if they do, they're being very careful about it. Sadly I feel like that is a very real possibility for any software / hardware produced in any significantly non free country. It can happen in other countries, but the likelihood of you hearing about it seems much much higher. It's a sad situation as I don't like the idea of being suspicious by default of other developers / products simply because their country of origin, but I have trouble avoiding the obvious fact that even a well meaning developer / company based in those countries would / could easily be pressured into introducing some sort of access (doesn't matter how) and it's simply unlikely we'd know.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      ... produced in any country. I wonder if the money Crypto AG made will have been worth any future reputation cost for Zug's economy. https://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/wirtschaft/bund-stoppt-nachfolgefirma-der-zuger-crypto-ag-ld.1202213 https://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/wirtschaft/bund-stoppt-nachfo... "... verkaufte die Crypto AG im Auftrag des US-Geheimdienstes CIA und des deutschen Bundesnachrichtendienstes Jahrzehnte lang manipulierte Chiffriergeräte an diverse Staaten."
      - duxup 6y ago
        Like I said it can happen anywhere, but the likelihood and ease of it happening in less free countries seems significantly different. I don't believe any country means all countries are equivalent as far as the risks go. The amount of news / data about it will of course be higher in more free nations.
082349872349872 6y ago
What's the "12+" next to the date? Does that imply gov.ru also has NSFW subdomains? - Open up! Police! Your neighbours called. - Nu, so go next door. We didn't call for police, we called for ...
- chmod775 6y ago
  > What's the "12+" next to the date? Does that imply gov.ru also has NSFW subdomains? Might be a timezone? The most eastern part of Russia (cities such as Pevek, Anadyr) observes UTC+12.
  - Etheryte 6y ago
    Checking the source, the element has the id "age". Not sure what it implies one way or the other though.
    - chmod775 6y ago
      I don't think my timezone idea is particularly likely, not only because the site gives a Moscow address, but also because that (eastern) area of Russia is a backwater's backwater.
    - dunkelheit 6y ago
      Yes, probably the age rating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Internet_Restriction_Bill#Other_changes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Internet_Restriction_B...
- coolspot 6y ago
  It implies the content is not appropriate for kids. Like PG-13 in US. Every website and TV show in Russia must show age rating.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Some not as obvious as others. I'd never noticed it before on https://aif.ru https://aif.ru but now that I look the 16+ is way down in the footer bar. Sps))
slenk 6y ago
Backdoor-ed successfully?
bigdict 6y ago
The most likely reason is that Telegram is too convenient and too useful. Every agency in the government has an official account. The president’s spokesman uses it to communicate with members of the media. Most recently it was successfully used to disseminate guidance on COVID-19.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  > Most recently it was successfully used to disseminate guidance on COVID-19. Or propaganda, given the (credible) accusations against Russia on misinformation campaigns. edit: I'm referring to the fact that Telegram is the most popular service for German conspiracy myth spreaders (e.g. former stars Attila Hildmann and Xavier Naidoo), especially in regard to the COVID19 crisis. Unfortunately I'm unaware of decent English articles, but here's a good German starter: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/netzwelt/messengerdienst-telegram-wo-die-verschwoerungstheorien-spriessen,S0HDUq1 https://www.br.de/nachrichten/netzwelt/messengerdienst-teleg...
  - bigdict 6y ago
    Here’s the Moscow channel if you want to judge the content for yourself: https://t.me/COVID2019_official https://t.me/COVID2019_official
    - jmartrican 6y ago
      I love the logo of the knight on the horse stabbing the dog sized covid virus.
      - sb057 6y ago
        Based on the story and icon of St. George. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S.George_(Novgorod,_mid._14_c,_GTG).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S.George_(Novgorod,_...
      - aasasd 6y ago
loceng 6y ago
Could this be an attempt to baby step closer access to infiltrate to the Telegram team by presenting good will? As someone else commented this could have been agreed upon through blackmail. How are these systems ultimately safe guarded? Is it even possible while there are bad actors attempting to control?
- bigdict 6y ago
  Non-Russians often assume some sinister motive behind actions like that, but reality is much simpler. The authorities failed to shut Telegram down while making active use of it themselves. So now they are giving up because there’s not much point in continuing the efforts.
  - squarefoot 6y ago
    By doing so they would send the wrong message though "feel free to use it against us; we're neither closing nor monitoring it", which would be like shooting in their feet. Unless they're just pretending it. Every government fears what it cannot control, especially communications networks that could be used to subvert the status quo; this applies to all governments in all countries, including so called democratic ones. To me they're still actively monitoring it, and I'm 100% sure they have the means of shutting it down just in case of real necessity.
    - bigdict 6y ago
      I’m sure they are still actively monitoring, but I don’t think they have the means to surgically disable Telegram without shutting down all of internet in Russia. They’ve been trying unsuccessfully for the past few years.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      On the other hand: if you force people to use VPNs to use Telegram ... you're forcing people to learn to use VPNs. And if you're afraid of people talking about stuff without you knowing, the last thing you want it large parts of the population (or at least those parts you're interested in) using more encryption. Basically: you can't stop it, trying to stop it has negative side-effects, so stop trying.
bpolovko 6y ago
This is when I stop using it
- iso-8859-1 6y ago
  Why are you stopping? Because you think they collaborate with the FSB more now?
  - bpolovko 6y ago
    There is one certain thing - they are getting something out of that and they want people to use it. I'm not sure what exactly. They either found a backdoor or a struck a deal. Things like that aren't a joke in Russia. Mass control and surveillance is a real thing, there are many reports of people being put in jail for writing something against the government on Facebook or other platforms.
throwaway4666 6y ago
Let's be honest the real reason to use Telegram wasn't security, I mean whenever the topic comes up here moxie (or his advocates) pops up and tells us it's trash and we should all use signal instead. The real reason to use telegram is that it's miles away the best messenging program out there. It's as user friendly as whatsapp while having completely seamless desktop/mobile integration (something whatsapp and signal have failed to do), it only requires a phone number for the initial signup, and generally speaking it has all sorts of cool features and less bullshit than alternatives. Then there are the little things - you can create multiple accounts and switch seamlessly, you can delete whatever message from whomever for everyone without leaving a trace (if it bothers you just switch to secret chats), all links are listed in each convo, you have pretty much unlimited and unrestricted cloud storage, etc. Then you have all the gravy like cool tools for groupchat admin, channels, and bots of course. You can order a taxi or search up a book on scihub (bypassing countrywide blocking) with telegram. You can even do bizarre stuff like discover people around you or verify your identity on a service with telegram. Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA, frankly. If I really want secrecy I'll use Tor or Signal.
- luckylion 6y ago
  I'd add to that: actually native client, not just some slow Electron thing, you can scale the font in the client(!), easy to work with bot API, allows other clients to access their servers. The one thing that keeps me from using Telegram as my primary messenger is the low maximum line-width that makes it feel like you're on mobile even if you're using the desktop client. But UX, especially speed, is just amazing.
  - cordite 6y ago
    The native client also has benefits that don't come from electron and a javascript vm, being able to use 9 GB of swap and remaining performant!
  - kitsunesoba 6y ago
    More than just one native client, depending your platform, there are multiple clients! So if the official client doesn't do it for you, you've got a choice, and if you're so inclined you could even write your own! On macOS I use the semi-official Swift/Cocoa client instead of the main Qt-based one. Other messaging apps wouldn't be so bad if alternative clients were a possibility, because inevitably someone would build better clients. Messaging app platforms should have open APIs and welcome third party client devs, not chase them away.
MacSystem 6y ago
Did they make an agreement? Now the government got access to everything that goes through telegram?
- SXX 6y ago
  > Now the government got access to everything that goes through telegram? Nothing in Telegram ever had end-to-end encryption by default so you shouldn't really expect anything but private chats to be secure.
  - MacSystem 6y ago
    I see. I read that somewhere but never checked to make sure it's really so.
ardy42 6y ago
Translation (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Frkn.gov.ru%2Fnews%2Frsoc%2Fnews73050.htm https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...): > About Telegram Messenger > June 18, 2020 > We positively assess the readiness expressed by the founder of Telegram to counter terrorism and extremism. > By agreement with the Prosecutor General’s Office of the Russian Federation, Roskomnadzor removes requirements to restrict access to the Telegram messenger. > We are ready to cooperate with all Internet companies operating in the country to quickly suppress the spread of terrorist and extremist information, child pornography, and the promotion of suicide and drugs. > Currently, jointly with leading Russian and foreign Internet companies, on average weekly materials are removed: > - propagandizing suicidal behavior 2,500; > - extremist and terrorist nature 1,300; > - propagandizing drug use, about places of their purchase 800; > - with pornographic images of minors - 300.
dang 6y ago
We changed the url changed from https://rkn.gov.ru/news/rsoc/news73050.htm https://rkn.gov.ru/news/rsoc/news73050.htm. We have deep respect for other languages, but HN is an English language site, and submissions here need to be in English so people can read what they're discussing.
gdmka 6y ago
You guys aren't seeing the bigger picture. TG LLC got 1.7 bil USD with two rounds of investment. US based investors are returned 72% of original fund. Those 28% are 500 mil USD. It's rumored that TG CEO got 300 mil selling his share of VK, so in the end he returned all personal investment on TG development. Who's behind all those funds, private investors etc. How many of those are under US sanctions really? And now, upon failing to submit the reasonable paperwork even thought they had quite expensive and experienced lawyers, Pavel suddenly calls for unban in Russia. Like a week later a legislation appears and almost immediately after that the deal is done. Reconciliation happened unbelievably quick. Or his words have so much power now? Just think Crypto AG serving the purposes of BND and CIA when you talk about Telegram.
- octaveguin 6y ago
  So the most reasonable explanation is that Pavel is in a conspiracy with the Russian government and is living in exile as a cover huh? Sounds pretty complicated when a simpler answer would also exist.
  - gdmka 6y ago
    I don't feel like he's living in an exile. For starters, the citizenship that was acquired for $ 250k something is from Saint Kitts and Nevis, known for it's abuse of human rights. To me it's a classical double standard behavior. He's vocal on not being able to conduct business in Russia as he pleases and it's a clear violation in his purview. Never heard him being involved with fighting inequity of the new home country. Second of all, Saudi Arabia, the unofficial Telegram HQ, is tax exempt for hi-tech, but don't quote me on it.
    - LudwigNagasena 6y ago
      > For starters, the citizenship that was acquired for $ 250k something is from Saint Kitts and Nevis, known for it's abuse of human rights. To me it's a classical double standard behavior. Blame the UK and EU who allow visa-free travel with SKN but not with Russia and don’t sanction it. It is a country with a population of 50 000 people. The only reason it is not extremely poor is because its business model is giving citizenship to businessmen to avoid taxes and allow them to travel freely. Fighting an obviously lost fight against SKN and jeopardizing your whole life sounds even more stupid than fighting windmills.
octaveguin 6y ago
It's strange that whenever telegram comes up, there's an unfounded suspicion that it has some kind FSB/Russian government connection simply because it was developed by a Russian. This is insane and like pretty bigoted - not a good look for HN. Here's the guy that leads the company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov >In 2011, he was involved in a standoff with police in St. Petersburg when the government demanded the removal of opposition politicians' pages after the 2011 election to the Duma. He's living abroad because he's either not allowed or does not feel safe entering Russia. VK was taken from him pretty much over his principals not to do what HN just assume telegram does. Telegram was developed outside of Russia to avoid being beholden to them. The fact that Russia was actively blocking telegram should be proof enough. The reason they stopped is because when they did, they would accidentally blocked other services and it was kind of a disaster. They simply don't have the expertise to run their blocking campaign. It looked bad so they stopped. Russians are more than one-dimensional Putin-driven fake news generating bad guys.
- mdrachuk 6y ago
  What if they now have some way of pressuring him into doing it? Russian people are not one-dimensional. Russian government is.
- Avamander 6y ago
  > This is insane and like pretty bigoted - not a good look for HN. No, you're just projecting. This mindset of untrustworthy until proven otherwise is universally applied to all chat apps, from any country, it happens under pretty much every discussion of Facebook's Whatsapp and Messenger and it happens in discussions about WeiBo (and similar).
- maqp 6y ago
  >He's living abroad because he's either not allowed or does not feel safe entering Russia. He has since entered Russia. Also, Durov's warrant was dropped just two months after he went exile. Stop inventing things. >VK was taken from him pretty much over his principals not to do what HN just assume telegram does. HN isn't concerned over what he does, it's what capabilities he leaves himself and anyone who hacks his systems. If Durov really cared about his principles, he'd have deployed app-wide E2EE from the get go. He had the money to hire the people to do that. >Telegram was developed outside of Russia to avoid being beholden to them. Didn't stop it from being developed by non experts, almost equally bad considering there's now the equivalent in the backdoor that allows the server to read everyone's group messages. >The fact that Russia was actively blocking telegram should be proof enough If that's proof of Telegram's security, then the fact the ban was lifted means Telegram is now 100% compromised. So yeah, you have to make a choice here. >The reason they stopped is because when they did, they would accidentally blocked other services This is the actual reason they continued, and Telegram's security is not proven by the ban. They've had the capability to hack the server since day one. And if you disagree, you're either ill informed, or fooling yourself. If it's the former, start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fancy_Bear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fancy_Bear >Russians are more than one-dimensional Putin-driven fake news generating bad guys. It's very probable Durov isn't actively trying to uphold the oligarchy from abroad by continuing his military training in propaganda and position in the Russian society by retreating to an oppressive country like UAE under the disguise of exile just when chat platforms start to overtake social media sites. I think that's very improbable. But he's a useful fool for creating something that's trivial to hack, and that allows all intelligence establishments around the world to access Telegram's communication. We should've learned from Cambridge Analytica that ubiquitous E2EE by default is the only way to prevent future disasters. It's not like Durov can magically protect Telegram from all the state driven hacking organization and their insane budgets with no profit responsibility.
hnarn 6y ago
There's so much FUD here about how this must mean Telegram is now insecure, backdoored etc. I sure hope those voicing these opinions actually have used Telegram and understands how it works: - Telegram does log chats server-side if you want them to (to be able to see your chat history across devices). You don't have to. Telegram supports end-to-end encryption ("secret chats") with no logging -- as far as I know there is no proof that these chats are untrustworthy. - Telegram groups have never been sacred and they are deleted if they spread illegal information. This is not the same thing as leaking someone's personal chat history, which to my knowledge has still never been done. I'd be glad to be proven wrong on any of these counts, I use both Telegram and Signal and trust the latter more for obvious reasons (it's completely open source) -- but the fact that Telegram is not perfect in every way does not make it insecure by default.
- lucideer 6y ago
  > Telegram does log chats server-side if you want them to Trying to assume good faith here that this is accidental and not trying to deliberately mislead but the way this is phrased strongly implies that server-side logging is off-by-default. It is not. Nor are secret chats prompted or prominently advertised in the UI (it's the 2nd option when you go to create a new group, never seen when initiating new 1:1 conversations). I would wager most Telegram users don't know about secret chats, or if they have heard of them they probably assume they're on by default.
- shanecoin 6y ago
  > Telegram supports end-to-end encryption ("secret chats") with no logging -- as far as I know there is no proof that these chats are untrustworthy. The argument I've heard is that Telegram uses their own encryption protocol. The rule of thumb in cryptography is "don't roll your own crypto". The reason why that statement exists is because there are _countless_ examples of teams coming up with their own, new cryptographic mechanisms that either break (intentionally or not) or were written with a backdoor. People get incredibly clever when it comes to breaking encryption. AFAIK the only way to be on the right side of this argument is to use a time-tested encryption protocol. However, there are even instances where some protocols have been live and in production for x years before discovering that a backdoor has been in the code since day one.
shaggie76 6y ago
Some of our game servers were impacted by this and we ended up having to do elaborate message forwarding for Russian players. I find it staggering that it took 2 years to be lifted given how much collateral damage it caused.
SXX 6y ago
Russia never actually intended to fully block Telegram. Otherwise they would just make Google kick it from Russian version of App Store and Google play, but they never did it. I'm not for any of conspiracy stories, but we need to be clear about this ban story.
- lightgreen 6y ago
  At least Apple rejected RKN request to block Telegram. This is a random article (in a Russian) about RKN threatening to block App Store in Russia if they refuse to remove Telegram from the App Store. https://www.the-village.ru/village/city/news-city/313713-rkn-vs-appstore https://www.the-village.ru/village/city/news-city/313713-rkn...
  - SXX 6y ago
    Both Google and Apple do block apps for certain countries though especially those used for distriution of copyrighted materials. Russia certainly can force Apple to comply if there was wuch a goal. Or at least RKN can just break push notifications for everyone. I'm not the one for conspiracy theories though. Most likely they never intended to actually block it simply because they are using it themselfs and that's just it.
    - lightgreen 6y ago
      > Russia certainly can force Apple to comply if there was wuch a goal. Or at least RKN can just break push notifications for everyone. Obviously, they are not mad enough to break everyone's phones just to block Telegram. > I'm not the one for conspiracy theories though. Yeah, that was my thought. You did not provide any evidence to the claim that RKN only pretended they want to block Telegram, while there's a lot of evidence they actually wanted to block: they blocked millions of IP addresses and they threatened Apple to block App Store. > simply because they are using it themselfs If they really wanted to use it themselves, they would not block AWS and DO.
ibudiallo 6y ago
As a consequence, my website is now available in Russia. https://isitblockedinrussia.com/?host=idiallo.com https://isitblockedinrussia.com/?host=idiallo.com The issue was that to block Telegram they had banned a few IP blocks, around 10 million ips[1]. These blocks were used in both Digital Ocean and AWS. So if your website or service used any of these blocks, it wouldn't be available in russia. [1]: https://idiallo.com/blog/website-dont-work-in-russia https://idiallo.com/blog/website-dont-work-in-russia
m0zg 6y ago
It never was actually successfully blocked. I was in Russia while it was blocked - it worked OK, just seemed slower than usual. A lot of people use Telegram there, for both messaging and for reading the news outside the entirely government-controlled mainstream using "channels". Nowadays even some government agencies have their own channels on it, in spite of the "ban". There's a saying in Russia: the strictness of Russian laws is compensated by optionality of compliance.
- lightgreen 6y ago
  > Nowadays even some government agencies have their own channels on it, in spite of the "ban". There's a saying in Russia: the strictness of Russian laws is compensated by optionality of compliance. Technically speaking there was no law prohibiting telegram for citizens or government officials. “Optionality of compliance” does not apply here because no user of telegram broke the law.
arzeth 6y ago
That's because on 2020-07-01 there will be a voting on constitutional changes. And Putin would like to give us a (false) hope that our life is going to become better and put his government in a good light. Context: In Russia we have a limit of 2 terms for presidents. Putin and his mafia don't like it, so he decided to be nullified and get additional privilegies (e.g. after he decides to resign, he will be able to dismiss a president). Putin has even already signed the changes because he knows we are too scared of jail to protest IRL: even if you are protesting alone, police will likely beat & fine you (even if you are a girl or just holding a BLANK board) for an unauthorized demonstration. In one video the election chief almost laughed while saying everything is already decided and legitimate and they just want our opinion. But for additional legitimization Putin set the voting. Probably he doesn't want the situation as in Venezuela. And he wants to increase his ego (his ego is very high, just compare inauguration of him and Obama/Trump). He paid many famous people for short videos where they support some part of the changes, typical example: "I will vote yes because I like animals!" although we already have laws for animals. And none of those videos mention that Putin would be the president forever. Only half people are even aware of this change (and many are forced by employers to make a photo that they voted yes). Oh, and our constitution doesn't work at all anyway. Gov-t people laugh at you when you mention anything from it. And there were news several years ago that a journalist got a suspended sentence (условный срок) of 4 years for extremism because he quoted the constitution. P.S. >97% of Russian IT people seem to hate Putin according to the comments I read everyday. And Durov should hate him much more because Putin's mafia stole VK (that's our Facebook with nice UI/UX and awesome search) from his control.
dsabanin 6y ago
One of the big reasons was also the fact that they failed to ban it. They could not enforce it at all, without blocking half of the websites, because of Telegram's clever networking shenanigans, so everyone was still been able to use it (without vpn or anything). Even russian government officials have official Telegram channels. All the "news" sources quote Telegram channels all the time. All pro-gov celebrities and stuff. It was not a ban, but a farce that made the regime look like incapable fools. Not that they are not, but they don't want to emphasize that so much. Not that they don't, but at least not make it that obvious. Not that it isn't, but...
- bilekas 6y ago
  > One of the big reasons was also the fact that they failed to ban it Of course. So now that it's not banned, its no longer a tech defined as against the system. But It doesn't matter really. They don't need to have anything to send you away in Russia.
- jojobas 6y ago
  They couldn't block it even taking down half of all websites, including Github. At the same time government officials kept using it, including those in charge of blocking it. It was an "old man yells at cloud" travesty from the beginning.
- maqp 6y ago
  The problem is, people think Telegram ban means Telegram is secure from Russian state actors. The truth is, Russia employs hackers of their own that hack Telegram's servers without trace and read messages of anyone they find interesting.
luminadiffusion 6y ago
Russia did not lift this ban because they changed their stance on encryption...
- lightgreen 6y ago
  This in an unsubstantiated claim which does not help anybody.
nicbou 6y ago
> The company refused to hand over encryption keys, arguing that it would violate users’ rights to privacy and would not help weed out terrorists. Take note on how it feels to read this line when it's about a country that isn't yours. When the United States pushes the same argument, the rest of the world's privacy is at risk. This is why European governments increasingly try to keep their data on European soil, and to trust businesses bound to EU laws.
noxer 6y ago
Articles: Anything about Telegram Discussion: crypto baaad/all chats logged/insecure by default etc. etc. Yes we got it you don't like telegram. Use whatever and move on. There is no need to constantly come up with the same BS. Cloud chats are in the cloud (which you probably hate too ryt?) and no, they are not e2e encrypted. Calling it a server side logging is just straight out FUD. Also pretty sure 99+% of all telegram user never use the secret chat feature because telegram is mostly so useful because of all the rest. And people use it for all the rest (large community groups/channels/bots/games). I'm sure more than 99% of my telegram messages go to groups that are public or semi public (like you would find the link on another platform if you are part of the community there). Its absolutely unwanted to have any kind of nonsense encryption for such groups. Yet all the feature telegram can provide because it does not have nonsense encryption, like fast server side search or link to messages visible on the web, are the reason I and other use it. Just like y'all use hacker news and don't mind that your comments are "server side logged". tl;dr A tool isn't broken or insecure because it does not what you want it to do. It's just the wrong tool for you.

240 points by ComodoHacker 6y ago

alufers 6y ago

Does this mean that now Telegram will give the Russian government whatever they want, if they think it is "extremist"?

katktv 6y ago
Who knows. I personally don't think Durov will give his libertarian views up to the Russian government like that.
- knodi 6y ago
  Blackmail.
ZoomZoomZoom 6y ago
Did we have any reason to believe Telegram wouldn't do it prior to unblocking?
lightgreen 6y ago
What would be the reason for Telegram to do so? Why it would give keys to Russian government but not for example UAE or USA? These unsubstantiated claims (like Telegram to send data to Russian gov) won’t help anybody.

f311a 6y ago

More than 550k of IPs are unbanned now: https://usher2.club/en/ https://usher2.club/en/ Basically, 95% of the blacklist.

miked85 6y ago

I would guess this means the gov't now has access to Telegram messages, one way or another.

golergka 6y ago
There's quite popular conspiracy theory in Russia that says that Telegram was FSB-backed project from the start, and the whole failed ban was implemented to promote it. However, there's still no concrete proof that government has backdoor access to it, so if they do, they're being very careful about it.
- duxup 6y ago
  >However, there's still no concrete proof that government has backdoor access to it, so if they do, they're being very careful about it. Sadly I feel like that is a very real possibility for any software / hardware produced in any significantly non free country. It can happen in other countries, but the likelihood of you hearing about it seems much much higher. It's a sad situation as I don't like the idea of being suspicious by default of other developers / products simply because their country of origin, but I have trouble avoiding the obvious fact that even a well meaning developer / company based in those countries would / could easily be pressured into introducing some sort of access (doesn't matter how) and it's simply unlikely we'd know.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    ... produced in any country. I wonder if the money Crypto AG made will have been worth any future reputation cost for Zug's economy. https://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/wirtschaft/bund-stoppt-nachfolgefirma-der-zuger-crypto-ag-ld.1202213 https://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/wirtschaft/bund-stoppt-nachfo... "... verkaufte die Crypto AG im Auftrag des US-Geheimdienstes CIA und des deutschen Bundesnachrichtendienstes Jahrzehnte lang manipulierte Chiffriergeräte an diverse Staaten."
    - duxup 6y ago
      Like I said it can happen anywhere, but the likelihood and ease of it happening in less free countries seems significantly different. I don't believe any country means all countries are equivalent as far as the risks go. The amount of news / data about it will of course be higher in more free nations.

082349872349872 6y ago

What's the "12+" next to the date? Does that imply gov.ru also has NSFW subdomains? - Open up! Police! Your neighbours called. - Nu, so go next door. We didn't call for police, we called for ...

chmod775 6y ago
> What's the "12+" next to the date? Does that imply gov.ru also has NSFW subdomains? Might be a timezone? The most eastern part of Russia (cities such as Pevek, Anadyr) observes UTC+12.
- Etheryte 6y ago
  Checking the source, the element has the id "age". Not sure what it implies one way or the other though.
  - chmod775 6y ago
    I don't think my timezone idea is particularly likely, not only because the site gives a Moscow address, but also because that (eastern) area of Russia is a backwater's backwater.
  - dunkelheit 6y ago
    Yes, probably the age rating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Internet_Restriction_Bill#Other_changes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Internet_Restriction_B...
coolspot 6y ago
It implies the content is not appropriate for kids. Like PG-13 in US. Every website and TV show in Russia must show age rating.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Some not as obvious as others. I'd never noticed it before on https://aif.ru https://aif.ru but now that I look the 16+ is way down in the footer bar. Sps))

slenk 6y ago

Backdoor-ed successfully?

bigdict 6y ago

The most likely reason is that Telegram is too convenient and too useful. Every agency in the government has an official account. The president’s spokesman uses it to communicate with members of the media. Most recently it was successfully used to disseminate guidance on COVID-19.

mschuster91 6y ago
> Most recently it was successfully used to disseminate guidance on COVID-19. Or propaganda, given the (credible) accusations against Russia on misinformation campaigns. edit: I'm referring to the fact that Telegram is the most popular service for German conspiracy myth spreaders (e.g. former stars Attila Hildmann and Xavier Naidoo), especially in regard to the COVID19 crisis. Unfortunately I'm unaware of decent English articles, but here's a good German starter: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/netzwelt/messengerdienst-telegram-wo-die-verschwoerungstheorien-spriessen,S0HDUq1 https://www.br.de/nachrichten/netzwelt/messengerdienst-teleg...
- bigdict 6y ago
  Here’s the Moscow channel if you want to judge the content for yourself: https://t.me/COVID2019_official https://t.me/COVID2019_official
  - jmartrican 6y ago
    I love the logo of the knight on the horse stabbing the dog sized covid virus.
    - sb057 6y ago
      Based on the story and icon of St. George. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S.George_(Novgorod,_mid._14_c,_GTG).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S.George_(Novgorod,_...
    - aasasd 6y ago

loceng 6y ago

Could this be an attempt to baby step closer access to infiltrate to the Telegram team by presenting good will? As someone else commented this could have been agreed upon through blackmail. How are these systems ultimately safe guarded? Is it even possible while there are bad actors attempting to control?

bigdict 6y ago
Non-Russians often assume some sinister motive behind actions like that, but reality is much simpler. The authorities failed to shut Telegram down while making active use of it themselves. So now they are giving up because there’s not much point in continuing the efforts.
- squarefoot 6y ago
  By doing so they would send the wrong message though "feel free to use it against us; we're neither closing nor monitoring it", which would be like shooting in their feet. Unless they're just pretending it. Every government fears what it cannot control, especially communications networks that could be used to subvert the status quo; this applies to all governments in all countries, including so called democratic ones. To me they're still actively monitoring it, and I'm 100% sure they have the means of shutting it down just in case of real necessity.
  - bigdict 6y ago
    I’m sure they are still actively monitoring, but I don’t think they have the means to surgically disable Telegram without shutting down all of internet in Russia. They’ve been trying unsuccessfully for the past few years.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    On the other hand: if you force people to use VPNs to use Telegram ... you're forcing people to learn to use VPNs. And if you're afraid of people talking about stuff without you knowing, the last thing you want it large parts of the population (or at least those parts you're interested in) using more encryption. Basically: you can't stop it, trying to stop it has negative side-effects, so stop trying.

bpolovko 6y ago

This is when I stop using it

iso-8859-1 6y ago
Why are you stopping? Because you think they collaborate with the FSB more now?
- bpolovko 6y ago
  There is one certain thing - they are getting something out of that and they want people to use it. I'm not sure what exactly. They either found a backdoor or a struck a deal. Things like that aren't a joke in Russia. Mass control and surveillance is a real thing, there are many reports of people being put in jail for writing something against the government on Facebook or other platforms.

throwaway4666 6y ago

Let's be honest the real reason to use Telegram wasn't security, I mean whenever the topic comes up here moxie (or his advocates) pops up and tells us it's trash and we should all use signal instead. The real reason to use telegram is that it's miles away the best messenging program out there. It's as user friendly as whatsapp while having completely seamless desktop/mobile integration (something whatsapp and signal have failed to do), it only requires a phone number for the initial signup, and generally speaking it has all sorts of cool features and less bullshit than alternatives. Then there are the little things - you can create multiple accounts and switch seamlessly, you can delete whatever message from whomever for everyone without leaving a trace (if it bothers you just switch to secret chats), all links are listed in each convo, you have pretty much unlimited and unrestricted cloud storage, etc. Then you have all the gravy like cool tools for groupchat admin, channels, and bots of course. You can order a taxi or search up a book on scihub (bypassing countrywide blocking) with telegram. You can even do bizarre stuff like discover people around you or verify your identity on a service with telegram. Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA, frankly. If I really want secrecy I'll use Tor or Signal.

luckylion 6y ago
I'd add to that: actually native client, not just some slow Electron thing, you can scale the font in the client(!), easy to work with bot API, allows other clients to access their servers. The one thing that keeps me from using Telegram as my primary messenger is the low maximum line-width that makes it feel like you're on mobile even if you're using the desktop client. But UX, especially speed, is just amazing.
- cordite 6y ago
  The native client also has benefits that don't come from electron and a javascript vm, being able to use 9 GB of swap and remaining performant!
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  More than just one native client, depending your platform, there are multiple clients! So if the official client doesn't do it for you, you've got a choice, and if you're so inclined you could even write your own! On macOS I use the semi-official Swift/Cocoa client instead of the main Qt-based one. Other messaging apps wouldn't be so bad if alternative clients were a possibility, because inevitably someone would build better clients. Messaging app platforms should have open APIs and welcome third party client devs, not chase them away.

MacSystem 6y ago

Did they make an agreement? Now the government got access to everything that goes through telegram?

SXX 6y ago
> Now the government got access to everything that goes through telegram? Nothing in Telegram ever had end-to-end encryption by default so you shouldn't really expect anything but private chats to be secure.
- MacSystem 6y ago
  I see. I read that somewhere but never checked to make sure it's really so.

ardy42 6y ago

Translation (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Frkn.gov.ru%2Fnews%2Frsoc%2Fnews73050.htm https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...): > About Telegram Messenger > June 18, 2020 > We positively assess the readiness expressed by the founder of Telegram to counter terrorism and extremism. > By agreement with the Prosecutor General’s Office of the Russian Federation, Roskomnadzor removes requirements to restrict access to the Telegram messenger. > We are ready to cooperate with all Internet companies operating in the country to quickly suppress the spread of terrorist and extremist information, child pornography, and the promotion of suicide and drugs. > Currently, jointly with leading Russian and foreign Internet companies, on average weekly materials are removed: > - propagandizing suicidal behavior 2,500; > - extremist and terrorist nature 1,300; > - propagandizing drug use, about places of their purchase 800; > - with pornographic images of minors - 300.

dang 6y ago

We changed the url changed from https://rkn.gov.ru/news/rsoc/news73050.htm https://rkn.gov.ru/news/rsoc/news73050.htm. We have deep respect for other languages, but HN is an English language site, and submissions here need to be in English so people can read what they're discussing.

gdmka 6y ago

You guys aren't seeing the bigger picture. TG LLC got 1.7 bil USD with two rounds of investment. US based investors are returned 72% of original fund. Those 28% are 500 mil USD. It's rumored that TG CEO got 300 mil selling his share of VK, so in the end he returned all personal investment on TG development. Who's behind all those funds, private investors etc. How many of those are under US sanctions really? And now, upon failing to submit the reasonable paperwork even thought they had quite expensive and experienced lawyers, Pavel suddenly calls for unban in Russia. Like a week later a legislation appears and almost immediately after that the deal is done. Reconciliation happened unbelievably quick. Or his words have so much power now? Just think Crypto AG serving the purposes of BND and CIA when you talk about Telegram.

octaveguin 6y ago
So the most reasonable explanation is that Pavel is in a conspiracy with the Russian government and is living in exile as a cover huh? Sounds pretty complicated when a simpler answer would also exist.
- gdmka 6y ago
  I don't feel like he's living in an exile. For starters, the citizenship that was acquired for $ 250k something is from Saint Kitts and Nevis, known for it's abuse of human rights. To me it's a classical double standard behavior. He's vocal on not being able to conduct business in Russia as he pleases and it's a clear violation in his purview. Never heard him being involved with fighting inequity of the new home country. Second of all, Saudi Arabia, the unofficial Telegram HQ, is tax exempt for hi-tech, but don't quote me on it.
  - LudwigNagasena 6y ago
    > For starters, the citizenship that was acquired for $ 250k something is from Saint Kitts and Nevis, known for it's abuse of human rights. To me it's a classical double standard behavior. Blame the UK and EU who allow visa-free travel with SKN but not with Russia and don’t sanction it. It is a country with a population of 50 000 people. The only reason it is not extremely poor is because its business model is giving citizenship to businessmen to avoid taxes and allow them to travel freely. Fighting an obviously lost fight against SKN and jeopardizing your whole life sounds even more stupid than fighting windmills.

octaveguin 6y ago

It's strange that whenever telegram comes up, there's an unfounded suspicion that it has some kind FSB/Russian government connection simply because it was developed by a Russian. This is insane and like pretty bigoted - not a good look for HN. Here's the guy that leads the company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov >In 2011, he was involved in a standoff with police in St. Petersburg when the government demanded the removal of opposition politicians' pages after the 2011 election to the Duma. He's living abroad because he's either not allowed or does not feel safe entering Russia. VK was taken from him pretty much over his principals not to do what HN just assume telegram does. Telegram was developed outside of Russia to avoid being beholden to them. The fact that Russia was actively blocking telegram should be proof enough. The reason they stopped is because when they did, they would accidentally blocked other services and it was kind of a disaster. They simply don't have the expertise to run their blocking campaign. It looked bad so they stopped. Russians are more than one-dimensional Putin-driven fake news generating bad guys.

mdrachuk 6y ago
What if they now have some way of pressuring him into doing it? Russian people are not one-dimensional. Russian government is.
Avamander 6y ago
> This is insane and like pretty bigoted - not a good look for HN. No, you're just projecting. This mindset of untrustworthy until proven otherwise is universally applied to all chat apps, from any country, it happens under pretty much every discussion of Facebook's Whatsapp and Messenger and it happens in discussions about WeiBo (and similar).
maqp 6y ago
>He's living abroad because he's either not allowed or does not feel safe entering Russia. He has since entered Russia. Also, Durov's warrant was dropped just two months after he went exile. Stop inventing things. >VK was taken from him pretty much over his principals not to do what HN just assume telegram does. HN isn't concerned over what he does, it's what capabilities he leaves himself and anyone who hacks his systems. If Durov really cared about his principles, he'd have deployed app-wide E2EE from the get go. He had the money to hire the people to do that. >Telegram was developed outside of Russia to avoid being beholden to them. Didn't stop it from being developed by non experts, almost equally bad considering there's now the equivalent in the backdoor that allows the server to read everyone's group messages. >The fact that Russia was actively blocking telegram should be proof enough If that's proof of Telegram's security, then the fact the ban was lifted means Telegram is now 100% compromised. So yeah, you have to make a choice here. >The reason they stopped is because when they did, they would accidentally blocked other services This is the actual reason they continued, and Telegram's security is not proven by the ban. They've had the capability to hack the server since day one. And if you disagree, you're either ill informed, or fooling yourself. If it's the former, start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fancy_Bear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fancy_Bear >Russians are more than one-dimensional Putin-driven fake news generating bad guys. It's very probable Durov isn't actively trying to uphold the oligarchy from abroad by continuing his military training in propaganda and position in the Russian society by retreating to an oppressive country like UAE under the disguise of exile just when chat platforms start to overtake social media sites. I think that's very improbable. But he's a useful fool for creating something that's trivial to hack, and that allows all intelligence establishments around the world to access Telegram's communication. We should've learned from Cambridge Analytica that ubiquitous E2EE by default is the only way to prevent future disasters. It's not like Durov can magically protect Telegram from all the state driven hacking organization and their insane budgets with no profit responsibility.

hnarn 6y ago

There's so much FUD here about how this must mean Telegram is now insecure, backdoored etc. I sure hope those voicing these opinions actually have used Telegram and understands how it works: - Telegram does log chats server-side if you want them to (to be able to see your chat history across devices). You don't have to. Telegram supports end-to-end encryption ("secret chats") with no logging -- as far as I know there is no proof that these chats are untrustworthy. - Telegram groups have never been sacred and they are deleted if they spread illegal information. This is not the same thing as leaking someone's personal chat history, which to my knowledge has still never been done. I'd be glad to be proven wrong on any of these counts, I use both Telegram and Signal and trust the latter more for obvious reasons (it's completely open source) -- but the fact that Telegram is not perfect in every way does not make it insecure by default.

lucideer 6y ago
> Telegram does log chats server-side if you want them to Trying to assume good faith here that this is accidental and not trying to deliberately mislead but the way this is phrased strongly implies that server-side logging is off-by-default. It is not. Nor are secret chats prompted or prominently advertised in the UI (it's the 2nd option when you go to create a new group, never seen when initiating new 1:1 conversations). I would wager most Telegram users don't know about secret chats, or if they have heard of them they probably assume they're on by default.
shanecoin 6y ago
> Telegram supports end-to-end encryption ("secret chats") with no logging -- as far as I know there is no proof that these chats are untrustworthy. The argument I've heard is that Telegram uses their own encryption protocol. The rule of thumb in cryptography is "don't roll your own crypto". The reason why that statement exists is because there are _countless_ examples of teams coming up with their own, new cryptographic mechanisms that either break (intentionally or not) or were written with a backdoor. People get incredibly clever when it comes to breaking encryption. AFAIK the only way to be on the right side of this argument is to use a time-tested encryption protocol. However, there are even instances where some protocols have been live and in production for x years before discovering that a backdoor has been in the code since day one.

shaggie76 6y ago

Some of our game servers were impacted by this and we ended up having to do elaborate message forwarding for Russian players. I find it staggering that it took 2 years to be lifted given how much collateral damage it caused.

SXX 6y ago

Russia never actually intended to fully block Telegram. Otherwise they would just make Google kick it from Russian version of App Store and Google play, but they never did it. I'm not for any of conspiracy stories, but we need to be clear about this ban story.

lightgreen 6y ago
At least Apple rejected RKN request to block Telegram. This is a random article (in a Russian) about RKN threatening to block App Store in Russia if they refuse to remove Telegram from the App Store. https://www.the-village.ru/village/city/news-city/313713-rkn-vs-appstore https://www.the-village.ru/village/city/news-city/313713-rkn...
- SXX 6y ago
  Both Google and Apple do block apps for certain countries though especially those used for distriution of copyrighted materials. Russia certainly can force Apple to comply if there was wuch a goal. Or at least RKN can just break push notifications for everyone. I'm not the one for conspiracy theories though. Most likely they never intended to actually block it simply because they are using it themselfs and that's just it.
  - lightgreen 6y ago
    > Russia certainly can force Apple to comply if there was wuch a goal. Or at least RKN can just break push notifications for everyone. Obviously, they are not mad enough to break everyone's phones just to block Telegram. > I'm not the one for conspiracy theories though. Yeah, that was my thought. You did not provide any evidence to the claim that RKN only pretended they want to block Telegram, while there's a lot of evidence they actually wanted to block: they blocked millions of IP addresses and they threatened Apple to block App Store. > simply because they are using it themselfs If they really wanted to use it themselves, they would not block AWS and DO.

ibudiallo 6y ago

As a consequence, my website is now available in Russia. https://isitblockedinrussia.com/?host=idiallo.com https://isitblockedinrussia.com/?host=idiallo.com The issue was that to block Telegram they had banned a few IP blocks, around 10 million ips[1]. These blocks were used in both Digital Ocean and AWS. So if your website or service used any of these blocks, it wouldn't be available in russia. [1]: https://idiallo.com/blog/website-dont-work-in-russia https://idiallo.com/blog/website-dont-work-in-russia

m0zg 6y ago

It never was actually successfully blocked. I was in Russia while it was blocked - it worked OK, just seemed slower than usual. A lot of people use Telegram there, for both messaging and for reading the news outside the entirely government-controlled mainstream using "channels". Nowadays even some government agencies have their own channels on it, in spite of the "ban". There's a saying in Russia: the strictness of Russian laws is compensated by optionality of compliance.

lightgreen 6y ago
> Nowadays even some government agencies have their own channels on it, in spite of the "ban". There's a saying in Russia: the strictness of Russian laws is compensated by optionality of compliance. Technically speaking there was no law prohibiting telegram for citizens or government officials. “Optionality of compliance” does not apply here because no user of telegram broke the law.

arzeth 6y ago

That's because on 2020-07-01 there will be a voting on constitutional changes. And Putin would like to give us a (false) hope that our life is going to become better and put his government in a good light. Context: In Russia we have a limit of 2 terms for presidents. Putin and his mafia don't like it, so he decided to be nullified and get additional privilegies (e.g. after he decides to resign, he will be able to dismiss a president). Putin has even already signed the changes because he knows we are too scared of jail to protest IRL: even if you are protesting alone, police will likely beat & fine you (even if you are a girl or just holding a BLANK board) for an unauthorized demonstration. In one video the election chief almost laughed while saying everything is already decided and legitimate and they just want our opinion. But for additional legitimization Putin set the voting. Probably he doesn't want the situation as in Venezuela. And he wants to increase his ego (his ego is very high, just compare inauguration of him and Obama/Trump). He paid many famous people for short videos where they support some part of the changes, typical example: "I will vote yes because I like animals!" although we already have laws for animals. And none of those videos mention that Putin would be the president forever. Only half people are even aware of this change (and many are forced by employers to make a photo that they voted yes). Oh, and our constitution doesn't work at all anyway. Gov-t people laugh at you when you mention anything from it. And there were news several years ago that a journalist got a suspended sentence (условный срок) of 4 years for extremism because he quoted the constitution. P.S. >97% of Russian IT people seem to hate Putin according to the comments I read everyday. And Durov should hate him much more because Putin's mafia stole VK (that's our Facebook with nice UI/UX and awesome search) from his control.

dsabanin 6y ago

One of the big reasons was also the fact that they failed to ban it. They could not enforce it at all, without blocking half of the websites, because of Telegram's clever networking shenanigans, so everyone was still been able to use it (without vpn or anything). Even russian government officials have official Telegram channels. All the "news" sources quote Telegram channels all the time. All pro-gov celebrities and stuff. It was not a ban, but a farce that made the regime look like incapable fools. Not that they are not, but they don't want to emphasize that so much. Not that they don't, but at least not make it that obvious. Not that it isn't, but...

bilekas 6y ago
> One of the big reasons was also the fact that they failed to ban it Of course. So now that it's not banned, its no longer a tech defined as against the system. But It doesn't matter really. They don't need to have anything to send you away in Russia.
jojobas 6y ago
They couldn't block it even taking down half of all websites, including Github. At the same time government officials kept using it, including those in charge of blocking it. It was an "old man yells at cloud" travesty from the beginning.
maqp 6y ago
The problem is, people think Telegram ban means Telegram is secure from Russian state actors. The truth is, Russia employs hackers of their own that hack Telegram's servers without trace and read messages of anyone they find interesting.

luminadiffusion 6y ago

Russia did not lift this ban because they changed their stance on encryption...

lightgreen 6y ago
This in an unsubstantiated claim which does not help anybody.

nicbou 6y ago

> The company refused to hand over encryption keys, arguing that it would violate users’ rights to privacy and would not help weed out terrorists. Take note on how it feels to read this line when it's about a country that isn't yours. When the United States pushes the same argument, the rest of the world's privacy is at risk. This is why European governments increasingly try to keep their data on European soil, and to trust businesses bound to EU laws.

noxer 6y ago

Articles: Anything about Telegram Discussion: crypto baaad/all chats logged/insecure by default etc. etc. Yes we got it you don't like telegram. Use whatever and move on. There is no need to constantly come up with the same BS. Cloud chats are in the cloud (which you probably hate too ryt?) and no, they are not e2e encrypted. Calling it a server side logging is just straight out FUD. Also pretty sure 99+% of all telegram user never use the secret chat feature because telegram is mostly so useful because of all the rest. And people use it for all the rest (large community groups/channels/bots/games). I'm sure more than 99% of my telegram messages go to groups that are public or semi public (like you would find the link on another platform if you are part of the community there). Its absolutely unwanted to have any kind of nonsense encryption for such groups. Yet all the feature telegram can provide because it does not have nonsense encryption, like fast server side search or link to messages visible on the web, are the reason I and other use it. Just like y'all use hacker news and don't mind that your comments are "server side logged". tl;dr A tool isn't broken or insecure because it does not what you want it to do. It's just the wrong tool for you.