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Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle
- dmitrygr 6y ago"a new custom tire" sounds expensive to replace when you drive over a nail
- dmoy 6y agoI don't think you buy a tesla for low part costs e.g. https://www.tflcar.com/2019/06/tesla-model-3-repair-story/ https://www.tflcar.com/2019/06/tesla-model-3-repair-story/
- TrainedMonkey 6y agoFair point, but this is Tesla we are talking about. They will find a way to make price competitive (possibly after failing a few times first).
- mhh__ 6y agoThe Tires are one of, if not, the least understood things on a car, so I'll believe it when I see it.
- servusMachina 6y agoIt's a car that sells on average for ~100k. I don't think an expensive tire change in case of a nail will stop the target customer from purchasing this vehicle.
- mc32 6y agoYes but don’t most “luxury” automobiles come with non-cheap tires to begin with that may or may not bring 2% mileage improvement with them?
- leetcrew 6y agoI guess it depends what you mean by "luxury", but the vehicles I'm thinking of tend to come with sticky high-performance tires. these actually increase rolling friction.
- mc32 6y agoExactly so one, they don’t run very long and two they add rolling resistance (for better two wheeled traction), so both in Tesla’s favor.
- fumar 6y agoYou can patch a tire with up to a 1/4 inch puncture.
- serf 6y agoSome exclusions may apply. May not be available at a retailer near you. (you can patch a tire with a quarter inch puncture as long as that puncture is further than 16 inches away from a previous repair, on a 'square' landing of the tire away from the gradual shoulder or side-wall, and the puncture must not have resulted in an internal or external layer delamination) And those exclusions aren't considering exotic tire compounds, treads, models, or run-flat styles. P.S. Most economy-oriented MPG-centric hybrid-car tires have a far-less square design, meaning more shoulder , meaning less repairable area. This is in order to reduce road tire-patch in the interest of reducing rolling resistance. I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla is adopting something similar.
- rootusrootus 6y agoThis is not uncommon. Many performance cars over the years have had tires custom spec'd for them. An example that comes to mind is the Bridgestone RE070, which for a while only came in exactly one size, because it was for the mid-2000s STI. It did come in another size a bit later when the GT-R started using it as the factory tire. I want to say that the sixth generation Camaro SS 1LE also had a custom tire, though I think it comes in more sizes now.
- tenpies 6y agoI'll wait for Consumer Reports or the EPA before believing any of Tesla's range claims. E: As in from the EPA itself and validated by Consumer Report's field-testing, not Tesla claiming EPA certification and verified through easily cheat-able testing.
- boardwaalk 6y agoRespectfully speaking, if you read to the second sentence, you'd learn the range is an EPA rating.
- new_realist 6y agoI think they mean they’re waiting for the EPA to test it themselves. Tesla conducts and self-certifies their own tests, and to my knowledge the EPA has never tested one in their own lab.
- ogre_codes 6y ago> the EPA has never tested one in their own lab. That would make Tesla's prior claims about the EPA screwing the mileage tests up a couple months ago quite odd. https://electrek.co/2020/04/29/tesla-model-s-400-mile-range-epa-mistake-test/ https://electrek.co/2020/04/29/tesla-model-s-400-mile-range-... > The CEO claimed that the EPA left the door open and the key inside the car when stopping during range testing, resulting in the car remaining powered up and losing 2% of battery capacity.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- NotSammyHagar 6y agoThat's almost certainly wrong because they had blog posts talking about epa testing.
- new_realist 6y agoTeslas are known for achieving only 75-85% of EPA in the real world. This is based on my own data, owning multiple Teslas over four years. The issue is that short drives suffer HVAC losses and long drives are at highway speeds, which is significantly above the speed the EPA uses for their dyno. tests. Further, Tesla actually runs the tests themselves and uses their own calculations to simulate wind resistance.
- late2part 6y agoIt's really incredible what Tesla is doing. Haters gonna hate, but they continue to innovate and move the industry forward.
- xvector 6y agoReally enjoying Tesla's 'innovation' of giving my Model 3 only 70% of the promised range. Doesn't help that everyone on Tesla forums love to praise the company no matter what they do, so it's not like this is something easy to learn prior to using the car for some time.
- cwhiz 6y agoThere are a million variables that go into range. I could drive the same route and get 25mpg on my old Prius, or I could get 65mpg. https://teslike.com/ https://teslike.com/ This site has been linked on this thread a few times and I’ve had it bookmarked for some time. TLDR = drive more slowly and lay off the brakes.
- therealdrag0 6y agoAll my ICE cars also have less than advertised performance. There is more factors at play in real world driving than in standardized testing...
- new_realist 6y agoThe Hyundai Nexo EV is already at 380 miles, and it’s a real SUV, not a flat-as-a-pancake Model S. It refuels in five minutes, to boot, but is only practical in California. If they increased tank volume by 5% it’d be at 400 miles EPA.
- thatswrong0 6y agoYou should mention that it’s a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle if you’re going to compare apples to oranges.
- wmf 6y agoTo save people googling, the Hyundai Nexo EV is a hydrogen fuel-cell car, not battery electric.
- gimmeThaBeet 6y agoThat looks pretty sweet honestly. I know it's not a far out take, but my feeling with the established car makers that are doing fuel cells (e.g. Toyota, and in that model Hyundai), want to learn how to build cars that run on electricity, and put too many eggs into where the electricity comes from. From the outside it looks frustrating that they are not going full tilt while Tesla does Tesla things, but I hope I see where they're coming from.
- metrokoi 6y agoI think they realize all electric cars will not be the largest share of the market when hydrocarbon vehicles are phased out. The biggest reason for not owning an electric vehicle is the charging time and range. Toyota and Hyundai aren't going all in on all electric because they would rather focus on capturing the fuel cell market which will be as large as the hydrocarbon vehicle market is today.
- xeromal 6y agoFuel cells are pretty cool. My friend has the Toyota one. They're pretty good in CA but have a ways to go before practicality. I believe you can only lease them ATM because they cost about 400k. They're definitely a viable tech though! I'll also say that part of the Tesla ecosystem is the self-driving and performance, not just earth friendly. Also you compared an SUV to a Sedan which is supposed to be flat as a pancake. lol. A better comparison would be the model Y.
- kenhwang 6y agoI wonder how much of this will translate to real world driving. Teslas have generally significantly underperformed in real world range compared to EPA. This reads very much like they're optimizing more towards a benchmark.
- person_of_color 6y agoThe real world version of overfitting!
- Spooky23 6y agoWell, duh. It’s a consistent test that you can benchmark. The same thing happens with ICE cars. I drove a Cadillac that would get like 27-28 mpg highway but 10 in the city, as they used gearing and cylinder management to optimize highway mpg.
- kjksf 6y agoIf it's possible, every car maker can "optimize towards benchmark". So is your theory that all car makers except Tesla are dumb and cannot optimize their range for EPA tests? That they are morally superior to Tesla and will sacrifice sales by not optimizing for EPA range but some purported "real world range"? And in what way exactly do you optimize for EPA test? I've seen this "explanation" for superior Tesla results many times but somehow no-one actually explains how do you make a battery or electric motor or drag coefficient of the car that is optimized for EPA test but doesn't generalize to regular driving.
- monadic2 6y agoI mean they could be honest and still outperform the rest of the market. If what you say is true, the EPA metric is meaningless and they should report observed efficiency for a certain traffic pattern. Why lie about it?
- justapassenger 6y ago> If it's possible, every car maker can "optimize towards benchmark". Like VW optimizing cars towards benchmark. Doesn't always ends great.
- dmix 6y ago402mi = 647km
- steelframe 6y agoI've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-range-tested/ https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-taycan-range-test-tesla-model-s/ https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and one of the other EVs on the list from the first article, I can also provide my own anecdata that at freeway speeds Tesla routinely underperforms their EPA range rating, and by quite a large margin. Meanwhile at freeway speeds my non-Tesla EV routinely exceeds its EPA rating. That's not to say that Tesla hasn't done an amazing job at maximizing efficiency in their cars. They have. Just maybe not to the degree that the EPA test would suggest.
- ashtonkem 6y agoSounds like they have the mix of estimated speeds wrong. EVs perform significantly better at low speeds, because there’s no extra efficiency in the EV power train at higher RPMs, and air resistance scales in a nonlinear fashion.
- rootusrootus 6y agoThere's always a lot of folks claiming to get equal to or better than the rated range on the highway, but I will add my anecdata in for however much it's worth. I have a Model 3 Performance and it does not get anywhere near rated range, regardless of weather. I more realistically get 200 miles of range, not 300.
- natch 6y agoBut the fun... you probably drive like I do.
- rootusrootus 6y agoAround town, for sure, but on a road trip with the fam I just set turn on autopilot at 70 and leave it. My wife & kids are not nearly as appreciative of the performance as I am :). But, even at mild temperatures cruising at steady speed on mostly level terrain, I generally see 325 Wh/mi. If I cruise at 75, it's 350 Wh/mi. The rated range can only be achieved by hitting about 250 Wh/mi.
- pkulak 6y agoWow, they are doing brake blending now? I'd be interested to know how good their implementation is. I always assumed they refused to do it because it's so damn hard to perfect.
- cloudwalking 6y agoQuite good, in my experience. I would describe it as "seamless." I use it every day (or I did, before lockdown) in my Model 3.
- Reason077 6y agoTesla doesn't do any blending of the brake pedal. Pressing the brake pedal always applies the friction brakes only. However, since a software update last year, they have had a one-pedal driving mode (Stopping mode "Hold"). In this mode, the vehicle is able to come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal, using a blend of re-gen and friction brakes to do so. In practice, it means it uses re-gen down to a very low speed (< 5mph), then applies the friction brakes to achieve a complete stop (this also doubles as a "hill hold" - the brakes won't release until you press the accelerator again).
- dzhiurgis 6y agoQuick question - do Teslas turn on brake lights when using one-pedal mode? Seems it can brake quite aggressively using regen.
- Reason077 6y agoYes, any significant regen will light up the brake lights.
- potatochup 6y agoYes. Even in non-one-pedal ( eg standard regen braking) you get the brake lights on if the deacceleration is high enough.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- systemBuilder 6y agoSo it used to be rated at about 335mpc (miles per charge)? And 20% yanks it up to 402? That must be an incredible mass savings something like 10% I'm guessing, on a car that is already built on an all-aluminum unibody. I hope the NHTSA crash ratings are not affected!
- CarVac 6y ago335, then 370, and now 402.
- elihu 6y agoThey mention "significant weight reduction" but don't mention how much weight they saved. Considering how heavy Model S's are, this seems like it could be a productive approach, though on the other hand if there were easy/obvious ways to reduce unnecessary weight, it would have been done by now. On some level it's a trade-off between being too heavy and being unsafe, though reducing the weight also means it doesn't have to be as strong.
- sgc 6y agoyes and no. Older cars were far heavier and far less safe. They could make incremental safety design improvements that allow to reduce weight incrementally without compromise.
- elihu 6y agoI think cars of all eras have had a mix of heavy and light designs. With modern materials, it's possible to make safer, lighter cars but modern cars are also required to have more safety features. A Model S is about 4500 to 5000 pounds. I used to drive around in a 1981 Mazda GLC, which is about 1800 pounds. The White Zombie, a famous electric conversion with a 0-60 time of about 1.8 seconds is based on a 70's Datsun which I believe was about 1700 pounds (after adding a couple series-wound DC motors and a trunk full of batteries it's around 2000 pounds). If you asked some engineers to make a car under 200 pounds, they'd construct the thing using similar materials and techniques as a modern bicycle, and it might even be fast and safe at highway speeds, as long as it didn't collide with a modern car that weighs as much as five or six large pianos. So, in a sense modern cars are on average very heavy because they have to share the road with other cars that are very heavy.
- allendoerfer 6y agoNext to roads are often things like bridge pillars and those things are also very heavy and not very soft.
- elihu 6y ago
- ryanmarsh 6y agoHere I am with a 2018 S 75D getting low 200’s. sniff
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- anonymousiam 6y agoThey are lying. I was in the market for a new car earlier this year, and I really wanted to get a Tesla. I also really wanted a car that could handle a trip of 295 miles that I regularly make. I will not go into the nightmare that was scheduling a test drive of the long-range Model S, but after getting conflicting answers from multiple PoCs at Tesla, I finally got the firm answer. The car cannot do even my 295 mile commute (either way) without recharging once. I gave up and bought something else, but I did reserve a "Cyber Truck" which they claim will have a 500 mile range.
- jeremiahhs 6y agoNo one lies about EPA range. What you didn't include are the details of your commute and why it might be atypical.
- anonymousiam 6y agoLA to Vegas.
- URSpider94 6y agoThat’s the reason, right there. There are three very long and steep grades on that trip, which suck down range considerably. I do have to say, the Superchargers along that route are located about 45 seconds off of the highway, and are almost never full. You’d have your choice of places to stop. But if never making even a brief stop is your requirement, then you have your answer.
- xkjkls 6y agoGovernment range and emissions tests can be gamed. As VW, and Tesla.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoI’ve driven 30k miles in my Model S (pre Raven 330 mile range 100kw dual motor) since 2018, back and forth across the US (West coast, East coast, Deep South and the Midwest), using the Supercharger network. Would stopping for a 20 minute charge on a 300 mile road trip really be a deal breaker? I find it to be just the right amount of time to hit the bathroom, grab a Monster energy drink or a coffee, and to walk a little bit to keep away the DVT. 40-50 minute range charges to 100% are rare, and I’ll time those to be when we’re leaving someplace we charged overnight (hotel with destination chargers) or at a Supercharger where I can combine the stop with a meal.
- leesec 6y agoMan do I love Hackernews. Everyone is pro-innovation, pro-future, pro-forward thinking until literally anything new happens, in which case everyone shows up with a "well, ackshually", to tell you why the new idea is dumb. It's amazing to me that Tesla continues to increase State Of The Art range and EV efficiency, at scale, for cars that already smoke the competition. I hope their fervor to improve the technology never stops, and I'm glad they're dragging the industry, kicking and screaming, into the future.
- xeromal 6y agoDefinitely agree with you there. It's definitely a moving goalposts argument. It used to be the claim that there were no EV chargers so the point was dead. Now there are superchargers across the states. To me, 250 miles of REAL range is enough for most people. I've driven 1000 miles with no real issue. Running out of battery, every few hours, almost coincides with having to take a leak and buy a drink. My car is good to go after I finish all those things.
- 10-1-100 6y agoSecond this - always surprised by the skepticism towards Tesla. As you say, they are continuing to push the limits of range and performance despite no other EVs having caught up. As far as I'm concerned, Tesla wouldn't be selling hundreds of thousands of cars if real people weren't able to meet their real range needs with them. Plus, it only takes driving one to understand the appeal :)
- meroes 6y agoPeople on HN are no different than others. It's easy to be a naysayer and point out flaws, and it's an annoying trend that bogs down or even derails the conversation. And now I have to brace for the "well actually's" to point out I am doing exactly what I complained about. A continual regression of well actually's
- refurb 6y agoCan you really blame people for skepticism? How many articles get posted each day about some incredible new breakthrough? Then "poof" you never hear about it again. And the article said the new product would hit the market next year.
- kylecordes 6y agoIt's great that Tesla keeps increasing the range, but the EPA numbers are ridiculous. I would love to see the EPA range claims for electric vehicles re-standardized to measure: * at the median driving speed on free-flowing US interstate highways * during cold weather * with some hills * using a medium level typical of drivers of cars of the price range A car manufacturer particularly focused on realism could publish a two range values; a lower number as described above, an upper EPA number (perfect conditions, low speed).
- burlesona 6y agoThe EPA tests are interesting. They do simulate stop and go driving, and that’s why on a gas car the city number is worse, but the steadier highway test shows better numbers. One of the weird things with an EV is that the highway numbers are actually worse (as other posters have commented). The tests definitely trade off realism for consistent reproducibility though. This article describes it in detail, it’s really interesting: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15388892/the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15388892/the-truth-ab...
- kenhwang 6y agoThe test is absolutely insane and it totally makes sense why EPA estimates can vary so much from real world numbers. It would practically ignore the effects of aerodynamics and I'm not even sure weight plays a role given both of those are supposedly accounted for by a simulated drag on the rollers.
- avs733 6y agoweight is inertia and aero drag is a speed dependant force...both are just forces that can be simulated really easily on a dyno.
- avs733 6y agoI was going to write something longer and then got distracted and this thread went bonkers, so sadly your post is not going to get the attention it deserves. I've actually toured a fuel economy lab for a Tier I/Big 3 auto manufacturer. The testing procedures described there are correct...account for as many variables as possible. The lab I toured had the dynos in temperature and humidity controlled rooms. Exhaust vents were standardized in length to ensure consistency, etc. MPG is serious business with millions on the line. Most interesting story I had was that they have several drivers they use for different purposes. Some are super consistent and used for repeatability tests. Others specialize in maximizing mileage. They quoted a 5% improvement by certain drivers over others on the SAME TEST. which already has incredibly precise time/speed windows that the drivers must stay in between. Every time, someone is manually controlling the throttle and brake pedal. Although they can use a computerized control for other testing. They will run the test until they get the best possible test and then ship that to the EPA.
- yalogin 6y agoTesla’s batteries fall from their initial range in 2 yrs and to get around it they changed the display. Instead of miles they started calling it “range miles” or something like that and that is a cooked up number using some algorithm. It’s it real and is done to get around the fact that the battery holds less charge over time.
- sidcool 6y agoThis is impressive. Almost 650 Km. Conservatively, let's say 600 Km, it's very very impressive. My daily commute is 30 KM, I can go 20 days without charging. Back of the napkin suggests that if I charge overnight in my garage, I can go without super charger charging for more than a month and a half. This is no small feat.
- NiekvdMaas 6y agoIf you charge overnight on your garage, you never need to visit a supercharger unless you take road trips. Last time I visited a supercharger was 4 months ago.
- sidcool 6y agoThat's even better.
- softgrow 6y agoCan we have an EV for people who don't suffer from range anxiety and are willing to trade that off for cost? I travel 5000km (3000mi) a year, longest single day use 50km (30mi). Vehicle is garaged with access to power. I just need 100km (60mi) (double to be sure :) ) range at an affordable cost.
- xyst 6y agoNow give us a truck that doesn’t resemble late 1990s video games with these long range innovations, and I would put in a reserve for a Tesla. Right now I’m leaning towards Rivian, but they are currently unproven and would like to ideally wait out a few generations.
- codecamper 6y agodear Tesla. I live in a city.
- allendoerfer 6y agoInside a (properly designed) city you should not need (to own) a car at all.
- lazyjones 6y agoPerhaps not everything in life is about need. I presume what you actually wanted to say is: you don't want other people in cities to own cars.
- Tepix 6y agoOwning a car in a city is dumb. For some cities.
- lazyjones 6y agoWhy? For which cities? I live in the historic city center of a large European city and own a car. It's very comfortable, safe (especially during pandemics) and useful (for transporting things) and it's almost essential for me because I pick up the kids from their mother almost every weekend and that's a 40 Km drive one way, which takes about 3 times as long with public transport (and would force me to bring them back earlier, make it a real hassle to visit any sort of outdoor activity with them etc.). I have yet to see anyone argue their condescending views about owning cars in cities with actual arguments, all I typically get is veiled hate for car owners from young, childless egoists who want more space for themselves. But let's hear why you think it's dumb!
- rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago63.2% of Parisians don't have a car. I'm one of them: I ride my bike (or a velib) and only use public transport when traveling to the suburbs and in the countryside (with children, too). I rarely drive, a handful of days every year at most (for some holidays, and to move out around once in a decade). You say "It's very comfortable, safe and useful" but that just your POV. Your car is definitely not comfortable to the vast majority of Parisians, nor safe or useful (you do realize you contribute to all the traffic, noise and fumes?). >childless egoists who want more space for themselves How much space does your car take? Do you realize they are countless families who simply walk, bike and take public transport and who don't really count because no one care about them since they're silent, take no space at all, and don't need car subsidies to support big auto? Things are getting better nowadays, precisely because we're starting to focus on the comfort and safety of the many (not the few).
- jokoon 6y agoStill wondering why they haven't announced a new, cheaper EV yet. Autonomy isn't such a big issue, price is. I know Tesla needs to develop its production scale, which means making low-quantity high-margin vehicles first. Did Tesla deliver all the model 3 yet? I'm pretty sure that selling a vehicle that can do 150km at a lower price could still sell well.
- lazyjones 6y ago> Still wondering why they haven't announced a new, cheaper EV yet. They seem to be selling their current low-end cars as fast as they can make them, why should they attempt to divert their efforts to a new lower-margin car? They can leave the cheap EV announcements to other manufacturers like VW for people who want to buy an EV some time later...
- jokoon 6y ago> why should they attempt to divert their efforts to a new lower-margin car? why not?
- lazyjones 6y agoBecause it makes no sense from a business perspective.
- jokoon 6y agoI'm not really sure Elon Musk really wants to make money in the first place, he also wants to make ICU cars obsolete. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty people willing to buy an electric vehicle even if it performs worse than an ICU vehicle. A lot of customers are ready to do it because it's the right thing to do.
- virtualritz 6y agoWhen I open the page it asks me which market I'm in. I choose Germany yet all units used in the piece are imperial.
- Tepix 6y agoCongratulations to the Tesla team! You deserve the success that you‘re having! Tesla is 100% succeeding in their quest to speed up the change to renewable mobility.
- pedrocr 6y agoEV range as a blended efficiency using the same test cycle we use for ICEs is not a very useful metric. EVs are already insanely energy efficient so we don't really need to measure that. What people want to know is if they go on a road-trip how far can they go until they need to charge. Just testing the highway range at whatever the normal speed is in your location would be a much more useful number. It would be nice if we had a standard rating for highway range in winter/summer at a continuous 120/130/140 km/h for example. For a Model 3 this can easily be 60-70% of the rated WLTP range. When you're in the city the car is parked most of the time and may as well be connected to a charger, range on city cycles and short trips is not nearly as relevant.
- tomohawk 6y agoThis is a good step, but 400 miles is hardly long range. Any gas powered car can get 500 miles of range with a 5 minute fill up.
- woodandsteel 6y agoThe larger importance of this is that for a lot of potential ev purchasers, 400 miles is the lower limit of what they consider acceptable range. Yes, I know that is rather arbitrary and irrational, but that's how it is. 400 mile range is also important for political debates about the practicality of ev's and whether or not governments should be promoting them.