15 ms·

I got a Ph.D. at age 66 (2018)

300 points by sohkamyung 6y ago

klenwell 6y ago
My grandmother spent the last several years of her life living off a fixed income happily occupied with continuing education classes at the local state university. It seemed like a pretty appealing lifestyle to me. It occurred to me that you might even mainstream the idea. Instead of building retirement communities around golf courses, build them around universities. If I'm not mistaken, I think I've seen small advertisements for such things in the back pages of the New Yorker. Given the costs of modern universities, and the current identity crisis they're facing, this might be a new business model for them, especially if wealthy foreign students are to no longer be admitted to the country. At the same time, I'm reminded of an exchange from an episode of This American Life about how in some parts of the country state disability payments have become a de facto retirement and welfare system: Ethel Thomas: You asked me a while back what would be the perfect job. I thought about it, and I said that the perfect job, it would be like I would sit at a desk like the Social Security people, and just weed out all the ones that come in and file for disability. Chana Joffe-Walt: At first, I thought Ethel's dream job was to be the lady at Social Security, because she thought she'd be good at weeding out the cheaters. But no. After a confusing back and forth, it turned out Ethel wanted this woman's job because she gets to sit. That's it. And when I asked her, OK, but why that lady? Why not any other job where you get to sit? Ethel said she could not think of a single other job where you get to sit all day. She said she'd never seen one. I brushed this off in the moment. I was getting in my car. It was getting late. And also, it just did not seem possible to me that there would be a place in America today where someone could go her whole working life without any exposure to jobs where you get to sit, until she applied for disability and saw a woman who gets to sit all day. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/490/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/490/transcript
- whatshisface 6y ago
  That makes a lot of sense actually, because the reason we really need (as in need, not just want) retirement and welfare payments, are because some people are either not able to work or no longer able to work.
- dugmartin 6y ago
  My wife's great uncle (a retired college president) lives in a Kendall community near Dartmouth, his old alma mater. Kendall has a focus on senior learning: https://www.kendal.org/about-kendal/kendal-values/lifelong-learning-for-seniors/ https://www.kendal.org/about-kendal/kendal-values/lifelong-l...
- owenversteeg 6y ago
  Oh, that is a really fascinating episode of This American Life. Thanks for sharing! I would highly recommend anyone take a look at it - it explains where people go and what happens when those linchpin factories in a small town close down, and the growth of disability programs.
rfrey 6y ago
I spent my 20s trying to get rich enough to become a professional student. My 30s too. Its looking like this is also how I'll spend my 50s, which are approaching like a steam train. Bring on the MIT Golden Years Home for the Intellectually Dissatisfied.
- discordance 6y ago
  Did you end up becoming a professional student? - If so, how's that going?
  - rfrey 6y ago
    Nope, still working - just incorporated my latest startup. 7th time the charm?
    - dorchadas 6y ago
      I wish you the best of luck. This is, quite honestly, the main reason why I wish to attain financial independence. I really would love to be a professional student, and my interests are all over the place, so I could keep it up for sure.
- garmaine 6y ago
  Try a different country where higher education is nearly free (by comparison)?
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    Most countries don't let random foreign students come study for free. You either have to be really good or pay your way.
    - garmaine 6y ago
      There are some that do, like Slovakia.
dragonsh 6y ago
Very inspiring to highlight education and learning is lifelong. Ph.D. even though symbolism (not really needed if only aim is knowledge assimilation and creation through learning), will serve as a big boost in confidence for middle age workers, who think there aren’t enough opportunities for them. Also Ph.D. gives chances to work with younger people keeping middle and older generations more active and alive. I hope to continue learning in my middle and old age like the post, not sure of Ph.D. though. But may consider if it opens a way for me to work alongside young researchers can learn new things from them and feel alive.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  I think we should be careful not to conflate the pursuit of knowledge with acquiring a PhD. The latter is a very constrained and narrow way to do it, and can easily disappoint. As I get older, the (non-financial) value of the PhD keeps diminishing in my eyes, whereas the pursuit of knowledge hasn't. As I have less time on Earth, I want to optimize my time, and much of PhD work is orthogonal to my goals of gaining knowledge. A PhD will force you to spend years on an extremely narrow topic (of course, acquiring some breadth along the way). When you're older, that time is precious. It better be a problem you really are passionate about. Consider: 1. You likely will work on your advisor's research ideas and not your own. 2. You will have to fulfill several steps tied to the culture of academia, and none of these is needed to acquire knowledge. But tradition is tradition, and you have to do it. 3. There can be a lot of politics involved - also orthogonal to acquiring knowledge, but you will have to put up with them, play them, and suffer because of them. 4. Professors will often work you harder than you'll want at an older age. Their rationale is often a variant of "Well, if you want a career in research/academia, this is the workload you will have to deal with". But a 60+ year old usually has very different goals. Of course, I have seen plenty of professors who are sympathetic to such people. Overall, if you're at an older age, don't do it unless you already have a research problem you really want to work on, and can find a sympathetic advisor who cares more about you than their own careers. Disclaimer: My view on this topic is a bit biased. I spent most of a decade in grad school (at a younger age) but eventually quit the PhD program. I was at the point where I felt I had attained most of the benefits of a PhD except that final paper (acquired a lot of knowledge, published in journal, lots of personal development/introspection, gained much from being around the intellectual environment, etc). I quit because my work was not good enough to get my dream research jobs (in academia or industry), and spending the 2 or so more years fulfilling my advisor's requirements knowing it would not lead me to my dream jobs was just pointless. Sure - I could get a postdoc and do enough good work there to land my dream job, but I decided it wasn't worth the gamble. I often fantasize about becoming financially independent and going back to university and hopefully do some research (in a different discipline this time). I do miss the intellectual discussions, etc. But while the studying and research problem aspect appeal to me, I really don't have the patience to put up with all the negatives I listed above. And I didn't even get into how in some disciplines (or sub-disciplines), journal publications are a racket (with both the publisher and academia being guilty parties). If I ever did anything interesting and novel enough, I'd likely write it up in a blog post or at most post to arxiv. I really don't want to participate in the current journal publishing culture. But of course, kudos to the person in this submission!
spsd 6y ago
You are an Inspiration to me! Thanks for sharing your story.
blastonico 6y ago
THANK YOU for sharing this. All we got these days are pandemics, deaths, protests, anger. Even HN, that I like so much with all those brilliant people sharing their great projects, is now politics and anger. I mean read about your successful victory is inspiring. Thank you.
jmole 6y ago
'Sitting at my desk, staring at environmental impact reports and grant applications on my computer screen, I began to think, “They cannot pay me enough to do this job.”' Honestly, this sounds like most PhD programs I'm familiar with.
- freetime2 6y ago
  I think the most important takeaway from this article is not that getting a PhD will make you happy... but rather when you start having that feeling it’s time to make a change.
slavik81 6y ago
Pierre Bézier (1910–1999) is a famous example of a late Ph.D. He was awarded his doctorate in 1974.
- logicchains 6y ago
  Seems he really went against the curve.
mmhsieh 6y ago
As an undergrad I had a friend in the math department who came back to school to get a PhD after some years of making enough $$ to retire on in software. He did not aspire to an academic career. He just liked math and enjoyed spending time on it. He helped us rando undergrads with our problem sets. He is one of the happiest individuals I have ever met. A PhD makes sense at any age for happiness reasons if you don't have financial obligations hanging over you.
- hatmatrix 6y ago
  or family obligations
  - M5x7wI3CmbEem10 6y ago
    would it be better to do a PhD as soon as possible to prevent family weighing you down, or to become financially independent first?
    - hatmatrix 6y ago
      Ideally, both - but in STEM you would get a stipend that you could live off of if you had no children so if you could only do one or the other I would say the first.
    - mattbk1 6y ago
      As soon as possible.
      - M5x7wI3CmbEem10 6y ago
        well...why?
- bachmeier 6y ago
  > A PhD makes sense at any age for happiness reasons if you don't have financial obligations hanging over you. Conditional on actually wanting to go that deep in courses and research. Many PhD students take a couple semesters of courses (the hardest year of their life) and they quit after they realize the research they're going to be doing for at least the next few years. It's certainly not for everyone.
ipnon 6y ago
Joe Armstrong received his Ph.D. at age 52.[0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Armstrong_(programmer) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Armstrong_(programmer)
pkaye 6y ago
I seem to remember California allows those over 60 to take classes for credit without paying tuition. I believe for both the CSU and UC system. A met a few who did it when I did my education in both systems. I hope its still around.
- smegger001 6y ago
  when I was a college student I have to admit I resented continuing education programs. Here were thousands of people like me were racking up of thousands of dollars in debt literally mortgaging our future to pay for these classes and there were senior paying little to nothing to take classes. I still am not sure how we can justify a system where we convince impressionable minors that they need to in-debt themselves for decades and then allow seniors to take the classes free? this just seems inequitable to me.
  - LeanderK 6y ago
    not an American, but I also view this very critically. In Germany the university is free, but in reality it's just hugely subsidised. I just can't justify pumping a lot of money into free (real) university education for seniors. The money is needed elsewhere. There's a huge difference between a university and other education-institutions, university-education is just such a luxury. You can take classes with highly-esteemed researchers etc. It's really unbelievable valuable, but also quite a societal investment. There should, of course, be ways for pensioners challenge their intellectual ability, but studying at a university is just way over the top I think. There must be another way. Maybe expand the adult-education-centres with special programs for seniors, I don't know. EDIT: this comment is not about getting a PhD. I would not lobby for any age-restricted subsidy for getting your PhD, since I think PhDs are producing an immense amount of benefit for society, regardless of whether they're in humanities or natural science.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      On the contrary. Seniors have paid taxes their whole lives so others can get their heavily subsidized goodies. I think it only makes sense that they have the same rights to education and other things that they have helped fund for others. Many seniors today simply did not have the opportunity to study because they had to go to work at an early age. It wasn't uncommon to be a provider at 17 or 18 in the past.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
If doing a PhD will bring no career benefits, it gets harder to submit to all of the limitations on one’s life that come with going back to a degree program. I took a break after I got my MA in a humanities field. I eventually planned to return for a PhD, but then two things happened in the intervening years: 1) I was already able to write up journal articles and successfully get them published, because in double-blind peer review all that mattered was the strength of my research and my familiarity with the literature, and no one knew or cared that I had only an MA; and 2) I got used to traveling a lot and having a very flexible schedule, because as my day job I established a remote freelancing career. Now people are interested in my research and inviting me to come back and do a PhD, but I’m not sure I can ever go back to having to wake up early in the morning, sit in a boring seminar, be pressured to take on teaching duties, and not be able to escape to a warm country in the cold winter. (That’s me, others may want e.g. more time to spend with their families.) I talk to my colleagues and get the impression that I have more time for research than they do, because anyone in a formal position is saddled with bullshit administration duties. I realize that I am lucky to be interested in a humanities field. I know that in hard sciences, you cannot meaningfully contribute to the field without access to a lab and other such infrastructure, and therefore you have to go back to a university position.
- srl 6y ago
  > I know that in hard sciences, you cannot meaningfully contribute to the field without access to a lab and other such infrastructure Well, that's not quite true I guess, because in most areas of math, or theoretical physics, you certainly don't need much beyond pen, paper, and (usually) a reasonable computer. In physics, I suspect the value of collaboration is a major effect keeping research bound to the universities and national labs. Single-author papers are quite rare. The big experimental groups infamously have 100- or 1000-author papers, but even in theory, a 10-author paper is no longer particularly surprising. I don't know of any (halfway-reputable) independent researchers in theoretical physics, though. I'm not sure if the above reason justifies that. The more important thing may be that's it's just impossible to get funding without a university/lab appointment. Actually --- that's a good question. Where does your income for your lovely warm-weather travel come from? Is somebody paying you for research, outside of the strictures of universities?
abdullahkhalids 6y ago
When I went to submit a physical copy of my PhD thesis to the relevant office, the person in front of me was an old lady, at least in her 70s or even her 80s. We had an interesting conversation. She had completed a PhD in Greek literature, I think. Self-funded. Taken the standard time. She was sorry about all the domestic responsibilities she had put on her husband. She had, with her, a younger friend (a lady probably late 50s, early 60s) to help her with computers :D Made me feel very differently about all the hard work I had done. Very inspiring and uplifting. She said, she did it because she was bored and wanted to go beyond her two Masters degrees.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  This suggests all kinds of interesting questions about the point of university. For undergrads it's clearly a combination of finishing school, networking hothouse, and social club, with some education thrown in. For postgrads, it's a long-shot chance at tenure (extremely unlikely unless you're the product of an Ivy, but it's nice to dream) and perhaps some improved job prospects. (Also unlikely, but not as much.) For universities, it's a cash grab. First they get the fees, then they get the bequests. Also, some education is thrown in. Considering the age/wealth profile is now heavily skewed to the over-50s, it would make sense for universities to cater more for mature students. Remaking university culture as life-long access rather than here-come-the-teens would break a lot of cultural expectations - but might also be the only way to keep the university model alive over the medium term.
  - mbeex 6y ago
    > For undergrads it's clearly a combination of finishing school, networking hothouse, and social club, with some education thrown in. Never was it for me, and I'm certainly not alone.
    - mathieuh 6y ago
      Yeah for me it was just the easiest way to get a job. Didn't really ever go to lectures, was in the students' union maybe twice, got a flatshare in final year with people I had met doing my year's industrial placement.
atemerev 6y ago
This should be more commonplace. I have just applied for a PhD program in 37, and got some strange looks and questions. Hope I’ll pass. :)
- pottertheotter 6y ago
  Don't let anyone get to you! I recently finished my PhD at the same age. The late Clayton Christensen[1] was one of the most accomplished business professors and I believe he started his PhD at age 37. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Christensen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Christensen
- jccalhoun 6y ago
  On some of the academic subreddits, one of the semi-frequently occurring posts is "am I too old to go to grad school?" and inevitably the post is from someone who is under 30. It always drives me crazy that people think any age is too late to start a career in a non-physically demanding field.
WalterBright 6y ago
After my uncle retired, he enrolled in a graduate program in vulcanology. Why? Because he was always interested in volcanos! My grandfather was a vulcanologist, too. He worked on proving the continental drift theory.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Continental drift would have been accepted sooner if the oceanic magnetic maps had been declassified earlier. (a case of parallel construction affecting science: the data were only declassified after they covered enough of the sea basins that it was no longer obvious what the common boomer cruise routes were)
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    He did it by setting up measuring stations in Iceland. WW2 intervened and he was not able to go back to get the results.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      I hear the sports bettors are jonesing so hard they're even betting on what will be a dictionary's "word of the year". If they're that patient, maybe we should offer some continental plate racing? (my local mountains are actually rebounding up faster from the last glaciation than they are being eroded down by weathering — kind of the orogeny version of Wirth's Law)
KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
A lot of people have a romantic perspective on grad school, similarly to how the flower children of the 60s viewed travel to India. You turn on, tune in, drop out, and go to academia to become enlightened. It's not all it's cracked up to be. People are people wherever you go, and you'll see the same shit in academia that you encounter outside, except you're paid much less (if you get paid at all). There is one big plus, and that is that you're not the only one who bought into academia's narrative of enlightenment, so you're likely to get more respect from your peers and family if you go to academia than if you do meaningless stuff like sell ads for Google.
- mjburgess 6y ago
  I'm a bit more sceptical/cynical even, about the people PhD programmes typically attract. Very low-EQ, highly competitive, highly self-regarding. In my experience PhD departments are worse that top-tier software engineering groups, as PhDs tend to be depressed and underappreciated in addition. I think the whole model is one big mental health meat grinder, and the meat going in is quite bitter in the first place.
  - steev 6y ago
    God forbid anyone pursues higher education because they want to become a better researcher. I would suggest you spend some time thinking about your EQ rather than spending time on the internet posting nonsense generalizations about entire classes of people.
    - mjburgess 6y ago
      I can only speak from my experience; and it seems perfectly reasonable for me to do so. I think the motivation "to be a better researcher" is quite narcissistic (in a mild sense) in the first place. It's what produces such contention in similar software engineering groups. There is no conflict between this motivation and my description of the psychology of people that tend to persue PhDs.
      - 6y ago
gbronner 6y ago
I see little difference between using scarce university resources to produce human capital that will not be used and art. I'm sure the author enjoyed it, but it, but it doesn't seem that she will use her new educational skills at all. To the extent that her professors could have done something else, she sucked up a lot of resources that could have been used lot productively. This will become a bigger issue going forward....
- Rochus 6y ago
  Well, then we should start thinking about focusing on the study areas which indeed produce human capital. There are still far too many academic studies today that bring little or no benefit to the economy, where graduates hardly find jobs and instead increase social costs. As long as we don't do that, it doesn't matter if someone is still studying and doing a doctorate at 66. At least then they will already have an old-age pension and will not have to draw unemployment benefit or social assistance.
  - bananamerica 6y ago
    YSK that there are numerous ways to contribute to society beyond formal work to acquire fungible currency.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      If you want to make a contribution to the development of vaccines or remedies, or to medical care, then you simply need to study accordingly. I agree with you that it is an undesirable development that nowadays everybody wants to study, no matter what, or preferably something where you can get a bachelor's degree with little effort. On the other hand, there is an increasing lack of qualified, experienced professionals, such as those needed in nursing or in the construction industry. If I need someone to repair my heating system today, I have to wait a long time and pay a lot. And through my taxes I pay at the same time to the many unemployed historians and social scientists.
      - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
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coldcode 6y ago
I was accepted into a PhD program in Chemistry in the early 80's but decided to work as a programmer instead (and still do); I then thought about getting a PhD in Computer Science in the early 00's but a professor talked me out of it since it appeared that most of the jobs were in academia (right before Google started hiring them in droves). Oh well, two chances and no dice.
drewmassey 6y ago
I earned a PhD in the humanities before going into tech. I loved it, and it was a tough slog to make the pivot. I know there is a lot of advice encouraging folks to “optimize their human capital” but I spent my 20s full time making my mind a great place to live in, and OP is an inspiration for doing the same at any age.
ngcc_hk 6y ago
It is good for him to find the journey he liked.
xmksv 6y ago
Amazing! It's never too late.
johnminter 6y ago
I think the key to a good exerience obtaining a Ph.D. is the choice of a good advisor. My advisor explained that the process of getting the degree was to teach us to find important problems and learn what we needed to solve them. Typically, that involved collaboration. He also stressed that it was a doctorate in Philosophy even though our department was in the Physical Sciences and Engineering School. That advice served me well as a scientist in a corporate materials analysis group. Now that I am retired, I still find challenging projects to work on, mainly helping to improve open source electron microanalysis software.
- edge17 6y ago
  Are there also open source electron microscope designs?
  - johnminter 6y ago
    Not to my knowlege.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
My wife, with two BS degrees and a MS from Stanford, is currently enrolled as undergrad with an Archaeology major. Why? Insurance. She pays 1/5 what the open market would cost, even factoring in the tuition and fees. Because she at 60 is grouped with young healthy people. The college is not upset about this. In fact they have a whole program and an advisor to assist older folks in negotiating the paperwork.
- nvusuvu 6y ago
  That's incredible!
- arkades 6y ago
  What university is this where tuition plus school-based insurance is < 20% of open market insurance?
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    She only takes 1 class to qualify. Its the state school. Her insurance was otherwise ~ $2000/month. Her tuition is only that, and is good for half a year. The student insurance cost is small and annual.
Priem19 6y ago
Added this to my forum where I collect educational sources and similar inspirational late bloomer examples: https://philomath.boards.net/thread/22/persistence-great-substitute-talent-martin https://philomath.boards.net/thread/22/persistence-great-sub...
dghughes 6y ago
And here I thought I was doing well going to college in my 40s. I'm finding it hard to get recognized at all ghosted interviews or no response at all. It seems being new to IT (career-wise) is not for anyone over age 25.
- ntwalker 6y ago
  Perhaps that could be a regional thing? The things I hear about the Bay Area for instance make it sound like another planet. A friend of mine (27) just got IT certifications (never went to college) and he has a cool new job in IT support, working on becoming a sysadmin. But either way, keep trying!
igammarays 6y ago
Ugh, first world problems. I'm currently considering a Ph.D at age 26, but this kind of story fills me with a strange loathing and determination not to fall into this trap when I get older. If, at 50, I still need to go to an "academic counsellor" who asks me "what I enjoyed as a child", then I'll consider myself a failure. I don't think self-enjoyment is a legitimate purpose in life. Thus if, at age 50, I'm still wondering "what I enjoy", I'll consider myself a zombie. By that age I want to be dedicated to something outside of myself, some revolutionary new thought, or the advancement of some great cause, even religion or God, or even just the well-being of my kids and grandkids. Even a short hedonistic life of partying I consider to be a a greater success than this kind of zombie-like continuation of academia with no external goal.
- anyanswers 6y ago
  weird. isn't self discovery a worthwhile goal?
unemphysbro 6y ago
I enjoyed my PhD. The challenge of coming up with ideas, writing proposals for compute resources or funding, and trying to deliver on the research was fun. Most of my PhD was industry funded so there was potential for product integration. The added bonus is that you're around really smart and motivated people in a variety of disciplines. I was exposed to the hard problems in Finance, Accounting, and Economics hung out with opera singers, stage directors and novelists. The years I didn't have funding were pretty miserable. 40-60 hours in the lab plus 20 hours teaching per week for $23K kind of wears you down.

300 points by sohkamyung 6y ago

My grandmother spent the last several years of her life living off a fixed income happily occupied with continuing education classes at the local state university. It seemed like a pretty appealing lifestyle to me. It occurred to me that you might even mainstream the idea. Instead of building retirement communities around golf courses, build them around universities. If I'm not mistaken, I think I've seen small advertisements for such things in the back pages of the New Yorker. Given the costs of modern universities, and the current identity crisis they're facing, this might be a new business model for them, especially if wealthy foreign students are to no longer be admitted to the country. At the same time, I'm reminded of an exchange from an episode of This American Life about how in some parts of the country state disability payments have become a de facto retirement and welfare system: Ethel Thomas: You asked me a while back what would be the perfect job. I thought about it, and I said that the perfect job, it would be like I would sit at a desk like the Social Security people, and just weed out all the ones that come in and file for disability. Chana Joffe-Walt: At first, I thought Ethel's dream job was to be the lady at Social Security, because she thought she'd be good at weeding out the cheaters. But no. After a confusing back and forth, it turned out Ethel wanted this woman's job because she gets to sit. That's it. And when I asked her, OK, but why that lady? Why not any other job where you get to sit? Ethel said she could not think of a single other job where you get to sit all day. She said she'd never seen one. I brushed this off in the moment. I was getting in my car. It was getting late. And also, it just did not seem possible to me that there would be a place in America today where someone could go her whole working life without any exposure to jobs where you get to sit, until she applied for disability and saw a woman who gets to sit all day. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/490/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/490/transcript

whatshisface 6y ago
That makes a lot of sense actually, because the reason we really need (as in need, not just want) retirement and welfare payments, are because some people are either not able to work or no longer able to work.
dugmartin 6y ago
My wife's great uncle (a retired college president) lives in a Kendall community near Dartmouth, his old alma mater. Kendall has a focus on senior learning: https://www.kendal.org/about-kendal/kendal-values/lifelong-learning-for-seniors/ https://www.kendal.org/about-kendal/kendal-values/lifelong-l...
owenversteeg 6y ago
Oh, that is a really fascinating episode of This American Life. Thanks for sharing! I would highly recommend anyone take a look at it - it explains where people go and what happens when those linchpin factories in a small town close down, and the growth of disability programs.

rfrey 6y ago

I spent my 20s trying to get rich enough to become a professional student. My 30s too. Its looking like this is also how I'll spend my 50s, which are approaching like a steam train. Bring on the MIT Golden Years Home for the Intellectually Dissatisfied.

discordance 6y ago
Did you end up becoming a professional student? - If so, how's that going?
- rfrey 6y ago
  Nope, still working - just incorporated my latest startup. 7th time the charm?
  - dorchadas 6y ago
    I wish you the best of luck. This is, quite honestly, the main reason why I wish to attain financial independence. I really would love to be a professional student, and my interests are all over the place, so I could keep it up for sure.
garmaine 6y ago
Try a different country where higher education is nearly free (by comparison)?
- cortesoft 6y ago
  Most countries don't let random foreign students come study for free. You either have to be really good or pay your way.
  - garmaine 6y ago
    There are some that do, like Slovakia.

dragonsh 6y ago

Very inspiring to highlight education and learning is lifelong. Ph.D. even though symbolism (not really needed if only aim is knowledge assimilation and creation through learning), will serve as a big boost in confidence for middle age workers, who think there aren’t enough opportunities for them. Also Ph.D. gives chances to work with younger people keeping middle and older generations more active and alive. I hope to continue learning in my middle and old age like the post, not sure of Ph.D. though. But may consider if it opens a way for me to work alongside young researchers can learn new things from them and feel alive.

BeetleB 6y ago
I think we should be careful not to conflate the pursuit of knowledge with acquiring a PhD. The latter is a very constrained and narrow way to do it, and can easily disappoint. As I get older, the (non-financial) value of the PhD keeps diminishing in my eyes, whereas the pursuit of knowledge hasn't. As I have less time on Earth, I want to optimize my time, and much of PhD work is orthogonal to my goals of gaining knowledge. A PhD will force you to spend years on an extremely narrow topic (of course, acquiring some breadth along the way). When you're older, that time is precious. It better be a problem you really are passionate about. Consider: 1. You likely will work on your advisor's research ideas and not your own. 2. You will have to fulfill several steps tied to the culture of academia, and none of these is needed to acquire knowledge. But tradition is tradition, and you have to do it. 3. There can be a lot of politics involved - also orthogonal to acquiring knowledge, but you will have to put up with them, play them, and suffer because of them. 4. Professors will often work you harder than you'll want at an older age. Their rationale is often a variant of "Well, if you want a career in research/academia, this is the workload you will have to deal with". But a 60+ year old usually has very different goals. Of course, I have seen plenty of professors who are sympathetic to such people. Overall, if you're at an older age, don't do it unless you already have a research problem you really want to work on, and can find a sympathetic advisor who cares more about you than their own careers. Disclaimer: My view on this topic is a bit biased. I spent most of a decade in grad school (at a younger age) but eventually quit the PhD program. I was at the point where I felt I had attained most of the benefits of a PhD except that final paper (acquired a lot of knowledge, published in journal, lots of personal development/introspection, gained much from being around the intellectual environment, etc). I quit because my work was not good enough to get my dream research jobs (in academia or industry), and spending the 2 or so more years fulfilling my advisor's requirements knowing it would not lead me to my dream jobs was just pointless. Sure - I could get a postdoc and do enough good work there to land my dream job, but I decided it wasn't worth the gamble. I often fantasize about becoming financially independent and going back to university and hopefully do some research (in a different discipline this time). I do miss the intellectual discussions, etc. But while the studying and research problem aspect appeal to me, I really don't have the patience to put up with all the negatives I listed above. And I didn't even get into how in some disciplines (or sub-disciplines), journal publications are a racket (with both the publisher and academia being guilty parties). If I ever did anything interesting and novel enough, I'd likely write it up in a blog post or at most post to arxiv. I really don't want to participate in the current journal publishing culture. But of course, kudos to the person in this submission!

spsd 6y ago

You are an Inspiration to me! Thanks for sharing your story.

blastonico 6y ago

THANK YOU for sharing this. All we got these days are pandemics, deaths, protests, anger. Even HN, that I like so much with all those brilliant people sharing their great projects, is now politics and anger. I mean read about your successful victory is inspiring. Thank you.

jmole 6y ago

'Sitting at my desk, staring at environmental impact reports and grant applications on my computer screen, I began to think, “They cannot pay me enough to do this job.”' Honestly, this sounds like most PhD programs I'm familiar with.

freetime2 6y ago
I think the most important takeaway from this article is not that getting a PhD will make you happy... but rather when you start having that feeling it’s time to make a change.

slavik81 6y ago

Pierre Bézier (1910–1999) is a famous example of a late Ph.D. He was awarded his doctorate in 1974.

logicchains 6y ago
Seems he really went against the curve.

mmhsieh 6y ago

As an undergrad I had a friend in the math department who came back to school to get a PhD after some years of making enough $$ to retire on in software. He did not aspire to an academic career. He just liked math and enjoyed spending time on it. He helped us rando undergrads with our problem sets. He is one of the happiest individuals I have ever met. A PhD makes sense at any age for happiness reasons if you don't have financial obligations hanging over you.

hatmatrix 6y ago
or family obligations
- M5x7wI3CmbEem10 6y ago
  would it be better to do a PhD as soon as possible to prevent family weighing you down, or to become financially independent first?
  - hatmatrix 6y ago
    Ideally, both - but in STEM you would get a stipend that you could live off of if you had no children so if you could only do one or the other I would say the first.
  - mattbk1 6y ago
    As soon as possible.
    - M5x7wI3CmbEem10 6y ago
      well...why?
bachmeier 6y ago
> A PhD makes sense at any age for happiness reasons if you don't have financial obligations hanging over you. Conditional on actually wanting to go that deep in courses and research. Many PhD students take a couple semesters of courses (the hardest year of their life) and they quit after they realize the research they're going to be doing for at least the next few years. It's certainly not for everyone.

ipnon 6y ago

Joe Armstrong received his Ph.D. at age 52.[0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Armstrong_(programmer) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Armstrong_(programmer)

pkaye 6y ago

I seem to remember California allows those over 60 to take classes for credit without paying tuition. I believe for both the CSU and UC system. A met a few who did it when I did my education in both systems. I hope its still around.

smegger001 6y ago
when I was a college student I have to admit I resented continuing education programs. Here were thousands of people like me were racking up of thousands of dollars in debt literally mortgaging our future to pay for these classes and there were senior paying little to nothing to take classes. I still am not sure how we can justify a system where we convince impressionable minors that they need to in-debt themselves for decades and then allow seniors to take the classes free? this just seems inequitable to me.
- LeanderK 6y ago
  not an American, but I also view this very critically. In Germany the university is free, but in reality it's just hugely subsidised. I just can't justify pumping a lot of money into free (real) university education for seniors. The money is needed elsewhere. There's a huge difference between a university and other education-institutions, university-education is just such a luxury. You can take classes with highly-esteemed researchers etc. It's really unbelievable valuable, but also quite a societal investment. There should, of course, be ways for pensioners challenge their intellectual ability, but studying at a university is just way over the top I think. There must be another way. Maybe expand the adult-education-centres with special programs for seniors, I don't know. EDIT: this comment is not about getting a PhD. I would not lobby for any age-restricted subsidy for getting your PhD, since I think PhDs are producing an immense amount of benefit for society, regardless of whether they're in humanities or natural science.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    On the contrary. Seniors have paid taxes their whole lives so others can get their heavily subsidized goodies. I think it only makes sense that they have the same rights to education and other things that they have helped fund for others. Many seniors today simply did not have the opportunity to study because they had to go to work at an early age. It wasn't uncommon to be a provider at 17 or 18 in the past.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

If doing a PhD will bring no career benefits, it gets harder to submit to all of the limitations on one’s life that come with going back to a degree program. I took a break after I got my MA in a humanities field. I eventually planned to return for a PhD, but then two things happened in the intervening years: 1) I was already able to write up journal articles and successfully get them published, because in double-blind peer review all that mattered was the strength of my research and my familiarity with the literature, and no one knew or cared that I had only an MA; and 2) I got used to traveling a lot and having a very flexible schedule, because as my day job I established a remote freelancing career. Now people are interested in my research and inviting me to come back and do a PhD, but I’m not sure I can ever go back to having to wake up early in the morning, sit in a boring seminar, be pressured to take on teaching duties, and not be able to escape to a warm country in the cold winter. (That’s me, others may want e.g. more time to spend with their families.) I talk to my colleagues and get the impression that I have more time for research than they do, because anyone in a formal position is saddled with bullshit administration duties. I realize that I am lucky to be interested in a humanities field. I know that in hard sciences, you cannot meaningfully contribute to the field without access to a lab and other such infrastructure, and therefore you have to go back to a university position.

srl 6y ago
> I know that in hard sciences, you cannot meaningfully contribute to the field without access to a lab and other such infrastructure Well, that's not quite true I guess, because in most areas of math, or theoretical physics, you certainly don't need much beyond pen, paper, and (usually) a reasonable computer. In physics, I suspect the value of collaboration is a major effect keeping research bound to the universities and national labs. Single-author papers are quite rare. The big experimental groups infamously have 100- or 1000-author papers, but even in theory, a 10-author paper is no longer particularly surprising. I don't know of any (halfway-reputable) independent researchers in theoretical physics, though. I'm not sure if the above reason justifies that. The more important thing may be that's it's just impossible to get funding without a university/lab appointment. Actually --- that's a good question. Where does your income for your lovely warm-weather travel come from? Is somebody paying you for research, outside of the strictures of universities?

abdullahkhalids 6y ago

When I went to submit a physical copy of my PhD thesis to the relevant office, the person in front of me was an old lady, at least in her 70s or even her 80s. We had an interesting conversation. She had completed a PhD in Greek literature, I think. Self-funded. Taken the standard time. She was sorry about all the domestic responsibilities she had put on her husband. She had, with her, a younger friend (a lady probably late 50s, early 60s) to help her with computers :D Made me feel very differently about all the hard work I had done. Very inspiring and uplifting. She said, she did it because she was bored and wanted to go beyond her two Masters degrees.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
This suggests all kinds of interesting questions about the point of university. For undergrads it's clearly a combination of finishing school, networking hothouse, and social club, with some education thrown in. For postgrads, it's a long-shot chance at tenure (extremely unlikely unless you're the product of an Ivy, but it's nice to dream) and perhaps some improved job prospects. (Also unlikely, but not as much.) For universities, it's a cash grab. First they get the fees, then they get the bequests. Also, some education is thrown in. Considering the age/wealth profile is now heavily skewed to the over-50s, it would make sense for universities to cater more for mature students. Remaking university culture as life-long access rather than here-come-the-teens would break a lot of cultural expectations - but might also be the only way to keep the university model alive over the medium term.
- mbeex 6y ago
  > For undergrads it's clearly a combination of finishing school, networking hothouse, and social club, with some education thrown in. Never was it for me, and I'm certainly not alone.
  - mathieuh 6y ago
    Yeah for me it was just the easiest way to get a job. Didn't really ever go to lectures, was in the students' union maybe twice, got a flatshare in final year with people I had met doing my year's industrial placement.

atemerev 6y ago

This should be more commonplace. I have just applied for a PhD program in 37, and got some strange looks and questions. Hope I’ll pass. :)

pottertheotter 6y ago
Don't let anyone get to you! I recently finished my PhD at the same age. The late Clayton Christensen[1] was one of the most accomplished business professors and I believe he started his PhD at age 37. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Christensen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Christensen
jccalhoun 6y ago
On some of the academic subreddits, one of the semi-frequently occurring posts is "am I too old to go to grad school?" and inevitably the post is from someone who is under 30. It always drives me crazy that people think any age is too late to start a career in a non-physically demanding field.

WalterBright 6y ago

After my uncle retired, he enrolled in a graduate program in vulcanology. Why? Because he was always interested in volcanos! My grandfather was a vulcanologist, too. He worked on proving the continental drift theory.

082349872349872 6y ago
Continental drift would have been accepted sooner if the oceanic magnetic maps had been declassified earlier. (a case of parallel construction affecting science: the data were only declassified after they covered enough of the sea basins that it was no longer obvious what the common boomer cruise routes were)
- WalterBright 6y ago
  He did it by setting up measuring stations in Iceland. WW2 intervened and he was not able to go back to get the results.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    I hear the sports bettors are jonesing so hard they're even betting on what will be a dictionary's "word of the year". If they're that patient, maybe we should offer some continental plate racing? (my local mountains are actually rebounding up faster from the last glaciation than they are being eroded down by weathering — kind of the orogeny version of Wirth's Law)

KKKKkkkk1 6y ago

A lot of people have a romantic perspective on grad school, similarly to how the flower children of the 60s viewed travel to India. You turn on, tune in, drop out, and go to academia to become enlightened. It's not all it's cracked up to be. People are people wherever you go, and you'll see the same shit in academia that you encounter outside, except you're paid much less (if you get paid at all). There is one big plus, and that is that you're not the only one who bought into academia's narrative of enlightenment, so you're likely to get more respect from your peers and family if you go to academia than if you do meaningless stuff like sell ads for Google.

mjburgess 6y ago
I'm a bit more sceptical/cynical even, about the people PhD programmes typically attract. Very low-EQ, highly competitive, highly self-regarding. In my experience PhD departments are worse that top-tier software engineering groups, as PhDs tend to be depressed and underappreciated in addition. I think the whole model is one big mental health meat grinder, and the meat going in is quite bitter in the first place.
- steev 6y ago
  God forbid anyone pursues higher education because they want to become a better researcher. I would suggest you spend some time thinking about your EQ rather than spending time on the internet posting nonsense generalizations about entire classes of people.
  - mjburgess 6y ago
    I can only speak from my experience; and it seems perfectly reasonable for me to do so. I think the motivation "to be a better researcher" is quite narcissistic (in a mild sense) in the first place. It's what produces such contention in similar software engineering groups. There is no conflict between this motivation and my description of the psychology of people that tend to persue PhDs.
    - 6y ago

gbronner 6y ago

I see little difference between using scarce university resources to produce human capital that will not be used and art. I'm sure the author enjoyed it, but it, but it doesn't seem that she will use her new educational skills at all. To the extent that her professors could have done something else, she sucked up a lot of resources that could have been used lot productively. This will become a bigger issue going forward....

Rochus 6y ago
Well, then we should start thinking about focusing on the study areas which indeed produce human capital. There are still far too many academic studies today that bring little or no benefit to the economy, where graduates hardly find jobs and instead increase social costs. As long as we don't do that, it doesn't matter if someone is still studying and doing a doctorate at 66. At least then they will already have an old-age pension and will not have to draw unemployment benefit or social assistance.
- bananamerica 6y ago
  YSK that there are numerous ways to contribute to society beyond formal work to acquire fungible currency.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    If you want to make a contribution to the development of vaccines or remedies, or to medical care, then you simply need to study accordingly. I agree with you that it is an undesirable development that nowadays everybody wants to study, no matter what, or preferably something where you can get a bachelor's degree with little effort. On the other hand, there is an increasing lack of qualified, experienced professionals, such as those needed in nursing or in the construction industry. If I need someone to repair my heating system today, I have to wait a long time and pay a lot. And through my taxes I pay at the same time to the many unemployed historians and social scientists.
    - 6y ago

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coldcode 6y ago

I was accepted into a PhD program in Chemistry in the early 80's but decided to work as a programmer instead (and still do); I then thought about getting a PhD in Computer Science in the early 00's but a professor talked me out of it since it appeared that most of the jobs were in academia (right before Google started hiring them in droves). Oh well, two chances and no dice.

drewmassey 6y ago

I earned a PhD in the humanities before going into tech. I loved it, and it was a tough slog to make the pivot. I know there is a lot of advice encouraging folks to “optimize their human capital” but I spent my 20s full time making my mind a great place to live in, and OP is an inspiration for doing the same at any age.

ngcc_hk 6y ago

It is good for him to find the journey he liked.

xmksv 6y ago

Amazing! It's never too late.

johnminter 6y ago

I think the key to a good exerience obtaining a Ph.D. is the choice of a good advisor. My advisor explained that the process of getting the degree was to teach us to find important problems and learn what we needed to solve them. Typically, that involved collaboration. He also stressed that it was a doctorate in Philosophy even though our department was in the Physical Sciences and Engineering School. That advice served me well as a scientist in a corporate materials analysis group. Now that I am retired, I still find challenging projects to work on, mainly helping to improve open source electron microanalysis software.

edge17 6y ago
Are there also open source electron microscope designs?
- johnminter 6y ago
  Not to my knowlege.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

My wife, with two BS degrees and a MS from Stanford, is currently enrolled as undergrad with an Archaeology major. Why? Insurance. She pays 1/5 what the open market would cost, even factoring in the tuition and fees. Because she at 60 is grouped with young healthy people. The college is not upset about this. In fact they have a whole program and an advisor to assist older folks in negotiating the paperwork.

nvusuvu 6y ago
That's incredible!
arkades 6y ago
What university is this where tuition plus school-based insurance is < 20% of open market insurance?
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  She only takes 1 class to qualify. Its the state school. Her insurance was otherwise ~ $2000/month. Her tuition is only that, and is good for half a year. The student insurance cost is small and annual.

Priem19 6y ago

Added this to my forum where I collect educational sources and similar inspirational late bloomer examples: https://philomath.boards.net/thread/22/persistence-great-substitute-talent-martin https://philomath.boards.net/thread/22/persistence-great-sub...

dghughes 6y ago

And here I thought I was doing well going to college in my 40s. I'm finding it hard to get recognized at all ghosted interviews or no response at all. It seems being new to IT (career-wise) is not for anyone over age 25.

ntwalker 6y ago
Perhaps that could be a regional thing? The things I hear about the Bay Area for instance make it sound like another planet. A friend of mine (27) just got IT certifications (never went to college) and he has a cool new job in IT support, working on becoming a sysadmin. But either way, keep trying!

igammarays 6y ago

Ugh, first world problems. I'm currently considering a Ph.D at age 26, but this kind of story fills me with a strange loathing and determination not to fall into this trap when I get older. If, at 50, I still need to go to an "academic counsellor" who asks me "what I enjoyed as a child", then I'll consider myself a failure. I don't think self-enjoyment is a legitimate purpose in life. Thus if, at age 50, I'm still wondering "what I enjoy", I'll consider myself a zombie. By that age I want to be dedicated to something outside of myself, some revolutionary new thought, or the advancement of some great cause, even religion or God, or even just the well-being of my kids and grandkids. Even a short hedonistic life of partying I consider to be a a greater success than this kind of zombie-like continuation of academia with no external goal.

anyanswers 6y ago
weird. isn't self discovery a worthwhile goal?

unemphysbro 6y ago

I enjoyed my PhD. The challenge of coming up with ideas, writing proposals for compute resources or funding, and trying to deliver on the research was fun. Most of my PhD was industry funded so there was potential for product integration. The added bonus is that you're around really smart and motivated people in a variety of disciplines. I was exposed to the hard problems in Finance, Accounting, and Economics hung out with opera singers, stage directors and novelists. The years I didn't have funding were pretty miserable. 40-60 hours in the lab plus 20 hours teaching per week for $23K kind of wears you down.