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This reminds me of my favorite conspiracy theory, The Lost Cosmonauts, which proposes that Yuri Gagarin was the first man to survive space travel. http://en.wi

by rriepe 16y ago

This reminds me of my favorite conspiracy theory, The Lost Cosmonauts, which proposes that Yuri Gagarin was the first man to survive space travel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cosmonauts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cosmonauts

earl 16y ago
I was fortunate enough to visit Star City while in Russia in 2004 or so. There is a statue of Yuri Gagarin there, and according to an engineer at the facility, it is a popular place to get married. I don't have a hard time believing that either the USSR or the USA would have hidden space deaths if they or we could in order to build a national mythology.
- archgoon 16y ago
  It would have required both sides to agree to that mythology. As the article points out, we knew when things went wrong with them (via the NSA), and chances are sooner or later they'd find out when things went wrong with us (via the KGB). It would have required not only secrecy on their half, but secrecy on our half.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    I don't find it that hard to believe that it was bilateral. At first it gives too much up to show how much detail one knows about the other side. Then one doesn't want to announce your own deaths because the other side hasn't and you don't want to appear to be losing/weaker/less capable. If you leak the deaths on the other side then they'll leak yours (like a sort of mutually assured destruction) and possibly cause an end to space exploration programmes - neither side that knows enough wants to do that surely? tl;dr seems reasonable to me that both sides may have had more deaths they all kept secret about
  - hammock 16y ago
    Prisoner's dilemma. Easily solved by cooperation.
- iuguy 16y ago
  To be fair this would've worked for the US military up to the Mercury program or the very early Vostok program. We know that the USSR did indeed hide deaths[1]. [1] - http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/1302/lost_in_space.html http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/1302/lost_in_s...
  - hernan7 16y ago
    "we know" ... "Fortean Times" ... does not compute
ilovecomputers 16y ago
That reminds me of the first episode of Skeptoid I listened to: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4115 http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4115
presidentender 16y ago
There was a post somewhere - I can't find it now - which stated that the Soviets were to send a cosmonaut to Mars, knowing full well he'd just wander around and die with no way to come back. They had volunteers. Then the Berlin wall fell and it ceased to be an important pursuit to conquer the stars.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- nikster 16y ago
  Doubtful. Wouldn't be much of an achievement to be able to say: "Look, we put a man on the Mars and left him to die there", now would it?
  - Dylan16807 16y ago
    I think it would be quite an accomplishment.
    - fedd 16y ago
      thank god our (Russian) leaders of that times didnt think the same :)
- rsaarelm 16y ago
  http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_shchigry_ru_in_1932_i_worked_as_a/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_sh... This Reddit IAmA has the poster claiming his grandfather was pretty deeply involved in the plan. Relevant subthread: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_shchigry_ru_in_1932_i_worked_as_a/c1aw29e http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_sh...
- nradov 16y ago
  Encyclopedia Astronautica has the full list of Russian/Soviet Mars expedition concepts. http://www.astronautix.com/fam/rustions.htm http://www.astronautix.com/fam/rustions.htm They had ideas to do a lot of things related to Mars but never even came close to developing flyable spacecraft.
huhtenberg 16y ago
FWIW there is also a popular conspiracy theory that Korolev - the man behind Soviet space program - lost his son that way. His whole life was and partially still is classified so there is no way to tell even if he had a son to begin with.
exDM69 16y ago
I've also read about the phantom cosmonauts before. These stories send a chill down my spine. There are rumors that Vladimir Ilyushin, son of the airplane designer Ilyushin, was actually the first person to survive a space flight, but something went wrong in the landing (some say he landed in China which caused a political controversy). Some even go as far as saying that Yuri Gagarin knew of this and was killed because he knew too much. Go and figure. The truth will probably never be uncovered. If the soviets had archives of what really happened, they might be lost and/or destroyed. Wikipedia is pretty good starting point if you want to read about this. Put David Bowie's "Space Oddity" on the background with repeat.

by rriepe 16y ago

earl 16y ago

I was fortunate enough to visit Star City while in Russia in 2004 or so. There is a statue of Yuri Gagarin there, and according to an engineer at the facility, it is a popular place to get married. I don't have a hard time believing that either the USSR or the USA would have hidden space deaths if they or we could in order to build a national mythology.

archgoon 16y ago
It would have required both sides to agree to that mythology. As the article points out, we knew when things went wrong with them (via the NSA), and chances are sooner or later they'd find out when things went wrong with us (via the KGB). It would have required not only secrecy on their half, but secrecy on our half.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  I don't find it that hard to believe that it was bilateral. At first it gives too much up to show how much detail one knows about the other side. Then one doesn't want to announce your own deaths because the other side hasn't and you don't want to appear to be losing/weaker/less capable. If you leak the deaths on the other side then they'll leak yours (like a sort of mutually assured destruction) and possibly cause an end to space exploration programmes - neither side that knows enough wants to do that surely? tl;dr seems reasonable to me that both sides may have had more deaths they all kept secret about
- hammock 16y ago
  Prisoner's dilemma. Easily solved by cooperation.
iuguy 16y ago
To be fair this would've worked for the US military up to the Mercury program or the very early Vostok program. We know that the USSR did indeed hide deaths[1]. [1] - http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/1302/lost_in_space.html http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/1302/lost_in_s...
- hernan7 16y ago
  "we know" ... "Fortean Times" ... does not compute

ilovecomputers 16y ago

That reminds me of the first episode of Skeptoid I listened to: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4115 http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4115

presidentender 16y ago

There was a post somewhere - I can't find it now - which stated that the Soviets were to send a cosmonaut to Mars, knowing full well he'd just wander around and die with no way to come back. They had volunteers. Then the Berlin wall fell and it ceased to be an important pursuit to conquer the stars.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
nikster 16y ago
Doubtful. Wouldn't be much of an achievement to be able to say: "Look, we put a man on the Mars and left him to die there", now would it?
- Dylan16807 16y ago
  I think it would be quite an accomplishment.
  - fedd 16y ago
    thank god our (Russian) leaders of that times didnt think the same :)
rsaarelm 16y ago
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_shchigry_ru_in_1932_i_worked_as_a/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_sh... This Reddit IAmA has the poster claiming his grandfather was pretty deeply involved in the plan. Relevant subthread: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_shchigry_ru_in_1932_i_worked_as_a/c1aw29e http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_sh...
nradov 16y ago
Encyclopedia Astronautica has the full list of Russian/Soviet Mars expedition concepts. http://www.astronautix.com/fam/rustions.htm http://www.astronautix.com/fam/rustions.htm They had ideas to do a lot of things related to Mars but never even came close to developing flyable spacecraft.

huhtenberg 16y ago

FWIW there is also a popular conspiracy theory that Korolev - the man behind Soviet space program - lost his son that way. His whole life was and partially still is classified so there is no way to tell even if he had a son to begin with.

exDM69 16y ago

I've also read about the phantom cosmonauts before. These stories send a chill down my spine. There are rumors that Vladimir Ilyushin, son of the airplane designer Ilyushin, was actually the first person to survive a space flight, but something went wrong in the landing (some say he landed in China which caused a political controversy). Some even go as far as saying that Yuri Gagarin knew of this and was killed because he knew too much. Go and figure. The truth will probably never be uncovered. If the soviets had archives of what really happened, they might be lost and/or destroyed. Wikipedia is pretty good starting point if you want to read about this. Put David Bowie's "Space Oddity" on the background with repeat.